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karnstein
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13:02:34 Oct 14 2007
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there are many myths about a sacred spear.
most famous is the spear of longinus, supposedly the roman soldier who pierced christ on the cross with his spear to prove he was dead. it is said that the spear is blessed and anyone who holds it will never be defeated in battle. it passed through many hands, and Hitler went to great lengths to secure it. it is said the hour that American troops marched in to the museum and took possession of the spear was the same hour of Hitler's suicide.

another spear is the Spear of Odin. this too was said to have great power. Odin hung upside down for 3 days to learn the secret of writing, and afterwards carved the viking runes onto his spear.

yet another was the Spear of Lugh. this was a gift to King Lugh from the Sidh, and it is said that the spear would always find its mark, and drain the life-force out of the victim. some legends say the head would detach and find it's intended victim (like a guided missile). it is also known as the spear of lightening.

could these all be the same spear, and are there any others?




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XBetrayedX
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13:40:21 Oct 14 2007
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I think that they could all be the same spear and that there are just many different intepretations about the legend. But in the legend about Odin didn't get get hung outside and he pierced his side with the spear, for some reason? I can't really remember I think I should read some more on the subject.



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XBetrayedX
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13:41:29 Oct 14 2007
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sorry, I made some mistakes. I didn't mean outside, I meant up side down, and then I forget to add 'He' in the sentence...sorry but everyone makes mistakes lol.



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karnstein
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13:43:24 Oct 14 2007
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yes - i think you are right. he hug upside down from Yggdrasil the world tree.



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DixieChic
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14:25:59 Oct 14 2007
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It seems to me that they are all just legends. Three seperate legends..three seperate spears. If the stories were more similar I might be inclined to believe but...not the way it is.



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ToxicKitten
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14:52:56 Oct 14 2007
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yes, 3 diffrent legends. i dont thinkt here really liknked at all.

mabye theres 1 spear, and just diffrent veiws and stuff bout it.



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MysticMoon
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15:01:38 Oct 14 2007
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the first spear you refer too isnt that the spear of destiny



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MysticMoon
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15:03:16 Oct 14 2007
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yep i think i was right

According to legend, the Holy Lance (also known as the Spear of Destiny, Holy Spear, Lance of Longinus, Spear of Longinus or Spear of Christ) is the lance that pierced Jesus while he was on the cross. The Biblical account itself does not give a name to the spear, nor does it otherwise support the legends surrounding this artifact.

The "Spear of Destiny" is a name given to the Holy Lance in various stories that attribute mystical powers to it. Many of these have originated in recent times and several popular new age and conspiracy theory books have popularized the legend of the spear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Destiny



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MysticMoon
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15:04:47 Oct 14 2007
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In Irish mythology, the Spear Lúin (originally Luisne, meaning 'flaming' or 'glaring') or Spear of Lugh is one of the Four Treasures of Ireland (the others being the Claíomh Solais, the Dagda's Cauldron and the Stone of Fál).

The Spear Luin was originally forged by the god Lugh for use against Balor of the Evil Eye. In other versions, the spear was brought by Lugh from the city of Gorias, one of the four otherworldly cities in the 'Northern Islands' from which the Tuatha Dé Danann came to Ireland.

It was this spear that won for Lugh the epithet Lámhfhada, the 'Long-handed'. Whoever wielded it in battle would emerge victorious.[1]

It was said to be so intensely hot that it had to be kept point-down in a large barrel of water (namely the Dagda's Cauldron Coire Ansic "Un-dry") so as not to burn down the place in which it was held.

The spear constantly dripped blood.[citation needed]

This is known too as the crescent spear famous because it supossed to be indestructible and had the propiety of elemental attacks like ice or lightning

A different spear of Lugh, the spear of Assal, was brought back to Lugh by the sons of Tuireann in atonement for their killing of Cian. When thrown in battle, uttering the word ibur, the spear of Assal always hit its target; it returned to the thrower on uttering the word athibar.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Lugh



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MysticMoon
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15:05:17 Oct 14 2007
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looks like these are diffrent spears



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Callia
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15:29:34 Oct 14 2007
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Yes like Most Religious words and scriptures each religion has their Own interpretation of the stories and so i think this Spear also is the same in just different takes on it depending on which religious practice we speak of .. i assume there is probubly more of this same story in each of the other religions as well if it was looked into deep enough



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ICEqueen666
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15:33:08 Oct 14 2007
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yes because the spear was used so much during ancient times for war it became shrouded in ledgend for certain spears



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Sonneillon
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15:42:54 Oct 14 2007
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Different stories, different times, different spears. But, all in all, just stories, told over time and modified over time.



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karnstein
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15:59:18 Oct 14 2007
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i think they are all adapted from one root legend. the spear was one of the earliest weapons made by man, so i think each culture has hijacked the legendary spear story, and adapted it to their own mythology.



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karnstein
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17:08:48 Oct 14 2007
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the stories are all different about the origin of the spear, but the essence of the myth itself is the same



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Whipped
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18:18:56 Oct 14 2007
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I think they are all different spears and they each have their own history and that they each represent something different in history.



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vulcuran2
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18:23:37 Oct 14 2007
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I think they are all different spears



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RavenKnight
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18:34:28 Oct 14 2007
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I personally do not believe in the first spear i ,meam if someone had or could find this spear then he could be the ruler of the world and if hitler had it then he would have been the ruler...



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Carvall
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19:08:00 Oct 14 2007
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The story is interesting....thing is so many original myths have been hijacked.



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KnightLevin
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20:24:22 Oct 14 2007
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I doubt it would be the same.



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ceridwenlynn
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21:45:44 Oct 14 2007
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It is three different legends, but who says it's not the same spear and different people with different beliefs have different stories for it? It could be three seperate spears. But I really think it could also be that different beliefs can produce different legends for the same thing.



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Abstract
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21:49:03 Oct 14 2007
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I have heard the first one also called the Spear of Golgotha.

From what I have read in the past about this spear, only the direct bloodline of Jesus can handle this spear. That being true, Hitler would not have been able to touch it without repercussions and that would be why he never was as powerful as the legend claims he would be.

It has been said that he had someone that could hold the spear watch over it at night and keep it safe for him.

It was rumored that the spear disappeared from his sight when he placed it on a U-boat to have it stored out of Germany. Then the Americans intercepted the boat trying to find weapons and such, found the spear, and placed it in a museum. The day it was stolen is the same day Hitler committed suicide. But there is also the possibility that Hitler did not commit suicide, and instead had someone that looked like him do so and he took off with the spear and disappeared forever.

This is only rumored and has only started to rise popularity when The DaVinci Code became popular.



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Kryptick
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21:54:32 Oct 14 2007
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I'm not sure, maybe.

I don't understand why the spear would make one almost invincible though, if it pierced Christ in the side. If Christ is real, he's supposed to be a pure being. Wouldn't He attempt at making it evil considering it stabbed him through the side, dead or not?



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shadowfever
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22:05:16 Oct 14 2007
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Oh spear me. Sorry. Basically whether it be the spear, or the chalice, or the meaning of life or love, it is what Hitchcock referred to as the McGuffin. The thing that we search for that gives us meaning but is really only an excuse for our search. They will never be found, either they have returned to the earth or they never existed, but it will never stop the search or the wonder or the speculation.



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cherryblossom
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23:10:57 Oct 14 2007
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I think they are different legends with different spears



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gealachlass
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23:13:58 Oct 14 2007
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The spear was with Hitler's other stolen artifacts. Wonder if he even knew what treasures he had. If Christ's blood touched anything ,it couldn't be evil. I'm sure there are many spear stories just as there are "magick swords ect. So enjoy them and don't take them all so serious.



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GrandMasterC187
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23:16:37 Oct 14 2007
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Cool subject I want to learn more on this topic.



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xPsychex
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23:21:27 Oct 14 2007
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Seems to me that these are three different legends..three different spears.



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UrielArnauld
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23:24:54 Oct 14 2007
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I dont know if they are really Legends..but they could be and they are definetly three diffrent spears.



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Kwil
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23:35:42 Oct 14 2007
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On that day in 1938 when Germany declared Austria to be a part of the Third Reich, he was in Vienna to personally take charge of the lance and had it put on an armored SS train which took to Nuremburg, the spiritual capital of the regime. There, it was kept in St. Catherine's church for six years before being moved to an underground vault to keep it safe from the Allied bombing raids.

From that point on, the history of this lance becomes quite specific. An Army officer took possession of the lance in the name of the U.S. Government on April 30, 1945. With the exception of General George Patton, Commander of the U.S. Third Army, American generals and political leaders showed little interest in the spear. Patton, on the other hand, was terribly interested in it and had its history traced and its authenticity confirmed. After a time, General Eisenhower had the spear returned to the Hofburg Treasure House, where it remains.

Now we have two spears of Longinus, one somewhere outside of Rome and one in Vienna. Rome claims her relic is the authentic one, and had enshrined it on the altar of St. Peter's Basilica. Pope John II used the Roman version of the spear to christen Otto the Great as Holy Roman Emperor. The other, its history traced and authenticated by General Patton, a man known to have had an interest in reincarnation and other pagan beliefs, resides in the Hofburg Museum in Vienna. Are there others?

Reformer Jean Chauvin (John Calvin), in his Admonitio de Reliquiis, reported that the spear of Longinus was being kept at Glastonbury Abbey, in England. He added that the abbey also possessed a vial of the Virgin's milk. I find it interesting that the Virgin would have been passing out samples of her breast milk or that people would have been interested in having them, since Christ did not start His public ministry until some 30 years after he was born. Of course, she had at least six other kids, so she likely spent a lot of years lactating.

That makes three spears of Longinus. In the Arthurian legend, Chretien de Troyes tells how Parsifal, an honorable and sinless knight, undertook a trial to show his worthiness to succeed a godly king who was dying. Parsifal sat on a magical chair. Now this was a risky undertaking, for anyone who sat on the chair and was not the knight selected by God to be guardian of both the spear of Longinus and the Holy Grail was put to death. Parsifal passed the test, was made king and kept the spear and grail with him until his death. Nice story.

Those who are into the darker religions and crafts claim that the spear, which they call the Spear of Destiny, has been around since the beginning of recorded time. There also is a legend that an ancient Hebrew prophet named Phineas forged the spear. Unfortunately, neither of these legends explains how an iron spear could have been forged in or before the Bronze Age.

The spear in the Hofburg Treasure House (Schatzkammer) is a wreck. The shaft is long gone and the spearhead is something of a shambles, being bound together with threads of gold, silver and bronze. Supposedly a nail from the True Cross is contained in the spearhead. This "sacred relic" is not being held in the dusty vaults of some cathedral, but sits in an ornate case in the museum, out in the open where all may view it and think on its legends.

Granted, some of the above is legend and some just plain mythology. On the other hand, is documented history that a number of powerful European rulers had possession of something called the Spear of Longinus. The Spear in the Vienna museum has been authenticated. That Rome is promoting the story of the spear may be adduced from several facts: Longinus is a member of the pantheon of Roman demi-gods they call "saints;" the RCC has ascribed miracles to the agency of Longinus the Centurion and his spear; that spear was enshrined in one of the principle altars of Roman Catholicism.

As to the reported spear at Glastonbury Abbey and the one that was in Parsifal's care, I dunno what to say. Perhaps it suffices to say there are for certain at least TWO spears of Longinus, plus another probable and one possible.



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winterdarkmoon
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00:10:40 Oct 15 2007
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I dont know much about this subject but has heard most of my life about there being a spear of destiny..and ones who were evil would have the power..maybe i was just told that..but tis an interesting thread



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ToxicKitten
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00:13:10 Oct 15 2007
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wow....ok, they must be all diffrent....ok, i see now...lol



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ampdt7108
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00:19:35 Oct 15 2007
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i agree with NotQuiteBroken, about all the spears being the same



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winterdarkmoon
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00:38:00 Oct 15 2007
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I dont think they are the same..They are quite different



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karnstein
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01:01:54 Oct 15 2007
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thank you kwil - that is very informative. so we have three spears that are claiming to be one - or maybe one spear claiming to be three.

i think there are probably many more lost to time. i think the spear of destiny is in fact an archetype. there are probably African tribes that have a spear which they claim has mystical powers, or was a gift from the gods.

the spear is one of the oldest weapons known, and i expect every king or chieftain would claim that his spear is just as special and divine as he is. it is a symbol, an icon, pretty much like the Ring in lord of the rings.

maybe they are all myths, and not one of them is genuine. it does not really matter - it is what it stands for that matters.

it does seem odd that a weapon used to pierce the son of god should be blessed by god to make the holder succesfull in battle. hardly in keeping with the religion it is supposed to represent.



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winterdarkmoon
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01:23:18 Oct 15 2007
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very imformant ..Interesting reading as well..



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Violaquin
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04:31:42 Oct 15 2007
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I agree with shadow fever on this one. Perhaps these are intended to be motivators, symbols for people to focus on. Almost like using a dagger in a magickal ritual to keep your mind on the task at hand.

I forget who mentioned the spear being the first weapon made by man, but that may be the reason for it being said to be the instrument used to stab Jesus while he was on the cross. Here it could represent the old ways of man conqouring the threatening tide of change that Jesus & his followers represented.

The "spear" seems to be a metaphor describing an act stifling or ending a movement. Supremacy & authority through military power.



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Mystic
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05:06:14 Oct 15 2007
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i beleive from what i have read here that they are three different spears all rooted from one story. in my opinion.



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DeMorte
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05:10:03 Oct 15 2007
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well I feel that they are all different with their own meanings whether it be ledgends or fact or whatever just that they seem to be totally different.



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Catalunah
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06:23:07 Oct 15 2007
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They sound as if they are 3 different spears but as said early on they could just be 3 different interpretations of the same spear.


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Whispersinthewind
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09:39:21 Oct 15 2007
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An idea as to the Spear of Destiny would be to cross reference the dates each spear originated from. Somewhere there is a missing link, as there may be coincidence, but this seems to open from coincidences. We needs dates people, I want to get to the bottom of this. As the last I heard of the Spear of Destiny was WWII, when Hitler aquired it. It went missing after that.



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Eastoria
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12:12:18 Oct 15 2007
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hmmm I think that spear is the proverbial phallus. The symbol of masculinity and supposed power. The need to show ones verility and size is a common theme through out history. It is an interesting thought to realize just how sexually driven humanity is. We are not civilized at all, still just a bunch of horny apes with better tools.



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Roller
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15:02:49 Oct 15 2007
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I have to say the same thing that a few others have said. I believe these to be three diffrent legends so it will be three diffrent spears.



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enchanted1369
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15:36:15 Oct 15 2007
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i belive one spear many storys like xmas



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karnstein
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21:43:44 Oct 15 2007
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i think you misunderstand me. dating the spear would be pointless because like the holy grail it isnt real - it is just a myth. i believe that the legends are all just variations of the same myth.



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artemka
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22:17:25 Oct 15 2007
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I don't understand - if it isn't real enough to be dated, what did the US Army officer take and is now stored in the places mentioned above?



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VISilentVIDesecrationVI
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22:44:38 Oct 15 2007
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Out of these spears the only one I believe ever existed was the Spear of Odin. I don't believe at all that these could be the same Spear. I believe that there was one, lost long ago, and many myths have developed throughout different cultures about a Spear that originated from the original Spear. There is only one and the others are legends spoke of in hushed tones or late at night to awe your audiences.



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karnstein
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01:16:24 Oct 16 2007
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what hitler had was probably just an ordinary old spear. probably of Roman origin - but there are millions of old artifacts out there. i have a roman coin i found on a spoil heap - i could claim it was one of the coins that judas was paid for betraying christ, and thus claim it is cursed to make the holder walk the earth as a vampire. except it's copper and dates to about a hundred years after the crucifiction - but you get the idea.



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DragonWolf
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02:06:29 Oct 16 2007
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There was a movie I saw called The Librarian:Quest for the Spear. Between the beginning and the end it kind of combined parts of the first and the 3rd things you mentioned. But in all reality, it's quite possible that they are all the same spear...it being lost and then found again through the decades and centuries.



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Novus
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04:14:35 Oct 16 2007
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I do not think that the legends have enough in common, but you never know.



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Abstract
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These spears can raise the question "Did Christ really exsist?"

If they can find the spear that pierced his side then they can trace it back to that time era and simply DNA test it. If they find that the DNA is lacking certain elements(like a y chromosome) then they can prove that he did exist. If not then it helps disprove the basis of Christianity.



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MidnightRayn
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04:47:34 Oct 16 2007
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Depending on orgin, Time dates ect. alot of research has to be done before we could even belive that they are one and the same



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MOONLITDREAM
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07:20:13 Oct 16 2007
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i do not believe that a spear could make anyone invincible even if it did pierce the side of christ.



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Lajah
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09:16:14 Oct 16 2007
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it is not just spears..swords as well.



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karnstein
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15:34:25 Oct 16 2007
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lajah is right - there are many myths concerning magical swords too. maybe the very first iron sword was considered magical - but i believe that all these mythical weapons are just allegories. like the golden fleece - which tuned out to be an allegory for the guild of tanners and fur traders.



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ForbiddenTemptation
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16:17:43 Oct 16 2007
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I dont believe the magical spear could make u invisible, I believe there are three different ones seperated but no magical I believe its a legend



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Glenn
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16:24:45 Oct 16 2007
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They may indeed be the same. The spear of destiny was a great book.



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Wolfscout
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17:10:02 Oct 16 2007
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Nothing and noone is invincible.. aided or not.

chuckles



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NightmareofSin
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04:25:32 Oct 17 2007
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i think that they are all diffrent



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RagingDarkness
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12:34:07 Oct 17 2007
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I have read and heard tales of the spear of destiny, the spear that was used to pearce Christ to bring about his death. That the spear can control both sides as in good and evil, bring about long life and control the destiny of all men. That Hitler had or had been searching for it, along with the holy grail and another holy relic that legend suggest that when you bring all three together you will control the world.



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karnstein
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12:47:44 Oct 17 2007
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didnt work did it?
what modern seekers of artifacts fail to realise is that the ancients would often speak in allegories. druids were healers, ovates, and story tellers - but before all that they were poets. these spears were not literal, but metaphorical. it isn't difficult to understand what they mean - all the clues are there.



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shadowfever
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17:07:21 Oct 17 2007
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Not just the true ancients but in most religions allegorical tales abound. The parables that Jesus told were not supposed to be history, they were morality tales. Sort of a Christian version of Aesop's Fables.



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karnstein
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18:03:46 Oct 17 2007
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yes - these days language has degraded, we speak literally and in absolutes. and we assume that people in the past did the same. we have forgotten the power of metaphor. we speak more, but say less.



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BloodxXxOverDose
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18:25:19 Oct 17 2007
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very interesting it does make me wonder i once read a artice a while back that said when hitler was in power that he possessed such a spear believing it to give him some kind of power that a normal human couldnt hold but i say this is indeed a very interesting topic.



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karnstein
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18:28:10 Oct 17 2007
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he was already ruling Germany by the time he got his hands on the spear - and it didnt help him won the war, so I guess it wasnt very powerful after all.



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Meska
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18:33:38 Oct 17 2007
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i think they ar not related just different part of the worl and legends



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shadowfever
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21:27:34 Oct 17 2007
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It doesn't matter what the spear is, or where it is from. As long as you can make others believe in the spear.
A man's success is dependent upon his ability to cause his dreams to become realities through others. It is then, and only then, that a man becomes successful within as well as without.



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SatanasLuciferi
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01:36:25 Oct 18 2007
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Oden's spear is not the same as the sacred spear. Reasons:
Odens spear is supposed to have runes on it, and the romans spear was made first of all, in copper and not iron (Used in the viking-era), seccond, it is sacred for 2 reasons. It pierced Christ (Would not christians hate the spear because of that?) and one of the supposed nails that is said to pierce Jesus is inside the spear itself. Now, despite the fact that there is a long time from both of them, and that Oden never was in Jerusalem (would be fun to hear though) this spear can not be the same.



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Gaius
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02:40:25 Oct 18 2007
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I have heard two out three of those legends. I do think that they are just that. I think that since the spear has been used as a weapon for such a long time it goes without saying that man throughout time would tell stories about those weapons. To be completely honest I am not even a hundred percent sure the Christ's story is not just legend. I don't think there is any way we will ever know if alot of legends are true or not.



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Jessika
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02:58:43 Oct 18 2007
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Its a result of the same myth being told by different peoples, they change the same, but keep the same basic primise.



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Ashesofruin
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03:08:42 Oct 18 2007
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There is a possibility that they do spring from the same root legend.

I'm going to have to look into this a bit myself.



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Stormwind
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04:27:04 Oct 18 2007
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By "same spear" do you mean a physical object or a common literary motif?



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Missmissy
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04:57:59 Oct 18 2007
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well there is no actual fact that last two spears existed in some of my reading of anncient greek mythology these spears do exist but from archealogist point of view theres not enought evidence to support the ideas claims all around the world have been made on similar artifacts but to be the same spear i have dont believe so in some bibles such as catholic it is believe that when jesus was pierced the earth cracked and it feel beneath it other believe that spear was place in the tomb with him



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RavenKnight
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05:04:55 Oct 18 2007
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With the spear that pierced christ, how does anyone know if that is the same spear that pierced him or not, i mean they were not around thousands of years ago to see what happend to it...



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Missmissy
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05:13:53 Oct 18 2007
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i dont understand the fact were people would think the spear would become evil since being the blood of chrst.Think about it he was said to pure so would his blood being from him be pure as well and if not then the chirstain society is wrong for the drinking of the blood of chirst ritual performed on the first sunday of every month hmmm just a thought



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10:45:05 Oct 18 2007
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I think that all those stories are probably just twisted tales of the same story started about one spear.



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SatanasLuciferi
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14:16:51 Oct 18 2007
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Well, of course they are legends, and noone knows the truth of them, but i sincerely think that if they have used the "spear" theory to promote christianity and stealing it from the "pagan" northerer believes, then shame on christianity. First of all, Oden is a god, and notthe roman soldier. The roman soldier was no God, and had a spear. See, ust there we find differences. Second, my copper-iron proof. third, If that spear was Oden's spear, as i have seen it, then why is it so small? I mean, come one, we are talking about the greatest good in northern believes, not some dwarf as a roman soldier. I have seen this spear, since they take it down from the roof of the church it is in every easter, and the blade is smaller than my hand. Now, everyone knows that the Vikings made their gods giants. That would simply be a pin stuck in odens foot with that size. and not to mention the already meantioned runes on the spear. I mean, how come there are no runes on the spear that hit christ?



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•  Closed by TheRat on Aug 31 2010  •

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