Physics is the science that deals mainly with matter and its motion, as well as space and time — it's the science that deals with concepts such as force, energy, mass, and charge.
Because physics is an experimental science, and deals with the 'natural' world, does it have much 'play' in the supernatural world and events or powers beyond nature?
Please state clearly why you believe your comment.
http://www.physics.org/
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/
What do you mean beyond nature? These are all forces of nature.The forces of magic.It is al the same thing.Just documented differently.
Indeed physics is a important part in the supernatural. For example look at the intruments used when ghost hunting, a lot of them relay on physics. And I beleive that they have proved that these intruments work in finding supernatural/paranormal phenonoma.
Oceanne~
I meant that they cannot be explained by the laws of the natural world
I understand Bloodlife. But it is my feeling that just because we cannot explain them now,if ever,they are still natural forces.
Magic can be a natral force but it also can not be explained through physics
Exactly.And what Im saying is that even tho this is the case,it doesnt change the fact hat they still a natural components of the Cosmos.
Basically what is now scientificly proven and enshrined in physics was once seen supernatural, like lightning. So quite possibly one day what we consider supernatural will be seen as natural.
I agree with Marioch, what is considered supernatural now, is just those things we have yet to fully understand. No doubt as out knowledge of physics, chemistry etc grows we will gain more answers and no longer think everything 'unexplained' is supernatural. For example, comets....centuries ago they were consider an evil omen or a sign from god, now we know better. Hopefully as the years progress, the answers will come as easily as that...or maybe not, but we will get there, it just takes time like children learning how to walk.
The motion of the planets and stars was an unfathomable supernatural phenomena in ancient times. Now we can explain and understand this using the tools of modern pysics and mathmatics.
If serious scientific study of what is now thought of as "supernatural phenomena" is conducted, I have no doubt that mathatical formulae will be developed by physicist to understand how the energy is manipulated and transformed.
Self quote:"Exactly.And what Im saying is that even tho this is the case,it doesnt change the fact hat they still a natural components of the Cosmos."
What do you mean maybe one day it will be seen as such...according to what I said,it already is...and Im not the only one.It is already a solid belief system.
I hear that when they split an atom, it did not act in accordance to physical laws. Thus we have quantum physics.
They say that the real war is when Pavlov's dog vs. Shroedingers cat.
You see Pavlov had a dog that was conditioned. If he did one thing the dog reacted to him everytime the same way. Predictable. (Physics as we know them. )
but Schroedinger had a cat.
He would poison the cat, and what the people participating in the experiment believed the outcome would be affected the outcome. (representing quantum physics. ) Sometimes the cat died, and sometimes the cat lived.
So in Quantum physics lies magic~ the magicians will effecting the Universe.
The original question makes no sense. Not for a physicist anyway...
Either we deal with the chain of proof (ie. hypothesis, theory, experiment) then it's physics (yes, even it smells like chemistry) or we deal in believing without proof, and that's religion.
Please note that there's no such thing as proving a belief or believing a theory ...
Please do not mix behaviourism and probability. And Schroedinger never poisoned a cat.
Yeah, I think it does play a role in the supernatural..If something exists, it has to have physics in it somewhere...
But we can't base EVERYTHING off of the laws of physics. Anything is possible. I think it would hinder us to dismiss something if it conflicted with the laws of physics.
Surely would hinder you. Especially since there are no laws of physics. The existence of those so-called laws is a fiction of and for the non-scientific mind.
Going to bed now. Good night.
Gassing is poisoning :
In the late 1920s the Austrian physicist Erwin Schroedinger came up with an ingenious thought experiment. His proposed experiment was to see if you can kill a cat without looking at it and without the ASPCA [1] running you down like those crazed mobs in the bad horror movies. Just kidding; actually his experiment was to prove that the field of Quantum Mechanics, which he himself had helped to pioneer, was in fact completely ludicrous. He was like the Cheshire Cat of the physics world: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." (Except he didn't smile constantly and couldn't disappear.)
The experiment consisted of placing three things in a sealed box: a cat, a vial of poisonous gas, and a radioactive mineral. The experiment is set up so that two conditions are true:
if the radioactive mineral decays it will release the gas in some way and thus kill the cat, and
there is a 50/50 chance of the mineral decaying in the limited time the experiment takes up.
According to the Schroedinger Wave Form Equation (developed by none other than Spiro Agnew, um, that is, Erwin Schroedinger) and the theories that go along with it, you can not determine what will happen, only the probability of a certain event occurring. Strangely, this event does not actually happen until you observe it. Let's say you shoot one photon at a photographic plate divided into two regions. There is a 50% chance of it hitting section A, and a 50% chance of it hitting section B. Until you develop and look at the plate, these are the probabilities, and both exist at the same time.
When you look at the plate, one of two things happen, depending on what school of Quantum Physics you belong to. There is the Copenhagen Interpretation (so named because that was Einstein's brand of chewing tobacco), which states that when you look at the plate, the wave form will "collapse" and the probability of the photon hitting section A will "jump" to one, while the probability of the photon hitting section B goes to zero. There is also the Many Worlds Interpretation. Here, when you look at the plate, the universe splits into two parallel universes, one where the photon hits A and one where it hits B. The Many Worlds Interpretation is the basis for the popular television show "Melrose Place" (or is it 90210?).
Because the wave form collapses or the universe splits when the system is observed, not when the event occurs, you can not tell whether the cat is alive or dead before you look in the box. Therefore, this deceptively complex cat manages to be both alive and dead at the same time, until you actually look in the box. This defies all common logic and obviously must be wrong. This is why Schroedinger created this paradox: to prove how stupid our explanations for the sub-atomic realm seem, let alone our explanations for the normal realm!
Link : http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/8R56.html
Space, time, and matter are intrinsic parts of evrything, the supernatural as well as the natural.
There are many things in this world which cannot be explained by natural science or any type of typical explanation.
So which part of the sentence: "Schroedinger never poisoned a cat" is false?
I consider implying that old Erwin did that to be called slandering.
Ever tried to understand the difference between a "thought experiment" and the actual deed?
This famous "experiment" was Schroedinger's attempt to explain the theory to colleagues and students. So it was more in the line of demonstration then experiment actually.
From a professional point of view I have to resent that "dog vs cat" picture as it was presented above.
Even (;-})if the "knowledge" behind it seems to be "google"-acquired....
Interesting question - my wife is a biology lecturere and despises much of the higher end of physics as being merely hypothesis and not "real" science
WRT the supernatural world - I think much of what we see as "supernatural" could just as equally be described as "not yet covered by canonical science" so yes I think physics can and will cover the supernatural world, just not yet
Excellent arguements Oceanne! I must agree in that the supernatural IS natural. 100% Agreed.
In my opinion, everything, be it natural or supernatural, is all part of the world of physics. So what we consider supernatural is actually still part of the physical world, just odd or strange, because it is rare or different.
Everything in nature has an equal and opposite force to control it, otherwise we'd be living (if you could call it that) in a 'soup' of matter.
Some call this other force 'Dark Matter'. We aren't sure it even exists at this point, but theorists postulate to its existence.
To control that which controls is a really fascinating idea, which offers a whole new range of abilities which to the general public would seem supernatural.
The supernatural is a realm that just hasn't been explained by the natural sciences.
What was considered heresy or supersition a few hundred years ago (the solar system) is now considered everyday science.
I also like to think the ancients had an intuitive approach to nature. The druids and Celts had a right approach to adding festivals and rituals to the seasons and crossquarter days as benchmarks for planting and harvesting. They also understood to some degree the affects of the lunar cycle on the world. Finally, they understood what is now called herbalology or natural rememdies to a great degree. In many cases, many of those herbs are the basis for modern medicines.
I think all things can evenutally be explained by science. Many things through history were thought to be supernatural but were eventually explained.
A big part of science is math. We can explain much mathimatically, but not prove it physically. Things in the area of astrophysics come to mind. We have all seen the representations of gravity that looks like a funnel, attempting to demonstrate the concept of mass bending the space around it. We can mathimatically show multiple dimensions. But, can we really comprehend a physical world in more that 3 or 4 dimensions.
We all understand a magnet. We can calculate the magnetic field strength, the forces applied by the magnets. But, if you had to, could you really explain what is going on in the space between the two items.
Science can explain some supernatural things, and eventually will be able to explain it all. I thing a bigger question is will we be able to understand the explanations.
A wise philosopher, Arthur C. Clarke one wrote three laws that apply here.
* Clarke's three laws:
1. "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."
2. "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."
3. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
yes i too agree with you and i think someday it will be proven that the supernatural is in fact natural indeed
Arunima~
that link would have a thread of its own ...and then some. I find it simply amazing.
I beleive they say that there will be more scientists/physicists in one place during that experiment since the invention of the V2
I would literally give an arm and both my legs to be there, working on that project. How amazing would it be to discover that the "shadow men" that many people see are actually "shadows" of people from another dimension?
Wow, that link has the potentialy to unleash a whole new spectrum of questions for us to explore not to mention, the experiments they are doing could very well revolutionize our whole concept of space/time as we know it today.
All I can say,is its about time it went beyond just a few peeps.
Very true Oceanne, we defintley need more fresh topics around here. I'm working on one now but still researching.
There are so many areas of science in general that are still being worked on, it really is all about 'time'.
As for fresh topics, there are so many helpful intelligent people on this site, but nobody seems to want to milk their knowledge.
Well not entirely sure. I don't follow up on Science at all, but I do know they are always trying to prove something right or wrong.
I know one thing that happens to me Bloodlife,Im not the smartest apple,but thats besides the point..It is pretty frustrating when a subject is disscussed,closed or whatever,then another one opens, only no one seems to have even read or paid attention what has already been presented.It gets a bit trying repeating things when no one listens anyway,or even comments on what one says.and the topic never progresses beyond the opinion stage.I dont know,maybe Im just being cranky.
Which actually makes me wonder,if the whole superstition call is maybe an excuse of some kind to let one get out of the argument ..No offense anyone! I( on both sides of the coin here.
I mean some says faith or unexplainable,it pretty much shuts that end of it all down,no one has to explain,we are just to accept it...Ya know?
I've enjoyed reading the various comments here... physics..
My father is a retired nuclear physicist. I grew up listening about fusion, fission, quarks, black holes and other theorums.
To my father, there is black and white - the only bit of grey being theories. But then, those theories are almost fact with what has been worked out.
There is no magic, no astrology, no afterlife/reincarnation in his world....
If anyone has any questions to bring up to him when I see him next week, lemme have them and I will most certainly bring them up.
theunknown you took the words out of my mind.. science will prove it self once again..
DarkestDesires~
I'd love to know if your dad has an opinion on 'magic' and whether he thinks it can be explained away scientifically
I think physics has alot to do with the supernatural. In more ways then one, like the effects of the moon on earth as in the tides and things like that they explain as physics, But it also has an effect on people as well. Not necessarily in means of turning them into werwolves or such but as in making them feel strange or having different effects on different people. Some say mood swings others say trouble with balance or thought. But all in all I think these things are relevant.
There are many physical manifistations that occur daily that cannot be explained by physics, but they exist...
I was reading some interesting responses to said question and was delighted in reading alot of the responses.
Most of it has to do with the way the human mind works, believing in the cosmos and working with it. Since the cosmos is ultimate, beyond contestation...Then it would be concluded that we do not use universal energies, since we are a part of the universe, we are those energies.
We are basically manifesting what we had all along and more importantly that we understand the fundamentals of the energies of the cosmos. Omnipresents is the point I am wanting to get across.
All energies whether natural or supernatural are the same, depending on the use. Super just means there is more to it than meets the eye of understanding.
We, as natural energies of the universe, as I have stated earlier are free to partake of said energies if we know how. The use is the key, the ultimate endevour is following the road.
I think it does, because even the super natural is part of the natural world.
Soulshroude~
Thats very interesting, so when you die what do you think happens to our energy, given that energy cannot 'die' merely change.
The energy may just dissipate. If you believe in an everlasting soul, the energy must leave the body and exist along with other energy of the same type. Heaven and hell perhaps.
1024 has a bit of the concept of the after energies. As the body dies, the energies of the body, known as the soul does return to the energies of the universe, but in a differant situation. As this is a bit like static energy, the soul as being a bit more than static, tends to lingure but still apart of the universe...Stays its path. It is a bit hard to explain in lamens terms.
In a nutshell, the soul, being part of the universe, lingures on in the "afterlife" or ethereal, but is still part of universal energies thus contributing to the other energies, since energy is energy...Not sure if this makes sense, but it is the basis of what understanding of universal energy is.
That reminds me of an experiment concerning an aircraft and its passengers. Both have static energy.............way off the point here, sorry.
But I think I get the gist of what you are saying. It makes sense to think that type of energy would go back into the cosmos as that sort of energy must have found its roots with the 'big bang' to start with.
I had an entirely unverifiable idea that made me feel tingly anyway.
So scientists are looking for another dimension that would be at right angles to our dimensions we know.
String theory also predicts that there would be several more dimensions. Retarded idea #324; suppose the energy in our bodies, and perhaps other things, that makes us mobile and do stuff, is released, not into the matter around our bodies, but travels along these "strings" into some other dimension.
Something like that...But I do get the analogy of the airplane aspect as well.
Arunima, this would be known as Leyline walking. As the astral lines and rifts excalade within certain parameters, regardless of the right angle theory, even though this angle is deliberatly placed. Is plausable and non deniable when it comes to the energies of both the soul and universal counter parts.
Very good conclusion and theory.
The string is very interesting as an idea.....
I would need to understand if 'balance' and mass were not to be affected.
I would think that balance and mass would be automatically calculated no matter what, since the universe is apparently infallible.
I guess it depends on the point you are trying to make.
well surely to determine the mass of energy in one type it will change when it becomes something else.......it may lose mass if that were possible....
I dont think I'm explaining myself to well here.....getting late...lol
In reference to energy changes. Movement from one dimension to another is not a violation of conservation of energy.
BL, I think what you are saying is conversion of matter to energy is not a violation as they are types of the same thing by the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy.
platinumwitch~
I believe I am trying to say that...lol...thank you.
I'm going to bed...LOL
Ok, so lets assume that in the super natural realm that many things may exist in some of the alternate dimensions. I understand that there is "theoretically" 23 dimensions. Of the 23 we only access 5 dimensions. Length, Width, Height, spacial and time. That leaves a lot of room for the use of energy in the other 17. In which you would only be able to exist as energy anyway. So to answer your question, Yes physics would apply.
There is a lot of you saying that supernatural and natural all rely on physics......and proof is out the question at this level.
So is 'anything' truly possible!!!!
Or are we waiting for science to dis-prove them!
So some get prooven,some dont.Doesnt change what it is.Whether we access the energy with our minds ,atom smashers, or some other way we dont even know.It is still the same plate on the table.Pyisics,math..all those things are are ways to notate and communicate whats out there.
BL... come on science doesnt set out to disprove anything. Science is research to find answers.
I think that science is trying to unlock the answers that are yet undiscovered. I mean really think about it. A Witch who studies the arts is doing exactly what a scientist would do, experiment. They may have to different outlooks on the same matter, but still, is faith really a factor, or is understanding why a spell works or how a spirit can cross the Planes nothing more that coming to enlightenment?
Thats just it Evility,some of us have thought about it..This concept is not new.
we don't know for certain that magic can't be explained by physics only that no one knows how to do it yet. Since magic and physics both deal with energy it is very plausible that someday someone will be able to explain magic through physics.
I believe magic is just a form of science we are yet to understand fully, after all science is just the art of manipluating the natural world to the form we want it to take, so essentialy is magic.
Magic/Science, Science/Magic. Where one stops and other begins is just a matter of experience, perspective and ultimately knowledge.
I belive phsics and magick are related for they both are scientfic in ways
The laws of magic
1. The First Law (or Law of Magical Reaction): Every action has an equal and opposite, but aligned, reaction.
2. The Second Law (or Law of Magical Inertia): Inertia holds; spells in force tend to remain in force unless acted on by an opposite force. Spells in latency tend to remain in latency unless acted on by an opposite force.
3. The Third Law (or Law of Magical Conservation): Magic, mass and energy all conserve.
4. The Fourth Law, First Iteration (The Law of Magical Attraction): Aligned spells attract.
5. The Fourth Law, Second Iteration (The Law of Magical Repulsion): Unaligned spells repel.
6. The Fifth Law, First Iteration (or Law of Spellcasting): The force of the spell cast will be equal to the energy used multiplied by the number of casting magicians, minus conversion energy.
7. The Fifth Law, Second Iteration (or Law of Spellshielding): The damage done to a tribe by a spell or spell recoil will equal the energy sent minus the capacity of the buffer (or sacrifice), divided by the number of casting Wolves.
8. The Sixth Law (or Law of Alignment): Negative magic begets negative reactions. Positive magic begets positive reactions.
Sound familiar?
http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/laws/
9. The Seventh Law (or Law of Compulsion): Every spell used to compel the behavior of any living creature against its will carries a negative alignment.
10. The Eighth Law (or Law of Harm): Every spell used to inflict harm, damage, pain, or death, no matter the nature of the target, carries a negative charge.
11. The Ninth Law (or Law of Souls) : The mortal representative of an immortal soul carries the charge of the soul, whether positive, negative, or neutral.
12. The Tenth Law (or Law of Neutrality): Anything that carries a neutral charge can be affected by and drawn to either positive or negative charges. Neutrality is a position of weakness, not strength.
http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/laws/
oops sorry.Here.
Defintely sounds familar .....from my comprehensive school I belief plus a few moral guidelines thrown in, thanks Oceanne:)
are we saying that those definitions of magic are based on physics?
if so, the laws of magic are relatively new!
Good point BL, Oceanne, do you know when these laws where set down?? This could make a very intresting dicussion....
Im not saying anything guys,you already know where I stand.But Im just putting things here that might help put this into perspective for some.
And you mention Magic is new BL. Hah yes,it might appear that way,but in reality it is only the way we communicate it to others that is new.The energies themselves have been around since before time.
No Twisted,I really dont know that offhand.But yes,it would be fun to find out wouldnt it?
Oceanne~
I agree, I would say those energies have been around from day one.
It could be argued that they are the universe
The only thing I would say there BL is that they are all components of the universe.Some cause creation,some destruction,but they all play theyre part in the dynamics of it.
Your statement brings to mind the question of which energies might be the oldest..and alot of other questions along that line too.But thats for another day..
or the weekend at least...I am now shattered, but hey, i hit level 18 partly due to this discussion, so thanks BL and Oceanne:))
I agree with others
"supernatural " is natural. Humans only use 10% of their brain. There for its only tapping into that other 90% that is so rarely used. What else do you think is in that 90%? For all we know if we could use it we would be able to fly and heal our selves of all aliments and pains.
Physics has everything to do with what humans consider "supernatural". Lest we forget at one point in time what we know now would have been considered witchcraft or works of evil.
Also, everything must be mirrored.
I hear that....but physics explains why, or at least tries to.
when a physicist experiments etc, the formula is set out and recorded - one way or the other....
a witch is less likely to be so prohibited by regulations etc
Both scientists and witches can conduct research and form hypotheses about their experiments, test them, and derive laws and/ or theories. Many witches are only users of research conducted by a few very talented ones. The same is said for technologists and engineers who use the basic research of scientists to design new electronic gadgets and other high tech applications. Sound the same to me in both cases, how about you BL and Oceanne?
You hit the nail on the head PW. I am personally involved with several peeps who are doing this very thing..I love it.
so they are the same...except a physicist may or maynot say "abracadabra" lol
advances in physics are all around us especially in the realms of maths and numerous other fields.
can witches boast the same in advancement?
Exactly BL.At least that is what I seem to be finding.
And I woould say yes,very much so that magic users are making advances in this arena.And to be honest? The differences I see in them,as opposed to a user who hasnt advanced in this manner and adjusted their thinking? Major.
The problem is that magic is studied on an individual basis, not at Hogwarts.
all advanced spiritual traditions deal with ways in which the energy hidden in matter can be transformed so that the spirit can be embodied as wisdom. I’m thinking charkas, or energy centers here. The have been studied as a way of transforming energy into consciousness.
Does anyone know if physics has been applied specifically to the study of energy in this area?
http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=8&pageid=73&pgtype=1
http://www.meditationeveryday.com.au/quantum-physics/
http://www.thehealingspectrum.com/aura.html
http://www.wwwolf.co.uk/drmunchie/articles/drmunchie-QBC-1and2.pdf