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Wolfsbohne
Wolfsbohne

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02:05:17 Oct 06 2007
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This will be my second attempt at starting a thread. My first was squashed because the topic seemed to already be running, but I firmly believe this deserves it's own thread. I originally posted this in my Coven forum but thought it would be good to get outside attention.

I'm currently composing a theory regarding basic human biology (bio chemistry) and how it is effected by Astrology. My opinion has already been formulated, but in order to nurture my theory I would like to see alternate opinions.

Now for the question. Do you believe in fate, free will, or both? Why? I'm forming this theory based on empirical evidence, so extra credit for anyone who can support their opinion with generally accepted truths or facts :) The keys to this topic are Astrology, Fate, and Free Will.




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Pantervamp
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02:33:16 Oct 06 2007
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I belive in the free will. I am my own and noone have right to control my fate. What i do and my decisions is based on my own experience. I dont belive in any god that take care of us, i belive it is up to eash human to do what he/her find good.



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IFLY
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02:34:38 Oct 06 2007
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I believe in both. I believe that our final " destination " is predetermined by the fates, but our free will determines how many lifetimes it will take to get to that destination. The everyday choices we make ultimately move our path in one direction or another. These choices ( or tests if you will ) must coincide with our fate if our soul is to be able to move on.



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vulcuran2
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02:43:00 Oct 06 2007
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like it says in my profile I am the master of my own destiny no one controls my fate but me so I believe in free will



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VoodooDolly
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02:46:42 Oct 06 2007
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I do believe in both....I think that some things are definitely predestined, but in order to obtain them, we have to help it along a bit.



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KCRC
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03:01:15 Oct 06 2007
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I also believe in both "fate" and free will.

I believe that (God, "The All", Allah, whatever you want to call a supreme being) KNOWS us so well that they know what our actions, responses etc. will be. Thus, they also know what our ultimate fate will be.

However, we are free to make whatever choices we desire. We have the free will to choose whatever path we wish. It's just that the choice we make is already known.

Does that make ANY sense?



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WindStormy
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03:01:33 Oct 06 2007
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I am totally lost in this discussion.

How can predestination take place in our lives if there isn't some outside force creating the atmosphere for each incident? Or guiding us toward said predestination?



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Obscurity
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03:04:34 Oct 06 2007
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I believe fate, free will and astrology all intertwine together. Each one is like a helping hand for the other one.

Each sign has certain traits. For example the traits of Aquarius are as followed:

Good communication skills
Sociable
Idealist
Tactless
Desires change
A utopian

I see this things to play a major part in my over all fate. The way that things are meant to be.

Certain things may come along where I will use my free will and go off on a different course. I would use this as my free will. The decision to choose which road I want to go. All in all.. the roads might be different paths, but they will all end up at the same out come.

I hope that makes sense.



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CryingMist
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03:18:54 Oct 06 2007
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will is what will direct the choice and outcome of those choices, everything that happens in life is the result of our choice and that result is the action of our will.



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urhomicidalwish
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04:56:17 Oct 06 2007
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I believe in fate and I believe that god/Allah can take it away. I also believe that it is anyones decision or free will if they wanted their life to be taken away too and that it shouldn’t be disturbed by anyone who thinks they shouldn’t die at there own will because after all… it is their decision.



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RavenEyes
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05:48:39 Oct 06 2007
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Personally I believe in both. I think I have a predetermined fate, but also have the free will to go against Fate and change it to my liking. Why? The thought just appeals to me.



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Joli
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06:29:00 Oct 06 2007
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Predestination suggests that someone has written your script. I do not believe that is so.

If god exists, he simply has good seats - a great view. He can see time as it truly is, not our linear concept of it.

If you point to the Bible and believe in the God who gave you choice, it makes little sense to believe your fate is predetermined for you. You really do get to affect the world by what you choose to do.

Just because your actions can be seen through a quantum lens does not mean that the one holding that lens also plucks at puppet strings.



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playerone
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06:41:44 Oct 06 2007
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I dont belive in fate, in my opinion, life is nothing more than a serise of choices, then death. The only thing that we are destin for, or fated to do in life is die. Everything else can be controled.



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LadyRavana
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07:01:54 Oct 06 2007
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i think it is both

free will because we do have a choice as to what we are doing and where we are going

fate because at times it seems like someone or something just takes control and pushes you into a set situation that seems to have no way out but one



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Whispersinthewind
Whispersinthewind

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07:03:20 Oct 06 2007
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So far I am in a rather good mood over this thread. Since it appeals to me warmly. I am digesting all the posts within and am getting a great admiration for most of the posts and for the designer of this thread.

With the concept of fate intertwined with astrology made famous by such astronomers as plato, nostradomus, and other like minds, I can honestly say that many studies say the same thing, these studies coming from human minds and not from ethereal desires.

My point being, the universe plays a major role in the arcana of human kind, that of "fate" as it seems to repeat itself throughout the vast conciousness of human history seems to provide proof that fate intervines in some ways.

Individually speaking, each person has freewill regardless if fate is woven or not, but they cannot still grasp the concept of the machinations of the stars. No one really knows for certain the wonders of the energetic vibrations of space, time, and or the quantum theories of the spectrum as we know it.

It really is only a matter of opinion whether fate is bound to us, or free will is inherant. But as we all proceed to broaden our ages with time, the knowledge within always seems to play a game of universal jest no matter what. This way, the equation of fate stems from something a bit further than our own minds which merely adhere to selfish desires we cannot help but to commit to subconciously.

This being said, I will leave you to your thoughts.



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Catalunah
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07:30:59 Oct 06 2007
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I believe in free-will even though I had a prophesy written about me at my birth. I've spent most of my life downcasting but I don't know if Fate has played into it or raather my own perspectives have since I have noticed some of the stuff mentioned has taken place.


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Scatterspell
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08:09:56 Oct 06 2007
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Free will. Fate is such a pessimistic view of life



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lordxofxwar
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08:26:20 Oct 06 2007
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You made your past and will create your future. That is free will. I see fate as the end result of your free will. Your fate was created by you and the actions you took using your free will.



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Carvall
Carvall

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09:46:22 Oct 06 2007
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Though it seems to be a contradiction, I do believe in both fate and free will.

I find astrollogy a useful tool which can be a signpost if you like, just as other forms of divination.



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RagingDarkness
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11:42:56 Oct 06 2007
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I can give you my opinion but as to prove or evidence well that would be difficult to do.

I believe in free will, and fate to a certain extent. I have found that many people can believe too much in fate, thinking that every little thing from a word to a monumental event is ordain by fate. However if this was the case, where does free will fit in? It doesn't.

So my belief is that fate is like a wavering pathway, there is a destination its just up to us how we get there. We go from a point A at birth to arrive at point B by the time it is our time to move on.

I believe this because with free will we have the right to choose our direction in any way we choose. It is part of our learning and development on a spiritual level. Without free will I feel we would be monotonous robots all travelling directly to our destination with not stops or side tracks. And I think those stops and side tracks are need to understand the destination and the journey.

I don't know if I made any sense. However I guess when it comes to proof, all religions exercise and belief in free will, in fate being the destination NOT the journey its self. Astrology and with all divination are tools to help us along the way.

Well thats my 5 cents worth, not sure if it helps you any but, there is my theory.



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Drakontion
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12:59:05 Oct 06 2007
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Although I might prefer to think of the idea that my life sucks because it was destined to be that way, alas I am aware that it is my own decisions that have set me on the path I'm currently treading. Free will all the way, baby.



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DaQueenOfNight
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13:06:25 Oct 06 2007
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I believe that we both have free will and fate...We have the choice to do as we want to and I also believe that we are destined to do things and go places, therefore fate.



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Sonneillon
Sonneillon

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13:29:42 Oct 06 2007
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I just can't grasp the concept of "Fate". I cannot believe that our destiny's have been predetermined for us. If our lives have already been mapped out, which means someone else is in control, then how can we have "Free Will"??



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CelestiaNocturne
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13:32:12 Oct 06 2007
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I love this topic :). I am a firm believer in both Fate and Free Will. I think that you have the most control in your life, but that Fate offers Her hand in important situations in life.

I know its short but its early and im not properly caffinated.



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Killingmesoftly86
Killingmesoftly86

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13:34:33 Oct 06 2007
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I believe that fate is your own thing to control and free will is definetly something I believe in ^.^ everyone has thier own and decides where to go



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Carvall
Carvall

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13:35:04 Oct 06 2007
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Sonneillon

How about if we oursleves have determinded our path before we came into this body in this dimension ?



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eternaldarkness1
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13:45:14 Oct 06 2007
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I am a very firm believer in fate i think we all are fated some how in our lifes the choices that we make and the desitions. I also believe in free will if fate deals you something that is meant to be you also have the choice to not follow it that is why you are given free will. Fate can sometimes hit you like a brick, I believe that sometimes you are fated to be with someone nomatter what you try to do. You cant seem to move on or you end up with that person again down the road. I think that fate is always in our lives what you choice to do is up to you.



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Sonneillon
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15:16:45 Oct 06 2007
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Carvall,

I'm not buying it. If that was the case, predetermining our own paths before we're born, I would have chosen NOT to be born.

If everyone were to predetermine their own paths before they're born, then we'd have a bunch of Einstein's running around in the world.

Let's say, you have a predetermined fate that you are going to become president of the United States one day, but free will let's you make the choice whether or not you want to get into politics, and you choose a totally different career and never become president of the United States, how can there be "fate" when you have "free will"?



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DeadRosesForDeadHearts
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15:18:01 Oct 06 2007
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Both, they work in harmony for a balenced result



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Toothache42
Toothache42

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15:30:15 Oct 06 2007
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The idea of fate has always fascinated me. Here's my take on it:

If everything's planned out for you, why bother deciding something? I mean, it's like it doesn't matter whether you decide to something, eventually you'll end up in a pre-determined location, suffering a pre-determined event. Right?

Not completely. To a certain extend, we have free will over the mundane aspects of life - all the things that aren't gonna matter in the long run, for example whether you eat steak or burgers for your supper, at least you've had something to eat. Fate applies, in my opinion, on a more important level, when your life threads are entwined with at least one other in a major event. I'm talking life-changing stuff here, births, deaths, etc. Things that we all experience during our lives and make a big impact.

Just my coupla coins on the matter



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TheHellequin
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15:53:56 Oct 06 2007
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I don't believe in free will because of the inevitable existence of a universal theory of everything. That immediately gives a logic and a direction to existence that we might deem as being "fate"

Take for example a cloud of steam - to the naked eye and uninformed observer it is completely random. But in fact, each particle of water in that cloud, and the air around it, are behaving according to known rules and limitations of physics.

Free will can APPEAR to be in play, but on close observation it can be shown that there are only ever a finite number of degrees of freedom in place.



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Kryptick
Kryptick

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20:25:29 Oct 06 2007
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I believe that everybody has one set destiny and multiple paths of fate.
So I believe in both free will and fate.
One has free will, so they can choose whatever path they wish to take, but either path will ultimately lead to their destiny.



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Wolfsbohne
Wolfsbohne

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03:14:39 Oct 07 2007
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Unfortunately, this is probably the reason my previous thread was promptly closed. I suppose I should have put more focus on the idea of Astrological prediction - which is what has been left out by all but a few here.

Consider a meteorologist. They study the weather, past and present. Based on past observations and current atmospheric events, they are able to predict the course of a storm, the heat index for the day, the severity of a winter, etc. albeit sometimes completely far from the mark. Based on this concept we can see how humans in general may repeat their own patterns regardless of free will.

Let's refine it to the individual. The human body is comprised of organs, comprised of cells, comprised of molecules, which are ultimately comprised of atoms. Now, when we look at an atom, we see that it is pretty much made of protons, nutrons, and electrons which act in direct relation to each others polarity - not unsimilar to the celestial bodies of the firmament. Because our own physical bodies are composed of atoms that are directly affected (and scientifically proven as such) by the planetary movements of such bodies as Mars, the Sun, and the Moon, it shouldn't be all that rediculous of a notion to suggest that our futures may be divined from them.

Having broken our ego down to simple primordial elements from which all things on our Earth are made, do you still think free will determines all things?

And I would like to thank Soulshroude for joining us. I always appreciate your insight.



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DragonWolf
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03:21:18 Oct 07 2007
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Yes, I do believe in fate. We all have a plan to follow, and when something goes off course, fate comes around to fix it through some means to bring it back on to where it should be. I have come across a couple relationships to make me feel this way. Because our current actions are still based on our past lives. The person I am with right now I believe to be my possible final fate relationship...we shall see. If not, they will send me on my way. But you still control your course to a point. Fate is only to keep you going to where you're supposed to be in the end.



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jmpmaster
jmpmaster

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03:22:32 Oct 07 2007
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Hmm I would have to go with Fate.

Becouse fate is what and how you make it and that no matter how hard someone may try to but they can't controle any one persons fate



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xPsychex
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04:30:05 Oct 07 2007
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I believe that everyone has a path they must follow. At times there are forks in the road and we are allowed choice, but even that is limited to what fate has decreed.



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Theshining1
Theshining1

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04:34:55 Oct 07 2007
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i believe in fate..



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dakoda09
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07:57:54 Oct 07 2007
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both i think some things are ment to happen no matter what the free will is how we chose to get there



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darklass
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11:47:16 Oct 07 2007
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I believe in fate, there is a path to walk along and then we choose of our own free will which one to walk along and which one not to. so i believe in both.



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RedFlavour
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11:58:57 Oct 07 2007
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i believe in both.
free will can help the fate or can change it as we make our decidions daily.



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NightWalker
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12:58:19 Oct 07 2007
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I belive that we have free will to do what we want but your destiny is laid out for you, your fat and destiny are linked together, your free will will automatically follow destiny because thats who you are..



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MoonRainbow1
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13:23:53 Oct 07 2007
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I believe in both fate and free will. fate being all the different paths with an end destination and free will, your choice of which path to go down with some crossroads along the way.



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Carvall
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13:42:11 Oct 07 2007
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Sonneillon

What if we were allowed some input not everything down to the last detail ?

Take your scenario.......with help and advice I decide to be born to this world with a desire to change things through pollitics.

I'm about to be elected into local government.

I find that I am disgusted with the level of corruption and decide not to contiue with that path.....instead I join a civil liberties group.

I would still be effecting a change which was the object of the original plan....just not in quite the same way.

Perhaps our higher selves or oversoul, only gives us a certain level of freedom of choice in the matter of being born.



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EmpresZoey
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14:51:32 Oct 07 2007
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I believe in free will because if there wasn't free will do u honestly think people would kill rape of hurt others? and fate.... no because if someone dies when he/she is 5 or 6 or whatever I don't believe it was supposed to happen. if it was thier fate that means it was supposed to happen



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karnstein
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14:54:46 Oct 07 2007
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its funny you should bring this up, coz I have known several Sagitarians who have been diagnosed as schizophrenic, and I suffer from asthma and hay fever. i'm gemini, and geminis are supposed to be prone to respiratory problems. maybe there is something in it.

before anyone says the stars can't affect you, i would like to point out that the stars dont need to affect you for astrology to work. astrology is a measuring system, and it is a known fact that different times of the year will have a different effect on people. if you are born in december your immediate environment will be very different in the first few weeks of your life than if you were born in april.



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Carvall
Carvall

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14:59:42 Oct 07 2007
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karnstein

Yes....I have noticed certain traits among people born at certain times of the year...but like most people get fed up of being told I'm so and so because of my starsign.

If anyone else tells me I'm athletic am gonna post a photo...so be warned lol



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Sonneillon
Sonneillon

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15:08:33 Oct 07 2007
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Carvall,

While I do agree with your conception for the most part, what I was trying to get at was, if we all predetermine our fate's before we're born, then there would be, for example, no homeless people in the world.

I mean, c'mon, who would predetermine their fate to be a homeless person and die that way? Nobody.

And, although you rebuttled a good example from my previous senario, you didn't exactly give the response my scenario was looking for.....

Let's say, you have a predetermined fate that you are going to become president of the United States one day, but free will let's you make the choice whether or not you want to get into politics, and you choose a totally different career and never become president of the United States, how can there be "fate" when you have "free will"?

You rebuttle stating you were going to stay into politics, but that's not what my senario exampled. So, you can't really answer the question I asked correctly and truthfully.



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Sonneillon
Sonneillon

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15:11:52 Oct 07 2007
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And after looking at my senario one last time, perhaps I should have been more detailed, lol.

Ok, what I meant by "totally different career" was that you had gotten away from politics altogether, let's say you start building computers for a living because that's what you liked to do as a hobby.



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Carvall
Carvall

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16:50:03 Oct 07 2007
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Sonneillon

Yes I understand but it's just that I don't think one's plan is ever that specific.

Instead of thinking I plan on being the president, think I aim to effect a change in this lifetime hopefully for the good of people which I think will be most effective by getting into politics......

But hey....technology may also be a path which may be used for the betterment of people.

Or....if on the way to your goal of being president, you fall in love...your lady is attacked by a madman and needs your care and attention 24/7......you choose to be her carer........you would still be living a life of service....it's the intention or motive rather than the goal of self.



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karnstein
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17:08:23 Oct 07 2007
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free will and fate are not mutually exclusive. for instance, let's say you fell out of an airplane. gravity will pull you down, so there is no getting away from your fate - you will fall downwards. however, you have free will. you can fall down kicking and screaming, you can fall down calmly singing your favourite song, you can close your eyes and pray, or you can pull that ripchord.



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DixieChic
DixieChic
Enchanter (80)
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17:22:11 Oct 07 2007
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Fate cannot be fought. I believe in it totally. Sometimes it will allow you to make choices..but only those it deems fit.



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UrsaMorbier
UrsaMorbier
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17:28:00 Oct 07 2007
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I belive in the free will



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RosemaryRain
RosemaryRain
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19:13:13 Oct 07 2007
Read 758 times

I believe in neither fate nor free will.
I suppose I believe in free will as far as the fact that people choose what they wish to do and behave and such..

but I believe that things just /happen/. and that little things can affect things and make huge differences in how life is all together.


say,
your mother had a lover, but he died in some war. but she ended up marrying a different man and having you.
had the lover not died, would it still be you that was existing?

See, what I mean is that.. /everything/ is contingent. the leaf that you decided to step on just b/c it looked oh, so crunchy.. could not stepping on it have kept you from being ran into by some kid on a bike?


Okay, /HORRIBLE/ examples, sure.
but I believe most are smart enough to understand. =P


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Sonneillon
Sonneillon

No Longer Registered
19:17:39 Oct 07 2007
Read 756 times

Carvall,

Yeah, I've lost my train of thought somehow, lol.

All in all, I just can't believe that we are not in control of our own lives. How can there be any free will if our lives are already set in stone from fate?



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karnstein
karnstein
Hellion (73)
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19:27:22 Oct 07 2007
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rosemaryraine - i have often pondered that. how much of who we are is genetic, and how much of it is environment? if my parents were not my natural parents, but had adopted me, or there had been a mix up at the hospital, would i be any different? does it matter? whether my personality was formed by genetics or by environment, is that not still fate? is it not mere chance that i was born male rather than female? what if i had been born a girl? how would i have been different?



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TwistedWhispers
TwistedWhispers

No Longer Registered
21:05:13 Oct 07 2007
Read 745 times

Cheers Listless,

I'm an Aquarian with an Aquarius rising....what's that mean for me, my friends are doomed lol

I believe in free will and being the decider of my own destiny but to tell you the truth sometimes those horoscopes are very eerily acurate....for me at least!!



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Carvall
Carvall

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21:09:54 Oct 07 2007
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Sonneillon

But if we have the upper hand in the choosing ?...lol.........it can really mess up your mind lol



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Carvall
Carvall

No Longer Registered
21:13:17 Oct 07 2007
Read 737 times

RosemaryRain

Yes I think you would still be you.....the spirit which animates the flesh....your skin tone, hair, eyes and sex may have changed.....just working with a different set of tools.



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Wolfsbohne
Wolfsbohne

No Longer Registered
15:26:13 Oct 09 2007
Read 729 times

I feel this thread has run its course. Thank you for your responses.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by Wolfsbohne on Oct 09 2007  •

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