Okay, please don't berade me with insults or anything.If this has been posted before Im sorry.
I just had a thought when I was talking with my grandmother about the Book of Genisis...I had no other subject at the time. So it is said that God Marked Cain, and all would know this mark. What if..now just a thought, This mark was to the color of his skin? Im not trying to be racial or anything, What if Cain was the First Black Male? It of course is just a thought, brought to me by my grandmother who is no racist either. Its very feasible do any of you agree?
What are your opinions on this matter?
If I remember correctly, my biblical history, which is in question, the races and languages were not sepearated until after the flood. If that is correct Kain would not have been any other race then the one at the start.
The real question I have is who the other people were since at the time of Kain and Abel there were only four of Gods image alive from Eden.
Very plausible theory. In fact, you're not the only one to think about this.
Look what I found
(...)"Today we examine a very closely related problem, that of race relations, of human brotherhood. In this story of Cain and Abel it is highlighted for us by what followed the cold-blooded murder of Abel". - by Ray C. Stedman
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said, "I do not know; Am I my brother's keeper?" (Genesis 4:9 RSV)
Found at:
http://www.pbc.org/dp/stedman/genesis/0322.html
Could this have been a prelude to what was to come between Man Kind, I mean, if two brothers can't get along because of jealusy, can they ever understand eachother if they don't even share the same physical charactheristics?
Well, The thing about the other people, God is all knowing blah blah blah, Back then people lived Quite a long time. If the stories are true, Abraham would have been above 900 years old when he died. Just a life expectancy thing.
Allow me to clarefy that I see the bible as a big book of metaphores.
The Babel Tower episode refferes to the different langages, but not the races of men.
"Therefore, it was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth" - Genesis 11:9
But I found an interesting web site that discusses exactly how it was possible that after Noah, people on Earth started developing defferent colours of skin. It's simple genetics.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/AnswersBook/races18.asp
Just stopping bye and saw this. I enjoy an occasional "History of the Bible" from the History Channel.
In regards to the "separate languages" from what I recall;
There was a land, before Noah, which the people created a building wrapping around a mountain. This mountain and building, with mans arrogance, defied God and attempted to touch him by their masterful building abuilities.
This angered God, and so He changed their languages as they worked. This confused them to the point that they stopped working. A lesson for man to teach him to stop building.
After this man has known language barriers, and through history tried to overcome this, unfortunately also resorting to wars from misunderstandings."
See the History Channel for further reference.
I have my own thoughts of Cain, but I'll keep those to myself. Sixteen years ago I was given the name Lilith. *shrug.
Go figure.
Just my two cents.
it has been thought before, as for the languages, God was not angered by the tower but in our present state, we could not be in His presence, it would kill us. That is why the tower had to be stopped.
the thing that interest me was where God says if we are unified then there is nothing that can be denied us.
in reply to sidhe the other people were the people that were not created by jehovah who was a tribal god of the hebrews but were created by the other gods not named by name in gensis where in hebrew it says we the elohium (not sure of spelling exactly to tired to look it up sigh) meaning we the gods plural created heaven and earth .
i agree with Sidhe...he has a very good point and that is what i remember from the bible...
thats a great idea/thought. Wow, not supposed to be thinking this hard so late at night!
I'm not really religious, but I do believe that it is passable. Several different religious books have done the same thing.
it's possible that it could have been color, but for what purpose? They didn't see race. They would have had no reason to fear him any more so.Altough if he were also the first vampire, that would have made him a better hunter and more attractive to Lilith.
The Bible...hmmm...my thoughts are simply this. There are not any things pointing to anything about the color of their skin. So I don't think any of us will truly ever know. I think the mark they were talking about was the mark that everyone of the human race would be his mark of evil. God makes the human race sound evil up until his son takes his own life for the human race...very nice stories:)
The mark was not color, but some sort of mark that showed him to be unclean. It may not even have been an actual physical, but could have even been something as simple (or complex) as an aura...
I think it would not have been fangs because that would only show when the mouth opened, unless it was like saber tooth teeth! It would have been a mark easily seen in both the light and the dark, and from some distance away. (Realize I'm talking in feet, not miles!)
It could be possible since the mark was supposed to be easily seen by other people so they would know not to kill him. But, personally, I have always thought that it was a simple branding of some sort. Interesting hypothesis though.
Thanks for your thoughts. Not a very thorough thought about the fangs, do a little more reading about how he became a vampire.
The aura is very possible as well, Branding not so sure about. It had to be something visible to all people, nothing you could hide under clothing. I suppose we won't know, and only speculate further.
Well as far as I know at least in my bible there isn't said that the first people were white neihter black or any other colour....
hey your welcome for my insignificant I didn't read this thread thought LOL. I hope youd like it.. LOL
You are such a dork Hatred...
Well deathnite, it doesn't state what color people were, but making an educated guess from the area the people were living in they were fairly tanned.
Yeah I know,your thread made me think infact,cause I';ve never tought about it.
I don't know about the mark,unfortunately I can't understand what it is either.
Anyone else have any ideas on this, I'd be very interested in what some of the other expierenced PM's would say, perhaps someone who has done extensive biblical research.
i haven't done much research on the topic so i'm prolly going to be dismissed quickly even though i'm not going to say that the mark had anything to do with color
I think skin color was just the adaptations that humans made. from what i've heard cain was marked and it was a kind of physical scarring that would show him to be damned so that his numerous relations would know to avoid him... it wasn't just adam, eve, cain, and abel at the time.
Ok, no one knows for sure what the mark was on Caine, as for the language divide, that was a result of the Tower of Babel. God was speaking to someone and said that if we were not divided we would do anything we set our minds to and that we could not be allowed to enter the throne room. So he divided our languages so we would not be able to communicate.
never even thought about it *pauses* thats very instresting
aahh cain the one who killed his brother.
cain was marked or cursed on his blood line as i remember in genesis.
yep... his entire bloodline was cursed, that's why many believe vampire's originated with him (i'm not sure where i stand on who was the first so don't insult me... at least not to harshly... for my ignorance)
yea it could be posible but wouldnt god then make the mark white so it was visable?
it could be... i would think of it like a huge scar... kinda like in full metal alchemist how the ishbal exiles have the markings
i don't think color would really matter either so long as it was a visible mark. it could also shift colors to change with your own skin, for instance if i go and get a tan it would darken or lighten to stay visible... after all it is God doing the cursing.
i do have a biblical theory about the races. it envolves everyone coming from adam and eve. who were a perfect mix of all the races, genetically that would be perfect. anyone who wishes to discuss this more send me a message
I have heard this before from some one else who ends up being very narrow minded, or sound as such. Personally, from what I read, its supposed to be a birth mark, and anyone who kills Cain, will suffer death 10 great then that of which they did to cain himself.
Each religion has its own veiw on the mark of Cain. Personally, I do not believe to be a physical mark, but one we can tell at the veiw of a persons true self, soul, if anything. Yet, its hard to see murderers and such, so which would be the reason why sin hides much from those who look.
- Sin
off subject if Adam and eve were both white. hmm where did all the black people,asians, spanish etc etc etc come from?
In no part of the Bible it is stated that Adam and Eve were white. It is said that god made Man in his own image, but does that refer to the color of the skin? Where?
From what I've read in the Bible, it does ~not~ say what color God, Adam, Eve, Caine, Abel, or the others were. Color differences emerged later, as did language differences.
Yes, Caine was marked for his sin so that all would see it and recognize it, and yes, it is said whosoever may harm Caine would suffer his pain ten-fold. It doesn't say what the actual mark is anywhere in the Bible, but I must admit I haven't studied it intensely... Also, there are differences from one Bible to the next, and we need to consider what may have been lost in translation and due to consequent editing. (The Catholic Bible is far from the oldest or truest!)
Think about how much sin is rampant in our world - murderers, rapists, and such... ~They all "look" like all the rest of us!~ No, sometimes you must look for the aura if you are able to see them, or look into their souls... There is truth in the whole "the eyes are the window to the soul" thing!
Wow I didn't realize this was still going. You know all great thoughts. But I still wonder. WHERE THE FUCK is the Land of NOD?! No one knows. I asked a priest that and he didn't know.
alot of research has gone into finding it... i have a couple theories but for the sake of trying to back myself up i'm not going to say any ;)
many think it's the fertile crescent though
sounds interesting i supose posible too
but there are so many translations of the bible you can never be sure what is right
Cain betrayed his flesh and blood simple as that. But in the Bible God made two perfect humans in the garden, but, never any where does it say that he did or did not make more after they were cast out of the Garden of Eden.
MortalitaslAnimus the Land of Nod was Destroyed in the great Deluge. As for its where abouts it was more then likly in the middle east, probably somewhere not to terriable far from Eden.
- Sin
oops. I was going to say that the Land of Nod was in the creative mind of White Wolf...But maybe she got the name from some real source. Better look into it.
Actaully Nod was real and so was Enoch. Yet, White Wolf is good at bending things around so it fits for their purposes.
- Sin
...And aparentlly I was wrong, and you're right, Sin.
"Nod
In the Biblical book of Genesis (4:16), after Cain murdered Abel, he went into exile to the "land of Nod, east of Eden". Nod means "wandering".
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/concordance/real/n_real.htm
Actually there is a bit of debat about Nod. Some say its the Land known as Nod or Cain was said to be Nod, as in he was wandering in the lands away from Eden.
- Sin
Makes sense, if the Land of Nod was an actual place (some sort of purgatory, a land of nothing) or an actual reference to Cain him self as a vagabond, a suffering vagabond (I can only begin to grasp the amount of pain that one must feel when has nothing but it's thoughts and regrets as company...)
look what I found, concerning that:
"Land of Nod (The). To go to the land of Nod is to go to bed. There are many similar puns and more in French than in English. Of course, the reference is to Gen. iv. 16, “Cain went ... and dwelt in the land of Nod;” but where the land of Nod is or was nobody knows. In fact, “Nod” means a vagrant or vagabond, and when Cain was driven out he lived “a vagrant life,” with no fixed abode, till he built his “city.”
found at:
http://www.bootlegbooks.com/Reference/PhraseAndFable/data/727.html#land--of--nod
See who says you don't learn something new everyday?
Its actually interesting when you look into some of the stuff White Wolf publishes as historical vampire sites.
- Sin
that's a new one for me. you DO learn something new everyday!
i agree that after the Flood everything was altered though... i wouldn't be surprised if the garden was in an underwater cavern where it still thrives... kinda like the Genesis cavern in Star Trek (i know that it seems farfetched though)
Very true Sin, that's why I'm in this web site: to learn. And it's working. : )
It all really depends on your religous background I used to be Baptist till I converted to Buddhism
Maybe it is the other way around, lol, just a thought, maybe cain was the first white
Has anyone ever thought the first vampire could have been one of the nephelin the children of angels who found beauty in the daughters of men.
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Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 30,117 [ Give / Take ] |
All it will ever be is an opinion, as with much of the Bible. Since the Bible does not explain- it will forever ONLY be opinion and nothing else. To describe simply, here is a cut and paste from Wikipedia:
The nature of Cain's mark is unspecified in the Bible. In popular mythology, however, the mark has been thought to be a mark on the forehead, or possibly red hair. Formerly, a widespread belief was that the mark of Cain was black skin. This idea was used as an argument in favor of slavery; however, that view has generally fallen out of favor as a baseless justification for enslavement.
I think that the mark it's more something metaphoric than something really visible.
I think it was like a crime mark.
And who knows that what's written in whatever is the bible is true?From studies...maybe but we can't be sure since we didn't live those days.
In this, my thoughts about Cain stand as this... He was the Son of Lillith, this explains his ability to kill Abel without so much as a flick or bat or an eyelid. Lillith, being one of free will ( or so one should thnk as she left the garden first etc and exhibited all the signs of such ) would have imbibed this onto Cain... Hence the mark.
The texts stating Cain was the Son of Eve have been changed his birthright as the texts (recent etc ) have eliminated Lillith from the Genisis... because of her undeniable self-control from God's will and from Adam's...
Random thoughts for you to think through... Remember, the Victor always changes history for He/She has won the right to.
- Vix
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Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 30,117 [ Give / Take ] |
Vix- excellent opnion. I think I would be more inclined to believe that.
deathnite- what you say also makes a lot of sense. Saying there was a mark on Cain could have been something that was just 'understood', not necessarily physical.
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Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 30,117 [ Give / Take ] |
actually sidhe there were five alive during this time ...adam..lillith..eve..kain and abel. and jealousy is a big thing with siblings this is the very first case and the very first set or siblings it happned to .. good info tears!
id come to say the jewish bible is the oldest translation and where a good bit of catholic/christian bibles come from .there so much info to research its insane
aimee skin colors got darker as ppl moved to different areas and were in the sun far more then they were in eden under the willow trees that we often see depicted but i could be wrong to .but it makes sense you move from eden in the middle east to africa and well you get the picture lol
That you would Batchyld, and funnily enough I believe alot of people of this thread have alot in truth and common and theorectically are correct.
Thank you to the one who started the thread, it's proven alot mor fascinating as it's come along.
- Vix
To tell you the truth when you look at it it never really explains in enough detail to know what Cain started as. It's just assumed that we all started as one race and after the great flood were sepparated from each other and developing more difference than ever. But what you say could very well be correct. But we won't know for a long time.
sciencetifically it would make sence for him to be black if you think about the location he was in
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Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 30,117 [ Give / Take ] |
Not so much black really in that area. Dark Arabs, yes. But evenso, I have been following a lot of research these days on new genetic DNA testing. This tells you your exact ethnicity. Some people don't know all of their ethnicity. It can tell what specific tribes that African Americans came from- since the majority came here as slaves they have never been able to pin point their exact origin- now they can :)
The testing also shows that even white people came from the African continent- then migrated from there. I didn't know this until I saw news programs about it. And it even goes down to tell you if your neandrthral ancestors were canivores, herbivores, or omnivores.
THERE IS ONLY ONE RACE... THE HUMAN RACE. IT MAY BE POSSIBLE THAT CAIN WAS MARKED WITH A BRAND, SOME KIND OF VISIBLE MARK, OR HE MAY HAVE BEEN MARKED WITH COLOR, BUT IT DOESN'T SAY WHAT COLOR, MAYBE HE WAS MARKED A LIGHTER COLOR? FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
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Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 30,117 [ Give / Take ] |
it doesn't say at all- that is the point of the thread, what could the mark be? Of course we are all the same as in 'the human race'- but specifically, we do all have different backgrounds and cultures. There is a widespread belief that Cain was turned a different color. It could be a lighter color as the the others could have been darker. We just don't know.
whos cain? why read the bible? i mean you get tough it word from word at school or in church so why read it....
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Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 30,117 [ Give / Take ] |
Most of us read because we crave knowledge- this is not a necessity for everyone. We don't have to accept it as our end all be all life instruction - would it not be egotistical to assume the Bible contained no wisdom? I am not a Christian- but my life's drive is to learn about everyone. I want to understand my fellow man/woman as best I can, and this attainment shall pave a smooth road for me and my interactions with others.
And anyway- how can you disagree with something you are empty-headed about? We learn- because knowledge is power, friend. I also read the Koran, and I am definitely not a Muslim.
The Q'ran or Koran ( depending on your source of spelling ), is a fascinating read.
I admit, that despite the way it is also interpreted by it's own extremists etc. It makes far more sense and has far better clarity than than any Bible, I have read.
So if one wants another edge to the story, the Koran will give it to you, and it's up to the one reading to make up their own mind.
- Vix
In the Bible, Cain was the first murderer. Cain, after several years of sacrificing his most prized stock of produce to God, and having God deny the sacrific, then watch his brother Able be blessed for sacrificing his most prized sheep to God, he would murder Abel and sacrifice him to God.
With this God asked Cain 'Where Art thou Brother" and Cain would Reply "I am not thy brothers keeper"
With that God knew Cain had killed his brother, and from that, was casted out of Eden and marked.
Depending on the different versions of religion will depend on the veriation of the story of Cain. As for the Mark, it was never said what the mark was. Some believe its the mark of the skin being turned black. Which in turn was the sign that black people were evil, which in this day and age, isn't true, I feel that was made by white biggots who liked slavery.
Some say it was a red birthmark on the chest or back in the shape of a cross. Some say it was a black cross marked on the skin of the forehead.
- SIn
I do not feel the mark was changing of his skin color. Noah's son was punished with that change. If I remember correctly.
Another view of the metaphorical mark of Cain is this mark signifies Cain's removal from God, the removal of his own vital humanity, and his separation from his righteous brethren.
I never understood that story anyway. He marks Cain so no one else will hurt him... giving him fangs or such wouldn't help...
Skin color wasn't seperated until after they tried to build a tower to heaven.
Neither was language.
Here is what I have digged up on Cain.
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Cain and Abel are english renderings of the Hebrew names קַיִן / קָיִן and הֶבֶל / הָבֶל, respectively, from the bible. In the modern Standard Hebrew transliteration, these are rendered Qáyin and Hével / Hável, wheras in Tiberian Hebrew they are rendered Qáyin / Qāyin and Héḇel / Hāḇel. In the Qur'an, Abel is named as Hābīl (هابيل), but Cain is not named, though Islamic tradition records his name as Qābīl (قابيل).
A, once common, English folk etymology held that Abel was composed from ab and el, effectively meaning source of God. However, this is a fallacy, as the original hebrew only contains the three letters HVL (הָבֶל), which is quite different from ABEL (אבאל). Biblically, the word Hevel (Abel) appears in Ecclesiastes in a context implying it should be translated pointless (the King James Version translates it as vanity, which at the time of translation had the same English meaning, but does no longer), and also appears, in the masoretic text, at 1 Samuel (at 6:18) apparantly with the meaning lamentation. Both biblical uses are traditionally taken to imply that Abel's name is a pun, in reference to Abel's brief life.
The bible gives a folk etymology for Cain's name, probably more for the sake of humour rather than accuracy - And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said I have gotton a man from the LORD. The word here translated gotton being qanithi in the orinal hebrew, a word derived from qanah (to get), and hence word-play on qayin, though there is no etymological relationship between these two words. (See Allen C. Myers, et.al.). Some have proposed the name should be identified with the Assyrian word aplu, simply meaning son, though it is more plausible that the traditional interpretation is correct, namely that is strongly connected to the meaning lance/spear.
Academic considerations have produced a different interpretation, a more direct pun. Abel is here thought to derive from a word meaning herdsman, with the modern Arabic cognate ibil, which now more specifically means camels. Cain (qayin / qyn), on the other hand, is thought to be cognate to the mid-1st millenium BCE South Arabian word word qyn, meaning metal smith (See Richard S. Hess, Studies in the Personal Names of Genesis 1-11, ISBN 3-7887-1478-6. pp. 24-25). Hence their names are merely descriptions of the roles they take in the story - Abel as a pastoral farmer, and Cain as an agriculturist.
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The story
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Summary
The Torah presents a brief account of the brothers. It states that Cain was a tiller of the land while his younger brother Abel was a shepherd, and that one day they both offered sacrifice to God, Cain offering fruit and grain, and Abel offering fresh meat from his flock. For an unspecified reason, God favours Abel's sacrifice, and subsequently Cain murders Abel, for another unspecified reason, often assumed simply to be jealousy over God's favouritism. The Torah continues with God apparently unable to find either Abel or his body, or at least not admitting to doing so, and so questioning Cain about Abel's location. In a response that has become a well known saying, Cain answers Am I my brother's keeper?.
Finally, in the Torah, seeing through Cain's deception, as the voice of [Abel's] blood is screaming to [God] from the ground, God curses Cain to wander the earth. Cain is overwhelmed by this and appeals in fear of being killed by other men, and so God places a mark on Cain so that he would not be killed, stating that whomsoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be upon him sevenfold. Cain then departs, to the land wandering. Early translations instead stated that he departed to the Land of Nod, which is generally considered a mistranslation of the hebrew word Nod, meaning wandering. Despite being cursed to wander Cain is later mentioned as fathering a lineage of children, and founding a city, which he named Enoch after the name of his son.
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Motives
To explain God's preference for Abel's offering, Judaism has traditionally pointed to the blood sacrifices (korbanot) as ordained in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and elsewhere. The New Testament, on the other hand, says that Abel made his offering one of faith (Hebrews 11:4), wheras Cain was inherently evil (1 John 3:12). Mormonism adds to this that Cain worships Satan, in preference to God, and only makes the sacrifice to God because Satan asked him to.
Although most post-mediaeval Judao-Christian groups have interpreted Cain's motive in killing Abel as simply being one of jealousy concerning God's favouritism of Abel, this is not the older view. The Midrash, as well as the Qur'an, records that the real motive involved the desire of women. According to Midrashic tradition, Cain and Abel each had twin sisters, whom they were to marry. The Midrash and Qur'an record that Abel's promised wife was the more beautiful, and hence Cain desired to rid himself of Abel, whose presence was inconvenient. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Community of Christ, there is a different view, found in part of their scripture, the Book of Moses (part of the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible), which describes that Cain's motive is still jealousy, but it is Abel's livestock that he is jealous of.
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Abel's death
While the Torah merely states that Cain killed Abel, the Midrash records the tradition that the two brothers fought, until Abel, who was the stronger of the two, overcame Cain, but mercifully spared his life. Cain, however, took Abel unawares and, overpowering him, killed him. The exact method of murder varies with some traditions proposing a stone, others a cane, and others by strangulation. Mediaeval traditions viewed the murder weapon as being a plough. The Qur'anic version is similar, stating that Abel refused to defend himself from Cain, and hence, in the view of some liberal movements within Islam, Abel is the primary Qur'anic proponent of pacifism and non-violence.
In Christianity, comparisons are sometimes made between the death of Abel and that of Jesus. In the Gospel of Matthew (at 23:35), Jesus speaks of Abel as righteous. The Epistle to the Hebrews however states that The blood of sprinkling ... [speaks] better things than that of Abel (Hebrews 12:24), i.e. the blood of Jesus is interpreted as demanding mercy (as per Christian belief about Jesus' death) but that of Abel as demanding vengeance (hence the curse and mark).
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Burial
William Blake's The Body of Abel Found by Adam and EveAlthough not explicit, God's apparant inability to identify the corpse of Abel has lead many to assume that Abel is meant to have been buried, or at least hidden, at this point. Since at this point in the story, no-one had ever died, and hence there had been no need for burial, and the concept was unknown. In the Talmud, the corpse remained unburied for some time, Abel's dog keeping away predators and scavengers, until at God's command, two turtle-doves flew down in front of Adam and Eve, one dying when it landed. The other dug a hollow place and moved the dead one into it, hence Adam and Eve did likewise to Abel's body. The Midrash records the opinion that the place of murder was cursed to be desolate forever, with later Jewish tradition identifying it as Damascus.
In the Qur'an, it was Cain who buried Abel, and he was prompted to do so by a single raven scratching the ground, on God's command. The Qur'an states that upon seeing the raven, Cain regretted his action, and that rather than being cursed by God, since he hadn't done so before, God chose to create a law against murder:
if anyone slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people; and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.
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In the underworld
In classical times, as well as more recently, Abel was regarded as the first innocent victim of the power of evil, and hence the first martyr. In the esoteric Book of Enoch (at 22:7), the soul of Abel is described as having been appointed as the chief of martyrs in Sheol, crying for vengeance, for the destruction of the seed of Cain. This view is later repeated in the Testament of Abraham (at A:13 / B:11), where Abel has been raised to the position as the judge of the souls:
an awful man sitting upon the throne to judge all creatures, and examining the righteous and the sinners. He being the first to die as martyr, God brought him hither [to the place of judgment in the nether world] to give judgment, while Enoch, the heavenly scribe, stands at his side writing down the sin and the righteousness of each. For God said: I shall not judge you, but each man shall be judged by man. Being descendants of the first man, they shall be judged by his son until the great and glorious appearance of the Lord, when they will be judged by the twelve tribes of Israel, and then the last judgment by the Lord Himself shall be perfect and unchangeable.
According to the Coptic Book of Adam and Eve (at 2:1-15), and the Syriac Cave of Treasures, Abel's body, after many days of mourning, was placed in the Cave of Treasures, before which Adam and Eve, and descendants, offered their prayers. In addition, the Sethite line of the Generations of Adam swear by Abel's blood to segregate themselves from the unrighteous.
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Mark of Cain
Main article: Curse and mark of Cain
Much has been written about the curse of Cain, and associated mark. The word translated as mark could mean a sign, omen, warning, or remembrance. In the Torah, the same word is used to describe the stars as signs or omens, circumcision as a token of God's covenant with Abraham, and the signs performed by Moses before Pharaoh. Although most scholars believe the writer of this part of the story had a clear reference in mind that readers would understand, there is very little consensus today as to exactly what the mark could have been.
Early Syriac Christianity interpreted the mark as a permanent change in skin colour, i.e. that Cain was turned Black. This re-emerged amongst protestant groups, and the curse was often used by them in some attempts to justify racism of one form or another, such as the slave trade, banning interracial marriage, and apartheid. These views have since been disowned by most protestant groups, many now pointing to the tale of Snow-white Miriam as a counter argument, although Christian Identity groups tend to support the interpretation though swapping Blackness being the curse for Jewishness. It is significant to note that these interpretations were not, and are not, recognised by the Mar Thoma groups, Orthodox Christianity, Roman Catholicism, or Coptic Christianity.
Baptist and Catholic groups both consider the idea of God cursing an individual to be out of character, and hence take a different stance. Catholics officially view the curse being brought by the ground itself refusing to yield to Cain, wheras some Baptists view the curse as Cain's own aggression, something already present that God merely pointed out rather than added. Conversely, in popular culture, since victorian times, Cain's bloodlust has often seen him being portrayed as the progenitor of vampires. An even more Satanic role is seen in Latter-day Saint theology, where Cain is considered to be Satan's master, the quintessential Son of Perdition, though this title is not technically appropriate since Cain is here seen as Perdition itself, the father of secret combinations - secret societies and organized crime, as well as the first to hold the title Master Mahan - master of [the] great secret, that [he] may murder and get gain.
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Wanderer
As, in the Torah, Cain was ordered to wander the earth in punishment, a tradition arose that this punishment was to be forever, in a similar manner to the (much later) legend of the Flying Dutchman. Around the turn of the 17th century, a similar legend concerning a Wandering Jew came into existance, though, since its identified origin in a pamphlet is shrouded in mystery, it is not currently possible to ascertain if this legend is simply the Christianisation of the Cain legend, or has another origin.
Though variations on these traditions were strong in mediaeval times, with several claims of sightings being reported, they have generally gone out of favour. Nevertheless, both the Wandering Jew legend, and that more specifically concerning a Wandering Cain, re-appeared in in Mormon folklore (but not scripture). The last known claim of a sighting of the Wandering Jew appears to have been in the United States in the year 1868, when he was reported to have visited a Mormon named O'Grady (see Desert News, September 23, 1868). Shortly after, another early Mormon - David W. Patten - claimed to have encountered a very tall, hairy, dark-skinned man in Tennessee who said that he was Cain, that he had earnestly sought death but was denied it, and that his mission was to destroy the souls of men. Patten's story is quoted in Spencer W. Kimball's The Miracle of Forgiveness, which is very popular amongst Mormons, and hence how most are aware of it, some connecting the legend with Bigfoot.
Despite these later traditional beliefs of perpetual wandering, according to the earlier Book of Jubilees (chapter 4) Cain settled down, marrying his sister, Awan, resulting in his first son, Enoch (considered to be different to the more famous Enoch), approximately 196 years after the creation of Adam. Cain then established the first city, naming it after his son, built a house, and lived there until it collapsed on him, killing him in the same year that Methuselah died.
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Origin
In critical scholarship, the prevailing theory is that the story is composed of a number of layers, with the original layer deriving from the Sumerian tale of the wooing of Inanna. In the tale, seen as representing the ancient conflict between nomadic herders and settled agrarian farmers, Dumuzi, the god of shepherds, and Enkimdu, the god of farmers, are competing for the attention of Inanna, chief goddess. Dumuzi is brash and aggressive, but Enkimdu is placid and easy going, so Inanna favours Enkimdu. However, on hearing this, Dumuzi starts boasting about how great he is, and exhibits such strong charisma that Enkimdu tells Inanna to marry Dumuzi and then wanders away.
The biblical correspondence in this theory being God to Inanna, Abel, the shepherd, to Dumuzi, and Cain, the farmer, to Enkimdu, and equating only to the competetive part of the story, Cain wandering away, and the extra-biblical traditions concerning the involvement of a beautiful woman. The presence of sacrifices, rather than mere words, in the biblical story, is sometimes seen as simply the priesthood's spin on the story, to emphasise that one form of sacrifice is better than the other.
In later mythology, though still prior to 1500BC, Dumuzi had become conflated with Enkimdu, and so acted as a general agricultural deity, though still retaining some of the earlier myths. In his more general role, since he was responsible for the yearly crop-cycle, Dumuzi became seen as a life-death-rebirth deity. Exactly how the myth fits in with the marriage of Dumuzi to Inanna is not clear, since the surviving copies of the myth abruptly begin with Inanna descending to the underworld for an unknown reason. Innana can only escape by exchanging herself for a god not in the underworld, and so considers each of them in turn. Dumuzi is only too glad she has gone, and so, in anger, she sends demons upon him, and he dies, thus releasing her. She then changes her mind, showing favour, and bringing Dumuzi back by persuading his sister to take his place for 6 months each year (hence starting the annual cycle).
This murder of Dumuzi is thought, critically, to be the source of the murder of Abel. Since God, unlike Inanna, was seen as being powerful enough not to get stuck in the underworld, he would have had no need to escape, and so no motive to kill Abel, hence the blame shifting to the jealous Cain/Enkimdu. The part of the story involving perpetual annual resurrection and death is not given to Abel, who is supposedly merely mortal.
The Bible makes reference on several occasions to Kenites, who, in the Hebrew, are referred to as Qayin, i.e. in a highly cognate manner to Cain (Qayin). The Mark of Cain is thus believed to originally refer to some very identifying mark of the Kenite tribe, such as red hair, or a ritual tattoo of some kind, which was transferred to Cain as the tribe's eponym. The protection the mark is said to afford Cain (harming Cain involving the harm being returned sevenfold) is hence seen as some sort of protection that membership of the tribe offered, in a form such as the entire tribe attacking an individual who harms just one of their number, similar to, for example, how an attack on a single US Marshal would provoke the army.
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Internet, such a great resource.
Folks, whatever supposed mark some supposed god put upon some supposed Cain for whatever supposed misdead or crime he committed would not be so easily identifyiable to anyone as that of the color of any race's skin. If it were, then why is it always the black color that everyone wonders about?
You are assuming that this mark of evil was to make Cain's skin black, but what if this mark of evil was to make Cain's skin white? Or his eyes slanted, or his hair red? Or blue eyes? A sixth toe or finger? Huh?
Of course, this is not a question of race, right? Give me a break.
Folks, poeple are the skin color they are, because that is the color they need to be in order to survive the environments they are exposed to in their part of the world! There is no other reason for skin color other than MELANIN. Look it up and you'll learn that white people are white because they don't need any more color than that in order for their skin's to surviv the sun in England or anyother snow ridden country in Northern Europe. They are not special, good or evil, or whatever. Conversely, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics are all the colors they need to be depending on how harshly the sun beats on their neck of the woods. Skin color and all the other racial features are an evolutionary response to the environment. Period. They are not a punishment from any dumb-a*s god. And they certainly have nothing to do with any one man. Comprende?
You don't have to get so damn bitchy about it. It was merely a question. And it very well could have been race, it could have been anything. You keep saying supposed, I swear if you belive in the devil you damn well better acknowledge a god.
okay, wow, sin..thank you so much. Im glad to have people like you around here.
I wasn't getting 'bitchy.' I was stating my opinion, which is something you should consider. And NO, I don't believe in a devil or a god. I think the bible and its hate-mongering ignorace should be banned. So there churchy! Ponder that. And for future reference, your question IS on the border for racism justified through religion, and for my part I'm not fooled.
"Cain" has been the White Christians' biblical justification to openly discriminate against any and all peoples of color, whether they are Black (the prefered evil stock in their eyes), Red, Yellow, Purple, Pink... You get the picture. It is one of the stories they tried to spoon feed me on Sundays for the purpose of developing my sense of prejudism. It didn't work. It made me see their 'true colors' and just how FALSE their god and devils are.
Trust me BlackVamp, you are not missing much.
well in that part of the country have dark skin because of the climite and being outside alot
oh man i read it all O.o
like a history lesson
I think i kno hu cain is now?
not sure...
Maybe he was fbm
Jesus Fucking Mary Magdaline!!! Im not racist, My grandmother very well may be. She was the one that posed the question to me. So what?!!! Im not racist, I have nothing against Africans, English, Asian, Native, or any other race. Next time you want to accuse someone of having racist thoughts think about what they are first. Im a freaking Mexican, irish, Scottish, German, French mix!. I have no one to have racism for. Hell I make fun of my own race more than anyone else. Hey maybe Cain was Mexican we steal, we stab, and we lie a lot. Shut your mouth.
yes it was your opinion, but you stated it in a very bitchy manner. Justification for racism. Jesus, what kkk member slapped you across the face with their rendition of the bible?!
I posed the question, I brought up the subject on this thread, but If I were at all racist I'd sure as hell not enjoy Ray Charles, Admire Al Sharpton for his views, bob my head along to Tupac and many other things of "black" culture. How dare you mistake my simple inquery for racism.
wow i never thought of that and now that you mention it that is quite possible to have been it
OKay everyone hold on. I'm not a moderator but I think I should step in at this point. I understand the veiws from both parties and the only reason this was brought up was because that is what someone heard and wanted to see what other ideas were taught to the masses.
I understand everyone doesn't believe in One God or believe that the church should be about. Yet, that is something better discussed in a cool headed situation and not flying off the handle at anyone.
Also please watch the language just a bit, I know how it gets when tempers flare, yet when one looses their cool it only shows that the other person doesn't have control over themselves.
The Ideal of Cain maybe having black skin wasn't something normally taught in church. If my studies were right, not sure if they were or not, the ideal of Cain's skin being turned black came about during the time of slavery.
I'm not 100% sure on this, this is hear say that I got from someone else. Yet the mark of the Betrayer can be many things. This is what this thread was originally posted about.
I do not believe Cain was marked in the traditional sense, infact, if anything, it would be something within the spirit, something we can sense.
Yet, I believe, since this work has been covered with sin and the ability to sense this inpurity of spirit, this lack of humanity has been clouded and hard to feel now.
- Sin
very nicely stated Sin. I couldnt agree with you more on the way you handled and stated what you did on your last post ....no need to go getting frazzled and mad,it's not worth it .We all have different thoughts and upbringings and education....i'd like to see the thread stay open so please let's everyone calm down and get back into discussing this topic its interesting to see different views.
Now my thoughts im hitting back on the location of the land of nod... could it be possible the land of nod is todays present kuwait or even israel? or lebanon?yes all three areas are somewhat far from each other minus israel and lebanon they are close but the three to me make sense in alot of ways .just a thought :)
well Nod means Land of Wanderers or a.k.a Wander, vagabound, ect.
So perhaps it was meant as in Cain was meant to travel the world outside of Eden
well then my suggestions of areas does make since since he did wander a good long while :D
Not sure if anyone else has said this but if that was the mark..It was more likely he was made white... They where after all in the middle east...Not a typicaly white skinned area lol...
i am not that religious... but i agree with what u wrote there
Sorry about the outburst, I just don't like being accused of racisism, especially through christianity, since Im Pagan.As well considering I was raised in Washington, I hadn't really expierenced true racism until I had visited my family back in San Diego, try getting a baton in your kidney just for mentioning your rights. Then come talk to me about what racism is. But I agree with you sin, It doesn't excuse my languege or tone.
Thanks again, Such great information you have provided here Sin, and thank the rest of you for your thoughts.
the bible a bunch of made up stories made to make the jews (who wrote it) feel better bout themselves and give them rules to live by
In exception to a select few,... ever notice how those who downtalk the bible are those who can't take a candle to grammer? *shrug* Thats what I've noticed whenever there was a huge debate that involved religion/spirituality.
This topic has really progressed...
I've read through the ENTIRE THING!
Now... heres something that has come to my mind out of brooding. I've been toying a little with this possibility,... although it has no extensive research, I don't imagine. This somewhat came to me creatively, in contemplation if they were linked at all...
Cains mark...
(for the record, there is no way his mark can be color. That is proven to be Melanin, and at the same time, I accuse no one of remotely any racism)
But we learn about Cains mark at Genesis, the beginning of the bible, compiled of all the knowledge you've gathered so far.
Now what if... just for wonderings sake... we flipped the bible over to Revelations, to the mark of the anti-christ.
This is true opinion...
Do you think they could come to be the exact same mark?
Who wrote the story of Cain?? I didn't think anyone there really wrote it down. First murderer?? There are stories of POLITICAL intrigue and murder and full blown conspiracies that are thousands of years older than the drivel from the mesopotamian sector. I don't think Cain is even a significant historical figure let alone the progenitor of any seperate "race" or anything of the kind. but that's just a historical perspective.
Yes I realize that thinking Cain's mark was a mark of color was very stupid. I failed to think about the many other possibilities. I thank you all for your insight, even if it is arrogant, or completely ignorant.
I understand about the racism thing. I lived in Arkansas for about two years and there is a town or city down there known as Cabit, which is known for alot of its members to be apart of teh KKK. I'm white, but I still do not tolerate that type of behavoir myself. I have friends that are black and I have family members who are hispanic and such.
- Sin
Indeed Racism is something that needs to be removed from society, yet something that will never happen.
- Sin
Not exactly sure what your refuring to dedprince. We are talking about cain and your off in your own little world.
- Sin
actually, Adam and Eve were probably Arabic. Yet, no one can really say either.
Holy crap, yet again it seems this started to become a "pagan vs christian" thing.
In an off topic type reply I have to say I've seen pagan's who end up getting far worse then some christians as far as the whole "you're wrong we're right" thing.
On topic, now I'm gonna have to go re-read stuff I have long forgotten and get back to ya.
Ah, well umm sorry anarchist Deadprince, But there always has been, and always will be a form of leadership in the world. Its in the fabric of nature so hope you realize that soon.
And we ended that stupid christian pagan fued. And stop saying "interesting theory" We know you are just spamming the threads!!
Good thoughts all around on this one had never thought of possibly being marked with color before. I know growing up we heard God marked him but never was explained with what, always kind of wondered about that.
Very good idea, not to be racist but that would be the one mark one could give to another that no one could dispute. It would be like if someone marked you neon Purple i think people would notice, not like a symbol or something like that
Good topic i have to say, even though the Bible and all these other scrips were put togeather even after Jesus had died... certin things were made, and thrown away according to the people whom made it. We cant really know how that came to be or about the skin or languages but remember how much dispute was put over that very matter. Its an ongoing question and anwser.
See the thing about the Bible, is the fact the Jewish Koran came before it. Infact with what I'm reading it tells that the Koran is basicly the old testments within the New Christian Bible. So with that, it can only be read into more deeply if one wishes to delve into the Jewish side of the occult.
- Sin
Hey sin, For everyone in here including myself. Do you know of an online site that would have all the writing of the Jewish Koran?
Not sure, I would have to do some hunting around for it.
- Sin
in genesis it said that god created the world then earth then man then he created those in the garden of adam and eve however eve was not adams first wife infact lilith was she was so disgusted with adam she fled the garden and god created eve from adams rib
as for kain being black dont know only they would know
however some suspect this mark to be that of one no man would touch him for maybe kain was the first victim of lepresy
That could be true. I need to ask, does anyone know why Lilith left Adam?
- Sin
According to some Hebrew legend, Lilith took offense to the submissive position Adam demanded of her when they first lay down together. She considered herself his equal, being made from the same dust as he, and he tried to force her into obedience.
Hey someone researched. Yet, yeah that is the reason why she left Adam.
- Sin
Uhmm... Not to be a vain intellectual or bring up a dead topic... but the OT is not called the 'Jewish Koran'.
... Its called the Torah.
Just thought you should know so you could correct that.
Sin i would've replied to this sooner but siobhan said it right as you've already said .Good job Siobhan hehe
It's still undetermined what the mark was that was left with caine and i fear in all honesty it shall remain as such.