I was reading something and a point was made that god forgives all sins. I am not bashing the comment but it just made me think and of course want to ask for other opinions. If God forgives all sins then why would there be a hell that is suppose to be filled with sinners?
Fear and control …. Just like a pervert telling there victim your parents will die if you say anything …. Why else would someone make up a horrible place like hell.
Mind you logically thinking all that has been done for the name of religion against those that believe in the same power… all go to heaven… must be one bloody battle now there immortals lol
We don't go to hell after we die, we live our hell now but we are sllowed to choose the way we live our hell with the decisions we make it's called the life we live.
Well that is really how I see it as well heaven is a place to go if you are good, like a parent telling their kid if you are good we will go to the zoo later or if you are bad you are going to be punished. It is all religions way of keeping the masses under control. But then it depends on your religion some say everyone goes to heaven because god is forgiving but that totally goes against the idea that the evil go to hell.
It is my understanding that you need to ask for forgiveness and repent of your sins.
yeah I can see that being a way to stay out of hell repent and have your sins forgiven but for those that don't, the religious believe that they go to hell but the question was if all sins are forgiven why is there a hell?
hell wow some believe and some dont.. .. hey the way i look at hell is how you live it.. stress is hell and when you get rid of stress it feels like heaven..
Buddhists believe that there are 18 levels of hell not just one. This concept began during the Tang Dynasty. Each hell would consist of a differernt type of torture depending on what kind of crimes you have commited during your lifetime.
I think if you havent realized what your mission was to accomplish as a person with your life, to repent what you have done wrong or to forgive yourself than the higher power will have to take control at that time. Whether that will bve your "hell" or not that is really no one ones answer.
I guess I should have said that I thought I had read that God forgives all sins IF you repent and believe in him. Does it actually say all sins are forgiven and you will go to heaven? Just wondering because I can't remember.
wow this is the first time hearing about 18 layers of hell .. there was something like seven to nine layers that i posted one other thread way back.. but this would be interesting to check out
that is neat I didn't know that I have heard of the 7 levels of hell from Dante's Inferno that have tortures for all the sins commited
well i found it on the net that there was 7 layers but i think i posted in the wrong thread
Well Pandora the bible if you are going by that says that IF you repent then all sins are forgiven. Catholic religion from what I understand also have you going to a fiery pit if you are bad or to purgatory if you are a non believer or are unbaptized
ok BB thats what I had thought so wouldn't there need to be a hell for the ones that don't repent? But thats for those religions that abide by the bible I suppose.
see that was my thought as well. It all comes down to heaven and hell. good and bad, up or down, you can't have one without the other.
The contradiction that keeps coming to mind is the "original sin" aspect. We all know this one.
Well, some religions believe that when a child is born it is pure and free of sin, meaning if it dies before a certain age, it automatically has a place in "heaven". But the contradiction also states, that we are all born with sin...Sooo explain that one??
Repent my arse, if I have a sin, then I probably deserved to earn it. I am unforgiving about what I mean to do. I ment to do it, therefore, hell no I am not sorry.
I have found the bible to be so full of contradictions like that so it is hard for anyone to know what is really going on. One religion has you believe that there is a hell while another says that this is hell. Going by what reading I have done we are living in hell on earth now and that the literal translation of hell or hades in the hebrew and greek is the grave.
Of course it would be the grave...Since that is the be all end all, this conclusion would seem like a fine idea for fear of death, graveside hell...Nice!
We as humans have to balance things out, hence good and evil, good luck and bad luck etc etc. Which is why we have a heaven and hell to balance things out.
i think the heaven and hell thing is something religions use to make their belive to make sence.
Im catholic and I never heard of going to pergatory if you are not baptized
Eh, religion is just there so those of little self confidence can find a higher power to give them hope for whatever they deem worthy.
I guess hell is a sort of purgatory for those souls wich made many bad deeds, and need to pay their debt, before god can treat them equaly and forgive them.
Why is there a hell?
Hell exists for those who want to go to heaven and so, in my eyes is just a threat made so people will abide by set laws made by The Church
It's one of those things where if you have sinned then god can only forgive you if repent your sins by praying and other religious things.
The powers that be had to create a place like hell to deter the religious followers to not sin and be good little worshipers.
xMitsix.... very true and nice :D To bad we don't fallow the rules
actually hell dont really exist, the word itself has its origin in antique greek, the latin word was: enferno, meaning enfermer (french word for lock up) there for only meaning being lock up somewhere as Job himself asked to be send to hell in the scripture of Sacy, showing that it would both illogical and not really sane to ask to go to e aplce if that place existed where tourment is constant.
Mainly the vatican chose to enhance the beleif to make sure the beleivers would behave.
the scirpture of Sacy, are no longer vaialbel unless you go to a librairy that has old books
Since I am not of a structured religion. I do believe there is life after death.
I do not believe God is a evil God to put each and everyone of his creations in a pit of fire.
However I do believe...that when our Spirit is carried towards the white light, we feel every pain that we have caused others before entering.
There are so many different aspects on this subject.
I just put in my 2 cents whatever it is worth.
Blessed Be
Some people are walking the line of isulting religion. Watch what you say or a Dominar will close this thread, and I would hate to see that as it is a good topic.
To the question: why is there a hell?
Have you ever heard the phrase: you are your worst enemy?
I think the idea of hell stems from those that actively work against themselves, that do not try to live life with their purpose being honored. Basically I think if we are miserable, it is our own doing. We allow ourselves to remain hindered.
It is the same idea that is in eastern religions- the path to enlightenment. It is not the same for everyone, yet it is something we view as utopia or heaven on earth.
So no matter what your religious views are, the idea of heaven and hell to me are metaphors on how to live in the now. Motivators to encourage people to not remain in the same thought process. Now the contradictions on scripture of all religions comes from how someone interprets the text.
None of us are perfect, so when we read the same sentence, we all walk away with a different idea. Most religious documents are combinations of myth, lore, history and morality.
A "life for dummies" book. It is how you use it that will lead to enlightenment, or complete chaos from contradiction. It is our differences that allow us all to have different perspectives on what hell is or is not.
I would actually argue, to the enlightened mind, there is no such thing. Because the are not burdened by what is, was or will be. They simply are.
If u confess your sins and ask for forgiveness then u are forgiven. But there are people out there that are true evil and will not ask to be forgiven, these are the people that are sent to spenp eternity in hell
I believe the idea of hell can be viewed on as an esoteric science.
I believe heaven and hell are the same place, only to what one person is heaven would be another persons hell.
there is a hell becuase there is a Heaven what ever God has the devil has
There is a hell for those of us who choose this fate... no one knows for sure what heaven will be like or what hell will be like... we each believe blindly and search for answers all of our days... we know not the answers, no matter how scholarly one believes they may be... they are only guessing and that fact makes us all equal...
Just like fable or ghost stories told to children to make them mind their manners or the boogyman will get them. the same concept.
It is probably for those who truly arent sorry for their sins. Those who arent sorry wont get forgiven. Very nice point there
It is to my knowledge that even though God will forgive us for all of our sins, we must first ask for forgiveness and repent for our sins.
Not to mention, in my belief, how can you have something such as Heaven without Hell to balance it out?
It's nature's way of things to have balance in all things.
Barbara Walker devotes 8 pages to Hell. Her mantra is "I blame the Patriarchy," which is hard (for me) to argue with.
She says hell ". . . was the most sadistic fantsy ever conceived by the mind of men. It was described, painted, and contemplated with incredibly perverse relish."
Even if you're not Christian, or active in any religion the archetype of Hell is hard to escape. It's in our art, our fiction, on T.V.
And the heirarchies of hell imitated those on earth, as well as our petty jealousies. "Theologians insisted that the joy of the blessed ones in heaven couldn't be complete unless they were permitted to gloat over the sufferings of the damned."
This goes to that basic argument I keep seeing in these forums that if you have good you must have evil argument that I have so much trouble with.
In my opinion as well, you must believe in god to have either heaven or hell, and i dont believe there is a god. and i also agree that religion was created to keep order amoung people and scare them into being civilized.
Personally i don't think all sins are forgiven, theres some things that are done that don't deserve forgiveness, and were told god forgives all in hopes we will behave, but people don't and they deserve to rot in hell.
The Judeo-Christian concept of "Hell" finds its origins in the mythical underground "prison" where the "Fallen Angels" are supposedly kept in chains and torment. When combined with other religions' concept of an after-life "underworld," this legend became twisted into the "fire and brimstone" underground "Hell" of medieval Christianity.
Hell is to punish those that deny jesus...
Jesus was the earth form of God, yet His son too... The only way to really go to hell, is to continue to sin with out repenting, that is denying Jesus and God,
so hell is there to punish the true sinners...
There is a very simple reality, a law if you will, which pervades our universe. Nothing can exist fully without its opposite existing as well.
Cold exists because there is heat. Order exists because there is chaos. Light exists because there is darkness.
Thus Hell exists because there is a Heaven. That simple.
And as I have stated before, I am not personally a Christian, but I have done years of extensive research regarding this religion, and attempt to answer all questions regarding any faith within the bounds of that faith.
alastordarc -
Sorry... no such scientific or logical law exists. You cannot logically state that any extreme's existence depends upon and/or is conditional upon the existence of its opposite.
For example: "darkness" is, by definition, the absence of visible electro-magnetic energy. This no-energy state does not, by its existence alone, create... light! So also the existence of a non-thermal energetic state (i.e., "Cold") does not somehow create thermal energy (Heat).
Thus, by these two examples alone, the absence of energy cannot somehow magically create its energetic opposite.
Thus... (continuing my thought from above and so as to tie it all in to this discussion) ... just because someone imagines a "Heaven" does not mean that it does exist to begin with nor does it somehow also create or depend upon the existence of its conceptual opposite: "Hell."
I think good an evil is just apoint of view, and hell is something created by our own imaginations, it would be nice if there was an afterlife and a heaven or hell, but that requires blind faith and believeing that something exists without proof. and i think it is a foolish belief and to live your life based on the assumption that there is an afterlife. We live we die thats the only thing that is certain, no proof that we go somewhere once we die.
LOL, Bathory Babe..that is so logical, and if it were true it would be true to assume that everyone would confess their sins prior to dying. Maybe hell is just for those that don't have time to confess before dying! But then it can't be as easy as just that..can it?
My head is spinning again...
I like the quote about spirituality and religion, it goes something like this:
Religion feeds the fear of going to hell, spirituality is having been there.
My life can be a living hell...if I choose to live it that way.
Cola: Hence the expression, "Life is a living hell"
Personally I think we make hell for ourselves, by our own thoughts and actions..
T his is what i think so take it for what it is worth. The idea of hell is a judo/ christin concept and is one of the lagest contradictions in the bible story. They say you hve"free will" within that beleif yet you make the wrong choice and you burn forever in other words do what i say live forever in "heven" with me or i love you but do not serve me and do as i say and you will be in"hell" does not sound ike free will to me.
there's supposed to be this thing like god needs the devil to tempt us to show that we can resist or that we can ask for forgivness after failing prey to....but i think hell is mroe about giving ppl something to fear so they behave good.
just like you threaten to ground a kid if he/she miss behaves.
Some believe if you have sex before marriage your going to hell, some say that if a small child is not baptize they go to hell, and Radu eats them, some say if you don't believe what they believe your going to hell.
We have the seven deadly sin, and those would send us right to hell. I believe people can change, but if they have to much blackness on there heart and soul, they can never change.
UpirLikhyj explains it perfectly from a jud/chris point.
Religions...fear and guilt driven...hell as a deterent from acting outside the boundaries of your religion.
Here's a side topic: Does the majority of modern society refrain from committing 'sins' or crimes for fear of punishment in hell, or from fear of getting caught and paying the consequences (prison, fines, criminal record, etc.) or becuase it is against their moral values?
othis -
I do not at all find it contradictory that consequences both good and bad do follow our freely chosen actions, both in this life and... if life continues... hereafter. That is not a religious concept; it is just Reality.
If I freely choose to drink and drive, I also choose the consequences that could follow. If I freely choose to act in any way both positive and negative, I shall indeed reap the positive and/or negative consequences... whether short term or long term. If the Judeo-Christian paradigm offends, I could as easily express this natural "Law" in terms of other religious beliefs as well, such as the concept of "Karma."
Thus, to state that we are rewarded/punished by Life/God/Whatever depending on our freely chosen actions is perhaps the single most important true principle of Life, itself. It is what teaches us all the key importance of learning the principle of personal responsibility.
And should Life continue after mortality, this key principle will surely follow, as well.
Hell is that to dear, but some don't want to see him as there god. They can have other that they believe and have faith in. God again in a way for someone to push there views on to other people, and to rule them with fear of hell. What happens when that person does not care if they are going to "hell" or not?
This is something I have always questioned myself.. if Jesus died on the cross for our sins and God forgives all sins why is there a hell.
I think it was something created to put fear into people and so therefore it is easier to control their mind set. Plus it is suppose to be a place where those not of that particular faith go to because we are heathens and not allowed in heaven :P
TegoSanguisitim -
Your "side topic" would make for an excellent separate philosophical discussion as this is a question I have considered quite extensively.
As regards the question under discussion here (though it does indirectly touch on your secondary question), I have taught my own children that when they were little, there was much that could not be deeply explained regarding why they should or should not do something.
When children are very young, you often have to teach them through the simplistic yet vitally important, negative/positive reinforcement that little children understand best. You cannot expect a two or a three year old to understand all the many dangers associated with leaving a parent's side in a shopping mall. To do so would only confuse the child and would not circumvent the child's immature decision-making process should something of interest away from the parent attract his/her attention. So... as a parent you tell the child that he/she must hold your hand and must stay next to you. If the child obeys, there might be a positive reinforcement "consequence." However, if the child disobeys, there most certainly will be a negative reinforcement consequence. This the child will understand better (e.g., "Stay with mommy and you will get a McDonald's 'Happy Meal' after Mommy is through shopping. Disobey Mommy and you'll get a spanking instead.").
In relgious terms... be good and you'll go to "Heaven, be bad and you'll go to "Hell."
Now... as the child matures and their ability to understand Life better grows, you are able to reason with them and have them slowly begin to understand the realities of both short-term and long-term consequences, both physical as well as emotional and spiritual. The child begins to understand concepts like the "Golden Rule" and how selfishness must be tempered and channeled into positive pursuits that benefit more than just oneself alone.
So also as we each mature spiritually, we should likewise come to realize that "Heaven" and "Hell" (the ultimate in the positive/negative concept department) gives way to a far deeper understanding that progress is dependent upon our actions in life and the personal development that positive actions causes within each of us... that doing good IS the reward, itself. Only then will we find we are FAR MORE motivated to do what is right and good and true for our OWN benefit in the long run instead of doing good just so we won't get "caught."
If a person lives their life and during that course is selfish, greedy, grasping and cruel.......then after death, they will gravitate to others who were/are likeminded.
That's what many would call living in hell.
Through the forgivness of a loving God, all of us in this and every life always has the opportunity to progress.
Did God create hell ?.....no, I think we did/do.
Another suggestion of hell is perhaps it is a parellel dimension in the same Universe.
That MJ and some would see this life as a hell in its self
upir makes the best point (but always does in these kinds of discussions)
I dont personally believe in it. i thnk its just there to scare you
to upirlikhyj The concept of hell is a judao/christin point of vew, with that said i understand the right of choice and or carma. That being said the contradiction is that you eather do what you are told to do or burn, does not leave alot of options open, even parents give us options for correcting wrong dooing. To put it sipmple say i do one thing wrong befor i die and do not have time to be "forgiven" would i go to hell or not? In my mind hell is nothing more then a judao/ christin way of scaring people to follow there ways.
othis -
If free choice is provided, then as parents to little children, so also in the religious view does God also grant us our choice; we are simply held accountable for what those choices are. And if we choose wrong, as in real life so also does religion provide the means via repentance to make right what was wrong as far as we are able and to learn not to make the same wrong choice in the future. This also is the principle of "Karma."
The "death-bed repentance" scenario you just now brought up is a bit more problematic, of course. How this affects things both religiously and in Reality are truly unknown and won't be until we do pass through Death and learn for ourselves.
As for "Heaven" and "Hell" being concepts invented by Man to scare and control people... well, of course! This is one of the primary purposes of organized religion, after all. However, this does not change the fact that Free Agency does indeed have both good and bad consequences... and it is not contradictory that religion acknowledges and incorporates that fact in its intentionally controlling dogma.
Hell is a Carnival Lot ...10 minutes after closing the fair...I survived Hell!
dabbler if that be true then i lived it and walked out of it unhurt more then once. lol
Decided that was a bit rude so I shall explain my views a bit more.
Depending on which religion you are depends on whether or not you believe in hell. Since I have no religion I do not believe in hell. But if I recall correctly the only way to be forgiven of a sin is to ask God's forgiveness. If you do not ask for forgiveness it will not be given. So you end up in hell.
Some of the common elements of religious repression
involve torment of those that Oppose their god.So does that mean if they had no punishment place(which is only mentioned vaguely in their text)is far more persassive then treasures in the afterlife.
Alla in the muslim faith made Shitain (sic)from smokeless fire and fireless smoke... illusion so the core is illusions are not worth following.
I found this thing from a report from the vatican for the belief of unbaptized people including babies who go to not so much purgatory but limbo which is just a nicer form of purgatory.
It was the French monk Peter Aberlard who introduced the idea of Limbo. Before the 13th Century, all unbaptized people, including new-born babies who died, went to hell because they had not been cleansed of original sin by the Christian baptism ceremony. Abelard said that babies who had no personal sin didn't deserve such punishment
Earlier this year, in his new position of supreme power, the Pope gave his approval to a 41-page document drafted by the International Theological Convention, although adding that its conclusions were not to be considered Roman Catholic Church dogma. Published in US magazine 'Origins', the report announced: "The many factors that we have considered... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved."
And so a concept that had been preached and believed in for 800 years has been virtually abolished. It's sad that a baseless fable should have caused so much mental anguish to Catholic parents of stillborn or early-dead children over the centuries, believing that their child would never reach Heaven, and whose little corpse was refused burial in the church graveyard. Instead they can now believe as the Muslims do, that the departing soul of an innocent babe will go straight to Heaven.
The word 'Limbo' comes from a Latin word meaning "the edge", and Limbo was usually described as a sort of dim and foggy place where there was no pain, but no real pleasure either. In Purgatory, that other no-man's-land between Heaven and Hell, there is pain. And plenty of it.
Because you have to 'ask' god for forgiveness.
Not to mention, if there really is a god, there has to be a place for non-believers to go.
I don't believe in either heaven or hell.
Those people who do can you tell me how they imagine each place to be because the concept of heaven being all fluffy & cloudy with harp music & hell being some hot inferno just doesn't seem very realistic to me!
Hell is for those who don't ask for forgiveness and do not bow down on Judgment Day. Revelations.
I hope you all are aware of the meaning behind it....... joking aside that is. I wouldn't want to be there for any reason.
LKD - as I've already stated above I don't believe in hell so it doesn't frighten me.
Like I said in another thread, Everyone believes as they wish. And that is fine. But there will be a time when we all know what is true. Until then..... enjoy.
depending on which religion you believe, I have even heard it is a sin to take your own life and you would therefore go to hell. I think it is a balance thing can't have one with out the other, but I have never been to either (yet) so who knows...
So can you answer my earlier question - what do you believe hell to be like?
Being inside the belief system that I've had since childhood, I believe hell to be a place of horror. Worse than anything you could possibly imagine. The Bible says "gnashing of teeth" in various places. Imagine doing that 24/7? I could write an entired page about this but I will spare you all. It's just my beliefs..... not pushing it on anyone.
LKD... I understand what you mean, I was raised roman catholic, Polish parochial school and all... and now I'm recovering...
I'm not criticising anyones beliefs I was just interested to know what people believed this 'place' to be like. Is it a physical place? I'm genuinely interested.
IM... from the thread and the differant religions they have their own interpretations of hell... read the thread it's a good read
LKD I know th mean whole heartdly {if thats how its spelled} I was raised were my family drilled in my head, I was going to hell if I didn't fallow there rules.
Now they think I am the devil its self and wont talk to me At All. :D And they know I don't care
According to my beliefs throughout my life, yes..... it is a physical place. A place of unrest and constant turmoil.
what my thought has always been is if before you die and ask for forgiveness of all your sins to GOD than you may go to heaven. If you don't than you go to hell.
Well my question is for how long? How does God determine how long one serves in hell for their sins until they repent? If they do their time and ask for forgiveness and actually mean it will he than allow them to go to heaven?
It's a one time chance. You don't get time in hell. You stay there. That is what I was taught all these 45 some odd years of my life. You only get one chance on Judgment Day. We have/had a ton of chances while you were living on earth to ask forgiveness....... and then we turn around and commit the same sin over and over. It's a vicious cycle. Judgment day according to the Bible is the final tally.
there really is a legitimate reason behind it... I do believe it has been brought up already, that if there was no mention of hell, and it was thought that there were no issues or any punishments after death.... people would run rampant, and do whatever they want to.
Not all people of course, but the belief does keep a few people from doing things that they otherwise would not hesitate to do.
But wouldn't that be an interesting concept? time off for good behavior? You would think he is having a bit of an overcrowding issue ...LOL
I think my soul will be hung up in the pergatory closet for a while
To extend my statement i have thought it over and it could be more a a Boogie man or chupacabra in Mexico to Scare the Children
Like what has already been stated... Hell is for those who are bad..a scare tactic to keep you on the good path. Like if good, you get to heaven, be bad and go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Dante's Inferno is interesting reading with what 'crime' is a more horrible level than another.
These are just my thoughts, but I believe that hell is a state of existence beyond the grave that is a sort of deep separation from the Divine. I believe that a soul goes there because it created a totally negative existence in the physical realm. I believe that "hell" is a place of total despair that a soul enters because it felt that it deserved to be there. It is a place for the unenlightened to go beyond the grave. Once the soul reconnects with the Divine, and realizes its true being and potential, I feel that it experiences an atonement, and can finally leave that state of despair.
I feel that if you do not believe in hell, why should you go there? In the here and now, I think that souls pay for their own negativity because negative deeds are like boomerangs; they are bound to come back to you. I feel that the reason we are here is to connect with one another, but also to learn new ways to create a positive world for ourselves beyond the grave. Once again, I am not claiming to know what is beyond death, or why the concept of hell exists. With all due respect to the Christian faith, I do not practice or follow the Christian paradigm, so my spiritual beliefs differ somewhat. I just wanted to share my perspective.
As for wether it's a physical place, I believe hell is what you make it. If you think it's all fire and brimstone, then that is what it'll be. Most believe tend to think it's the worst punishment possible, nothing is worse than hell. If that is what you believe then that is what it'll be for you.
I'm not saying if you think hell is all teddy bears and klondike bars, that's what it'll be. Hell is the negative aspect of living your life, as Heaven is the opposite.
I don't believe in either, personally, but I was forced to attend church until I was old enough to make the decision for my own.