The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

Before I sound off about a certain group of relatively local people who I've never met, but have interacted with online on a forum that deals with happenings in the area where I go to university at, I want to make clear that this isn't about ANYONE here at VR INTENTIONALLY (in case some members there are ALSO members here). I've posted this hear because it is of a "gothic" nature.

I'll give you what they say, and I'll be honest, it's a LITTLE contradictory.

I've blotted out the names of the site and where it all goes down, for protection of those who JUST MIGHT be on this site as well. The names of the users are their handles on the website, and not their real names in the slightest, as far as I know.

Here we go:

Welcome to the site! This is ******, the website for the Goth/Industrial scene (however small it is currently) in ****************** This site is a good way to keep track of upcoming events, and to get involved in the creation of a local scene.
Before you make yourself comfortable, you must understand that many of the users here have known each other for years. Anything said in a sarcastic tone may not be taken that way. To quote Muse “We don't know you. We've never met you. If you say something sarcastic, we don't know if you are kidding, or if you are just stupid. Please take that into account when you post.”
On this site we would like to create a balance between welcoming new people and keeping everyone safe. We admit to judging people a little harshly when you sign up on the site. We are, after all, only human. So please take into account that your websites will be viewed by our members, who are just curious about the new people. Remember that the content of your website affects how we think of you.
We would love for you to post, and come to coffee. We really do like meeting new people. Though if you show up at coffee, prepare to be the center of everyone’s attention.
Before I go any further, I should make it clear that I, Raven, am the ***** forum police. This letter of introduction is probably the nicest that I will ever be. If you begin harassing any member of the forum, I will come down very hard on you. Please use common sense when posting, and I hope we can all get along.


They continue with this:

"....coffees are attended by a great number of like-minded people generally between the ages of 20-35. We do, however, also have a regular attendance of people below and beyond those ages.

"Coffee" has existed for this community in some shape for about 7 years, and we hope it will continue for many more. We don't ask a lot of newcomers, other than respect. Respect is not "Respect me because I have more Bauhaus on vinyl than you do!", but rather the respect of personal boundaries. If you need to be in someone's face to talk to them, this might not be the right place for you. If you want to walk in and draw attention to yourself, this may not be the right place for you.

Chances are we'll be enraptured with you, as a new person, and claw at you for more information. If, however, you just want to tell someone about how you got suspended from school for wearing 4" spiked cuffs to an assembly, we'll probably be less than thrilled.

We get silly, often. We have candy fights, make sock puppets and make up really awful band names. We don't expect mature actions 100% of the time, just mature minds. Open minds. Blah blah blah. I shouldn't have to write this stuff, but here it is. If you have any questions, just PM me. I'll ramble your ear off. I'm really good at that. "


Sounds good so far, and fairly realistic now doesn't it? What they don't tell you is that there's been issues before with people. Bad stereotypes knockin' at their doors and when they were let in, urinated on the acceptance they have received.

What I interpret all of this I shape it this way:

Everyone and anyone whose gone against the grain ever is going to have SOME stories of persecution and intolerance, even just little glares here and there. These people who frequent a local pocket of the goth scene, which is in its fledgling stages seem to have boarded themselves up behind very high walls, but with a message that SLIGHTLY contradicts their overall message of wanting to meet new people like themselves. "Sure, we'd like to meet you, but you have to jump through hoops first" sounds like what they are saying to me.


I'm not trying to demonize people I've never met, but I'm a prospective philosophy major and well, this stands out.

My question is, to those who are gothic, is this kind of elitism common, or are these people just stuck up?

I apologize for the long post.

It could be presumed as both. It does sound a bit snobbish, but who within the elder goth scene does not sound a bit snobbish from time to time...Names I will not divulge.

Though that statement about sarcasm is a bit true, the words need to be re-iterated for less of an insultive statement.

Hell, here in Nola, there is a small on the side transient pretending to be trueblood goth scene running around. We don't pay them any mind unless they try to butt in to where they do not belong.

I would not pay any attention to the maddening raves of a lunatic or any other cultural "craving" individual.

May seem as though I sound a bit snobbish or arrogant, but hell...I am always blunt and to the point. This is my way, I realize what I am saying...Not sure if others do or not.

Thanks for replying!

Yeah, it does seem like that. They reinforce their desire to want to meet people, but then they still throw it out there that it's not going to be easy as pie to be a member of the group.

I'd think I would meet these people, but for those of you VR members here who remember me when I posted quite frequently on this forum, you know me as a guy that can really throw down in how much I can type. I can practically write PhD dissertations, that's how long they can be sometimes.


That said, I would have an earful ready for 'em if they tried snobbery in real life.

I am aware of what many percieve as selfish delusion for personal gain and privilage. Those individuals of whom reside here in Nola, easily succumb to the desires to be like those whom are...Rather than just be themselves.

Seems as though there are two personalities...Those of whom are brown nosers, and the stuck up types. This sort of environment beckons all types, but these two specifically. Either you need to have written a book to be part of the elite, or butt in where you do not belong to actually be noticed.

Pardon my french but it seems someone has a stick up there @$$ Kinda sounds like a fraternity more than a group of freinds wanting to meet new people

Elitism happens in every scene. In every culture or subculture there ara cliques of the individuals within it. Goths are not exempt from this. It's human nature, after all. And folly to assume that just because one is "goth" that they do not conform to every single societal idiosyncracy.

TheatreVampyre is right. Sounds very snobbish to me. I would get far away from them after reading that. Seems if they really wanted to meet new people that the message would be more welcoming.

Wow, sounds to me as they think themselves better than most and are telling you upfront that that is the way its gonna be until you prove yourself worthy.

At least they are honest about it but I would think long and hard before joining that group, besides, maybe THEY aren't good enough......hahaha

It's no secret that certain groups of people can be very snobbish regardless of whether or not they're Goth or Preppy. The only different is the style (in some cases)

Bible Studies Have the same attitude. Guess what, they run the show they built the stage let them perform
soon they will relieze they are the actors and the audience. Watching such Drama is incouraging to them. They script such reactionary responses into there world. Be there to siphion off those that quickly
"Get Over there Trip".

Thanks again for all the responses!

If I was going to their little "coffee night", I'd bring a friend with me to level the playing field a bit.

I shouldn't have to do that, but they as Dabbler said, "built the stage". I'm just going by the rules they've set for themselves, and if fragile egos get shattered, feelings get hurt.... who cares. They're the ones who instigated this shit in the first place.

And, for those here who follow any sort of Strigoi Vii or such like that, these are a group of White Swans it seems.

Abstract point: If individuals with perhaps multicoloured hair, non-mainstream fashion sense, etc wanna pick apart a lifestyle that doesn't ALWAYS draw from the goth stock, but it's like calling the kettle black when you add the aforementioned bullshit on top of that.

Those who know me well realize the value of my friendship.

The group we've been discussing here must prove their worth.

It is hard to judge a response based on that. I think the first few paragraphs did a good job at stating ways to make sure you don't miscommunicate with the older members. In person, they may be very open minded and welcoming.

They probably just want to make sure that no one comes with ill-intent. And they may be trying to sound snobbish just to keep those who really wouldn't fit in from trying to make an attempt at it only to feel out of place.

Every group has standards for the people they associate with. Most people are open minded these days, so I think it's worth taking a chance when it comes to meeting new people and groups.

I also feel they do sound alittle snobbish yet, doesn't most societies who have a code as they call it as to getting into their social group whether it be Goth, preppy or any kind. Myself I feel they do sound as if they are better than the rest of civiliation too. LOL

I would just not even want to be around people like that is my opinion.. I guess I am just a laid back open minded sort... LOL and they are to Rule restricted with many boundaries to me...

They do seem to have a flair for the act of superiority.
Coming from another aspect though, it sounds like a mind F@#k. Some people just want to see if you can stand on your own two feet. Are you going to buckle under the "im going to do everything to not step on any toes" or are they just going to be themselves.
Some houses and families are like that. They want to see if you are worth it and can stand on your own.
But then again......it is just a website.

A running joke is the Would You Parties, The focus of which is posers, those that seek out various subcultures and are found to lack basic inetrest in the chosen SC, they are treated like cult members, yet in fun with parlor games first, then with suggestions of initiation, those in the know are amused by it. I don't condone such things but I have seen people that would mock a subculture even infiltartating them in their circles flushed out this way, Under cover officers don't stand a chance among Carneys for this very purpose.

what would one gain by "infiltrating" a specific sc that you know nothing of?

or rather not have a specific interest in?

Motive haha, why to undermind the dweebs, to be able to take note of who is involved, what activities they do together, to create fodder to demean who they see as dweebs. The same reason guys want to be a fly on the wall of a slumber party. In the Us against them world infiltration provides a return retort to " We are mysterious." Mentalities, a reply like, "Oh they sit around and have candy fights, that is lame." are supported.

yeah that guy kinda sounds a bit on the stuck up side. I wouldn't want to go there and chat or whatever.

Yeah, if it meant I'd have to be like them, I'm glad I'm a reject.

I'd say that introduction seems intelligent and forthcoming. There's nothing wrong with someone letting you know what you're in for before you get too involved or get your feelings hurt. They've most likely had both people join to act stupid and flame everyone as well as people join that were too easily offended when they got their egos checked.

i have to agree with felix. it sounds like they are just trying to be straight forward with new people. While i do believe there is an elitist attitude in all genres, i think you should also give it a chance. you never know until you try something.

There was a study done about elitism in groups or cliques. People were separated randomly into groups and given a task. Within days, there were feelings of superiority in most groups regardless of their success at the task. In addition, very early on, people within a group began to think or speak amongst themselves in a derogitory way about other groups.

It's human nature to desire a sense of belonging and even when that sense is misleading or misplaced, people will clutch to a group their in as a safety or a comfort.

Well you`ll never know until you try!
Just go there and see if it fits you!
Sometimes the publicity is not reflecting the reality.

It diesn't really sound to me like they want just anyone to join. Maybe they are just trying to make people realise that you will have to earn their respect..like everything in this world should be earned. But you would think they could have been a bit nicer if they really wanted people to feel welcome.

Yeah.... it seems more and more like a cold reception than a warm one. Still is a reception there, but to put it colloquially, I won't be calling them 'bro' by the end of the night.

It's really realistic, I'll give it that. Obviously they can't be THAT bad, because new people sign up for the site all the time (relatively speaking of course) and it's been surviving for a few years it seems.

There comes a point where I have to venture out and engage them in real life to get a sense of them. That point I've practically reached, save for the fact that I'm out of that city where they are for four months. I plan still to tackle the situation with a friend in my corner, a particularly blunt one at that.

It'll be a real tester, as my friend whom I'll be bringing is a good friend of mine, and is a good base to who I am, besides the vampyrism and the gothic interests. To put my personality to music, definitely the feeling of Rob Zombie's songs mixed with Godsmack, and a touch of The Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative describes me.

Which to me means I can be a real partier, wild and loud, but I have a softer side as well.

My...how things have changed since the early 90s. The only "underground" that remains in this world is apparently the London subway system. Remember when "alternative music" stopped being the alternative to anything...& became the choice of the masses? How many of you people did a Google search on how to be a proper goth? Times have really changed...so people need to get over themselves & just have fun.

I would have to agree with AX74 that things have gotten quite of hand both in the goth subculture and some.
I think elitism springs out from the fact that there are mobs of confused people out there who force themselves into a subculture which they have no idea of in the first place to compensate for their lack of identity. So the old time members (in this case the old school goths, if that's what they really are) tend to become snobbish and suspicious. Though, I don’t agree with the contradictory statements made by the "forum police" either. It makes him/her seem hypocritical; but it's up to you to put up with it or not.

For me its mainly about group dynamics. Its screams out ‘status system’ and is basically no different from whelps who join VR, because we all have to start of somewhere. The statement is there to remind individuals prior to joining and on arrival exactly where they are situated and located within the group.

To some degree the message is basically ‘conformity’. However, do try to maintain your individuality during the process and if you mind your P’s & Q’s you will do just fine. It’s this that will predict and determine how accepted and popular you can potentially become, assuming you last the distance.

Its no different from any group that has the capability to exclude and marginalize. Individuals are assessed on behavior, opinions and whether or not your pretty little face suits. What is sometimes disheartening is how some minority groups who often marginalized within society (for being different themselves) tend to mirror this treatment within their own clique. It’s a welcome with a warning and its your choice if you want to join and conform. Its merely stating what most groups don’t have the balls to state…I think its rather amusing :P

What a bunch of obnoxious jerks. Not only that, but everything they said was a big contradiction.

Thats why choice is such a wonderful thing, it's not like they have a loaded gun to peoples heads forcing them to join ..lol. I am by no means agreeing to it, I just admire how forthright and to the point that they are, at least all their cards are on the table and there shouldn't be any hidden surprises :)

Sounds like it could be among mall-goths. But they may not see it that way.

That introduction actually seemed to me to be from people who only want to relax and have a good time. Not only that, but they said at the very beginning; most of them know eachother, and have known eachother for a long time. I know that me and my little group of real life friends are a little suspicious of people, especially ones met initially online, who say they want to be friends. That's not elitism; that's being realistic.

Also, they said it several times; they do want to meet new people. It seems that they simply won't tolerate flamers and the self-absorbed.

And sock-puppets??? One should be so lucky to find a group of youngish Goths willing to be such jackasses in public! Go to their coffee :) it sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Also, don't go initially overly-defensive; anyone can sniff that out and be turned off by it. If you really want to try to be friends with these folks, just go with a good time in mind.

It appears the Goth Scene is not the only one that appears to have elite members but rather most groups or sub-cultures. I think it all stems from having a pride in the sense of belonging to a particular group.

I agree that although the introduction seemed to be a bit harsh, the message is clear "come hang out with us but leave your bullshit at the door"...and I can totally get behind that idea. Any time you get a large group of diverse personalities/cultures in the same "room" at the same time, drama will ensue momentarily. It sounds to me like this site is just simply saying that they would love to have new members/friends but they want to make it very clear they will not tolerate drama, or hatefulness of any kind.

From a PR view they are shotting themselves in the foot and appear reactionary, the person or people that riled them to react suceeded.

That was the most ridiculous, contradictory welcome post I've ever read. They are stuck up. Sounds like it's one rule for them, & another for everyone else.

If I'd of come across that site I'd of shut it down after the first paragraph.

Oh & respect is a two way street & is earned, not instantanious, I dont give a crap WHO they are. That "welcome" message was totally disrespectful to any new person mad enough to join.

I thought it was a bit baited as well. Would anybody bet that playing detective would revile a disgruntle former group member, "took his ball, because he could make the rules." I would...

It has been my experience that this type behavior is pretty typical in the "goth" scene. I have been in the "goth" scene for about 13 years (going to "goth" clubs working in them ect) in a few states, and have recieved this kind of attitude all around. I can also say it didn't use to be as bad and not so cliqueish. I have noticed as it has become a bit more scocialy acceptable to be "goth" that this behavior has increased.

why is that everytime that something becomes more ok, it gets less interesting? its like getting mad that rebellion isnt needed, well isnt that a good thing? being as dark as you wish and not hearing the whining of others

Those people that say, "I don't Care what others think about me..." (look around...) " I mean I am an individual...."( looks around notices nobody is shocked or astonished)... "So I hate everybody...", " what about you...?" (looks around a few people take offense of the outburst) "I mean I want to drink their blood when I kill them....!" (People shift to avoid an abrasive person) "See they think I am weird !" That is a person that can smear the group they hang out with. Instigate with rude behavior and I could car less
about there projected group identity.

In any group there are always go to be those stuck on the ego of themselves more than the new comers. People with "experience" in the lifestyle or people with innate "gifts" or "curses". Let's not pretend that we are better than any other subculture of society- we judge and are judged by each other.

Us against them, creating cliques that create splinter cliques that still want to belong to other things... group identity crisis.

One thing is that they may be trying to ensure that things remain civil at their gatherings. If you gave a group of folks that have been gathering together and enjoying themselves for 7 years, they may be ensuring that they continue to do so.

If this was available in my town, I would go and check it out. The worst thing that could happen is that they truly are a bunch of elitists and they would not be accepting of me.

In turn, I would forget they ever existed and continue with my life.

Years ago, there was a small scene here in Daytona, and the only time any of us gathered was at our local club on Saturday and Sunday, and the Denny's after closing. We would hand out, enjoy the music, dance, people watch, and enjoy eachother's company.

If someone turn elitist, we would make fun of them from a distance, but then quickly get back to the dance floor.

Life is too short to put up with the crap...

I second that motion meeps :)

A wise person once said to me "there will always be judger's and judges" or words to that effect.... lmao

Not saying I'm completely unsusceptible, but for the most part don't want to be part of any group which has an identifiable garb or demeanor which one is required to assume in order to fit in.

Fit in or out fit ?

to be accepted.

My niece is fifteen, and now proudly sporting two piercings (she wrote to me to say).

She's doing it to be accepted, because of peer pressure. I hate peer pressure.

peer pressure is what holds friends together... not that is so not right...

My friends are a diverse bunch, met through many different circumstances because of varied interests. I conduct myself somewhat differently depending on where I am, but mostly they like me for staying true to my inner nature and convictions, even if what I say is outrageous (in the particular venue) or disagreeable. Peer pressure made me miserable when I was a kid.

I took peer pressure and propelled myself to popularity... well among the outcast at least... okey I was a loner... but I was doing what everybody else was doing...

You did what most young people do .... conformity is not a bad word and it doesn't necessarily erode a persons individuality. Within sub cultures, it is supposed to unit people and create a sense of belonging to share similar interests. Where is the harm in that?

Baning together with people of simuliur interest, Even if we had nothing in common we shared that in common. Then we defined our interest together, all where welcomed... safty in numbers... so we did have a common bond self preservation.

Regardless of how one looks at it, the theory always remains the same :)

Just as we "get with it" we start to run out of time to enjoy the rest of the people for who they are... some will never grow out of that childlike state, sometimes I admire them (in some things) and in others i have to be concerned.

It is ironic that many members that entered the Gothic scene in the 80's and early 90's were primarily outcasts from most other social cliques.

Back then, Goths were more accepting of those that were different like them or not different like them.

Many of these Neo-Goths do seem to be more adament about dressing and looking the part, which is sad, but if these folks are in the same club as I, they best be sure to let me be and give me space upon the dance floor, whether I am in the garb or not.

Since when does the way you dress make you a Goth?

To quote Bloodmother - "...but for the most part don't want to be part of any group which has an identifiable garb or demeanor which one is required to assume in order to fit in."

'nuff said.Most humans,i find,are distasteful on their own but a group of supposed individuals with a common vested interest within themselves sounds like a bunch of poser wannabes...but you really should go and find out for yourself just what they are like,although i doubt you'll get a true idea from an initial visit.

In my experience with goth and the people I know who are goth as well... We are not elitist at all... but I do know that most people who claim goth tend to be skeptical of other's. Maybe Wary would fit better... They will automatically feel rejected... i myself feel accpted... Never once have I shunned a person like that...

On the other hand at least the Honesty factor is there and they are being straight forward.... I however never want to know what site that is so it can be avoided!

Yea together we can define what others fall to define and that makes our definition of Punk, Goth, Metal, Hip Hop, and everything inbetween valid, you are right i reject such a throne as that as well. A sub culture definitivly defined is counter to the culture.

I agree with TheatreVampyre they do sound more like a materny then a group of friends. I'm sorry but if I was told all that I would go somewhere else. I won't jump through hoops with people and I know alot of other people won't either.

I am without sound but I will check that out tonight. Being who you are is hard when every body tells us that we need to act a certain way around our peers or else we will not be as original as they strive to be....

those that hijack a sub culture for personal gain are suspect in my book. yet a collective gathering such as VR drew me in because it is a resource collective with connected oppurtunities.

even churches argue over the way to take the sacrament, they spawn splinter groups each dismissing the other as less holy. So the sub cultures should not feel exclusive.

Rank is a bastard son of militia, militants are radicals
radicals have an adgenda out side the subculture usually involving commercial gain. If I can define what is Goth, Metal, Hippy, and i take that to define or pigion hole a generation, I can soon cater to the taste of those that want to be Goth, hip hop, hippy that I had a part in defining. Brillant Ad Executives read demograpics, I have considered the ad industry once.
Surveys are a big money racket. Sell outs (before the phrase was washed as metal jargon, meant to sell out your group identity to someone. when people want to walk into something with a passing fancy for something and want to pose that is just as uncouth as the elitist... they are easy to sound out though I would not want such potential Go-home- mockies around my scene, people that are intrested are dis informed by such come on culturist.

honestly, the only type of Elitism that i practice has to do with the Scene, whose lines are often "blurred" with the Goth Scene, because the fashions worn tend to compliment each other.

i am rather Elitist in the Scene (BDSM) because i am lifestyle and have been practicing for over 20 years.....and i hate the poseurs and hacks who can't even tie a knot properly.

More often than not, those who try to be snobbish or elitist are the most fake and trendy of the bunch.

Love that punk....I was born a decade too late.

A thought to me, I am actually honored that these new Goths have actually adored the culture that I helped to form and have lived for going on two decades.

They worship us and pay us hommage, but in applying their rules and categorizations, the scorn us.

Kids these days...

i can agree that us old school goths that have been goths for over 20 yeas like myself might find that the younger generation perhaps is going on trends versus personal preferences.

hence, the elitism of the old school goth.

And The Cure as well.

Your discussion also make me wonder what will the 3rd generation Punks and Goths be like, how will the 1st and 2nd generations look upon them and be looked at back?

Well said.

I guess that I don't care too much about what the later generations do, as long as the earlier generations are not forgotten, and at least acknowledged for the ground work that was laid down.

For me, being a Rivethead, I am pleased to hear that Industrialist of today still speak kindly of the music from the earlier generations, such as Front 242, KMFDM, Skinny Puppy, and other greats.

Just as I am pleased to listen to the current stuff and enjoy.

That kind of elitism is found everywhere, in all sub cultures.

I went on gothic sites and chats and they were elite with me because I was new and showed a rude behaviour towards me because I am European and not Christian.

The same thing happened in my country, when I made it plain and simple that I like the gothic scene but it doesn't mean that I listen to only goth music and wear black only.

It is contradictory that such individuals call themselves as open minded and anti-conformists.

It happens often, I like something but dislike the people who have my same tastes.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.