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So, I dunno if this is going in the right section.. but what the heck.
Okay, so I know that the media has corrupted everyones views on vampires- but what about everyones views of werewolves and lycans? Do you guys see a difference between the two? If so- what is it?

See- I believe that a werewolf is a person who can shift into a wolf- whereas a lycan- deriving from the word lycanthropy is more of a mental and emotion and well- tie of the soul to a form that perhaps it once has as a wolf before. (lycanthropy being a mental illness- but we're not using the word in THAT way)

So whatd you guys think?

I think it is ridiculous.

No one can turn into a wolf, you can have all the traits of a wolf in the world but it doesn't make you one. Turn off the tv, stop watching underworld. It is bad enough that people want to get away with calling themselves vampires but you can fake that you cant fake being a werewolf, what a slap in the face to everyone when someone thinks they can get away with that.

from underworld lycans retain their human shape pretty much... and werewolves just change into wolves it just very strange and weird i dont really care much for werewolves but i love wovles themselves

Well some native american people say that elders talk of a time when there people could change into wolves, eagles,and bears. But dose that give validity to werewolf truth......?
Then again I believe in alot of strange things.

Didn't say every instance was :)

All I said it that there is no basis for factual actual werewolfism. Outside of folklore that is. People claim to be werewolves, and that to me is comical. I suppose it would be wrong of me to say the same about people who claim to be cats?

The fables are wonderful, but that is all they are. If someone claims to be a werewolf, id like them to prove to me what about them is physiologically different from a regular human being. This is all of course UNLESS people have contorted the word werewolf the way they have the word vampire.

I am native american and well what some believe to be Indian Fables or just wives tales, I on the other hand totally believe that the actually could not turn into a wolf par say yet, they could relate and reach into the realm in which they live..lived. My mother is full blooded native amer. and she has always enforced strong belief in our heritage. I have experienced a sweat tepee(tent) and believe me there is something to that whole other realm. well just my 2 cents on it.

Every legend has to have a start. They have some basis in fact. Where did the first stories come from? the first legends?
Do I personally believe in them, no. but that doesnt make the notion ridiculous.

Of course everything has a basis but that is very irrelevant seeing as though the way stories turn out down the line is 100% different from what it started out as. And I do believe we have more imagination that many give us credit for, after all those beginning stories had to come straight from imagination to begin with. A minnow becomes a catfish after a years time of telling a story. If you want to do a very effective experiment to prove this all you have to do is play a game of telephone and even 7 people down the line it wont be the same.

Ah my point I was trying to make, just because the original details were based in fact does not even come close to making the end story anything near factual. So it really in the end does not matter if the intent was good or the 1st variation was true. Someone sees a bird then makes it into a dragon, but hey the bird was real! see what I mean.

I am not sure if there is truly a difference in a werewolf and lycan other than the word chosen. However, I also don't believe that there are those that transform shape from human to wolf. I believe in modern times this is more of a mental states. Although, I guess I should not completely rule out the possibility of certain individuals having the ability to shape shift. There must be some basis to all the Native American legends that have been passed down through the generations.

I don't think anybody can physically change into a wolf, but I do think your spirit and leave your body and travel in the form of a wolf, or any other creature for that matter.

I dont believe that a person takes on the physical attributes of a wolf. I believe that it is a spiritual thing. The inner animal in ones soul so to say. Some may have it and some may not. I do think I recall Lycrothampy is one of the diseases along with canislupis. :)

To AntiEveryone in particular
I never said I agreed with the idea that someone could shift into a wolf- I merely explained what I BELIEVED the difference between Lycans and Werewolves were.. so I believe you need to calm down

Where could such a myth have come from though? I mean- it just doesn't make any sense. Not only does the whole thought of someone shifting sound absurd- but on top of that- if every rumor or idea starts from something- what could have started THAT?

i have to agree with antieveryone and i think he said it best in his first post of this thread. i think it is very comical aswell, i do believe that it may have been possible of undead vampires. but werewolves and lycans are completely a ridiculous idea.and anyways where did the myth of werewolves evolve from to begin with? does anyone have any sources of information on them?

I'd imagine the idea would derive from the idea of evolution. Only- the evolutionary step would basically be a controlled thing

You know, what Sevenn said must have totally been overlooked. I agree with what she said. It is okay for someone to have an opinion and for people to not see eye to eye, but there is no reason for anyone to say that someones opinion is ridiculous. The lovely joy of having the forums is we can state our opinions and not have them bantered or bashed.

I completely agree that the thread is here for a discussion. I do not believe that people can change into wolves, but i am willing to hear why others believe werewolves and lycans exist. Perhaps it is more fokelore or spiritual than it is physical- I do not know.

xxFallenLupaxx,

I think that you have made an important dictinction between the faith-oriented traditions of animalism and delusional psychosis.

In fact, it is for me, more appropriate that you use the term 'lycan' to identify the mental state over the 'were' of transformation, perhaps not of physical, but certainly spiritual, in case of the tribal totems.

Well done for sticking the idea out here in the face of such criticism.

Thank you- much. I feel that a lot of people reading the threading did not understand the true question being asked- nor understand that I did not attempt to confirm nor deny the exsist of werewolves.

does anyone have any links that would be helpful in learning about werewolves and lycans? i would love to read them and see where the myths and stories are derived from

At which point did you personally say "i believe there are people who can physically turn into wolves"? because I certainly did not see you say that. I indeed was criticizing people who claim that this is possible. So, that doesn't include you does it?

I simply point out that it is a very unstable claim, everyone who jumped on me for that needs to think twice and read things more carefully, Stabb.

Ah ok, i did see where you said that, but only JUST now, so as you see I was speaking in general. And now I ask that you supply the reasons why you believe what you do, that a person is able to turn into a wolf. Or when you said a werewolf is someone who changes shape did you mean in fantasy?

AntiEveryone,

Instead of instigating a 'she said, he said' playground game, why not pay attention to the topic and discussion being attempted.

Thank you.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong.
I meant that those are the differences I feel there are between the word werewolf and lycan. I do not personally believe that there are people out there who can turn into wolves.

woah you two - play nicely. if you cannot tolerate people who claim to be real vampires , werewolves, or whatever - stick to playing on Ravenblack, coz at least half the people on this site are serious about their beliefs and dont come here to be flamed. if you dont like people getting personal - don't get personal with them. it's common sense if you think about it.

How easily misconstrued things can be. I did not in any way turn anything into a he said she said, I merely meant to understand what she was saying, and my thoughts on what she said were correct, as she just confirmed. That is what I figured she meant. It all started with me saying it is a silly notion that people REALLY turn into wolves. Is there a problem with this? if so all I can do is say that it is my opinion, move on. No need to attempt to try to get on my case for wanting to see evidence from those who bare the burden of proof.


The inference was clear.

Can we talk about the topic now?

Please?

Thanks awfully.

STABB

OKAY SO TO GET BACK ON TOPIC!

I found this link and I thought it a bit interesting.....

http://www.mythicalrealm.com/legends/werewolf.html

Many people here have beliefs that they are SPIRITUALY wolves. I did not even address that, ive not seen anyone here who claims THEY can turn into a wolf. Apparently my definition of flaming is far different than others definitions. Just because you may disagree does not make what I say flaming. And just because someone claims to be an elephant does not mean I have to believe it. Some people require more than here say.

And that is on topic by the way because I want to know who has beliefs of wolf spirituality :)

i my self never completely doubt anything i just ask for a slight bit of evidence of those who claim such, and you know what noone has ever given me any kind of proof. when i ask them to show me they all back out.

i dont understand what is meant by a mental state of lycanism? first i would think why would some one wish to degenerate their thougts and intelligence to that of a wolf? as humans we are smarter and understand more than a wolf or any other animal

Well there are a few legends Raziel that I know of... a woman named Nell? being raised by wild animals.... and then theres Romulus and Remus too. Perhaps thats how all of this got started
Here's a link to the legend
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

I completely understand where you are coming from on the 1st half.

But perhaps it is about connecting with the animal ism every creature shares.

We too are animals, intellectual superiority may even make us more animistic in some cases.

Well Lycanthrophy is the name of a mental illness where people believe they are wolves. The word Lycan has been modernized and made to seem- well- not that harsh
Its not like anyone you know, wants a mental illness, they just can't help it.

But don't you think it possible someone could have been a wolf in a past life, and there soul still has memories of it?

This of course requires belief in reincarnation, but I suppose that is not entirely out of the question if that is what you believe.

I like Raziel have to agree with everything anti has expressed......i have yet to have seen any human turn into a werewolf.....to me proove you can do it let me see it then i will believe

The question is not whether one believes if someone can turn into a wolf, the question is What in your opinion is the difference between werewolves and lycans.

Talking about the two naturally leads to the question, "do you believe they exist in reality?"

No one has to engage in that with me, but if they so choose, so be it.

alternatively, the body of the "werewolf" could become temporary host to the spirit of a wolf. shamans of many cultures would deliberately allow this to happen to them - or if you wish to be more pragmatic, they submerge their consciousness into what they perceive as the wolf spirit.

Which comes down to- how to they know its real? Thats the problem I find with my meditation and such- how can you be certain what you're seeing and/or feeling is truly real?

That's the paradox, you can't. Sometimes faith is the last thread, the last thing it comes down to. Are you willing to believe without direct, or perhaps any proof? or are you not.

well i believe we can all feel we are something.....I am psi vamp and i know many others who are......so yes i believe in vampires ....werewolves lycanthropy i believe they are the same.....the ability to "change" from human to werewolf.....i do belive that that exists as a state of mind but not in the physical form

As ive said, definitions are changed all the time. So how can we really take anything seriously. So really you can be a vampire or a werewolf...according to what YOU think they are. Ones personal view and interpretation though, is not the common definition often times. So it makes you wonder if it is ok to start changing things that way, if it even makes sense. People tend to latch onto something say werewolf, then they realise there are SOME similarities so they hijack the word and wish for people to go right along with what they think it is. This confuses and to me makes little sense.

well...see thats the thing, I disagree that lycanthrophy is the same thing as being a werewolf. Because lycans doing claim they can shapeshift. Thats only in the movies that lycans claim the ability to shift

why obsess on the need for proof to believe something. it's a waste of faith believing in something you can prove is real. if something is real, it makes no difference if you believe in it or not. your dinner wont go crashing to the floor if you stop believing in tables. belief and faith should be concentrated onto things that dont exist - or at least have no proof of existence - thats where faith is needed.

Well I think you are right there, BUT the popularised term "lycan" was probably adapted from werewolf(the root)

see this is like how some people who claim to be vampires spell it differently, ok that accounts for the name change, also people who say they are vampires do not exhibit certain classic vampire traits (immortality, death by sun, etc) see what I mean? It is a way people can have their own realistic variation of werewolf.

yeah becki for starting this! lol personally i dont think people can turn into wolves...i believe that they could have been a wolf once in a past life...but i agree with everything else tho

I don't even know what I'd label myself- thats where the confusion comes in. It's because there is just so much controversy over the word "lycan" and what people see when someone types or says that word that creates the problem.

I believe I not only display but feel as well as supress memories from a past life where I indeed was a wolf. If that sounds crazy- thats cool- but then I'm sure theres a lot in the population who can also be deemed as such

Not crazy, but perhaps you just need to not put yourself in any category if there is so much, as you said controversy. Though it is innately human to want to put a name to things. In fact I think it less crazy if you just explain to others what you just did here instead of calling it lycanism.

I just say wolfkin
It's easier
Thats the problem with all of this- everything to do with the occult and supernatural- and its also what makes it beautiful- the fact that it is so difficult to label and categorize

Well, you said past life yes? if so....then I assume you believe everyone has a past life. Now....what if your name was doug in a past life....you can embrace that, but are you to be called dougkin?. I know that sounds stupid but it really is no different. What we may have been in a past life, is not really what we are now. At a certain point are we not picking and choosing what we are now based on whether or not we like it?

I really don't know. Adding kin at the end of it because- have you even heard of "otherkin"? A phrase that stands for people who believe they are something other-than-human. So, the dougkin thing- although funny wouldn't really work in that case :-P I should've explained before hand about the otherkin before assuming you knew about such a thing

No I understand that. But it seems to me that this is about embracing a past life...in such a way that it becomes apart of the life you live now. Why is an animal any different than if you were a human? see this is where I feel it becomes very choosy.

Well I see what you're saying and I agree. I think though that- even if it was a past life as a human that was trying to come through that I WOULD embrace it if I could. I think that the reason many only try to opt for the kin is to say they were something other than human.

The whole point of trying to find our who you were in a past life I believe- is to find your roots- see who you were and how it shaped you.

Frankly, I know I've said that my beliefs are very widespread. Just because u haven't seen somthing doesn't mean it isn't real. I heard of a lot of ppl refering to this "transformation" in their culture as well in old folk tales and such. I don't think anyone can physically change into a were but that doesn't mean it is not possible.I think it is a state of mind and spirituality. I call myself a vampyre and I don't find it ridiculous because I may not look like this hollywood thing they display or sleep in a coffin or burn up in the sunlight but I am. I have the essence within me and I am an em-path. I think is very hurtful to be called ridiculous. Who standards is it to say it is? Who has the right to tell us that it is not possible? that's why I don't overlook anything or doubt it.

"I call myself a vampyre and I don't find it ridiculous because I may not look like this hollywood thing they display or sleep in a coffin or burn up in the sunlight but I am."

It isnt about not looking like a hollywood vampire, One shouldnt assume that is what I said. It is however about how people contort definitions and words for their own personal use. You are whatever you want to be, but it is because you so wish it. You cannot get upset with people for going by the definition. If I want to call myself a "Reptiel" then I guess I am, but I know damn well I cant call myself a "Reptile" same goes for "werewolves" and lets not turn this into a "just cause you cant see it doesnt mean it isnt real" because sadly, this is a world that runs on a principle, evidence and proof. Sorry if people dont like that BUT until proven, it is belief and faith.

Well thank you very much hun. You make a lot of a sense. I think thats the problem. Although everyone *or I'd like to think everyone* tries to be opened minded on this site- I think they lose track of these posts as being peoples opinions- and that people aren't stating these as facts. As well as getting lost amongst the media misconceptions. No matter how much we may try to deny it- we're all 'human' in our own ways and we tend to have difficulty accepting what we have not seen

People feel they have to be more than human. And I may add, just because you display lets say werewolf traits, does not give you (I speak in general here not to any one person)the ability to say thats what it is, simply because that is what the symptoms point to. It could be something else entirely, so people need to stop being so very "sure" reminds me of people who think they can diagnose their own illnesses when they are not doctors. Who is to say "I am X because I display Y and Z" this "method" is so flawed I can hardly maintain my composure.

Exactly, but at the same time.. no one can tell you what you feel nor who you are.

Of course not, but more often than not they can tell you WHY. We are psychologicaly and medicaly most often predictible (not always) to an extent that very little is left that is TRULY in the dark. That is very hard for people to accept. People need a little extra.

Eh but we can't put so much into other people telling us who we are or why we do the things we do. I think that thats one of our main problems in the modern world- the fact that no one wants to own up to their own problems- their own mess ups they'd rather shell out 2 grand for some overpaid *no offense to anyone who may read this who is or knows a shrink* guidance counsler to tell them that they are the cause of their own problems or the fact that they cannot admit to their own faults is the real problem

I enjoy all of the werewolf tales, but that's about as it far as it goes for me. I don't see how it is physically possible for someone to do that, therefore, I really can't believe that someone can physically turn from a human into a werewolf.

"the fact that no one wants to own up to their own problems"

you still do have to own up to things when you have an issue, there is no avoiding it. And I speak not of guidance counselors, but people who spend lifetimes figuring out why we do what we do, and they do exist. There are people who unravel enigmas. And 99.9% of human behavior has been accounted for....that is amazing. So few things are mysterious now, its no fun but it is true.

one thing science has taught us (well, those of us that have learned) is that anything the human mind can imagine - and a whole lot it can't imagine - is in some way possible.

Lol I still think theres plenty.

Well.......is that like, people can fly.....in a plane. Or we can breathe under water.....with an airtank. lol idk

Werewolves.... I am not sure I believe that someone changes into a wolf at the sign of the full moon, but I do believe that a persons spirit can become the form of one. This I have experienced.

I was visited by someones spirit who was in the form of something canine, it was not a plesant experience and one that I hope never happens again.

Lycans to me are more believable, but just because I believe in something does not make it true and sadly I have no "proof" to make it so

See thats why I think the word Lycan is much more agreeable amongst people- because- really- unless you've seen Underworld too many times- you tend to find the word Lycan as less- well- offensive because its claims aren't so...'rare'

And speaking of Dogs..."Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog is very dark." :)

I personally aways thought the werewolf movies were (hehe) dumb. Never a fan. I do however find the thought of changing into an animal very interesting. Shape shifting does intrigue me.

Really?
Even the 'new age' ones?
I agree, a lot of them seem very under budget and just well- terrible story line and graphics

no new horror type movies are good, lol

as for werewolves i must admit as a child I loved them.

Lycanthropy in the current definition is defined as a werewolf. There are also were cats, foxes, bears, and deer. the word "lycan" was popularized by "Underworld" and is slang. I believe people who believe they are werewolves are as real as those who believe themselves vampyres. However neither are what the fictional portrayal of such creatures exibit. As with werewolves, there are world wide folklore tales of both critters. It is up to ones personal belief as to their spiritual transformations; less we become dogmatic and disallow freedom of expression. "Nothing is true; everything is permitted."

It really is- because people saw the creatures in Underworld and thought, "oh dear, I never knew they were called that, I always thought they were called werewolves"
It's such crap

In folklore, lycanthropy is the ability or power of a human being to undergo transformation into a wolf. The term comes from ancient Greek lykánthropos (λυκάνθρωπος): λύκος, lýkos ("wolf") + άνθρωπος, ánthrōpos ("man") (Rose, 230). The word can also be used transitively, referring to the act of transforming someone else into a wolf, or werewolf.

The word lycanthropy is often used generically for any transformation of a human into animal form, though the precise term for that is technically "therianthropy". Sometimes, "zoanthropy" is used instead of "therianthropy".

Folk-etymology also links the word to Lycaon, a king of Arcadia who, according to Ovid's Metamorphoses, was turned into a ravenous wolf in retribution for attempting to serve human flesh (his own son) to visiting Zeus in an attempt to disprove the god's divinity.

There is also a mental illness called lycanthropy in which a patient believes he or she is, or has transformed into, an animal and behaves accordingly. This is sometimes referred to as clinical lycanthropy to distinguish it from its use in legends.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycanthropy

well the right terminology that people use now is Therian....which is the mental status change from human thinking to animalistic thinking. It does happen and I know a few of them myself. When the animalistic instincts take over they usually crave the flesh of the object they are attacking...Now I am not sure about the rest I only know this much.

what aliravrykul just said was actually what i had just been thinking....i don't think people can physically change their form, but in their own mind i do believe someone may switch to animalistic traits, or tendencies

It is hard from me to speak of the unknown, because I know little about wearwolves, but i beleive it is unfair for the media and other forms of entertainment to make a mockery of what they do not know.

They do it with vampires and witches too though, but I see it as an increasing trend that vampires and witches seem to be getting the good end of the deal lately.
People coming forward claiming to be vampires and giving vampires sort of an, "neighbor", type persona.
As for witches, a lot has been done for them media wise to try and bring them into the positive light.
Wolves seem to be the only ones right now not able to break that mold.
I hoped with the release of Blood & Chocolate that this would all change, however, the director completely changed the story line from the original book by Annette Curtis Klause

Billy? what's the matter with you man? i thought for sure you'd close this as soon as you saw it. its not going anywhere, just a bickering match between those with open minds and those who think we now know everything that can be known about the universe. for Caine's sake close it.

Well the whole point of the thread was to find out if people saw a difference between lycans and werewolves, and if so, what those differences are- if any.

technically, the word lycanthrope literally means wolf-man, so i guess that says it all. whether a psychologist chooses it to mean a delusion, or a shape shifter chooses it to mean someone who turns into a wolf is besides the point. if you choose to define it as "someone who drinks chocolate milk shake" you are probably stretching it a bit - but hey, who am i to judge?

Lol thats a really good point.
Thats what I find so difficult about all of this- the fact that there is no clear-cut defination..

let me propose a story to illustrate this dilemna.
an old woman buys a few balls of wool, and decides to knit a jumper for a man, following the knitting pattern in her copy of woman's Realm as closely as she can. eventually it is finished, and lo, there is a knock at the door. she opens it to find a poor migrant woker shivering in the cold - so she gives him the jumper.

but he is a very stout, tall man, and it does not fit - he can't get it over his head even.

from this, do we deduce that he is not a man? or do we deduce that the old lady did not knit a jumper after all.? or do we deduce that the knitting pattern was wrong, or that she misread it?

no - it is simply that men come in different shapes and sizes, and woolen jumpers are not "one size fits all".
with mythology and cryptozoology, we take a myth or legend, and try to fit it to a person or event - why should we not be surprised if it is not a perfect fit?

thats a really good point

ok i'm not even going to read the flame wars, i'm just going to adress the thread topic.
As to the myhtological transformation concept, I feel it has to do more with what those who are afflicted have claimed, more than what has been witnessed by others, feinitely making it more a spiritual thinkg and less a physical one.
shamanic journeying traditions allow one to shape their astral form as they will, wil much training practice and work, but some people find the task very easy, and if that person were ta have a moment of out of body experience, it's entirely possible the astral form they innately choose might not be that of a person, rare, but within reason if the possibility of an astral form does in fact exist.
Just as the classic myth of witches flying, can also be attributed to astral projections and out of body experiences, the concept is the same, just with some people who are more animal in nature theri form might be more like the animal they identify with

'nuf said ~ Billy

I do love to end threads with a story or two. ;)