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The periodic table consists of 118 elements (that includes a synthesized element)

Of these natural elements what would you say are the elements we call upon for spells?
and why is that?

thats a good question, not sure how many herbs are on the periodic table but i know that for spells sometimes it calls for water. other than that i would really need to research that.

Sulphur is popular .lead was used by alcamist. magnessium

Minerals that are found in the body consintrated.

there are several synthesised elements but all too short living to be practical

back on topic - several Biblical passages use the image of burning brimstone (the ancient name for sulfur) to represent divine wrath

You ask this in a site made for individuals of the ages 13-whatever? My word you have some high expectations.

OK as a chemist and a witch we can start this lesson off right. Many of the metals and elements known in ancient times were used in magic. Examples gold represented the sun and silver the moon in spell castings.

Here is a summary using the periodic table.

Wow platinum, nice periodic table.

platinumwitch~

you beat me to it, I was just about to post that.

Yes craige spot on, I did mention synthesized elements

soulshroud~
it's for the benefit of those teens that I post these threads -- sooner have them discussing this than ....G-d knows..LOL

I didn't realize elements like those were used in spells. I thought the periodic table was more for alchemists than spellcasters.

well they are 'natural' elements (mainly)...what ones did you have in mind?

Point well made, and very good discription Platinum. Very very nice link. For the benifit of human kind as well as other kind I should think. I withdraw my previous post.

Very well done.

Another impressive post from platinum as he educates us with science and magic

bravo!

platinumwitch~

am I correct in thinking that the 'table' is set out in such a way as to create a type of balance of elements..?

which would also be kinda magical...!

I take no credit for creation of this table. I use it as a good reference. It looks to me to be accurate in how I would use these elements.

BL, sorry to steal your thunder. It just seemed appropriate to post this here.

I have other reference links in my profile for correspondences.

No so sure if it would be a balance of chemicals partaining to magickal aspects, but adhering to the qualities vs quantities of magickal applications is well founded.

If we are not careful, I would suspect too much thought into one subject and over analysing would be the conclusion.

The actual periodic table groups elements of similar natures by their electronic structure. That is why copper (Cu), Silver (Ag), and gold (Au) are in the same column on a traditional periodic table.

Always someone pinching my 'thunder', but that's electricity and for another day...LOL

I'm not sure there's much more to be said other than:

Wow, I never appreciated my high school chem classes so much....and that periodic table--holy cow! I'm saving that link.

I had a hunch there wouldn't be much in the Lanthanide and Actinide series that would be useful for magic, due to the whole toxic and radioactive properties thing...

As far as how the periodic table is laid out, inert atoms (those with totally full electron matrices) are placed in the right column. Those which have all but one space filled in the outer shell of electrons orbiting the atomic nucleus get placed in the next-to-rightmost column. Higher atomic weights place an element further down on the table.

On the other hand, if you have an atom that has only one electron in its outermost electron shell, that goes on the far left. Proceed till you meet in the middle. The number of electrons in the outer shell grows exponentially (1,2,4,8,16,32); 32 is the highest number we've found so far, and many of the elements which appear with 32 spaces in their electron matrix are also unstable and subject to radioactive decay.

Wow, it's amazing how much I remember from 2 years of chem my sophomore and junior years! Our 15-year class reunion was last year...

As far as magical links for the elements, I generally use gold for the sun, silver for the moon, nitrogen for air (most air is something like 78% N anyway), phosphorus or magnesium for fire, classic H20 for water, salt(NaCl) or sand(SiO2) for earth.

Getting into the Chinese elements is a little trickier: I use N for wind; H20 for water; carbon (C) for wood (since most plant matter is made up of complex and long-chain carbon-based molecules); phosphorus (P) for fire; and I tend to use tin (Sn), iron (Fe), or silver (Ag) for metal.

great educational thread on the Elements very impressive I love the link by the way :)

Are atomic numbers taken into account when doing magic?

BL, I have not seen any one using them as such but they are what defines the identity of an element. Atomic number 47 is Silver. Silver has 47 protons in its nucleus and this identifies the atom as silver. Copper likewise has an atomic number of 29 and 29 protons in every copper atom.

I'm learning a lot on this thread!

this is educational needless to say :) wow!!

a ribbon of flash paper can be sealed in a tube with lithium and a little karosen to make neat fire from finger effects.Part of the craft is creating visual stimulation.

if we are talking pre chemistry or alchemy then yes as mentioned you need magnesium, but you also have to rember that alchamists were notorius for using lead, and mercury or quicksilver in thier experiments, sulfer and iron were also used freaquently. Then for more modern forms you cant really go off the periodic table much can you? I mean if you look at things used compound wise, then yes you can always break them apart and look at whats was used, like water is hydrogen and oxygen. Or quartz for its carbon and various silicates or am I makeing a leap?

poses the question... is a magic ritual specific to the element as we know it in the periodic talbe? If we use silver instead of gold, or oxygen instead of nitrogen can we expect different results?

water, sulphur, gold, silver.

i think i'm in over my head, chemistry is not a strong pointe of mine.

herbs, water Stones, Gold, silver, wax, crystals, moon.. LOL I do not know

I have no clue. Never been good with any of this stuff. Even though I keep trying.

is it becouse elements come from the earth

Changing the element used in the ritual in many cases, unless careful substitution by correspondence is used, will drastically change the outcomes. Silver and gold do not substitute well, except in a money spell. (We will save that for another time.) Silver is female and aligned with the Moon and gold is male and aligned with the Sun. You would not use gold in a ritual addressing the Goddess.

I wonder about the properties of Ecto-plasm but that is another topic as well.

Water, minerals, and some metals I'd figure.

I cannot find among two bebunker sites and one fluff site any mention of Ecto Plasm I was hoping to get a article on the make up of fake Ghost snot .I'll keep looking.I think gel type substances or gases that condense to fluid

Oxygen Both Air,Fire Gas All A colorless, odorless, tasteless gas, quite reactive with most other elements. Part of DNA, and is required for life for respiration, and for combustion. It's part of thousands of organic compounds. With H, it makes up water, and is soluble in water, allowing water life. As ozone, it shields us from ultraviolet rays. Oxygen is all around us, and used in many magickal activities from burning a candle & incense, to breathing & speaking.

I'm sorry but it's amazing how even something as fascinating and spiritual as magick can be chauvinistic that Gold is Male and Silver which in value standards is less and associated with Females.

I had to vent

Hmm herbs on a periodic table :D

I seem to agree with more the aspect of the minearlas. Sulphu is mentioned alot, water (H2O) alot, ll depends on the spell.

Polishsiren~
I bet you have a heart of gold....or is it a heart of 'AU'...lol

I had no idea...that is intresting information.

Could it be said that if you were allergic to some of the elements that you could never be a witch......like a 'complete' one?

I'm sure we could call on any and all of them as long as we knew the righ spell.

I'm sorry that i can't contribute anything to this thread as i'm very much a novice at spells plus there are a lot of very Knowledgeable people here that have allready put their peice in. But i did want to thank platinumwitch for that periodic table, i have saved the link and plan on studying it throughly asap:)

TwistedWhispers~

thats interesting, as a novice would you now include a chemistry book on your shelf as well as a book of spells?

Why not bloodlife, i'm sure that there are many practising 'wirches' and i use the term very loosely, that are very knowledgable in the mainstream sciences as well, not that i've had a chance to research this matter, but it would make sence as, as stated in another thread magic and science is very much combined. if you get my meaning, i'm getting tired:)

TwistedWhispers~
I understand perfectly and agree totally.

I think those who were gifted in magic (call them witches) passed on their knowledge and that became the fundamental beginnings of educational science

I should add that that is just my opinion and it's meant in a loose sense.....

I perfectly understand, it does seem that way. I'm looking forward to Oceanne's answer in the other thread:)

wow just caught up with this thread and that link from PlatinumWitch is great. I've got a chemistry degree - I wish I could have studied it from that perspective :-)

yes, but it could be the case of the chicken or the egg....

Or in this case modern science or 'the laws'. Depending on Oceanne's answer, we could potentially have a scienctific barrel of worms here, Lol

would it be fair to compare chemists with witches ..... bunsen burners with couldrons....

after all, rudimentally they are the same...aren't they??

BL... what about a chemist that actually is a witch?

And by the way yes I do have a heart of AU... ;)

If you think about it, you call upon every element in some way or another because everything in this world is some how composed of more than just one of those elements..

SeleneRose -

Not really. Some elements can only be created in labs and the like.

"would it be fair to compare chemists with witches ..... bunsen burners with couldrons....

after all, rudimentally they are the same...aren't they??"

My answer is yes.Over all.
Haha! Oh,TW, thats funny.
Everyone likes worms dont they?
Want some? ;)

Chemistry was once associated with Metalalurgy, when man looked for ways to turn mundane minerals to gold but there was a split with science and spirituality and that is for a good reason. Much to do with spirituality relies on faith in things unseen, while science relies on what is proven and seen. Therefore, science, and spirituality are not connected and should not be.

As to chemists and witches, it depends what you mean by chemist. If we're talking a chemical scientist then the links would be fairly small since the original witches were as concerned with community around her.

I'd say a closer likening would be between a witch and a pharmacist both hold a seemingly arcane knowledge. One being the complex chemicals and interactions in the medicines we take, the other the herbs to combine in a poultice. Both would when called upon offer advice of a more pastoral nature, for witch more along the lines of what to do when cursed, for the pharmacist something more mundane like giving up smoking.

The chemical scientist, at least this is to my mind owes more to the alchemists and metalurgists. Indeed Alchemy has a similar word root if you listen and look at both Alchemist and Chemist, and there's a branch of chemistry known as metallurgy. Alchemists sought to create substances from others, trying to find either gold or the philosopher's stone as the heart of their endevors. These days chemists are still discovering new compounds and still have lofty goals of their own.

Ok, that would be a glich in the English language.......over here, in the UK a pharmacist and a chemist are pretty much one and the same thing.

Same in Europe and Australia BL.

In the Americas a chemist and a pharmacist are very different. I am a chemist and I study how matter interacts in both microscopic and macroscopic scales in its conversions between compounds and energy states. A pharmacist deals with dispensation of medicines, their properties, and medicinal interactions. Two very different careers. I am sorry I was unclear earlier as I forgot the cultural differences in the uses of the term chemist in Europe and the Americas. I also am a candle burning cauldron stirring witch and do not see much relationship other than as a heat source in archaic Bunsen burners and cauldrons. Chemistry does have its roots in alchemy which was and still is an area of magickal study.

thanks for the link platinumwitch
i will check it out

So in other words we can say that magick is a term for unexplained science

what about minerals, instead of elements? I used to make jewelry for people to use as totems or blood shrines or whatever.. using minerals they asked for, particularly different cryptocrystalline quartzes like agate, jasper or chalcedony from different areas or of different trace element types (yittrium bearing fluorite, anyone? lol)
D

there compositions may vary but minerals are elements and/or complex silicates

Juno - I have to disagree about your idea of faith and science. Though I recognize that you specified "spirituality", many actual scientists will tell you that the performance of science is indeed based on faith. Expected outcomes require a belief that the outcome will be just that - the expected outcome. The ultimate purpose of science is now, and has always been, to prove the existence of those elements which comprise our spirituality.

The purpose behind medieval alchemy was typically to prove the perfection of God through scientific means.

However, performing spell work is a great matter of faith, where the actual performance and catalyst is faith itself. So in that light - I agree, the two should be separated, ne'er to meet.

ok I have to slightly diagree with the above post, alchemy was a process for generateing some result particualry for a means of espaceping the bonds of phsyical limitations includeing wealth and life. I am a psych student with my area being clinical psych, and while my field starys from the harder sciences I also know where those areas go. Scientists maintain a sense of faith in things and in the greater sense of the world and universe. However we do not use faith in something as a means of predicting its outcome. We observe something happening, devise a means of explaining that occurance and ideally can expalin away its notion of mystery or blind faith and instead try and make people understand how it happened why it happened and in turn replicate the process for the betterment of humanity and our understanding. In fact one of the most elementary ideas of science flies in the face of faith at time, Occums principal or "razor" says that the simplest explination is usually the correct one. Faith is never simple, never easy to subvert or change and more then naught leads to classes. This is not science.

Plat, have you put much work into getting any Empirical data on the matrix of “magic”. We have the electrical structure as the matrix for the periodic table and the physical world we also now are building on the quantum structure but what about the meta physical? Have you done any work there?

Sorry not trying to hijack the thread but it’s related. If we are going to identify what magical elements exist we also need to identify the “magical” force that ties them together.

Another related question/idea: In magic our focus is Earth-centric meaning the Earth is the center of the focus and perception. Look at astrology for example, also the moon being used to identify with femininity, etc. If humanity moved to Mars, or another system their perception would change as would the physical elements they could have access too, such as different metals for an example. These new elements would need to be added to our tables of course but would magic still function or how would it change? Would our moon hold sway over someone on Mars and to what degree? What about someone in a different system altogether? Again just something to think about. There are so many unidentified elements out there. It’s ashamed the government does not give out grants to empirically study “magic”.

I did not say that faith was a means of creating an outcome. Perhaps I can clarify. A hypothesis is a belief that something will occur and which is supported by some evidence. The scientific process next dictates that this hypothesis be tested. There is a certain level of faith inherent in the scientist that their predicted outcome will come to fruition.

Alchemy tested the elements and nature finding a connection with those things and themselves. The purpose was to discover the secrets of the Universe, which was created by their Deity.

One of our most famous scientists was Sir Isaac Newton. Many will certainly agree that he was most instrumental in what we now know as modern physics. His inspiration was to produce evidence of the perfection of God. His faith drove his scientific research.

BL - what a discussion you started! if there is a test at the end for all who participated that I want to be certified!

fabulous and mentaly exersizing

I don't think that there is an asumption that the outcome will come to fruition, but to determine the outcome

I haven't heard of this before..please can you give me a link to read up on the subject?

Polishsiren~

reading these responses I feel I need to take the exam again...lol
I always knew there was talent out there among our members, as long as it stays on track.

Earth, Wind, Water, Fire,.......hmmm how does hydrogen and oxygen, that coves wind and water in pure forms, oh and a light amount of nitorgen, now pure fire, hmmm that could be interesting, everything burns with oxygen present, and carbon is left in the end, a pure element again, Earth is made up of various elements, too many to name on here, but how did I do...lol? I think its an awsome topic!

''Could it be said that if you were allergic to some of the elements that you could never be a witch......like a 'complete' one?''

I think, even if a witch were allergic to some elements, there are still ways that people can handle what they're alergic to.

i think it calls for water

The most abundant element in the Universe is Hydrogen. The building blocks of life is Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen and Nitrogen. These are the four major elements that make up life on Earth. Water is a compound.
Compounds is a mixture of two or more elements and I think that is what makes life so unique, because we are made up of DNA that has genetic codes and makes us look different in everyway.

A lot of metals were used in magic, because different metals give off different coloured flames, like sodium, yellow, copper sulphate, green and calcium, red etc. Chemists called this flame testing. Alchemists try to turn base metels to gold. Most elements in those days were not discovered yet, we need to give credit to the Russion chemist called Mendeleev who placed most of the elements in the modern periodic table. Air was an element until gases were discovered.

I really don't know.

Here's a link that may be helpful...

hmm i really dont know :(

NKS,

You posted a Role Playing Game page as reference to a discussion on magic and science. That’s as good as posting a wooden toy page when trying to discuss the latest developments in alternative fueled automotives.

I can see it now, the scientists that are developing quantum processing systems reporting to congress that they failed their phase 3 development because they rolled to low on their success changes but to solve this dilemma they have filed a requisition to purchase custom loaded dice so they’ll have a better chance of success in the future.

not sure

for those posting "I really dont know" and "I'm not sure" type comments....why don't you ask?!!!!
Who knows, you may discover something!!!!

BL -

I'm quite sure them asking such an easy question is beyond them, even.

Remember, just like in school the only stupid question is the unanswered one. Be brave and ask. You may learn something. :)

I've heard that iron can have a particularly aderse affect to some spells or concoctions, is this true??

When is the next class you are teaching at professor?

i think spells more or less come from the spirts more then elements

edthigpen - why do you think they come from spirits?

and who is is they? and why not elements?

Hey Platinum,

How hard do you think it’d be to get a control and a test group of say 12 people each that use various physical elements while “using magic”. We could set up the tests substituting in false elements and testing if the users can detect them and interview them and see if their magic was affected in any way.

RedWind~

Lets have a look at 'Iron' and see....

Iron, chemical symbol Fe . It is one of the few ferromagnetic elements. It's also one of the heaviest elements.

Do you think perhaps its propertise in magnetism have this adverse effect on magic....or maybe its weight?!!

Wow - terrific information Platinum!

As for the witch substituting an element that (s)he is allergic to -there are always ways to substitute things in spells. You would have to research what could be used in it's place.

BL - How do we define adverse? Would it be an adverse reaction if the iron did the opposite of what the practitioner wanted it to do? Or can we take a scenario, place the iron in that scenario and then observe the iron behaving in a manner inconsistent with its nature?

If it's effectiveness is based in magnetism, you have two things to use it for - attracting or banishing. This is basically the essentials of chemistry, isn't it? Polar opposites? The only way for it to have an adverse reaction is if it did the opposite of what you wanted it to do - that is either attracting what you want to banish, or banishing what you want to attract.

If you simply want it to do something, and instead it does nothing, then you have to decide - a) does iron really work in spell casting at all or b) are you performing the spell properly. If you're not sure what you want to use it for and simply want it to do something, then your answer is most typically B in the negative.

Anyone know anything about the 8 metal alloy?And its use in magic?

I have the same question for edthigpen as PolishSiren does.

Wolfsbohne~

for an advese effect to manifest in iron you would need to change the enviroment. Experiment in a vacuum or perhaps in space. The element, although it can be manipulated, it can't be changed, it will remain an element even if you change its properties.

Any scenario you put iron in would not be for the practitioner to decide the outcome but merely to observe.
The irony is (pun intended), have we experimented enough with this natural ore to know just what its capabilities are.

BL-
I hope I understand this right (and I hope its because of your last question).

In order for the iron to operate opposed to what you are intending, you must first have an objective in mind - then experiment to that end if you can. Now, I have an adverse reaction to Benedryl. Typically this medication makes people drowsy. Unfortunately for me, I get speedy. The drug is known for making people drowsy, not the other way around as in my case.

You can't have an adverse reaction if you're not sure what the first action should actually be. So we must first define the properties and functions of iron, discover their capabilities and operate accordingly.

Why, if you know (or at least think you know) the properties and functions, would you include iron in any concoctions or spell work that are known to have negative (not necessarily adverse) reactions? In that case, the reaction is not adverse because it is behaving according to its nature.

At this point, I think I'm battling semantics. But I also think that if you are including iron in spellwork it should be for a reason. If there is an adverse reaction, we shouldn't blame the element - Like you said, you can't change it, it's still that element. The blame should be laid on the practitioner for not performing the spell work properly or not concocting the draught appropriately.

Hence the reason you asked if we have experimented with it enough to know its true value.

Wolfsbohne~

I tend to agree with much of what you said.
But again I will say that 'iron' will act accordingly, irrespective of what the practioner wants it to do.
Even magic needs to use the fundamental laws of natural science to accomplish results.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.