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… A while back I asked a question, similar to this, but 30 days have passed.
So… Do you think it is possible, that with conscious foreknowledge, you can change the future??

It happens on a daily basis. Yet, are we really in control of the future or do the events that unfold control the certainty of the outcome?

just depends on your philosophy

if you think things are already set down, then the answer would be ...no


if you think that each thing that happens is a free flowing event based completely on actions...

then i am changing the future by writing this down right now (instead of getting on with my yard work!) lol

~W~

Anyone with true foreknowledge can change what would otherwise be. Every action we take or do not take changes what will be, does it not?

Have you seen the movie Minority Report with Tom Cruise? That is what came to my mind...they have their whole pre-crime set up and they stop murders before they happen because the pre-cogs can see into the future.

Well Agatha (female pre-cog) tells him that even though the events have already happened in the future, he has seen the future and can choose to change it.

Even though this is a reference to a sci-fi movie I think it gets the point across.

And even if you believe that everything has already been layed out to happen...do you really think that if you could see a tragedy in your future you would be completely incapable of preventing it?

The future is not determined, or predestined.

If I suspect something will result from a certain action, or inaction, I can intervene, and if the action is corrected, or an action is taken then the potential outcome will be diverted.

The more immanent the potential outcome the less effective any intervention will be.

thats just what destiny wants you to think

The future unfolds every day - every action we take changes the future, whether we view it that way or not.

I think a lot of people confuse changing the future with changing the past to affect the present and make it different, thereby hoping for a more favorable future.

There is no pre-knowledge of the future... we can only guess what might happen based on our knowledge of the past and present.

and learn from past mistakes

an interesting exercise that we used to do in OCS is to think of an action you might take, then start to work out the possible repercussions as far as you can. its a bit like playing chess. learning to think a number of moves ahead.

~W~

I think we can only control our actions in our enviroment
We cannot control or change things that is not ours to control.
Ther would be no wars, no hunger, if we could control change.

Dabbler, Birra.. Thank you.

Interesting certainly.. though I do have a moderately different point of view: hence seeking the input.

you could with foreknowledge quite possibly change an event yet to happen

See, that's the point: I'm talking of belief, as well.
I know, [careful choice of words] I know that I have foreknowledge, yet.. I also acknowledge.. I darn well could be wrong.. hence the thread.

Pre-knowledge as being what, a premonition?

If I had a dream and in that dream it showed me that I would crash the car on the way to work then I would drive a different route. Thus changing the future, but am I?

Because the future is not able to be set in stone because of all the variables! But again thinking outside of the box if those variables are set also in stone then we infact are following destiny!

I think...lol

but what if the future IS set in stone? what if your dream only made you do what you were supposed to do in the first place?
~W~

Well we wouldn't have the term "nothing is set in stone" now would we? To have our destinies set in stone would mean that we would literally have no free will in our ways of life, which I personally don't believe in. And as for people not being able to see into the future, would be mistaken. There are people who can and do this ALL the time. Some people can see things coming right before it happens. Being able to change it? Depends on how far you are able to see. If you can master your "sight" abilities and are able to push them deeper into future time, I think a person would be able to do many a great thing to alter or change something to whatever they wish.

but if you can see it before it happens, doesnt that mean that time is a bit like movie that has already been filmed....
have you ever seen a movie and you didnt want it to end the way it did? so your yelling at the person on the screen to not do something...

and every time they do it.


i think that the only way to know the future somehow is if you can connect to the reality of it. if its a reality, that means that everything has already happened....the past and the future are the same.

if you cant change the past, how can you change the future?

sorry...just musing
~W~

The Way I see it is most people who claim to be able to forecast the future are Pessimist, waiting for an accident, so they can affirm their negative projections, basically premonitions are just day dreams, with a dreary edge.. daymares if one would.

I can get an idea through deductive reasoning that a person is not quailfied to handle a certain task, I can observe basic equipment deficency, conciously or not we do this 12 hours a day. This has nothing to do with.., Seeing the future, it is foreshadowing, and very narrowly at that.

why all the mystery of " Should intervene?" as if it is a burden.. all I see of the majority of people claiming premonitions is,"I had an idea something like this would hapopen."


Forecasting is no big deal, and the more one exercises it the better it gets, but if one obseesse, they will miss the Present, and deminish their copacity to fondly retain memories.

wasting brain activity over the fretting of every notion.. for what purpose?

If you forecast something.. be subtle about it to those involved.. no need to make yourself out to be some oracle.

I wasn't speaking about forecasting personally. I was talking about people who are able to see something coming before it actually happens. I have done this myself before.
I was drying my hair before school one day and something inside of me, something pretty instant said, the phone is going to ring. And like 2 seconds goes by and it does. It ended up being my mom.

I don't know if the future is already played out LW, but i will say there are a lot of things running through my head atm thinking about the possibilities or theories of why or how we might think it's already pre-determined for us. lol

The mind runs on cues, and routine, in your mind you suspected that it had been a significant time frame without hearing from your mother, your mother knowing some what your schedule opted to call you at a some what convient time.. what fails to be significant is the times you suspect a phone to ring.. but it doesn't, and in some cases people fret over that as well.

Nothing paranornal about it, but it does indicate a person has apt capcity for subconcious deduction.

*

precognition or second sight

“To the present day, no one has come up with a persuasive experimental design that can unambiguously distinguish between telepathy and clairvoyance....Based on the experimental evidence, it is by no means clear that pure telepathy exists per se, nor is it certain that real-time clairvoyance exists." The evidence "can all be accommodated by various forms of precognition."--Dean Radin

Precognition is psychic knowledge of something in advance of its occurrence. The faculty of seeing into the future is called "second sight" if it is not induced by scrying, drugs, trance, or other artificial means.

Since there is no way to distinguish direct communication with another mind from communication with a past or future perception by that or some other mind, there is no way to distinguish telepathy from precognition. There is no way to distinguish telepathy, clairvoyance, retrocognition, or precognition from a mind perceiving directly the akashic record. There is no way to distinguish telepathy, clairvoyance, retrocognition, precognition, or perceiving the akashic record from perceiving what is directly placed in the mind by God (occasionalism). There is no way to distinguish telepathy, clairvoyance, retrocognition, precognition, perceiving the akashic record, or having perceptions directly implanted in our minds by God from perceiving the hidden record of all perceptions in the eleventh dimension that is vibrating in the intersection between the tenth and twelfth dimensions. I could go on, but it would be too annoying.

People can predict the future. We do it all the time, but we usually, if not always, do it by taking into account our experience, knowledge, and surroundings. Some predictions by psychics come true. So do some predictions by non-psychics. No doubt much of our anticipation of the future is unconscious and second nature, but it is based on quite natural and mundane abilities, not on mysterious or supernatural powers.

If a person could provide accurate and detailed descriptions of future events on a regular basis, that person would be celebrated as truly psychic. That no such person has ever existed in recorded history is a sign that stories of people with second sight are mythical exaggerations.

In 1994, biologist Rupert Sheldrake published a report on a psychic dog, Jaytee, a terrier who has precognition (Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home: And Other Unexplained Powers of Animals). In 1998, psychologists Richard Wiseman and Matthew Smith tried to replicate the Jaytee experiment and failed. (The belief in psychic dogs seems to be popular among true believers in the paranormal.)

presentiment

One of the latest attempts at establishing the reality of precognition in a scientific experiment involves measuring galvanic skin response or brain activity (as measure by an fMRI) in presentiment experiments. Presentiment is a feeling that something strange or unusual is about to happen. If the feeling is especially foreboding, it is called a premonition. In presentiment experiments, however, what is measured is not the conscious feeling of anything, but the alleged unconscious effect on a machine of a physical response occurring before a stimulus is presented. Those doing this kind of research have no way of knowing that what they observe on their machines is in any way related to the stimuli they present. Assuming such a connection begs the question. The researchers might equally assume that the electrical resistance of skin in a subject or the blip of color on an fMRI caused the researcher to select the stimulus presented.

In 1993, Dean Radin got the idea "to monitor a person's skin conductance before, during, and after viewing emotional and calm pictures, and then see if the autonomic nervous system responded appropriately before the picture appeared" (2006, p. 184). He eventually did four tests with mixed results, but a meta-analysis saved the day. The first test was small (24 subjects) and he found that the subjects reacted 2 to 3 seconds after the presentation of the stimulus, as measured by a blip on a screen hooked up to a skin conductance measuring device. He also found blips occurring before the stimulus and he calculated their odds against chance at being 500 to 1, for what it's worth.

His second experiment had 50 subjects. All he says about it is that the "results were in the predicted direction, but weren't as strong as those observed in the first experiment." The third experiment had 47 subjects. He says it "resulted in a strong presentiment effect, with odds against chance of 2,500 to 1." The third experiment used different hardware, software, and pictures. The fourth study produced results that "weren't statistically significant."

Radin concludes:

These studies suggest that when the average person is about to see an emotional picture, he or she will respond before that picture appears (under double-blind conditions). (2006, p. 188, emphasis in the original)

That's how Radin sees his work. I see a mixed bag of results that assumes blips on a screen are caused by psychic means. The studies may be double-blind, but they don't use meaningful controls. Radin's kicker, however, is his meta-analysis. He lumped together the data from the four studies and produced a paper published in The Journal of Scientific Exploration (2004) called "Electrodermal Presentiments of Future Emotions." Voila! The odds against chance of getting just the results he got? 125,000 to 1, he says (2006, p. 188).

He concludes his defense of the evidence for presentiment with mention of several "replications," one of which involved testing earthworms. In the earthworm experiment, Radin says that the "results were very nearly statistically significant" (2006, p. 171). How comforting. Other "replications" involved using machines that measure heart rate and electrical activity in the brain, as well as skin conductance. All assumed that the various blips they produced were caused by paranormal phenomena.

"Based on the experimental evidence, it is by no means clear that pure telepathy exists per se, nor is it certain that real-time clairvoyance exists," says Radin. The evidence, he says, "can all be accommodated by various forms of precognition."

scientific evidence for precognition

The strongest evidence for precognition, according to Radin is a meta-analysis of all published reports in English of “forced-choice” experiments on precognition conducted between 1935 and 1987 done by Charles Honorton and Diane Ferrari (1997, p. 113). They found 309 studies in 113 articles by 62 investigators: nearly 2 million trials involving more than 50,000 subjects. There was very little uniformity in these tests. They involved different kinds of guesses (ESP cards, die face, symbols, etc.), different methods of randomization, different size samples, different time intervals between guessing and unveiling, etc. Only 23 of the 62 investigators (37%) got positive results. He doesn’t tell us what percentage of the studies got positive results. Yet, Radin proudly proclaims that the odds against chance of the results were on the order of 1025 to one. “This eliminated chance as a viable explanation,” he says (p. 114). Yes, it certainly does! He also eliminates the file-drawer problem as an explanation because he used some sort of statistical formula (not revealed here) to arrive at 14,268 as the number of papers that would have to be in the drawer to tip these odds back to chance. Radin concludes from this that “the precognition effect had been successfully replicated across many different experimenters.”

Radin notes that Honorton and Ferrari dumped the outliers, the top and bottom 10% (highest and lowest results). They then produced odds against chance of a billion to one. Radin calls this “effectively the same” as the result for all the studies. I don’t think ten million billion billion to one is “effectively the same” as a billion to one, except in the sense that they're both absurd.

When the quality of the studies was evaluated, there was no difference in outcome between the well designed and the poorly designed studies (though the quality of the studies improved over time). Radin thinks this is because the precognitive effect was “remarkably stable” (p. 115). He says Honorton & Ferrari identified eight elements of good experiments for precognition studies, but he only mentions four: 1) specifying how many samples would be collected; 2) planning the method of statistical analysis; 3) using proper randomization methods; and 4) using automated recording. In analyzing variables, they found that 42.6% of the studies that provided trial-by-trial feedback were successful, while none of the studies that didn’t provide such feedback were successful! (If you are not using true randomization, you might be measuring guesses based on pattern recognition rather than precognition.)

Radin thinks that because certain predictions were made that seem to have been validated, it shows that “precognition performance was not merely a statistical oddity” because it seems to vary in ways that made sense “psychologically.” He thinks this suggests some sort of lawful relationship going on that can guide future research. Skeptics might be concerned that a closer look at the randomization techniques and feedback methods might reveal the basis for this apparent lawful relationship. In any case, the whole idea of concluding anything important based on a meta-analysis of this kind seems preposterous. Finally, as psychologist Jim Alcock (2003) has pointed out many times: these researchers don't give the null hypothesis a chance.

At times, Radin seems to lose touch with reality, as when he posits testing for “unconscious precognition” to investigate “the possibility that the mind is in contact with its own future state.” He suggests we test whether future perceptions interfere with present performance on reaction-time tasks, but he doesn’t tell us how he’d do this. He also suggests we test whether future emotional states are detectable in present nervous system activity (p. 116). Again, he gives no hints as to what he might be talking about. Even if we found, for example, that certain nervous system activity (such as the production of adrenalin) precedes the feeling of anxiety, that would have no bearing on the precognition issue. (Maybe Radin was having a presentiment of experiments on presentiment that he would do later! In Entangled Minds [pp.166-168] he reports on the four small experiments he did on presentiment that were mentioned above. He got mixed results, but when he did a meta-analysis, guess what? He found that his results showed odds of 125,000 to 1

Dabbler, in my case, it was the feeling that it gave off within those seconds. I know that it's hard for some people to grasp the concept of what i mean exactly and would like to give it a more realistic sound to it, but not everything some people experience can be explained away so easily. I would normally agree with you on your suggestion but i have to agree to disagree because of the feeling that i had during the time that it happened.

It is not as uncommon as it would seem, the specifics are semantics.. is it Celestial.. ethereal? No, is it paranormal.. no

it is just the human brain doing what it naturally does. The desire for it to be supernatural, or mystic is understandable.. but it is rather benign when it comes down to it, and it also comes down to application, and practicallity, what greater purpse is served by a "Cosmic tingle" a moment before a phone rings?

Personally I would rather be alert to inconsistencies, and interrupted routine activity, then to be precognitive minded.

Is ones present so irriitable, and uncomfortable that they would invest so much into idealizing the split moment "future"?

Or perhaps it has a deeper meaning Dabs. Maybe it's moments like those that are to awake us to things that we may have not otherwise considered possible? Sure a phone ring in a moment in time might come off as nothing, but i don't see it that way. I see it as a moment in teaching me personally, and maybe others too that have had such experiences in their lives, to simply be put out there for us to grasp as part of our spiritual learning or paths.

for the record, I do feel that the mind is remarkable in its ability to register at such a capacity.

I just take it a notch down from fantastical, to remarkable.

study of the physiology of the brain, and currents of the brain have taken away fodder that psuedo.. junk science has held as scraps of evidence for phenomenal far fetched notions.

Their sole goal tends to be wringing their hands and saying.. "Well I guess we'll never know.." yet then they raced off to get grant money.. as if they don't want to solve what they declare a mystery..

explain away.. "Not everything can be explained away.'

see I would reason that by categorizing something as definitive precognition.. is in actuality explaining it away.

Wouldn't you rather be cognitive of of being alert, to be able to intervene in even a limited capacity to the deductions of your semi-conscious mind..? You can exercise such things, but first you might separate fantastical
from real potential.

flipping this over from parapsychology to quantum physics, there is an actual school of thought in the discipline that time is actually an illusion, and that everything happened at the same time at the moment of the big bang. its hard to conceptualize, but there is no past or future. it all happened at once, but we can only experience one event at a time.

think of time like a big winding staircase where we can only descend (its too slippery to climb back up). going down stairs in this case is like living in normal time space...time passes at its normal interval.

if a rope hangs down the middle of the spiral, then you can get on the rope, and climb to the past of the future.
the staircase isnt being built as we climb, but has already been built, and the experience of it all is just perception.

does your head hurt yet? LOL

~W~

Same with abstract.. you see a bunny, and I see a paper with paint dabbed on it.. in perception we are both valid to a degree..

I believe that every decision we make determines and or changes our future whether we know of an outcome prior or not.

Dabbler.. **frowns** that's to be ruminated on.
[cut 'n paste 'n read again.] interesting.

still doesn't change the 'feeling'.. though. the very same 'feeling' that has proven right, so many times..

.. aye, all very 'emotional.'

I just place that feeling in a more logical cntext, rather then ascribe it to paranormal, I place it in normal context. some are more geared to such feelings then others what triggers those feelings very much physiological.

i'll be honest i just scrolled down to the bottom after reading the annicial post i'll go back and read the rest when i've had my say, that's just the way i'ma rollin' today.....
you can't change the future because what you saw was either inevidable or just a possibility of what could happen if. i've had those moments of de ja vu before and it was really uncanny but you can messure what might happen by what already has. following patterns of behavior and personalities is my specialty sometimes i'm lucky enough to actually predict when and where they will be next but there is always the possibility that just by being there they might not show up.
observing people and their patterns is not a difficult as you may think master manipulaters do it all the time God i hate those f*$%ers. they are everywher but fortunately they are easy to spot if you follow your gut. but there is a difference between harmless role playing like some do on this site and down right psyco crap. man i drank to many rockstars today i'm totally off topic God i love week ends! um where was i oh yeah. shadows of the future are all any of us can see because time moves one way and the future is unwritten. that's my thoughts and if you like to think otherwise read my journal posts about Einstein's theory of reletivity. I'll give you a hint how it ends he's wrong!!!!!!
sorry if i seem overbearing i'm just high on rockstars right now and i get a little wild and bleeeeeeh i just threw up a little me'n and my cousins are gonna go down to the rez and get us some burz then wul get back and drink them eh victor?..... eh jokes now,
Ana
god I crack my ass......

An example,

I have a strong suspicion that Miss. X is going to end up being Slapped, or beat by Mr. Y here latest date, I directly, or indirectly relate this to Miss X, So she adjust her interaction with Mr.Y, now this does not assure that X will not get slapped or beat, the very act of her Calling off the relationship could well initiate the aggression. The original suspicion was based not on celestial cosmic sources, but an accumulation of social learning, and behavioral aptitude, still remarkable, but not so much phenomenal.



I notice after a routine gathering, the person that drives skips a normal part of a routine, (consciously, or periphrastic) say for example they did not call their Mate prior to getting into the car, and they had the cell at hand, while we are pulling into traffic I am uneasy.. suspect that they may abruptly attempt to complete their routine (ritual) causing them to be negligent of their driving. My mind runs all potential out comes. I mention that they still have their cell at hand. and suggest they wait for a stop sign to call, reminding them they didn't.

All in natural neuro-behavior .

but, to refer to my previous post, if all time has already been laid out and we are just moving thru the show, then perhaps premonitions are part of the mind actually connecting with the next loop on the coil.
~W~

Or an indication that a persons life is very tedious, and lacking in variables.

nice... like i said before even though it was done so poorly I know that time is one way, prove me wrong and i'll admit i was but there it is. people have routiens and though many stray from there routiens none do something that is completely out of there charactor. unless on drugs of some kind and then it is still predictable because if you know how a person is sober then you will have a pretty good idea of what will happen when they are not. example I don't know exactly what set me off but I was in a bar and was talking to a friend i had just met. i went to go refresh my drink and i noticed something off about the room people's postures were more aggressive and there was a tension in the air so powerful i could almost taste it. i got that familiar tingle of adrenaline that made the back of my neck break out in goose flesh. so i changed my mind and went to the table and convince my friend to go for a walk with me, for something to eat my treat. that was just an excuse to get out but we left and got some burgers down the steet. the further i got away the more i seemed to relax. then when we came back there was an ambulance there. and they were mopping up blood from the bar owners face. she was my friend and had i been there i probably would have kicked the living sh*t out of the person that assaulted her. I can speculate all i want about what could have happened "i jump in and get severly injured or severly injure them." what ever the case i left knowing something bad was coming but not what. it's called instinct and if i had been a little more drunk i probably wouldn't have noticed it until it was too late.
Ana

after reading all of these.. a) a headache is now ongoing.

b) a thought just got me: we only use a portion of our brain Dabbler, so whatta 'bout the rest?

Could that be where these 'thoughts, 'feelings' come from.. I mean, weird shit does and can happen all the time. I am not necessarily sayin there's a divine reason; I guess I'm acknowledging the possibilty of there being more than the 'what is'??

the brain Myth has been complete debunked.

It is all normal processes of the physio nuero center that is the brain, the individuals development is what determines the significance one places upon such produced synapsis output.

The only way to detect proportionally such concepts as precognition would be to isolate an individual that claims to be precog. and have them journal their "sensed" data, then not allow them to exit the study area to witness whether or not the activity occured.. as i suspect the average person claiming precog gets the "ah ha" as the even unfolds.. so in essence the "sensed data" is of no practical use'.

So I conclude, it is not phenomenal, but remarkable for an individual to be alert to such tinges. Yet it can be a sign of depression, or bi polar to dwell incessantly upon.. what one suspects to happen next.. limiting ones present to "How well did I see this coming."

ok here is you answer to the question what about the rest of the brain and this is true look it up type key words and click on every website you see about scientific aspects of the brain. what part controls what action or feeling.
the fact is we use all of it just only 10 pecent at a time on a regular basis. some use more some use less. the only exception to that is the memory part of your brain which fills up after a long life. once full bad things happen dementia and memory loss set in. that part of the brain is almost always active for obvios reasons unless you have experiance brain damage headache could be a sign that your brain is overworked those are tension headaches or just that you need more oxigen or water which are physical issues that untreated can lead to death (it's the body's warning system).

In sumation you use all of your brain unless it's dead in places do to damage but only a little at a time.

New generations have better brain function it's just a fact of evolution and really I look at my nephues and know it's true. they are way smarter then i was at their age. I would go further into this issue but it well frankly might get a little offensive for lack of a better term. if you want to ask me more about brain sizes and percentage of use between different generations and so on then message me privately.....

AnaliethiaThionoeSangita--
it has been proven that time is a two way street...it is just our own inability to access that other lane.

~W~

I honestly think changing the future will never happen. People will try. Inevitably people are creatures of habit. And I think whatever is meant to happen is exactly what is going to happen~

show me the artical that proves it...... you can't because the only way to prove it is to do it.....

seriously lordwolf I am willing to admit that I am wrong if I am but you need to show me. time it not two way. "time is relitive" means that depending on where you are and what you look at what you are seeing is only an optical illusion.... you know what I'm not even going to get into that right know because if you believe that then logic is meaningless and the concept would be too difficult to explain at this time, but if you are hungry to learn more about why it isn't true I will post my artical on "the theory of reletivity." I'm just not sure where I would put it because it isn't realated to vampires at all. on the other hand it is dirrectly related to time travel which all will aggree is a supernatural subject so I'll give it a try.....
Ana

I suspect the question is creating a rift. Your original question was far more engaging. Perhaps a question like.
Should one intervene when one forecast events, or occurrences?

I believe that the change of future changes every day and we have no control of the change. But do we? I think we do but it gets out of control.

I have a strong sence that you were refering to me as Miss X lol Honestly I've said my peace on this and I'm done unless some one comes up with a better aguement. Check out "Time Travel and Parallel Universes" If you want to talk Time travel... There is A nice link at or near the bottom that deals with the quantum mechanics of this idea..... Dabbler I've heard you are a very knowledgable person on these things I invite you Directly to check it out Post or don't just read it, i'm sure you'll enjoy it.
Ana

It is well documented that upon turning future events flash before the subject. Apparently this is highly amusing to otherkin who know have experienced this.
My advice, hit the Casino and bet on doubles on blackjack...I did this in Brisbane and had a fan club.
P.s. it still freaks you out!

Dabbler was right, certain people took my question and went well off the wall: my question was a simple one.

And Dabbler, Bi-Polar, or Manic Depressive irrespective, feelings are feelings... I've learnt not to obsess, tho I'll reaily admit, that label does fit me.

Though, I'll also add, that I'm supposed to have 'great potential' [albeit I feel unrealised] which is why I suggested the bit about the brain, which incidentally, had never been proven, one way or the other.. and yes, before making such a statement, I'm sure.

So, to return to the question, with fore-knowledge.. would one try to change the future.. ?

[That is, assuming we can.]

the question is this then:
how can someone have foreknowledge of the future?
the only way to have knowledge of something is if it has already occurred. if as i stated on another thread, that all things have already happened, and all time is set (think slinky...all of it already exists, but we only perceive a single coil at the time, but the rest of the slinky is still there) then there is absolutely no way to change it ...it is already set.

~W~

Alright Angelus I'll bite... Foresight can be attained by people watching observation of the masses and well as the individual..... But it would not be completely accurate, just a what if. Now let's say it is possible to see the future you wouldn't be able to change it because if you can change it then you never saw the real future in the first place; you saw a possibility of the future, maybe even the most probable of possibilities but still just that. Just by seeing a real possibility of the future could have change it, or maybe more likely simply seeing it caused it to happen. But if it meant helping others I would, if it meant hurting others I wouldn't.
If say, where I am now just turns out to be a *premonistic dream and I wake up in Germany a year before he's born you bet your ass I would kill him as a baby.

*Premonistic isn’t a word but I like it and felt it fit nicely there as a derivative of premonition.

Ana

frankly the only way i can see to "change the future" is like the old joke.


john: hey bob, did you know i saved ted's life the other day?

bob: no, what happened?

john: i changed my mind


~W~

Your actions decide your future.. if you were to go out and kill someone at random. you would go to jail and probably rott there till the day you die... if you go out and have sex unprotected, then unless your unable to have children then you will probably have children.

cause and effect.

I believe there are many possible future outcomes, though each possibility is happening at different realities. So that no matter what we do there will only be one outcome for this reality.

I am curious about a few specifics, how do these premonitions occur? Visually, or by other means?

even with the gift of foreknowledge of the future if one should change said future we are faced with several theoretical happenings rising from that moment in time we changed. in doing so we could also create a time paradox in which the possible outcomes are endless. so in my eyes even with that foresight in to ones future the question should be should you change said future.

If a person seriously figures something is going to happen (Phenomenal, or just instinctively) why would one not mention something to the individual(s) involved?

sure if you get all metaphysical jargon on them, they are going to be weirded out by you, but just mention, directly, or indirectly that something is out of sorts, and exercise extra caution. Every person I ever met that speaks of being precognitive "gifted" usually have nothing to go on except.. "I just feel something bad is going to happen."

So I suspect Angwelus, that you would build your case by elaborating on How, and When you "feel", and the details as you are able to relate.

as ever, most erudite.
and yes, I know it's a feeling.. and quite probably nothing more than that.. yet, call it happenstance or synchronisity, I've svored 'right' many, many times..

again, hence the thread: and the question.

that is true dabbler and angelus, but as it was said before the future is also based upon ones free will. it is in that sense that no ones future is written in stone. expect if one chooses to end there life that is the only thing that would be certain and even then its only certain through the means of a external force not of ones true future.

Being right, as in you form a personal consensus along with your feeling? a consensus of example, "a regular at the kitchen will knock about staff."


Care to offer a case in point?

I do note it makes a difference when a person helps build their thread, most notable indeed Mr. Angelus.

Along with your general reasoning for hesitating to relate to those concerned any premons' what you 'glean', if you are able.

Yes the future is definitely changeable but I sense it more like being able to re-direct a satellite dish only a few centimetres form its original position which in turn on a long distance that could mean a range of miles. Of course foresight helps but more then anything sensing well what is a better future turnout. Of course then there is the bigger scale of thing which by the same analogy someone would decide to move the satellite which is in space so all satellite dishes would have to be realigned to it accordingly.

Yondor, That is a fine Metaphor.

.. so many points of view: "ahhh. perfection."

There are specific to mind. Distance covered, association to the subject forecast, and average time elapsed from conception to fruition.

**frowns**

I grasp that, but its like, that was too fast.

Lets break them down.

Time elapsed until your premonition "unfolds".

Association with the subjects (individuals) you had a premonition about.


The distance (average) that your premonitions reach. local? County?

**frowns** 10-four. aye, that sat. cheers Dabbler.

.. made sense, to me... goodstyle. ta.

When things have happened previously then we can forsee the future to change it

that's all well and dandy but I still can't get the thoughts of in some way creating a time paradox in that moment of time were we change that event. as some have said even a small change in that event could bring about a catastrophe event to happen in which it was other wise prevented so in many ways it still comes back to the question I posed early even with the gift of foresight should said person tempt fate and play god and change that event in time or letter it happen and preserve the greater good ?

How can you control something that doesn't exist. The future is a non existing thing. There is no evidence that can prove something else. WOW, now, Are you confused about what I am saying? Think, how can you change the future if you are not part of it.

with that being said your saying as if the next say five minutes of your life is not there or should I say does not exist. if there is a past, a present, there then must be a so called future if there wasn't life in your terms would simply either fail to exist in one second and some how manage to reappear out of no where. time like all things is a continuing part of our lives. and I was merely explaining my theory in a means to answer my question so please do not speak to me in such a manner. please keep on topic an not such childish utterances like that.

The future can never be changed. In order for something to change it must first exist. The future will never exist because the events that would seemingly dictate it, exist in the present. So to quote “change the future” you would have to in essence change the present, but the foresight to change the present would result in the need to change the past. So to answer your question for a brighter tomorrow focus on events of the past and will them changed and your present will change but the future will always remain unknown.

4031BC, Well said. My response to this thread is my humble opinion. And I still believe what I said. Sorry if you took my comment the wrong way. My apologies Sir!!

the fure will alway's remain unknown?

yeh, sure.

**shakes head**

and, the Earth still flat, is it?

'the future will alway's remain unknown'... ?

yeh, sure.

**shakes head**

and, the Earth still flat, is it?

Yes. I think it is possible to change the future by making good decisions in the present as opposed to stupid ones. I've pretty much proven it.

Yes Angelus, the future will remain unknown. Even foreknowledge lacks certainty, there is no demonstration of significant application of alleged premonitions. No significant logs accounting for accuracy. As I mention above, any credible forecast needs distinct criteria, as of current there is none forth coming.

they can barely forcast the rain, much less other future events, and meteorology is an established science. forecasting the future is hardly a science at all.
~W~

The concept is not accountable enough, to even begin to gain preliminary accreditation. I would recommend anyone who desires to be considered effective to log ones premonitions. To often peoples premonitions are of insignificant matters, or local spectrum.

Things directly relative to the individual, which clearly demonstrates deductive observations, rather then premonitions.

.. there are times, when I seek vailidiction, for theories I espouse; and others when I genuinely seek reflection.

Dabbler, if I were able to share a pint or two and discuss this further, I know I'd benefit.. thanks f't thoughts shared.

I hope I am encouraging you to develop your case. In paranormal research their are such individuals that are noted as Paranormal Claims Investigators, note the Claims.. to weed out the vagueness, and ambiguity of sensational attention seekers.

Too often everyone gurgles the cliche testimony, and anecdotes, and then become miffed when anyone inquires for basic development.

No one can really change the future. I mean if u could i think u would metal with the natural order of things. I dont think it should be done, everything happens for a good reason. Even if its bad.

.. whilst I disagree, hence the thread and, some fine discourse.

But hey, everone is entitled to an opinion.

While everyone is entitled to opinion, some opinions are better supported then others, and what an opinion is based on factors into the general equation.

I would like to buy you a drink or two, we have some things to discuss.

.. Dabbler, I work best with reflection: hence this.
Some of this thread has been invaluable, to me.

I find that every choice we make changes what our unconscious mind foresees in our future I feel that we can change things by making different choices to do what we feel we need to in order to change the way we see things coming forth..

there's tons of stories about changing the future....

none of them end well...

.. hopefully, this might. One can dream, can't one?

One needs to establish the alleged foreknowledge before the concept of altering any alleged pending event can be considered.

So to me what significance does such an alleged anomaly serve?

Then I am curious as to why one would be perplexed over intervening after being privy to such foreknowledge. I would wonder how vague, or timely any alleged foreknowledge is received.

Remember that famous movie line: "No fate but what we make..?" I believe in that wholeheartedly.

Anytime we make a conscious decision to do this or that we change the future- we may not know how at the time, but there it is

We can all hope for a utopia if you will one in which we change the past so that our futures are different and we can dream but to what cost... I dont want to find out that price one may have to pay in order to change the future..If it were indeed possible to do so...

RedQueen summed that up eloquently.

The film 'Split-second illutrated that idea.. and, I still think that the idea of eleven me's as in string theory is there, but dubious... though that said, man did think the Earth was round, once.

The way i look at it is if it is the future pertaining to a persons particular life path then it would be down to changing the consciouse choices of that person, by understanding their personality and how they act within certain situations to be able to govern a particular outcome. If you were able to understand the actions or non actions of a person and then systematically re programming their responses by offering new thought concepts this could then change the course of that persons path. Having said that breaking behavioural patterns could only be short term due to past memories causing resurgneces of old behaviour. It would be dependant on the persons knowledge of the process and their understanding of knowing when to act in a situation to override this.

But as to it being consdered as changing the course of their future, im not sure it counts...more manipulating situations and events to achieve a different outcome.

angelus...
why dubious? ok...most higher end physics seems counter intuitive, but based on our best understanding of the universe, thats the way things are.

so yes...there very well be not just eleven more of you...but perhaps an infinite number of you!

scary eh? LOL
~W~

I am not seeing the correlation of the geometry of the planet, and metaphysical hypatheticals

.. dabbler, their bun-loaf theory is implicit, there's eleven.

'...more manipulating situations and events to achieve a different outcome.' [Sweet!]

Still though, all the info I mentioned early would need to be considered into any summary. As far as what exactly is cover in a "premonition".

This thread has been automatically closed for length.