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So does this mean I am unable to understand?

I am an intelligent, worldly wise individual, I am open of mind, and have a wide range of magical knowledge, although I do not choose to practice that knowledge.

I have no desire to become a vampire (although I will admit the idea of being a Psy Vamp able to boost my own energy by taking others interests me, but only in a technical sense).

I am on here to learn, but it concerns me there is a closed minded attitude, "If you are not one of us, you can not understand us"

Is that really the case?

Discuss.

I think you can understand people who are diffrent to a point, but i think you have to be part of that group to understand them fully...

Granted it may be impossible to explain to someone the freedom and joy of belief and faith, but is it not possible to explain the concepts of that belief?

I feel it is an elitists exclusive attitude to somehow state "you are not one of us and therefor are unable to understand"

There may be "fine details" which may be lost on me, the sensations for instance, or individual specific feelings, but assuming you are proficient with the English language, cultural differences asside, why can I not understand? Or is that just it, I already do not understand how much I do not understand, and do not realise the depth of the lack of my understanding?

Are Vampires SO beyond "mere mortal ken"?

I have to disagree, to those who become masters of energy manipulation, vamparism is just one small aspect of that.

Some of the greatest healers will tell you that to heal people sometimes you have to take more than you give. Othertimes you must give more, and still there are times when you must stay neutral.

The idea that you have to be one to understand comes from a very limited imagination, and ability. To master any craft what happens is that everything around that person becomes part of the learning. Not just one thing or another. From there with full understanding and not just comprehension does a person choose what they will do.

Does this mean that I think there is not deficiency with vamps, no. It means that I think their abilities and actions are limited by what they know and where they are in their learning of themselves.

I am positive you could understand, as do most people. For me, it is more of a lack in the needing to know department. Like you said, you do not want to become a vampire. I do not wish to speak of some things, because I do not want to sway someone that shouldn't or doesn't want to be in this lifestyle. Make sense?

LuiciferRising... now that I can understand :-)

Leibe, Interesting, I am familiar with a range of techniques of energy manipulation, but a lack of desire to practice, and a lack of talent I must admit hampers my own practicing of such. But does that mean I am unable to understand? Not sure myself there, a lack of "understanding" could be linked to and be the cause of my lack of talent!

Well then that would put you in the realm of comprehension. And the post below mine covered it quite nicely.

So aspects would be hindered, but only because of your intent. Just like I refuse to learn how to change the oil in my car. I would rather pay someone else to do it :)

Any group has barriers to entry, for a number of reasons

1. Protection and defence
2. In order to define themselves
3. Establishment of reputation and centre for knowledge or skills

and so on

In my interest, I used to love sharing my work but found certain others would appropriate it for their own ends. All things being equal that's fine but how can I develop my own identity and reputation?

I've not seen an attitude of "if you're not one of us, you can't understand us".

Because the vampirism I deal with is seperate from the mythological and fictional, it's easier to explain: My body doesn't create enough energy on it's own so I'm able to gather it externally.

I see absolutely no reason why anyone cannot understand this, if they choose to put in the effort.

I am with you. I am not a vampire, I am not gothic or even religous. I am here to learn and understand and to make friends

I believe any intelligent person can be made to understand if given the information by someone who actually wants to be understood. In my opinion there has to the desire for it, on the part of both parties before the understanding will happen. There are always going to be some people who for reasons of a perceived need for safety or a feeling of superiority will say that no one else can understand them. I am not accusing anyone here of trying to appear superior to anyone else but it does lend itself to the possibility.
But the desire to understand has to be mutual or it cannot happen to my mind.

Understanding does not mean I will know the feelings or the satisfaction gained but I do believe it can be compared to something most anyone can feel in order to give understanding. So I do not believe that only a vampire can understand but anyone who truly desires to understand and can find one willing to teach them.

They are just shelds and walls that have been built up by the enterance of others whom did not seek to understand but to poke fun and be silly there for as you have pointed out you feel like you are being punished for others sins.. I understand its just a matter of time and you will grow deeper into the group and too be accepted as family if that is what you wish.

Have you encountered much in the way of reluctance to help you understand vampirism then? It seems to me that those present on this site are more than willing to discuss and explain things to one another. If you have a genuine wish to understand and learn, then I am certain that thirst for knowledge will be answered in kind.

I think that you would be able to understand us if you got to know us.
some of my friends are really into christianity, but they completely understand me and what I do.

You can learn and understand a subject and not necessarily believe in them, you don't have to have a faith to talk about it or even to teach it. Scientists can teach and converse about religion the same way a religious man can talk about science. I'm sure there a more than a few people on the site who believe themselves NOT to be vampires but could possibly know more than those who say that they do.
Obviously there is the learning by going through it and learning by making mistakes. But to say that people cannot understand something other than themselves i think is kind of weird.

Very well put Ishta, although I would add arrogant.

There seems to be a line that people want to think that they have all the answers, when a person who has mastered any form of learning will tell you that there is always more to learn. Sometimes even from students.

Learning seems to be one thing that most people can do, to one level or another.

Just because you are not a vampire does not mean that you are un intelligent.

Im not a vampire, & I dont pretend to know everything, my knowledge of such is getting much better & I've learned alot in the past year, I'd say I understand most concepts...

The lips of wisdom are sealed until the ears of understanding are ready to listen.

That saying is wonderful HellaciousRose, I'm glad you put it here :)

you ever get a woman say to you "you aren't a woman, so you can't understand what it's like"? pretty much the same thing. you can't win, no amount of listening and nodding will make any kind of impression - live with it.

I thought it was quite fitting Liebe :P

& Karn, I disagree, I think that's totally different...There are both male AND female vampires...It's nothing to do with gender...

Karnstein, I guess your married then? :-)

Men and women ARE different, but there CAN be an understanding of sorts at a certain level, but an intreaging line of thought....

Men and Women are different, are you saying that Vampires are BIOLOGICALLY different to humanity?

Equivillent to a different sex if you will...

it is wonderful that you are trying to learn about us. we need more ppl in this world who are as accepting as you are

im am not vampiric, never claimed to be. yet i have not faced any type of "snubbing" or "shutting out". the ppl that i've meet on vr have been wonderfull and helpfull at all times. mabye you just ran across the wrong person. you do not have to be the same as another to have understanding of them or thier ways. it would be hard to empathize with them, but not to sympathize wghith them. the ones that do say that may just dont want to explain so they will continue to "stand out". some may feel that if you dont understand them and they dont explain they can continue to be "the odd one" and not have to conform to any type of structure.

It can be dificult to reveal yourself to someone not of your own nature for fear of rejection and plain out being called crazy.

I think everyone can understand if they try. I believe that trying to be exclusive is rediculous..we all live on this planet together, and should be able to co-exist and learn about each other. I dont understand why it is that just because you are not part of a group that you cannot understand said group, according to some. To me, if someone asks about what I am, I will try to explain to the best of my ability, not act as if its rude to ask.

Thats a good point Cerberos, i think maybe people can understand but only to a certain extent, its like having to deal with racism or sexism and homophobia, you can't really fully understand what its like, you can read up on it and research to your hearts content. But you will never feel what its actually like, to be shunned and misunderstood the hurt and pain, i think thats a part of being as well, you have to deal with misconceptions and hatred, scholars won't have to put up with that, not to a greater extent! You can sympathise but its not the same!

to me the fact of you wanting to learn is enough,too many people will not take time time or just give you "you wouldnt understand" only a closed mind acts in this fashion*looks around* this site is a place TO come and learn,it matters not if your not vampiric and as such we should be a little more understanding for those who want to know

some things will probably be hard for you to understand, but not necessarily everything will baffle you! :) I'm sure there could be thnigs that you would have to experience firsthand, but then again, there are things that will make 100% sense to you without you having to be a vampire! :)

In my experience, those who would have the mindset you're speaking of have far more to hide than comprehension of their vampirism.

It appears to me as a safety net to divert questions that could root out their own lack of understanding on the subject.

Thats true moridin, It could be a safety net, because they can't answer the questions you are asking, because they don't know as much as they say they do, its an easy brush off and still being able to keep their dignity intact.

Im not religious nor am i a vampire, I've read a hell of a lot of books about vampire werewolves, witchcraft, wiccan spiritualism, vampirirsm etc etc...i find it all very facsinating...i love everything!

true ishta it could be a way for them to save face, but that reason would be for the young or the wana-be's.

You understand as far as your knowledge will allow you. And yes, to your credit, that may bring you open minded understanding Druidic. However, there is a limit to what one can comprehend without being a vampire.

Those who are not vampires carry an inherent disbelief in vampires, seen mostly in the skepticism of those who claim they are.

if you understand a persons right to be who they want to be then you can understand it

I think it depends on how much a person wants to understand, some people can be set in there ways and not accept any other lifestyle than the one they've always had.

I don't think age is a factor Cerberos, adults can be just as mind bending irritating and irrational as kids.

point there ishta. but in the older poeple it more of a close mind then trying to save face. on in the elder group it could be impaitance with those that want to learn. they may simply not think it worth thier time to try and get someone to understand

Well when you get lashed with the line, you wouldn't understands its pretty much either:

They don't know how to answer your question
They don't really care about your nonsensical question
They're up themselves
They don't like you
Or you're a complete n00b

To take the time to answer questions and talk about something can be beneficial to both sides, allowing and helping someone to understand and better accept yourself and who you are. There is no greater gift than intelligence, its pretty much the only thing you'll be taking with you when you die.

For me, it can some times be the repatition of certain questions. From what I have noticed here, I could see how some of the more seasoned member could be agrivated about answering the same questions. The forum sections don't have an easy way to select different pages, there are no "sticky" threads with that information, and members articles are dealing with the same task of loading a small list, with no page or topic choice.

that is so true. the best conversations happen between two open minded poeple. that are willing to see the other's side

i appreciate your will to learn. even though i'm lycan and not a vampire, i'm here to learn about it too. just the idea that you are willing to learn, specifies that you have an open mind yourself. so you should be able to get the information you need. if someone tells you that you're not "one of them" so you "can't understand" then they're lazy, and don't feel like explaining. everyone is capable of understanding a concept, even if it's a simple one.

I believe that as long as you have an open mind- that you may learn about something. Although, I firmly believe that you cannot fully understand something until you experience it first hand. It is noble however, that instead of judging, you are educating yourself

Well, here we really have an interesting topic.

I also had the experience of elitist groups using the same slogan: "If your not a/n ..., you can't understand."
Sorry, but this is just stupid, arrogant ****.

The will to learn alone would already justify any alloweance to get insight. Every knowledge needs someone keeping and spreading it.
The willing are the best you can get as progeny for such. Its like in school...if you are interested the teacher just teach you better and are willing to even use sparetime to teach you even more. Both profit of such in the end.
The teaching one by getting progenys and allies, the learning ones by getting knowledge and insights.

Oh, and don't forget another important thing: If you really want to know ALL about it, you will embrace the topic as much as you can.
To take karnsteins example: If I really wanted to know how a woman feels etc., I'd be even be so extrem to become one.
But you already see this in less extreme topics clearly and may just got the concept.

Be interested in the occult and übernormal, the dark and/or other side and you will sooner or later either loose interest...

or you will be the one 'they' claim you have to be automaticly.

So many people have made some very wonderful and valid points. It all boils down to nature and attitude. You will be those that will put you in the 'others' basket and not give you the chance to learn understand or grow. And then you will get wonderful people who will help you to understand. If your open minded and willing to try to learn and understand, that puts you above the closed minded set that wish to put others out because they aren't one of them.

I can totally identify with the misunderstands that my result from the non vampires on this site. I speak for myself and I feel many others who are open to your situatrion. I am a vampire and a Wiccan so walking a fine line is a very real part of my existanence.
Blessed Be and may you prosper here!!

I haven't seen that here... I've met a lot of people who were not vampires and were just fans.... or just wanted to hang out because they liked the feel of the site... It took a couple of months before anyone even asked what kind of vampire I even was... or if I was a vampire... I am just so sorry you had that happen... or that you feel that has happened... Just know there are so many people who are not vampires on this site and I and many others like me welcome you and them....

I haven't seen that attitude here either, but I know that sometimes this is a path you have to start walking alone... in my case, after having read and embraced this new life, I will be ready to know more... and then, I will ask the necessary questions... **just my case, please***. I think that's why you look for a Coven or a House when you have reached certain level of knowledge... because from that point on, you need guidance... am I right? *** shrugs ***

übernormal, a perfect description.

It is "super" normal, not supernatural. This is part of why I think most can empathize with understanding at least to a small extent.

umm maybe its because there are NO vampires
and if someone claims that he is a vampire
then he is just a stupid little immature ignorant attention seeking kid.
You can love blood,ok
but this DOES NOT make you a vampire,imbecile

and I am talking about both girls and boys -.-

Just cus your not one dose not mean you can't understand. if you have an open mind and a willingness t learn than it is possable.

I believe that you can be open minded to an extent. You can understand something that is different that yourself only to an extent as well. To truely and fully understand something different you have to be a part of the whole.

Yeah if youll be open enough you will understand retardes.
They exist.

If ill be stupid enough Ill believe in something that is not there.

You might be a blood drinker
You might love night
You might..IDK..whatever
BUT DONT CALL YOURSELF A FREAKING VAMPIRE imbeciles -.-

methinks the lady dost protest too much - SHE'S A VAMPIRE!! domanique is a secret vampire, a true vampire would clearly deny the existence of vampires , sooooo....

XDominique perhaps you are not familiar with the rules of the forum, flaming other members is not allowed. It can end up with you having your posting rights suspended. I suggest you stop.

Yes you could have a sort of academic understanding but to truly understand how someone is feeling, the thirst they speak of and other personal issues is hard.

Example

One can explain to a man what labor is like but you only know intellectually. There is no way to explain the actual feeling of labor and delivery of a child to a man other than the technical mechanics of it.

How would an animal for instance a dog if they could talk explain to you what it feels like to be a dog. You know what they do and many things are instinctual but it still is on an intellectual level and not a physical level of understanding. Unless you can step into someone else's shoes I don't believe one can truly understand.

I am not a vampire either.

Though I do wish...

But all in all, i hope that I have somewhat of an understanding on the subject anyways.

If someone is going to flame others for saying their vampires & call them names such as imbecile for their beliefs, I dont think this is the right place for them to be ;)

I don't think you're the only one on the site who believes that dominque, and are aggitated by what people say they are. But the difference is, they keep that to themselves, they notice where they are, and that they don't have all the answers to everything and that they cannot say without reasonable doubt that they are not who they say they are. They appreciate people in different forms and beliefs.
There is no difference between flaming someone because of who they say they are or flaming someone because of their beliefs, its just not acceptable. In this day and age i think at least some respect is due and if not respect then a little patience and (the word of the day)"UNDERSTANDING"

of cours you can learn but it is easery to know what we are and like if you feel that you somathing beside the nomal pepol of the socity. i myself is not a vampire but a delphermer. half humen- half vamp

Nope, from what I understand, this is a place to learn.Closed minds breed ignorance and so is the case for those who choose to shun those not like them.One cannot learn if one does not wonder and ask question.To cease to learn is to grow old and die
As in any forum or group there are those who consider themselves better or stronger or whatever.It is merely their own insecurities showing.
I would hope you never stop asking questions or seeking new things in life.
If I can be of any help to you, please let me know.

Tolerance is paramount is this situation. It is a wonderful thing that you are curious and willing to learn something new. As long as you approach the learning process with and open mind the same consideration should be afforded to you as well. Personally I enjoy when people are curious about my interests. You should never be condecended to.

Oo
I am saying what I am thinking.
I am not flaming anyone,I just think that this is pathetic.
My opinion,others can say the same about me.
[because I am the realistic bitch!]

Calling people imbeciles = flaming

Saying someones beliefs are pathetic = flaming

Be careful what you say here please.....

I think you can definatly understand something without being whatever you're trying to comprehend. However, it would most certainly help to be what you're trying to understand because you'd be going through what they go through and you'd be living it... It'd be kinda hard not to understand it then... right?

people don't know shit. just go by what you believe, if you think you know about vamps then right on :)

I uderstand your veiws however I think that it is best to keep open minds. There are many different kinds of people. If you understood what a lot of us have to put up with in the world than you would know why most of us keep to ourself and talk only to others in the same state of mind. With these kinds of religions you have to understand that somethings are better kept in a small circle. There are some good books out there for learning about our kind however if you want more then I'm sure that someone here maybe able to answer your questions. Don't be hurt if someone won't though because like I said some things are better kept between the same kind. I hope you find what your looking for.

ive never noticed anyone on here being "racist"if you will. i am not a vampire eather i am much more of a wolf although i do like blood that is such a small part of what empowers me.i think people take a word and make it what it is to them.if you lable yourself it should be a broad deffinition of who or what you are simply because if i asked 20 random people on hear the same question id get atleast 10 different answers because our language and perception of what a word means is broad.but our actions and actual lifestyle makes us what we are.i guess what im saying is to truely understand you have to walk in another persons footsteps.stepping outside your normal boundries and looking into the unknow is truely empowering.

And he is my pirate! Yes, listen to him. We are coming out, and we are here to inform you on what is fair and just. :) Just ask any of us, and you will get a good answer. :)

you dont have to be a vampire to enjoy the life style. don't let petty people's bs get at you enjoy this site.

i have practiced wicca for years and i had someone to teach me the right way to work things. i don't belive a person should try majick unless you know what your doing. bad things can happen, even if you think you know a spell or circle casting.

A lot of very interesting points.

In short you can't completely understand what it is to be a vampire as they are sifficiently different to the "normal" human as a man is to a woman.

I argue against that with this. We are all different from each other, Human language developed from a method of one monkey telling another monkey "there is good food in that tree" which makes verbalising complex emotiona little tricky.

BUT men can understand each other, can understand women, can even understand animals, in a limited way, time, patience, study and if possible a good teacher make the difference.

And as for the not believing in vampires cause they don't exists..... I believe in many things my eyes have not seen, and I have seen with my own eyes many things you would not believe existed.

Lets leave it at that shall we, I would hate for this interesting thread to get locked.

i think vampires are just there to try to scare people on moves or maybe sites

Yes and no. You can learn all you want about it. You can live among it and see everything there is to see dealing with it. You can understand it to an extent. But unless you really are one, you won't be able to truly understand because you don't know how it FEELS.

I do not think you have to be a vampire to understand this concept. I do hear from most 'vampires' that this is not true... however I feel I have learned more about some of them than they even realize about themselves.

This is not a 'slam' to the vampalicios peeps out there~ just what I have experienced.

I believe as a scientist that any subject can be studied and understood. However what is studied can easily become sterile and unemotional if the investigator keeps too much distance. Many of the greatest scientist performed experiments that placed them into the experiment to fully examine it. Studying vampires as an outsider will leave holes in the investigator's knowledge base. Studying vampires as an insider will also leave holes. To gain a complete understanding both methods will have to be used and the rsults correlated to prevent biases from developing of either type.

I am not a "Vampire" in the blood drinking sense! I don't feel that I have to be one of anything in order to understand. I have Vampiric traits like the dislike of sunlight. I like to lurk. I watch, and I listen. I like to be mysterious. These are simple little things. I wouldn't be concerned if I were you. You sound fine to me!

I am not a vampire either but that does not mean that I dont understand and they dont facinate me... And I probably be one if it meant I would also magically lose all nmy weight... My version of a sexual vampire is something I wouldn't mind being either

I don't think that only Vampyres understand what they are; there is a difference between unserstanding and acceptance.There will be those who cannot accept the deviant behavior, but may understand what the addiction is about.
Being a Vampyre is like being a human, but of a deviant species.

What other humans are predators, and see others as vessals containing the energy/prana/blood they so need to fill their addiction?
Of course Vampyres interact with all humans, and try to contribute their part in the daily drama of life. They love and live their lives on the "dayside", just like everyone else. Things change though, the "nightside" is another matter.
Unserstand maybe, accept maybe not.

More than half the people here aren't..vampires...Hey I used to be a dragon....now I'm just a bunch of floating skulls...but really...this may be Vampire Rave...but we're all kindred.

Having the desire to learn has already put you head and shoulders above the closed-minded, the ones who would otherwise turn you away from expanding your knowledge base. The need to understand is strong with you, little one. (lol)

Take that. Take it and run with it. That's all you have to do. If you're truly as interested in learning as you say you are, then a few doors closed in your face shouldn't stop you from doing just that.

Yeah, it's one thing to get information first-hand from someone who lives (whether they DO or not is irrelevant) a certain lifestyle, but ACTIVELY searching for information, pouring your heart and soul into that search, that can be just as...if not more...productive. You have put a piece of yourself into the search, and it has become something personal. You can't get that from the lips of another, not in simple information sharing.

Hey, man. Do what you do. If you want to understand, you will. It just be's that way. ;oP

Unfortunately there can be a lot of elitism in a site like this, as people have wildly varying beliefs, and often get more than they bargained for by speaking them.

Just stay true to your own opinions, and don't be swayed by people who are too insecure to understand you, rather than you worrying so much about understanding them. You sounds like an open-minded person, adn I think thats all that really matters.

I am not a vampire either.. but there is a certain aspect to them that fascinates me and draws me.

Are Vampires real? I believe people believe they are.. but beyond vampirism being needing to consume something to continue to live... well then hell - we're all vampries!

It is the romanticism of the consumation that I believe draws people to vampirism.

But what can I say? I've been called a psy vampire once and I deffinatly do feel charged when around others.

Can I understand? Well, that involves a closeness.

On the man vs. woman line..

I get grumpy at times while hormonal. My lover understands this and does what he can to try to help me. He may not feel what I feel, but he understands what is happening and is there for me.

He may never feel the pain.. or joy of birth, but he will be right there next to me in the delivery room... and he will feel the joy of seeing our baby be born. There is a connection between us.

I may not be that close to a vampire, but I can deffinatly feel that you do not have to be one to understand what is going on.. if there is a connection between you.

I agree that yes there are some people on here who are like that but not all of us.... We accept people for who they are individually, Ok yeah I'm a mosquito on here right now but that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. I have had an account on here before and I know that before on my old account that there were people who were very opened minded and did just want to learn and make friends. So I personally think that we aren't all closed minded and are actually open minded.

Druidic

I find that vampires or the vampiristic lifestyle to be open to others to a point. But - for example- if you were to join a swim club and could not swim my bet would be you would not be spending a whole lot of quality time chatting about the water temp, you know?

Does it really matter if your are or aren't? Most people who are deep in the believes of this. Acturally think they are a vampire. But people who just think is "cool" could careless and it and about you.

I am not a vampire but it does not mean that vampires do not exist because they do and I for one believe that they do

Although that theory may be true, Jenova, I find that it is a hidden nature of all intelligent beings to establish preference in spite of a population.

And in that establishment, walls will always divide one being from another.

Not because they can't compare, but they prefer not to.

Deep behind every tolerant soothsayer, is a fanatic that refuses to budge.

Deep behind every co-existance, is a dark suspician. Perhaps supressed, but existant.

Intelligence,... Understanding,... Empathy,... Instinct,... and the Psychic link. It is these things that enable us to grasp comprehension of anothers well-being. And these tools navigate us in relation to those we encounter on our wandering.

However, we do not live our lives as the host of someone else. Therefore, there will be walls, and there will be judgement, despite all of our greatest intentions.

...

I don't desire to be given that praise Jenova.

I was merely trying to project that most of it had less to do with 'ability' and more to do with 'politics'.

Even I willingly convince myself in optimistic sentiment that two individuals of opposing natures can grasp deepest understandings, but I know that is wishful thinking. It is simply unrealistic when you are aware of human nature.

...

I do not find the attempt of understanding to be completely in vain, however.

i think it is just ppl being nieve when they say ur not one of us u cant understand. Yes we phsyically dont but if ppl have an open mind and ppl let them in then understanding will come.

Anyone can understand and learn if they are willing to. Some people are going to try and keep themselves secluded from those that aren't simply from the fact that they more than likely have been tormented about it and sense that those that aren't essentially aren't worth it. I think if you didn't want to learn you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't have posted this. So I say anyone can learn they just can't be closed minded about things they may never understand that we ourselves can.

VampiresxPrey, I would agree on most of what you said, indeed those who are not vampires, are most time more then often being segregate by those who are, sadly.
I will tho say this I dotn juge a person on what or who they are but on their actions so to me to help someone understadn what a vampire is would be a priviledge, if a person is open minded enought ot wanna learn form others then why would I deprive them of learning?
Otherwise we will never go further. Its liek in my training years as a sword master, as girl I was told it was nto my place or I would never do it, since their is no such thing as a sword Mistress only sword master. I still made it and succeed it, and being a vampire help me alot. So if you wanna learn about something without being that "thing" (no offence please here) then the best way is to get in contact and close contact from those who are that thing (again please no offence)

This thread has been automatically closed for length.