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what are your thoughts on stigmata,do you feel that it is a real thing? and if so why does it happen to certain people?

stigmata or the phenomina of a person spontainiously having the same wounds as jesus at the time of his crucification.the wounds from the spikes, the spear,and the crown of thorns.is it real? and why does it happen to certain people?

I would think that it is real, just not in the way that everyone lets on. Yes it is quite possible that the stigmata appear on a person, but not because some god put them there. They appear because of faith, a person wills them into being, on an unconscious level of course, but the power of the human will can do anything.

ok,so how does one explain it happening to a non christian?

As for it happeneing to non-christions, from the instances I have read about, the ones recieving the stigmata are still strong in their faith. Never said what the faith was in. Also, they are someone who no one has ever know about until the stigmata occurs. It may be on the unconscious level, but they suddenly gain attention in extreme. And in every case I have read about, the person did have some christin ties in there family background.

point taken,but as a wiccan why would i display these phenomina.

There are a few reasons, anyone in your family have cristian ties, strong cristian influence around you from neibors or friends,...pretty much anything pushing their religion into your life and your unconcious mind can take over. Just matters that you have a strong faith in something.

when i was younger i was on a quest for knowledge,so i did embrace many different religions, that might be the reason

Possibly, unfortunatly the unconcious mind is a bit hard to control, and as a result, those with anykind of potential can find thing happening out of their control.

so how would you explain this phenomenia to others? what i mean is how would you explain these wounds to others?

Unfortunately, that is a bit tricky. Others have there own beleafs, and each person tends to take something like that in their own way. I can't really help ya much there. If ya just tell them what ya beleave and hope for the best that can sometimes be a danger or a boon, ya never really know, depends on the person your talking to.

If you believe in anything strongly enough you can manifest it . Its most likely a combo of belife and supernatural .

I don't think it happens to just christions it happens to show the world they need to face the fact that the world isn't going to last forever more like a warning from God. Believe now or don't your choice but you don't have forever to choose.

The line between fantasy and reality is so thin that for many is a way of life. Stigmata exist, only because those that experienced are willing to let the forces of good be within themselve.

Forces of good, suddenly sprouting wounds dosn't sound good to me.

I believe that some occurences could be real, but I remain skeptical. A few years back this couple claimed to be afflicted with stigmata, people came to see them, to be blessed by them. With all the publicity they were receiving, more and moer people kept going to visit them. In the end their stigmata was false, and it turns out that they were actually part of a sick child porn group. Ater that it is hard for me to believe what anyone says

Stigmata is a medical condition, and can often be caused by self harm to induce attention..

as well as bleeding statues there are warehouses full of those, is it any wonder that cement formed statues are the ones that bleed the most... The frequency of claimed stigmata is suspicious. if it is so frequent then why wouldn't the person come to an investigative commitey to support their faith attached to the performance? A thread can be spirited behind the arm looped over the hand btween the fingers. a blister pouch of blood and some corn starch is srpit molded to the palm of the hand or wrist... with a smooth motion the thread attached to a perforated seam in the pouch ripping the molded prop creating the sensationally astounding stigmata.

ok, so how does one explain wounds that just apear?i would not ask but i know it does happen,and i gaurentee it is not self inflicted.i have actualy stuck objects through the holes in my hands.they are not self inflicted,i am definantly not looking for attention(i try to hide them from everyone) i am not christian,i am wiccan but i still find myself afflicted with this apperantly christian phenominon. i have read about it and it usualy only happens to devout christians.so why me?

film it from two angles as it happens. and post it on youtube with the acessability of vidio cameras these days that should be no problem. why you haven't consulted a phycisian is a question I suspect you could answer as well, perhaps you are to mystified by it...?

yes i did go to the docter and he thought as it seems everyone else that they were self inflicted

This one is stale for me.

I have never witnessed stigmata, and because of that, I do not believe in it.

Being a very logical person, faith in things is difficult to develop.

"Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see"

I think its just a "mind over matter" thing for the most part. But the stories I have read are quite convincing.

Stigmata is pretty clearly documented as being an unconcious mental ability. It is similar to other forms of skin writing and ghost touches and can be induced fairly easily under hypnosis.

Stigmata usually lasts several years, however, whereas most other skin writing only lasts a few minutes; which would seam to show either that a person is truely disturbed, has a lot of faith, or both.

do you feel that it is a real thing? and if so why does it happen to certain people?

I know its real, I've seen it happen right in front of my eyes.

Some people are just more in tune with there selves, they have a deeper connection with that side of them.

The stigmata is greatly connected with Christ, with the nail holes in the hands and feet. But most do not know that its can happen to other people not of the god fearing kind, and be of something else. If you love some one or believe in them more then anything else, you might manifest there wounds.

I've watched the movie "Stigmata" before and I really liked it. I personally don't believe that it is a 'work of god' or anything but I think it's one of those situations where you actually make something happen to your body by using your mind. Like some people can make themselves bleed by just thinking about it, sorta like telekinesis/psychokinesis with objects.

if you go by the movie, it happens when someone is tormented by their demons to such a enormous extent it manifiest itself in the wounds. i think you can compare this to any physical wounding brought on by a "paranormal" event of oneself

I think stigmata is real but can be a hoax on occasion by attention seekers.

Most who have had stigmata's have been very devote unassuming people. It could be a form of religious hysteria. *shrugs* Why maybe god needs to remind people from time to time that he is genuinely there.

I don't believe it's real at all. It's easy to make it seem like its real by the use of a hidden needle.

I with Dabbler on this. I am curious to see what others have filmed and claim to be stigmata.

Whether it be Christian derived for otherwise.

I want to be a believer, but I am too much of a skeptic to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG2j0-_NO9Q

this is so astonishing... I like so got excited and shocked.

I'm sure there are many things people could do to make it seem a stigmata will happen.

I wish the dude could come visit me. I'd like to put the stigmata trick to my test.

LOL!

I forgot about our "Water of Life" set up.

I'll pass. I can't BS my way out of a wet paper bag of doggie doo, let alone convince anyone that what they are seeing is a manifistation of the Holy Spirit.

You'll have to get a more qualified partner, unless we hook up with someone who can truly display the effects of stigmata...

I think that, maybe, in some cases it might be real...But in most cases, over-zealous religious fanatics obsessing so hard that their mind does something weird and causes stigmata to happen.

or a bunch of gullible congregants. Yea maybe we better stick to the fountain water from the local ta... I mean fountain of youth...

leading people to believe things is simple especially when you go cheap and work on a preconditioned imagination, it is getting people to unbelieve things that is hard.

The Dog: If you hit up a search on stigamata you will find medical reasons for it ..

An excrept from Wiki on stigmata provides a great heath reason...mental health.

An observation they make kind of sums it up for me:

"Similarly, no case of stigmata is known to have occurred before the thirteenth century, when the crucified Jesus became a standard icon of Christianity in the west.[5]. Since crucifixes typically show Jesus having been nailed by the hands, people popularly believed this depiction to be true. As such, if one were to receive stigmata through the wrists, people would not consider it as Jesus' wounds."

While I agree with the historical references and the connection of mental health, paranormally speaking, you would have to assume that since the mind can cause trauma to the body normally (stress = stomach uclers) that the greater the mental disturbance the greater the wounds. I think for christians it appears as the stigmata of jesus, because he happens to be a very important icon to him both consciously and subconsciously. Most of the people who receive them are very dedicated to their faith. Who is to say that these people were not plagued with something so disturbing such as a failure to uphold that faith that the body openned the wounds. Then if such an assumption was thought true then the wounds would appear in the hands not the wrist as would be correct for the roman times since the wounds would be based on a subconscious level.

I think that the stimata really is just a mind over matter thing for religious zelots. It is amazing the things that mind can do if one believes strong enough.

I don't really believe it in. I would have to study the scene really well. I know how worked up people get.

i do not know much about it but i do know that you are right it does only happen to certain people so it is and probably will always be a mistery to mankind.

Am not sure if this is real. Have been thinking that perhaps most documented cases are those of a person with the ability to connect themselves on a different plain of life in their mind and then create the illusion of the same acts that christ went through. Think this would have to go back to what are your beliefs.

True Believes Syndrome, when questioning a faith based claim, people are so offended by disbelief, and skepticism, like some how a persons critical thinking process is a threat to their astonishment. They vast in the astonishment of those that are mystified by their hoax(consciously or subconsciously done). such a stale claim that and bleeding tear statues, no amount of evidence that stigmata is a routine claim, and usually proven false (except for those that were not available for scrutiny) time and time again. yet the True Believer continues to require proof that it does not exist...Proof that something does not exist...? Okey I request proof that it does exist ! I also request people get more original in their claims, I mean come on beat a dead horse. astonishing claims are for people that lack creativity, or communication skills, all they want to do is project themselves assomehow conected to something that people are already preconditioned to be astonished by, hay if you get your act good enough maybe you can get a guest spot on BullSh*t by Penn and Teller.

Would it still be a stigmata, if you had a dream and awake with cuts and stuff? Like say I had a dream I had my arm cut and then wake up, and have the same cut on my arm in the same place. Would you still see it as a stigmata or something else.

Para behavioral pattern observation of your sleep patterns would be needed. To be conclusive. Yet the it would have to be an unannounced observation like with hidden cameras,. A controlled environment would exclude any hidden implements that could be used to inflict cuts or abressions that are 'discovered" in the morning.

If I believed something and my faith was bolstered not be assusance alone but in resonse to astonishing things , things that can be duplicated over and over again. then after a while those tricks of perception are all a person has to cling to thier faith with, That feeling that nobody is interested in sharing your astonishment in the claim of your faith (manifested) is a threat to the persons faith.. it includes an addiction for sensational claims with an expectation of sensational responses to those claims. even delueding ones self to stab themselves in a 'trance like state".

Stigmata is a form of skin writing.

Skin writing comes in several forms...

It is called skin writing because it often comes in the form of written word (like during a séance;) however it can also appear after waking up from a dream and finding snake bites on your arm or cut marks (a la Matrix).

Stigmata is the most impressive of the forms, but all these forms are well documented by science and are not considered miracles...

There are fairly well documented studies by psychiatrists under hypnosis; debating whether or not they are faked or not is ridiculous in light of scientific documentation that it does occur.

Link Please.. Am I crazy because I don't believe in such things or are the people that do crazy?

http://www.skeptically.org/skeptics/id2.html

plenty more where this comes from. Yet I seem to find only sites that want me to buy some tricket or book from a person that holds seminars and shows his stigmata on tour.

Stigmata the tour, I think if you are actualy stigmatic you should take it on the road, I mean why astond your friends, astound the world. Silence all the skeptics.

It all state a lot of the same thing.

And cartoons about bush.

I think it's real but only because it's a mental thing where people feel a connection so strongly that they have the symptoms

Produce symptomes? we are talking about opening a wound one some ones hand Both sides.. clear through, I want my miricles and wonders all the way I want to be sprayed in the face by blood ,I don't want some guy on a stage behind a pulpit group together in a huddle and start going " Oh here it comes here it comes are you ready to witness a miricle?" and then they turn an show a shallow blood blister that was pricked , you thats right with a pinch to the inside of your palm you can create a natural "load" or blister pack as it is called in theater. It even adds depth to the "Puncture". all one needs to do is slide a minute thread and needle through it . Then after every body paid to the "ministry coffers" you go on stage plug your books and trickets and Astonish fellow academics who will bring you more converts by promoting you as the real thing. Discrediting them should you ever be exposed.

I think that anything is possible. If some one believes in some thing like the stigmata enough the mind can cause wounds to appear out of no where.

One would think that it would have been on the cover of Popular Science then. It is then possible for use to remove tumors from our body. Man we need to stop all this medical advancement and let all the psychic healers take over the madical profession, I mean I'll take profession over professional anyday.. If faith can cure so well, then how come a guy that had "shown" stigmata and "done" healings (for large fees for seminars) go to a hospital when he became sick?

i do believe that it is real as a sort of message to the very religious to pay attention to the things happening around them.

I think that, as with so many unexplained phenomena, we've become too 'human' for want of a better word. By this I mean we try to rationalise too many things and look for reasons whenever we may not be ready for that knowledge.

I've heard that if a person loves Jesus with all they have, and wishes to experience what he went through it si a great honor and humbling experience, the person would have to have unmatched faith though, and most of us have doubt in the backs of our minds.

ive never seen a case of stigmata with my own eyes in person but from what ive read and heard, isnt it mostly catholics that have had it.??.

I firmly believe jesus was never real so for someone to show his wounds Im skeptic verging on smug that there fake

What motive does a person have too make such claims. What do they have to gain from others excepting that they have such an so-called "paranormal"?

yes I do believe that it does happen but I don't think it happens to just one type of person I think it could happen to anybody

Being the curious person I am I looked up a lot of information on this and combined it with my knowledge of Stigmatism. It is seem to be shown in MOSTLY people of the Catholic religion. They say that Catholics are the "closest" to God. Out of all the cases of Stigmatics most seem to occur in women. There is also a mental illness to explain possibly some things. Munchausen syndrome which is characterized by an intense desire for attention. People with Munchausen hurt themselves or fake an illness hoping to end up in a hospital where they can be given attention and care. Also since people are still unsure how Jesus was nailed to the cross sometimes Stigmata will appear on hands or wrists. Since most people portray that in most pictures Jesus is hanging by his hands that this is the right Stigmata. If you have it on your wrists some people will say you are faking it. People are always making this out to be something bad but in most cases or at least the way I see it, this is an honor if you are of the Christian faith. You get to FEEL what he went through for your sorry ass. I, myself, am not a Christian I don't stand on any certain religion so it's hard for me to talk about their feelings.

it would make more sense if the stigmata wounds were in the wrist, where bones and tendons met - the weight of the body would tear the hands. So, I think signs of stigmata in the wrist would be more accurate.

la stigmatisation - Dr Imbert-Gourbeyre
documents more than 300 cases

I do not know if there is a link for it... there may or may not be...

My info comes from what I've read... not from what I've googled.

"Mind Over Matter" becomes a very interesting statement when considering stigmata. Maybe it's self-inflicted; maybe someone sucked down a little too much blotter; maybe it really is a manifestation of the divine.

Do we know for sure where Jesus was nailed to the cross? The exact pattern of the crown of thorns on his head? The spear in his side?

This is something I've wondered about with regards to stigmata: what about Jesus's wounds on his back from the 39 lashings given to him before Pilate condemned him to crucifixion? I never hear anything about this yet those were fairly significant wounds in the passion (suffering) of Jesus. Just curious.

If people that worship Budda Get Fat is that Devine?

Which is exactly the point that I referenced earlier. Not until the 1300's were there any reports of stigmata.

The appearance and location of the stigmata always seem to be related to direct discussions of religious belief on the manners and methods of the crusifiction of Jesus.

But there are numerous Christian faiths that all disagree and the specifics of how Jesus was handled.

Unless you happen to be one of our 2000+ year old vampires who may have witnessed the actual act, it is all speculation, belief, or even pshyco-induced injury to meet a myth.

Perhaps less so than a rampant running commentary is considered vulgar.

what does one gain personally from someone believing in another having a stigmata, even if it was "proven" beyond a reason of doubt I would still say, So what,.Others would just go back to looking for the next one. I mean if the devine jumps through hoops for "believers then they can have a show anytime, I think if it happens as much as people claim .. real ofr not it is old hat.

Hell, I would welcome the opportunity to observe stigmata first hand, but I am not prepared to travel half way around the globe to potentially see it manifested on some guy in the middle of the jungles of Brazil.

For some reasons, miracles avoid me like the plague, so you can't fault me for being a non-believer if I am not presented with some freaking miracles of my own!!!

Great!

Let me gather all of my friendly Wiccans, and Pagans, and Satanists for this trip so that we can convert them all to the true faith by direct observation of the miracle of Christ.

Are drinks and tips included?

I'm sorry, but if this stuff were to happen more in a first or second world country, I really think it would be getting a little more press then the freaking forest fires in central FL...

See that is why I deduct my former guess at a motive for a none believer to claim stigmata, It could be to sway the beliefs of people that are no longer interested in such a persons retoric and claims that they decide to up the antee, attempting with their claim, to relate an astonishing thing to those that lost interest in basic dogma, or anti dogmatic slogans.

Kind of like an extreme measure to perform some really creative advertising for the religion...

Now that is freaking extreme, but effective.

Like I said earlier an effect produced by a pince to the palm makes a ready stigmata that can be "freshened up with stage make-up.

Could it happen to a group of people at once to?

That would be unbelievable to see! I don't know if its even possible, but a whole group of people simultaneously becomming afflicted with the wounds of JC's crucifixion? I'd pay money to see that!

I mean if there are a group of people that believe it could happen, it does not have to be of "god" as they say, but also some other god or goddess

Our society is fat, lazy, skeptical, and banal.

It's no wonder we have no wonder for what teh human mind is capable of... whether under the influence of self delusion or faith. It is possible that the signs of stigmata are a symbol fo faith, but I think that it is unlikely.

All things are keyed into perception...

an event/person/place is neither good nor evil... it simply is... our perception of it as proof of faith, or sense of wonderment, is within yourself.

The world is false and illusionary anyway... it is all to do with oerception... whether the event is real or not ... it is real... you've percieved it... judged it... catalogued it... it was a real event...

for all intent and purpose....

What difference is there if you learned something from personal epiphany or podcast... is there even a difference if an event occured to you or to someone you love?

I've just been reading Abbadon's pro... how real was his 1 rating to you? is it real? in any way? did it hurt you like a real punch... does a real punch hurt your soul... in what way does it make a difference if it is a miracle or a mental effect... if the efect it has on the world is real?

The fact that a person can spend so much time commenting on the subject proves that it is real...

Or so I feal.

i dont personally believe in it but my dad's catholic so i've heard a lot about it. i was always told that the person who got stigmata was chosen by god to carry on his message.
At least this is what i was told when i was little. dont know if it's true or not.

I think that the wounds of faith are real, no matter what faith you follow.

It could also be a person who is so mentally ill wind up harming themselves and do not know it. In many religions, the mentally ill were also considered "touched by God(s)"

i was raised catholic but i never believed in the stigmata. i guess i'm too pessimistic so i never really thought that someone could miraculously show the marks that jesus suffered at the cross.

Folks stay on topic. This is not a thread for stage magic or trying to force your opinion on others by your arrogance. If you don't have something constructive to say on the subject of "Stigmata" - then don't post!
~ billy

Well stigma means mark or brand in Greek language. But in my opinion stigmata can not be linked to slavery or humiliation. Coz Zesus is Saint of salvation and always been good to peepal.

When my grandmom was on death strature, my boss instructed me on paid leave from his own wish till GrandMom and I was reading those days Holy Geeta.

Its Third Chapter I finished and subconscious was leading me to sleep. that time deep wish took place in my mind that teh extreme pain my granma suffering on death strature with sore on bed. I did wish the same pain in my inside. all the pain of she having puss in whole body by body sore. I was in worried about grandma having pain. that time in my subconscious state i felt puss is form in my body and after that i saw the puss is spilled our from my intestine and other pipes. after that i saw my each pipes including veins spilling out the puss and after that i saw my slept body spiling the puss. I was watcing my body slept one metres down on bed and puss is growing spilling out of it. It was all astral but spriritual awakening that body is mortal and am notpart of it. but no pain was there. I wished more of it coz my grndma having it. and within a minutes my mind remind me min having family totally depand on me there one kid and my wife looking for me. I immediately woke up. and next 4 days my stumoch went sick and in my stool it was color of puss.

Its all true and my spritual true awakeing was that. We can say this was stigmata, the impact of other soul through a certain process of it period impact on our body.

I believe people are truly crazy enough to make anything happen to themselves.

I read a cool quote somewhere, and I'll paraphrase it really badly - "I am always surprised at what horrors these humans are able to bring upon themselves. Better than anything I could ever have done." says the devil.

It's insane how many people will committ terrible atrocities in the name of 'christianity' - to themselves and to others. I think it's a fanatic manifestation of insanity.

Wow, there are a lot of good points on both sides, since I have no experience with stigmata, i am on the fence. Im not sure wether it is real or not, but anything is possible.

to Riallisa: do you think that people did that to themselves? showed the marks of Jesus at the cross because they wanted to draw attention to a divine aspect of their religion?

Persistence is a sad by-product to pious fraud. once you have produced it you will be required of you to do so again and again, it consumes you, you suspect everyone of seeing something you are not.
I studied and found the 'ghost arm writing effect as well as two more stigmata effects. Have you or anybody else found one claimed non-stop motion effect film of a stigmata?

It's a thing that can easily be used to fool people just by using a pin. I don't believe it's actually real.

I must admit, Ive never actually seen anyone who suffered from stigmata in my life. Although I have seen movies etc on it and it seems to be pretty real. I'm not too sure whether it actually is though. I think I'd have to meet a person who has it to actually believe it.

to do a real elaberate one one can pinch the palm and create a blood blister. A needle can then be put through the blister and a thread can by rigged to tear the skin over the blister.

That it can. Although one would expect that to be a more painful approach.

Personally, I dont see anything divine about it. I think that its generally self inflicted either intentionally or not (in the case of mental illness for example.) If it is done intentionally I think it would be to just cause a stir and draw attention. Thousands of pilgrims always flocks to people and places such as this. It could turn into a very lucrative thing if presented correctly.

Our Lady of Watsonville (a likeness of the virgin mary in a sap blister of a tree. Pious fraud is a common occurrence. Like the mother in South America, her daught is said to be a "victim soul" people flock to see her .. on display. and she is claimed to show stigmata as well. She has been noted twice inflicting wounds (she claims to clean them) so really that is child abuse..

In some cultures it wouldn't be considered so.

I would question peoples devotion to a sign, how much assurance can we invest in an astonishing claim, whether we witness it , or only here testimony of someone who claims to have seen something. If I was to tell you I saw flying reindeer.. I expect you to ask me to produce tracks on a roof.

It's possible to believe something without needing proof. To some it's called faith.

I do indeed believe it's real. In fact, I witnessed it many years ago. It's not a pretty sight but it is amazing to see.

The after life is a mystery.. some are easily led to believe what others want completely on what they claim to be a peek at the other side. In your final hours will that sensation (feeling) be available.. I think not, I personal for that very reason seek a silent assurance, ever so subtle. perhaps I imagine outside possibilities. Yet I am still in my assurance. Why astonishment appeals to peoples faith is as much a mystery to to as what they claim they perceive. I know theatrics when I see theatrics. I like my performances labeled as such.

You aren't the only one, Cinn. ;P

There's usually a little truth behind everything; such in the case in superstition for example.

Even that article could put in a true believers views. ;]

Great article Cinn!

when people make claims to do something so exraordinary, they know that they will likely be scrutinized, so there is a buffer to prepare for such an occurence, and that is by attaching faith.. this goes to financial fraud as well. (stock fraud). So is the person drawing attention to a faith or drawing others away from a soul assurance to something they can produce/perform. Motive is usually the first thing to go out the door in so called Para Normal investigation, I like the full Title Para Normal Claim Investigator. I mean the only thing more phenomenal that what is claimed is the fact that such claims happen again and again.. A warehouse filled with the Arcs of the Coventant, and tear producing Statues, and bleeding roses. ash pulled out of thin air.. etc. etc.

I believe it's a mix of mental and emotion.

I don't think that it is real like seeing an image of the virgin Mary, or even meeting an angel it is quite a penomenon indeed something that many wish to believe and experince many christians that is...

I don't think that this paticular thing happends and if it has happend to anyone the why would be my question it has been written that jesus died for us he was torchered taking in all the worlds pain and suffering for our sins God gave his son with no mercy.

Why would the lord if infact the he does exist and Jesus had really truely lived on this earth allow a mortal true human born in the natural way have something like this happen to them?

I guess as a either a test or way of making them believe but god doesn't try to scare the turth into ppl I think it maybe the devils trickery if it does infact happen it is not the work of God but rather the enemy.

That is what many christians would say I my self am unable to choose what I believe at this time... what I want to worship weather it be god the goddess or am I truely destined for hell i"m not sure which path to really walk at this point in time..

Mental what, exactly? ;]

It's a well known fact Jesus didn't have nails put through his hands, they wouldn't of been able to take the bearing weight of the body, they were put through the wrists.

So that means all crucifixes are innacurate.

Usually Stigmata only happens to extreeemely religious people. But there have been a few "cases" were it has happened to Atheists.

To be such a hard core trickster and produce stigmata from the wrist.. whoa that I would pay to see.

I've never been a witness to anything like this. Sight alone would not make me a believer though. I would have to be convinced that there were no 'strings attached', so to speak.

I was born and raised a catholic, yet there are still plenty of things that the catholic religion does that I don't agree with. There are plenty of things that I need to see before believing and there are things that I must believe beyond a shadow. This is one of those things.

I don't believe that faith has anything to do with the 'stigmata' that's been portrayed. The word greed comes to my mind before faith.

I wouldn't pay to see it. However I would boot-leg something of the like. ;]

Then I would Digi Cord peoples response when watching it.

it's mind over matter -- nothing more .

but there are so many cases of it and it being a fraud.how do you weed out the real stigmatics from the fakes?

Thread closed for length.