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HellHathWings
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17:04:09 Jul 25 2008
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A miracle is an event believed to be caused by interposition of divine intervention by a supernatural being in the universe by which the ordinary course and operation of Nature is suspended, or modified. It is derived from the Latin word miraculum meaning "something wonderful".

Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle


Examples of miracles come from all around. I will point out a few from the Bible:

Moses Parting Water
Jesus being Reincarnated
Jesus changing water into wine
Jesus healing the lame and the blind
etc.


What is a miracle really? Is it fairy tale or real? What evidence proves existence or non-existence of miracles?

Do you believe in them? Have you seen them? Tell us about them and your experiences.

Your responses do not have to be on a religious level.



Note: This is not for bashing religion!!!! Bashing religion in this thread may get you suspended as you were warned.




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cadrewolf
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17:24:12 Jul 25 2008
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As catholic I do believe in mircles, not just from the bible but for every day life, mircles of life being born everyday. a mircle a friend survives a massive heart attack, and the mircles of this mother earth, when we stop to smell the flowers once in awhile we do discover things we pass in evreyday in life. Mircles seem to happen and if by chance we are there at the right time to witness them.



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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17:24:19 Jul 25 2008
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Miracles can be very real based on what your views are. I believe a miracle is an occurance that is believed to be impossible. Like a human baby walking only a month after birth, that would be a miracle. I remember once seeing a man on the Maury show who was driving his car down the road at night. An on-coming car apparently ran over a pole and shot directly at this man's car. The pole broke through the window and went directly into the man's head. He was not dead, had not become mentally challenged, and barely left a scar. That, my friend, is a miracle.



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disposablexteen
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17:36:35 Jul 25 2008
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Miracle could also be a coincidence. Someone saving someone else from getting hit by a bus. Surviving cancer. ECT. I myself have never experienced anything like a miracle. I think you have to have some sort of faith in god or a higher power to believe that a miracle could actually happen./ Maybe that is why it does not happen to some of us. I do however believe in fate, which might be the same thing.



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Wolvie
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17:59:21 Jul 25 2008
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The fact that we even exist is a miracle. The odds of us existing is infinity to 1 against it. If any one of an infinite number of variables of our existence would have been different in the slightest we would not have ever survived to exist now. No one can convince me that happened by chance. I have known people that have survived diseases years longer than doctors said was possible. Take a look at your hand sometime and just think about everything you can do with it and how amazing just the human hand is. Can you really believe that happened by chance?



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UMBRAxDExVIR
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18:06:02 Jul 25 2008
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Very true wolvie. I will agree with you on that one. But does that mean that the other life forces on other planets in other galaxies are an infinte to 1 chance as well?



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Veela
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00:09:51 Jul 26 2008
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I believe in miracles, and I know of some amazing things that have happened.
I know this guy who was in a wheel chair for many years and was told he would never walk again after being in a accident. Who now walks!
This is one of many!!!



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DeadlyXDesire
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00:27:36 Jul 26 2008
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Miracles occur everyday..it is how we view the events that forms it in our minds and what it means to us.

The birth of each one of my children were all miracles...especially my youngest as I almost died when I was pregnant with him...the nurses and doctors at the hospital even nicknamed me the "miracle patient". It truly was a miracle that either one of us survived.



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CryingDutchess
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00:34:52 Jul 26 2008
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"Miracles" are tangibles -- not stories about someone's brother's cousin's friend's old army captain. Not to let the air out of some bubbles, but do you really think a man with a staff was parting the Red Sea to have his people escape? If you do, then I only wonder where the "miracle" was during the holocaust. I think the Egyptians did not do in the Jews quite like Hitler.



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StarrOfCrimson
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01:19:36 Jul 26 2008
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i think miracles are rather tricky. To someone else, your miracle might be someone else's nightmare. I believe a miracle is a leap of faith that happens when people pray for the best, when a situation turns into your favor, its rather a test of playing your cards right.



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XTCraver
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01:24:17 Jul 26 2008
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I found a bowl (smoking one) in front of a convenient store about a month ago and ever since i've been having very lucky incidents. I always find the coolest things now. everybody gives me free things randomly all the time now. i found $15 on the ground today. and I got out of being arrested yesterday. we were drinking and the cops searched everybody except for me and the people on the bench smoking with me. i thought that was crazy.



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HellHathWings
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14:29:01 Jul 26 2008
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What was in the bowl that was smoking? It's magical properties good have been luck and/or protection and/or invisibility. I see qualities of all three.

I have a journaling of my most recent travels of all the little things like that. Finding money in the game rooms. Someone giving me 6 packs of cigs. The meals people were buying for me. All the lucky things. I cannot explain why it happened either.



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mysticwinds
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14:51:38 Jul 26 2008
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miracles to me is having a operation go well. To also take the little things in life we take for granted. The beauty of a sunset, the full moon, the stars. A newborn child. To be able to overcome our fears, to have our dreams come true.

Each of us are a miracle.



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RaggedyAndy
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15:40:14 Jul 26 2008
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I still think of life, in itself, a miracle. I've never had any children, so I cannot tell you how it personally feels to watch a baby, borne of yourself and someone you love, grow up. But the very idea that humans, and other creatures, can procreate and continue the life cycle through generations, never ceases to amaze me.

The cycle of nature is a miracle--to see the changes of the 4 seasons. To see a tree, naked of its leaves in winter, and in spring see the cycle of life begin again.

A miracle is also seeing how the world has progressed through time. To see how civilizations have struggled, learned, adapted, advanced and changed through the eras. And we are fortunate to have archeological records and findings in the fields of medicine, science, technology from these progressions that we can look at and study to better ourselves.



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DeadlyXDesire
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15:41:33 Jul 26 2008
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mysticwinds....very well put...miracles are around us everyday and yes we each are a miracle in itself. It is how we view things that we take for granted sometimes. We just need to take the time to truly look and see the miracles that are always taking place around us.



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XSilverxMoonxNightX
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16:47:34 Jul 26 2008
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A miracle was already defined as to what it is as for it being real I guess to each his own if you believe ithey are reall then yes they are. other people who so called live "Realistically!" and I stress that b/c many do tend to overlook a miracle when one accures and would say oh it was just luck or it was something that had a logical explanation for it's accurence! do I believe in Miracles yes y? b/c I've lived through many things that many people wouldn't have normally lived through. evidece is something u just can't obtain when it comes to a miracle y? u ask well a miracle is something no one is ready for at just any givin point in time and capturing a photograph or having it on film is just not always going to happen it is a personal experince such as witnessing a paranormal phenomena it isn't something u can always see and not something that people are always ready for. but I wouldn't call it impossible to capture evidece or what we might call evidence.



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sweetblooded
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17:10:51 Jul 26 2008
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some miracles can be proven because of the evidence left in history. Some miracles that have been preformed are the healing of the sick and that can be medically proven that a child had a tumor and then it was healed. Others like Ark and the flooding of the earth they did find pieces of boat on the top of a mountain and how else would it get there. So they can be proven that they happen maybe not who causes them to happen.



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Pai
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17:11:33 Jul 26 2008
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Miracles seem to only happen when humans see and name them as such. Again I refer to the question
"If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, does it make a sound?"

The question is meant to make people think, do we acknowledge such happenings unless we're there to see it?

The term "miracle" seems to have become much more broad. For example "The miracle of birth."

Is it really a miracle by some standards? Are miracles just things that cannot be explained?

I think things are more about logic. A tornado destroys a house and tosses a family around and yet everyone lives, including a toddler who is found covered in mud. Is it a miracle? I don't think so...
If you avoid slamming into debris, if you don't fall from somewhere too high, if you don't get struck by lightning, you can survive.

A dog saves a person's life. A miracle? I don't know... I think it's stupid to assume that it's a miracle if an animal can sense danger and knows how to help. Animals ARE intelligent, they are capable of caring.

more often than not, I think miracles are things that just happen and get labed as miracles because people like the concept.



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HellHathWings
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17:34:39 Jul 26 2008
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sweetblooded wrote:

some miracles can be proven because of the evidence left in history.


My person believe is that if I do not see it, it is not proven.

Ex: Can we go to a Museum and see the parted waters or even go to the place of its supposed happening?

Proof such as "because an apostle said so", "because it is written in the bible" will never work for me. The bible talks about false prophets as there are many. The bible can not be fully trusted as it has been handed down through so many hands and opinions by people who want to be known or confuse others.

No Disrespect is meant by this.



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DeadlyXDesire
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18:04:13 Jul 26 2008
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Here is a definition that I found along with many others but the one that I think fits this situation:

miracle

noun
1. any amazing or wonderful occurrence
2. a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.



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HellHathWings
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18:24:20 Jul 26 2008
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1. any amazing or wonderful occurrence

Ex: It is amazing and wonderful how HTML works. But it is not a miracle. This definition does not prove that miracles exist.


2. a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent

For those that do not believe in supernatural or divine anything, miracles, by this definition, don't exist.


Just my rebuttal.



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DeadlyXDesire
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21:57:33 Jul 26 2008
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I respect you viewpoint HHW...but here is something to ponder or to look at in a different light:

Here is what you posted:

1. any amazing or wonderful occurrence

Ex: It is amazing and wonderful how HTML works. But it is not a miracle. This definition does not prove that miracles exist.

How about putting it this way... ex: The miracle of today's technology has made many things possible.



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Vipersangel
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22:06:15 Jul 26 2008
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I believe in miracles. a 5 year old boy was hit at a chruch it ran over his head and the swelling was tremendous. at the hospital they decided to air lift him to the University Hospital but told the parents that he might not make the trip as his brain was swelling termensouly. the church member laid there hands on the boy and prayed before he left. the parents drove over 300 miles to be with him and when they walked in the room he was awake and talking. the doctor said when he got there the swelling was completely down and that he is fine. that was a miracle to me.



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Tzaddi
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23:19:54 Jul 26 2008
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I am not religious as far as Christianity, but I do believe in miracles. I had a white, long haired cat I loved very much. Her name was Tzaddi, which means the "star" in the Thoth tarot deck. She died of cancer and I really missed her.One day out of the blue, I decided to go to the animal shelter for a kitten. When I got there I didn't see any right away. When I made my final turn, there was an entire cage filled with white long haired kittens with splashes of light gray on their heads. I bent down to see them, and this one came right up to me as if to say"take me", which I did. When I told them my choice they asked me if Ii wanted to see her. I said no need, she is the one I want. To my surprise, they had named her "Star."

Could be a coincidence, but I like to believe it was a miracle.



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MadameButterfly
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01:43:34 Jul 27 2008
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Miracles can be real or fake or simply tricks of the mind. Some miracles were done in the past and presents by those who have the right and gift to do so. But a true miracle wont be done in the intent to gain money, notoriety , public view, power or anything, a true miracle is don’t in the intent to heal or stop what is causing harm. I mean Jesus always told those he heal to not reveal to not talk about it except to the high priest, a proof that he had both the right and power to do it.

These days little miracles happen only the true ones are kept in private, many fakes will go and do tv shows about it or ask for money or “donation” many will seek power, notoriety and control over others in order to gain something. I believe there are legitimate miracles, just not the ones we see in big flashy letters and dollars signs.



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AlwaysViolet
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02:05:00 Jul 27 2008
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Miracles are all around us everyday! Too many of us take them for granted and don't realize them for the blessing that they are. Then we don't see them for what they are when they happen either, just think it's a random part of the day or some strange event. You have to have your eyes open to how amazing it is that what just happened, actually took place. If more people identified everything as a miracle and a blessing, they would feel better about the day and their lives. Too many people focus on negative events and don't realize that anything good happened during the day.



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Bloodmother
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02:44:53 Jul 27 2008
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I was weaned on miracles and martyrs. I don't believe in any of the legendary miracles as outlined in the main religious books, most of which (the stories, parables, epistles) were passed on as oral tradition for centuries by HUMANS before it was written down.

I do think there are many as yet unexplained phenomena in the world. Doesn't mean they're miracles. Coincidence and serendipity make the world interesting, but does not occur through divine intervention.



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VampFriend
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03:02:11 Jul 27 2008
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I do believe in miracles....it was a miracle that my dog survived three attacks by three other dogs.



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gusion
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03:29:58 Jul 27 2008
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I do not believe in miracles,as a example) they seem kind of like a lottery ticket. when one wins it they say it is a miracle and god knows i need the money. well we all need the money.

I go after things to make good things happen. maybe if I sat and waited on good to fall in my lap then it mite be a miracle and until that happens then I may believe.



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HellHathWings
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04:09:10 Jul 27 2008
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it could be seen as a miracle that we figure out how to make computers and such and how the internet was created....



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SalemsxAngel
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04:56:48 Jul 27 2008
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I myself very much believe in them. I have experienced many so far. For example my mother an her health issues. A few years back she fell very i'll an her chances of living were VERY slim. She made it out, an I know in my heart that was a miracle. It changed me. I never really believed in them until she fell i'll even then my faith an everything else was pretty low at that point, until she made it thru.



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darkenedhope
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06:06:15 Jul 27 2008
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To me a miracle is an amazing thing that occurs without a plausible explanation, liken to an "act of God".



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lavisbre
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06:12:34 Jul 27 2008
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Miracles happen in hospitals, my dad has had a total by heart bypass
I watched my daughter get a pacemaker .. total miracle.
Personally I don’t care for myths of wine and fish.
Truth is with your eyes and heart.

We cant give enough support money or gratitude to the hospitals of the world.



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LeopardGoddess
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06:38:34 Jul 27 2008
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I'm still waiting on a miracle to happen so I really can't answer that. I would like to believe in them but at this point, I don't really know.



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MorbidMorte
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10:24:09 Jul 27 2008
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I think a miracle is considered to be things such as childbirth, true love, living. Those simple things are anything anyone would be more than grateful for.



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DeadlyXDesire
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16:34:08 Jul 27 2008
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Distortion..I completely agree as one of the definition of a miracle is anything amazing and wonderous...so for me I agree that the little things in life that we take for granted are miracles..such as childbirth..love..friendship..and the beauty of nature herself are all miracles.



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VAMPIREBLONDEE
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16:35:20 Jul 27 2008
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I believe in miracles...but how I interpret a miracle may be diferent than the next person. I believe in the miracles I have actually seen happen in my life and my daughter's life...the miracle of survival , the miracle we are here, ...way too long to even explain here.



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DeadlyXDesire
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16:51:43 Jul 27 2008
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ok many here believe that a miracle is divine intervention from God or a higher being..depending on your beliefs...in being said...didn't the higher powers give us the miracle of life and created all in which we see everday such as nature...so really in essence...since those did come about due to a higher power would they not be miracles by definition or belief?



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Bloodmother
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17:00:22 Jul 27 2008
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A sub-category of miracle might be termed "wondrous."

This would include life and nature, our children.

Also wondrous are people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, who have created dynasties, but who choose to give back so much.



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CryingDutchess
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18:37:38 Jul 27 2008
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Okay, I am completely on-board with life's everyday miracles: births, life-rescuing, etc
I just don't believe in handing off every positive event in life to a divine being. I give people a bit more credit than that... Hmm, that shouldn't make me a blasphemer???



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BadAlice
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21:55:43 Jul 27 2008
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Sure, I believe it could be coincidence, just plain skill, good-timing, reflexes, preparedness... Miracles can be just being ready to react and reacting successfully when the time comes. I realize that over-simplifies the concept...



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darknessgalore
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23:25:37 Jul 27 2008
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yea i do believe that miracles do happen.i have read so many articles and in books which is hard to believe but there are certain evidences to prove them all correct.



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HellHathWings
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03:52:20 Jul 28 2008
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Do you think that people throw the word Miracle on too many things?



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Okami
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I could see that happening but as most people have already stated everything is a miracle.

I have one good example: All the people that have been hit by lighting and survived, 3 million volts through the body and Live.



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LivNdedGirl
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the fact iam alive after 4 rounds of cancer, restrictive lung disease and supperior vena cava syndrome even the doctors were baffled at how i still live and breathe personally i think it sucks cause they gave me quanity of life mot quality sooo its a miricle to some but for me feels more like a curse



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Majique
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06:43:20 Jul 28 2008
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I have never seen the religious ideals on what a miracle is. But just stepping out your door or looking in a mirror and to me you are looking at a miracle.

The human body being the greatest miracle of all! Then there is nature.

Then yet, being cured of cancer, a near miss from being hit on the head with a brick or finding some special friends in my life can all be classed as miracles.

It all boils down to what you consider a miracle is. All around me is divine intervention and creation.

As for biblical miracles I can't help but view these stories as just that stories. Once upon a time man thought fire was a miracle and the wheel. Because they had primitive minds.

Now a days our intellect is higher and there for we see the truth in the things around us.



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Wolvie
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07:42:35 Jul 28 2008
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LoNA: in my opinion I would say yes because I believe God created everything.

Dutchess: maybe the fact that a large majority Jews don't accept Christ and were largely responsible for the crucifixion of Christ had something to do with that. But then again you could look at it another way, it could be considered miracle the Jewish faith survived the holocaust. Another thing look how much the Christians suffered during the Roman empire. Every religion in the world has had it's followers persecuted at 1 time or another. It's a wonder anyone admits to believing in anything and yet some people do even if they know they will be killed for it like that girl at columbine high school was.



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Wolvie
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15:58:28 Jul 28 2008
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Personally I don't believe that the word is used enough because so many people don't want to see them. Someone said that people are not given enough credit like it's the people that are responsible, but they are merely a tool. I'm not denying that they do play an important role. If you look at the miracles described in the Bible most are done through a person. The same is true in other religions as well.



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Li
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19:11:09 Jul 28 2008
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I most definitely believe in miracles. I think small miracles happen everyday. We just don't recognize them.

When I look at my daughter, I see a miracle. Heck, when I look at me I see a miracle. My pregnancy and delivery were horrible and my family thought for sure they'd lost us both, a few different times. You may say that medical intervention saved us, but there was nothing medical about our inner strength...and that's what pulled us through.



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MorbidMorte
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23:48:39 Jul 28 2008
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I actually think the word miracle isn't thrown on enough things. Usually it's just used for those things that 'happen' every once in a while to those of religious beliefs.



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MirageInAComa
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23:58:13 Jul 28 2008
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A miracle happens when you least expect it.

It comes in many forms.

Mine came when I met someone that, by sheer luck, we started talking about someone I knew that needed a kidney transplant.

I had barely known this person for less than a year.

She gave the other person one of her kidneys. She didn't even know him.

She says I was the catalyst.

I helped a miracle happen without even trying.



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XAngelXOfXDarknessX
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01:18:32 Jul 31 2008
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I believe that miracles happen for a reason. I mean honestly, would someone make up stuff if it didn't happen> What would someone be able to gain from falsely stating something? nothing, except that they are a liar. So I myself believe in miracles.



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EvilBeing
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01:31:56 Jul 31 2008
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I myself have never seen a miracle but i do believe in them because their so many religons that mention them but who knows we all might see one some day or one might of happened already and we just dont know it i hope one happens to me.



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XAngelXOfXDarknessX
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02:12:12 Jul 31 2008
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Witnessing a miracle would be something that I personally would like to see.



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AlwaysViolet
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02:28:36 Jul 31 2008
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I read above that Gusion had said that the occurrence of miracles being more like the odds of the lottery, which is irony because I believe that winning the lottery would be a miracle itself. Any situation where you beat the odds is a miracle. But if you'd like to compare it to winning the lottery, I guess that isn't a bad comparison. But in reality miracles happen more often... and it can only help to do things to bring good happenings your way. Karma and such!



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vipersangel2
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03:29:20 Jul 31 2008
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Personnally I believe that miracles do exist. They are events controlled by a being who has surpassed limits in their own mind. I have found that if a person has a strong will and determination for sommething to happen. That they can make these events happen. An example is an aceint form of catholic prayer, where a person will repeat what they wish to change in the world, while prostrating themselves until they enter an almost meditave state. This if done with larger groups of people will if done correctly be able to alter the physicle world.. in thoery, the practice has not been tested in almost two hundred years and reports of resutls are questionable, written by church officials. But in thoery it is entirly possible that most 'miracles' are actually forces of extreme human will. So yes, miracles are real, but are not divine in essencence.



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XAngelXOfXDarknessX
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19:42:58 Aug 01 2008
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Lottery is something the people in society came up with, so people spend their money on a ticket, hoping it's a winner >_< So there is no miracle there



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Ciardha
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19:50:32 Aug 01 2008
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I hope that miracles are real i need one right now i am going threw my owen privet hell
And i hope it all ends up ok



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MorbidMorte
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21:20:09 Aug 01 2008
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Wolvie -


If something like that happened don't you think it would be more of a chance of said person somehow rigging the lottery in a way?



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dabbler
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21:24:36 Aug 01 2008
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I see miracles becoming gratuitous.



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HellHathWings
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22:35:47 Aug 01 2008
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dabbler, do you mean existing without a reason?

as in we can not explain



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dabbler
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23:10:41 Aug 01 2008
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It just seems like the label is placed on every little thing, there is a critiria for some thing to be miraculous .. I have heard things called miricles that actually had more to do with professional people doing their jobs in an exeptional matter. Evil I feel has the same glib application .. "This is evil.. thats evil.. gets to the point that it becomes like the boy who cried wolf.. weather miricles are real or not is not my point, but how many can actually be set as miricles..? thats my angle.



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XTCraver
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23:23:49 Aug 01 2008
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come to think of it, i really don't think there's such thing as miracles... the term, to me, is overrated.



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Languor
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04:34:10 Aug 02 2008
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i dont belive in Miracles. ive lost too much to start beliving. maybe it just whats written in the stars that tell us our fate



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Wolvie
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16:18:19 Aug 02 2008
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I never said that winning the lottery was a miracle. Someone said that the odds of a miracle happening is like the odds of winning the lottery. I just pointed out that people win the lottery all the time.



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markus666
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19:17:29 Aug 02 2008
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Miracle. Can you prove it. There is no intervention from "above". Everything happen because is suppose to happen.



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Riallisa
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20:28:33 Aug 02 2008
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I've got a two-year-old, just surviving a day with a two-year-old is a miracle hehe...



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RaineVampire
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20:41:47 Aug 02 2008
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i would personally define a miracle as an event that probably wouldn´t happen without the help of some external power...
but there are a lot of explanations for miracles... and the mind is one of them...
the power of mind is unmeasurable...you can wish and get... so probably if you´re in danger or in a bad situation, you can command and make things move or happen...
i´ve seen that and it´s incredible how powerful the mind can be...



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MorbidMorte
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02:14:59 Aug 03 2008
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How exactly can you wish and get? You're saying if I wish for something I'll get it?



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Angitia41
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00:19:29 Oct 26 2008
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There are no such things as miracles. Your mind thinks and does to react to something and that becomes a miracle. Like healing yourself



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BornfromDeath
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00:22:17 Oct 26 2008
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i believe in miracles... i've seen a few happen.... some to friends and some to close family....



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Beastt17
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03:46:16 Oct 26 2008
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Q: "What is a miracle really?"

A concept of imagination and fancy emerging from a time when humans held no concept of objectivity.
---

Q: "Is it fairy tale or real?"

Given only those two options; Fair tale.
---

Q: "What evidence proves existence or non-existence of miracles?"

Only subjective evidence. For example: I don't know how to explain what happened, therefore, what happened is a "miracle" because I choose to proclaim it as such. Subjective evidence is meaningless.
---

Q: "Do you believe in them?"

No
---

Q: "Have you seen them?"

No. No one ever has though many still claim to have witnessed them.
---

Q: "Tell us about them and your experiences."

Given my stance, there is nothing to tell. They're simply a fanciful tale, dreamed up to explain things ancient primitive men were unable to explain via realistic means.


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ScarFace
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21:41:06 Nov 03 2008
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Don't really believe in Miracles..



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dabbler
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21:49:49 Nov 03 2008
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The cost of miracles is devotion. If one is not devoted enough then one cannot be blessed with miracles, actually one is likely to be tested by their god whilst lacking devotion. Evil is only evil when god is not testing his/her devotees.



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Obscurity
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22:03:02 Nov 03 2008
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I believe in miracles.

My personal definition of a miracle is divine intervention that has changed the course of a situation to from the end of all worst to the promise of a better tomorrow.
A situation where you will learn and grow from and wear a scar on your soul so you are always reminded of the times when that situation.

To each person a divine intervention can have different meanings. Therefore a miracle to one may not seem like a miracle to someone else. In order to actually have some concrete evidence to prove if a miracle is real or fantasy there would have to be a very specific line by line definition of what constitutes a divine intervention. Without that I would see it as nothing more than just a theory that someone was stating.

I do disagree with your example of using somethings in the bible as a example of miracles. Those who do not believe in the book will see it as nothing more but miracles being fairy tales that someone has chosen to write down and share with the world. And Yes, I do believe that you can believe in a higher power and not believe in the book.

I believe I have been around miracles. The times when I should have faced death and came out alive. The times when some have been only given a few months to live and then continue on until they are old and grey. I think those are miracles. Very wonderful miracles.



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coldkisses
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01:49:36 Nov 04 2008
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it's a miracle i'm alive right now
i could have been born with down syndrome
then i would have been aborted

soz, i think i'm pretty damn lucky



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Beastt17
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07:03:16 Nov 04 2008
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Re: "it's a miracle i'm alive right now
i could have been born with down syndrome
then i would have been aborted"


Given the mechanics, chemistry and electrical activity in your body, alive is the only thing you can be. Were all of those processes functioning as they are and you were not alive, then there is room to suggest supernatural intervention.

Given that down-syndrome is the rarity and not having down-syndrome is very, very common, you seem to be suggesting that miracles are the yawn of mere common-place events while the absence of miracles are quite rare. The other thing such an idea suggests is that for some reason, some supernatural entity has selected those with down-syndrome to be afflicted with this disorder and to suffer for not receiving the benefits of their miraculous protection.

Evolution/genetics does a much better job of explaining the whole situation and doesn't find the need to turn blame for such afflictions toward any divine being or consciousness. Of course, what you give up in the exchange, is the belief that a supernatural entity has found you more worthy of genetic normalcy, while selecting a relative few to suffer for lack of granted miraculous privilege.



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Kaynan
Kaynan

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16:37:57 Nov 04 2008
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Everyone has their own ideas of what a miracle can be.
For me a miracle isn't a tale of someone walking on water ect its someone who was predicted 6 months to live and outlived those 6 months and the next 6, so on and so forth.
That wasn't a push at religeon was just me voicing my opinion :)



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Beastt17
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17:07:57 Nov 04 2008
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It would seem that to many, a "miracle", is simply beating the odds. I find that odd in itself. If one is given a 20% chance of surviving and they do survive, then they were fully within the odds. Having a 20% chance doesn't mean no chance. It means 1 in 5. In order for the odds to be what they are, one person in five, with a 20% chance must survive. So it's not a miracle anymore than is rolling a six on a die (1 in 6 odds).

The other thing of note is that if one has a 1 in 100 chance of dying from an affliction and they do die, no one seems to want to call that a miracle, even though it was strictly against the odds. Of course, once again, if the last 99 people survived, then it's strictly within the odds, but still of a vast minority for the potential outcomes.

For some even that for which the odds are completely in their favor can be classified as a "miracle", just so long as they're pleased with the outcome. So it appears that a miracle, to many, is nothing more than a positive outcome.

So not running out of gas can be a miracle, but seems more miraculous if one is driving through a blizzard at night, far from any signs of civilization, than if one doesn't run out of gas while driving around the block to their mother's house.

Why must a miracle always work to the benefit of the person who suggests divine intervention? Hitler credited providence when he unwittingly escaped an assassination attempt by leaving the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual in 1939. So in his assessment, his survival was a miracle and he was a devoutly religious man. He survived and his survival was strictly against the odds so his suggestion that it was a miracle certainly seems to fit with what others consider a miracle to be. But his survival meant the death of millions. So was it a miracle? Was it actually divine intervention? Or was it simply his perspective that it was a miraculous event? Does one person's perspective out-weigh that of another and render a miraculous event other than miraculous?

That's all these suggestions seem to be -- perspective. If one favors one potential outcome over others, and receives that outcome, then they want to call the outcome a "miracle". But what is favorable for one may be tragically unfavorable for another. If we use favor to classify miracles, the suggestion is that the intervening supernatural power must always be benevolent, and benevolence is often nothing more than a matter of perspective.

Some people do indeed live on well past the point where medical professionals have predicted their death. But even most medical professionals recognize that in offering a prognosis, there is a distinct concern for legal and civil liabilities. If you tell someone they are going to survive and they don't, you can plan on getting hit with a malpractice suit. If you tell someone they're going to die and they live, everyone is happy and simply chalks it up to divine providence. So which prognosis would you make if the odds were 50/50?

Is surviving when the odds were 1 in 2, really a miracle? Or does it depend upon who you are and how many people might hate you?



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dabbler
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18:58:27 Nov 04 2008
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When a rescue team is in top form, and the response is exceptional, gods get the credit.



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FallenmaidenAlice24
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20:42:30 Nov 04 2008
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i believe in miricles depending on what it is but lately i dont know what 2 believe any more i doubt my whole existence but its off topic



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NartinaLeMaliki
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21:29:46 Nov 04 2008
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I've never really believed in miracles. To me, Miracles have always held a sense of spontaneity to them, and I've always believed that everything happens for a reason.


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La6Muerte66
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01:35:28 Nov 05 2008
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Closest thing I can think of to a genuine miracle is Stephen Hawking surviving Lou Gherig's Disease for so long. And that's hardly a miracle; it's just REALLY unlikely.



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20:29:06 Nov 05 2008
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it was a Miracle when the doctors gave me a second chance of life



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Rastaferal
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20:36:01 Nov 05 2008
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the parting of the red sea has been brought up by many in this thread as a prima facie miracle that they doubt ever having occurred. Allow me to interject this:


"The scene where Moses parts the waves and leads the ‘Israelites’ across the Red Sea is one of the most well known stories in the ‘Bible’.
Mr.Naum Wolzinger, from St.Petersburg, said it was to do with the changing of the tide; he says there is a reef 6m or 7m under the water that runs from one bank of the Gulf of Suez to the other at the spot where the ‘Exodus’ occurred.

He said depending on the movement of the tides — and if there was a strong wind — it was possible to cross the Red Sea keeping your feet almost dry.


Bias edited from “Scientist claims to explain parting of the waves”, Ananova 2004-01-21 We 13:21 "



In addition to that reef there are also several low lying sandbars that would serve equally well as an escape route with a strong wind from the east and at low tide. Picture this, The Jews, fleeing, find themselves hemmed in by the northern tongue of the Red Sea, and the Egyptian wall, and on either side were mountains. The Jews need some luck, or a miracle if you want to attribute divine intervention to it, to escape. Or was it something else? Did they KNOW something about this terrain that others did not? Did they know of a secret escape that would allow them to just dissappear if crossing it unobserved? Why would you lead yourself into a spot with no exit when you had other places to go that left you room to run? But this night, they are trapped because an east wind has failed to blow on previous nights... They pray for help, maybe Moses even raises his arms (LOL), and a strong east wind blows up along with the tide lowering then or within a few hours while they are still praying, to expose thier escape route behind them. They quiely and slowly withdraw under cover of darkness and behind thier fires. As dawn breaks, the Egyptians see thier quarry has eluding them, the last of the million+ jews fleeing across the land bridge. They immediately pursue, but are caught and drown by 10-15+ ft. waves crashing upon them as the tide and winds change. Remember kids, this phenomenon is not science fiction, it is science fact. It has been observed. Whether or not it happened this way is debateable but it is a VERY strong possibility. Whether you want to attribute it to luck, fortuitous circumstances, good planning or divine intervention (miracle) is also debateable.



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Beastt17
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21:04:14 Nov 05 2008
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CountessOfshadows,

What did the doctors do to give you a second chance at life and why should they not receive the credit?



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by TheRat on Oct 03 2010  •

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