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The Degrees of Goth
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dabbler
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21:15:42 Feb 22 2009
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What degrees are there of Goth.

There are a few excellent summaries offered on a number of profiles here on the Rave.

What has Goth been adopted to?

How does Goth Society differ from Goth trend culture?

What is not Goth, and how did the masses label such things Goth?


My introduction to Victorian Era Noir' taught me that some are more Custom, than costume.




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Indulgence
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21:54:07 Feb 22 2009
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Eh, goth doesn't exist anymore. What we have now are people who claim to be goth and think they know what it is, but they don't.

Aside from the sub culture that existed throughout the 80's and late 70's, the only other Goths were the Germanic tribe of the middle ages.

People classify others as goth simply for wearing dark colors which is a completely bollux statement. It's rather pathetic, really.



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dabbler
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22:04:43 Feb 22 2009
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The Noir Genre from France put Drab in Society Fashion. Not being prone to bright colors, and "Chipper" company set aside the parlor set
in the day, once that Society Came out of the Parlor, it thinned with popular application. So indeed you make a case.



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deathnitegrl
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07:56:22 Feb 23 2009
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It seems to me that nowadays is just a fashion item.



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Artume
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08:14:54 Feb 23 2009
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Until this thread was brought to my attention, I forgot about the stereotype that is forced upon certain individuals within society.

I think society really does worry too damned much about the wrong things. If only they would concentrate on their own lives instead of plaquing the world with dramatic tiny little details of worry about everyone else surrounding them.

If you do not like or approve of the way a certain "subculture" dresses, or articulates with fashion then look the other way.

It seems to be the same referance when it comes to any set "subculture" and not just the more popular ones.



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atyourwindow
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12:11:35 Feb 23 2009
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well said souls, however i always hear people defend "goths" by saying no no no its not the kids dressing up in costume and makeup or no no no its not this or that, ok well what the hell is it then? try telling the people what it is you feel is "true goth" for lack of a better term rather than spout off about what its not, we want answers! lol.... and its funny how these 16 and 17 year olds are telling us about the 70s and 80s lmfao!



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Kyriele
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13:39:03 Feb 23 2009
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Odder still?? 70's were punk...not goth. And the idea of "goth" in the 80's?? I remember it being called The New Romantics. That turned into The Cure and Bauhaus etc...but even they didn't label themselves "goth" per se.

And yes..I LIVED as a teenager through both eras..laugh.



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LadyStrange
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14:38:16 Feb 23 2009
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I was always under the impression that new Romantic switched to goth in around 1985. But I can't really comment on the trends of the time since I was only born in 1985.

Goth is just a label these days. And one which so many people have a stereo type of. I consider myself to be sort of gothic for the sake of having to have alabel on me in work, the people I used to work with could no fathom somebody dressing how they pleased and not giving a damn about the latest fashions.

Goth is many different things, it is litrature, architecture some would even say a subconsious.



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Indulgence
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15:46:23 Feb 23 2009
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Kyriele -

Goth emerged in the late end of the 70's. All you have to do is look up musical artists such as Siouxsie and the Banshees.



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LordWolf
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16:40:31 Feb 23 2009
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i find such threads most amusing...it reminds me of some religions that refuse to accept someone else that also claims the same religions on some grounds....in this case, i seem to frequently encounter the "gother than thou"

for me, its about the music (and i am the final authority as to what is goth and what isnt...at least for me. anyone reading this has that same authority ofcoarse), the clothing, the atmosphere, etc. most of all, its about fun...if you dont enjoy it, dont do it.

finally if you take yourself too seriously, just recall, that all the real goths are long dead. like the man said, "if your so goth, where were you when we were sacking rome?!"
~Wolf~



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SamotDuKyrie
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18:10:12 Feb 23 2009
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MBK- Siouxsie and the Banshees was not considered "goth" when they came out. They were a part of the British punk scene but made their mark as a Post-Punk/Experimental and even Avant-Garde band. Their sound progressed to a more pop sound towards then end of their career.

Bauhaus is considered one of the first "goth bands" and they didn't release their first album until 1979. While many will attribute the Banshees on having an influence on the goth music scene back then they weren't labeling it as goth. Just like Zeppelin, Boston, Beatles, etc weren't labeled as "Classic Rock" like they are today. Even Black Sabbath didn't call themselves "Heavy Metal" they considered themselves rooted in blues with just a more darker sound. The tuning down to D Flat is a classic Blues tuning. They were labeled later when they found many bands taking the D Flat "heavier" sound with a lot of power chords.

Music "genres" will always be fluid and evolving. Genre's will be lost, renamed and created always. In the 80's we had New Romantics then in the 90's we had "Alternative" and oddly enough all the New Romantic bands were now "Alternative" because of the influence they had. Arena Rock from the 70's became known as Hair Metal in the late 80's to now. What you know as something now there is a good chance that it wasn't that when it came out, specially if it's been about 20 years or more. I'd trust that when someone lived through it and experienced it. Correcting someone like that is like correcting someone who was close enough to get gray matter spray from JFK.



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Indulgence
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18:11:39 Feb 23 2009
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SamotDuKyrie:


I never said they were when they came out, but that's what they soon turned to and are one of the most well known of "goth" bands.



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dabbler
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18:38:41 Feb 23 2009
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So the tendency to adopt Noir themed culture is consistant to those that are referred to /identified as Goth, though I find that those who are labeled Goth, are usually done so not by themselves but by others.



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dabbler
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18:44:03 Feb 23 2009
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To better state my case, I will use the Emo label, everyone pretty much knows an Emo when one sees Emo, yet few if any Emo Trendsters would proclaim Emo. Perhaps Indy is the closest accepted
label.



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Indulgence
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18:45:11 Feb 23 2009
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dabbler -


There are actually many people who claim themselves to be "goth". I mostly see, however, those who claim to be so of the "young generation". Meaning, I see a lot of kids from 13 to 17 claim to be it -- but I also see many adults do so as well.

However, which group of people classify others/themselves as "goth" more? I'd wonder.



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dabbler
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18:53:06 Feb 23 2009
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The people who have one "punk" outfit that they hall out once a month , that is not "punk" that is cultural-morphism, usually done to sample other sub-cultures, allowing for such expression is healthy at a younger age, however when one projects onto others a more esoteric prestige then that is a self fulfilling fax pas' (they will make a sub-cultural flake of themselves, meaning any conversation seeking indepth, or basic genre related knowledge will expose them as "Posers". )

When a group is based on such a person.. *shivers*....



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LordWolf
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22:05:30 Feb 23 2009
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while i do identify myself as Goth, i think of it more as my secret identity. i cant really be myself at the school where i teach.
cest la vive eh?
~W~



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dabbler
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22:20:34 Feb 23 2009
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That "Behind Doors" aspect is consistent with Noir Society, appearing
mundane in public, yet keeping risque company ..



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Bloodmother
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03:25:37 Feb 24 2009
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You're a teacher, Lord Wolf?



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Jamie
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05:51:36 Feb 24 2009
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I think that it can differ from person to person, as we all have ideas of what goth is. I also believe you can be goth and not be the typical, obviously morbid goth shit.



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LordWolf
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15:29:07 Feb 24 2009
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yeah, i teach high school physics and chemistry....
aint that a hoot?

as for the degrees of goth....i think i have a masters now, but im currently working on my phd.
:c)
perhaps vr can host a phd in goth studies? lol

i enjoy all the morbid goth "shit" personally, but not every minute of my day. the decor of my office (at home) includes a coffin, a statue of the god anubis, and a plethora of skulls, hands sticking out of the walls, etc.
i love that crap.
but when i walk thru the book case, the other room it attatches to is quite mundane.
~W~



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BarefootMisfit
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17:52:00 Feb 24 2009
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AS I am of the older version ,Goth is a way of thinking and living then say your clothes or makeup .kids these days think you have to wear black clothes and lots of makeup and be pale to be a goth and its not so. Gothic was a era in time , not a style. you can look perfectly normal and have a tan but still be Gothic .Obonewits and I both think of ourselves as Gothic as to thinking acting and values.



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dabbler
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19:55:35 Feb 24 2009
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So goth can be stated in what is not Goth, as in not the popular trend/fad. Being critical of the new "IT".



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raziel
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22:25:18 Feb 24 2009
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I will say this. I am who I am,

I live, I die, and to me that's it!
Yes, I dress darker, and wear "gothic" labeled attire,
But as far as categories there are with music,
I call it Underground.

While sometimes if I attend a store or a school, people who are of a "mainstream" lifestyle, whisper "who is the goth guy?"

And trust me, I have heard that numerous times. It does not bother me, but mainstream "Society" looks at people who may include the type of clothing I associate myself with and call me, "Gothic."

So It may not be a term used by many Ravers here, but in mainstream, society seems to call the shots.

Take that however you will...



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Doru
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23:17:09 Feb 24 2009
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It seems that everyone likes to make labels, maybe it is what our culture has taught us to do.

I have done some research on this subject and this is what I have found:

"For anyone who considers the Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim and the Mission to be the archetypal goth bands, the early scene is a rather strange place. The early goth bands were, for the most part, much punkier and livelier, and at one stage were referred to as "Positive Punk". A brief discussion on goths relation to punk can be found on the punk page. In the early years the dominant goth bands were not the Sisters, but UK Decay, the Banshees and Bauhaus, and a discussion on their relative importance in the early scene can be found on the bands page.

Another common misconception about the early goth scene is that it was closely tied to New Romantic. Whilst it had very loose ties with the (nebulous) Futurist scene, the early goth scene had very little to do with New Romantic.

From the following link:
An Early History of Goth



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123vampy
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02:43:22 Feb 25 2009
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true there are different degrees depending where one is. Society has given us lables for us to be notice, its not like we whant to be labled but thats how society sees us as a human genous specious. Its all reletive there is no wrong or right but whats true is society will always lable, untill that stops well, i don't have to say it. we will be labled



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LordWolf
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03:32:25 Feb 25 2009
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some of my fellow teachers look at a student and ask who the goth kid is....and the kid would be horrified to be considered goth. etc etc ad nausium.
its not all that important....i consider myself a goth...and i dont fit any mold your likely to find.

i know many that dont consider themselves goth, that you would swear were goth.

its just about perception and self identification.
~W~



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BelovedDarkness
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04:09:47 Feb 25 2009
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Goth is WELL alive and to say otherwise is to take a shit on an entire subculture! A word most definetly have more than one meaning, Goth is a subculture based on music, art and dark expression while centuries ago is was a culture of warriors that does NOT mean that one or the other just stops existing.
I am GOTH, it is not a dress code, it is not box full of extreme make up, it is not piercing ever bit of skin on your head, Goth IS a life style, GOTH IS an attitude and Goth IS the ability to mentally, emotionally and physically express you views on the world.



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Indulgence
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04:12:00 Feb 25 2009
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I have to argue. That just means you're outspoken. Not a goth.



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cadrewolf
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17:49:01 Feb 25 2009
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Trends of the younger culture to show rebellion in ones culture,showing oppisition to war or politics or life itself.

has been happening since the dawn of time, 50's 60's whatever and their kids will have a new trend to establish.



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bloodmother12208
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01:43:55 Feb 26 2009
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When, I was in school. I had what most of "the new generation" calls a "compound label".

I was the "punk-goth" girl. Ewwwwwww................I hate labels. I'm myself thank you very much. I'm a person, not a soup can.

But I don't think "goth" or "gothic", exists anymore. I think it died out a LONG, LONG time ago. I'm 19 yrs. old.

I guess I wear "the goth fashion/trendsetter clothing". (When I can afford it or have time to make an outfit from scratch.)

But I don't consider myself to be goth or any other label............to have a label is to be restricted. Why can't YOU just be YOU? I think to label yourself is TO BE a poser. If you have to fit in SOOOO BADLY. That you label yourself your either a poser or TOO DAMN pathetic.

Whatever happened to originality? Or flair?



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supremeDMK
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07:39:52 Feb 26 2009
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Just be yourself, if you like to call yourself gothic then just do it and be done with it.

To some people on my school it's just a nice little "fuck you" to the ones we don't like since they don't like "gothics"



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bloodmother12208
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09:22:13 Feb 26 2009
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Yeah. But "social rebellion", although fun and has it's perks, dies away eventually.

Other than being sort-of poseresque. I think it's a "social rebellion". Other than just a genre/fashion/lifestyle.

To not be mainstream or non-conformist. But EVERYBODY is a conformist in one way or another.

Most teens, especially "gothic" ones. Tend to believe that "gothic demeanor" AND" Anarchy" are as close as you can get to non-conformism.

Which that is a BIG, BIG bullschism. There have been MANY people to submit to Anarchy before you. And who were "gothic" before you. Your not the first or the last.



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cadrewolf
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16:56:05 Feb 26 2009
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True bloodmother, they do die out, because of other fades soon develop and take over. Trend of cultures. for like people society is always changing, developing.

Soon my kids, with their rebellion state, will have kids that have a state in which now they are the bad guys.

Boy I can't wait....:)



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ICEqueen666
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18:41:07 Feb 26 2009
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Its all just a bunch of trends as to what "goth" is.



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healer
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19:09:28 Feb 26 2009
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i think its just a state of mind



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dabbler
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21:50:51 Feb 26 2009
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Some mistake anti social behavior for goth, usually people that are rather status quo. So is being socially exclusive goth? I think not, yet outcast tend to be labeled "Out Cast" So a person that does not fit in, is not gothic. To be accepted as a nonconformist is to seek conformity.

A person who dresses the part, and uses all the jargon does not assure adaptation to a sub culture. I am sure even Gothic Society Circles scrutinize who they host.

So the "Them", against "Us" is rather smoked in what are showing to be tolerant times, those who profess "No one excepts me!" Are usually in need of some social skills, ones Subcultural slant should be of no major concern.



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EvolzeroangeL
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08:37:42 Feb 27 2009
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I agree, what people call goth now are emo's, I call myself original goth to try to differentiate, I'm 33 years old and have been "goth" since I was 19. Maybe it counts, maybe it doesnt, just my thoughts on the matter.



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cadrewolf
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17:17:57 Feb 27 2009
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I am sure there are discrimination with in the culture of Goth, Like dabbler has stated, Many sub-cultures in todays society and even the past had there own break out groups or clicks.

Yet when valued from an outsiders view it is basically wrapped into one group. Like her Tho many are different in persona or character, we still are classified by outsider as vampires who do not know the differnce in classes.

South parks view when vampires and goth show showed many from in the town referring them as the same and they fought to be different. Classic example.



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venumstings
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17:29:41 Feb 27 2009
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If society is psychic group of peepal these peepal need not to hide self from common societies coz their act is not challange to common societies, its a goth, society if hiding from common society is total goth, it happen due to save own society from cruel act of other societies in mediaval time such as those time hiding from Pope rule was treated gothic turn of the societies from the curse of the punishment of the pope. If highly psycho spiritual commune with local uncommon customs and tradition they living, is goth. even living in darkness is goth coz goth term represent itself living in darkness. its not fashion.

that time even piercing was the part of tradition of the society that boost their psycho spiritual act of their own community and this become fashion now and no other reason behind it.

In India piercing is not the part of goth. its related to common societies.



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bat7777
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01:41:50 Feb 28 2009
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people choose to lable themselves and others. its absurd. you are either something and you know it or you know your not... being goth is not like being in the military with degrees of rank.



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dabbler
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20:16:52 Feb 28 2009
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The popular stereo types of goth (there are a few ways these are stated on profiles) though all who profess to be goth avoid, and berate others when they see them perpetuate those stereotypes, there is more "I am goth, I just am." really seems to enforce those stereo types, namely that goths are anti social, and moody. All those I have known who are Social Noir' , are more appealing then those who adopt the gothic trend. It is by the application to ones social manner that builds a trend into a sub-culture. Has Goth become a novel catch all Idio-identity group?



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gothmarionette
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20:46:32 Feb 28 2009
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Goth is a label usually applied to something o someone for how they look. I decided to embrace the label for many reasons and no I do not wear black everyday. As I tend to embrace my barbarian side I kept the moniker. However, I do not believe that there is one good answer for goth.
Unless of course you are referring to the Visigoths or other Gothic tribes at that time. Even Gothic architecture had the term goth applied to it as an insult. The Italians were calling the design barbaric.



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dabbler
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20:53:32 Feb 28 2009
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Well summarized, Freak is a label that to some weighs the same as N***er, yet at one time it was a Badge of Honor among those who knew the intention of the Word, relative to others.



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LordWolf
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23:57:34 Mar 01 2009
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"people choose to lable themselves and others. its absurd. you are either something and you know it or you know your not... being goth is not like being in the military with degrees of rank."

darn...and i had wanted to be a goth LT Colonel! LOL
~Wolf~


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cadrewolf
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20:14:35 Mar 02 2009
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Labels we all are human, that should be the only label, but with each society and the new waves that hit the cultural scene, we see new labels always put out to different clicks. it is a cycle that continues and continues.



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dabbler
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20:27:01 Mar 02 2009
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Labels are considered by application, and precedence, If I say I am The Ghost Dabbler, or I am Dabbler The Ghost, can you see the subtle difference, and how others would consider me?



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cadrewolf
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20:38:54 Mar 02 2009
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Yet on that persona it would or could hold different meanings to you or your label in society.

I am not saying that labels are bad or they do not fit in society, have studied classification in culture for so long in socialy and enviroment, yet it is a week point in which classifacation of individuals thru culture, fad or era has come to be known.



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Calea
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20:40:51 Mar 02 2009
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As gothmarionette stated, the term Gothic was applied to a particular style of architecture (one which was completely unrelated to the Germanic Goths) as an insult for cathedrals being overly ornate and gaudy. Since this is how the word originated, I can't help but suppose that the modern label "goth" developed as a result of the fashion following a similar dark and ornate style.

So first we have the Visigoths and Otsragoths whose names were transferred and used as an insult to an outdated style of architecture. Then the names is once again transferred to a modern day style and subculture.

Over time the meaning of a word changes, along with the cultural context. What is happening now is that "goth" is becomming an umbrella word for all dark creepy people who wear lots of black.



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cadrewolf
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20:43:33 Mar 02 2009
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I always wear black, i am not goth, I painted my fingers and wore outrages cloths during the 80's was I considered goth. "metal, Galm rock, Stoner) Rebel.

Classification or individuals that do not fit in societies norm. Labels like on food. so that that norm society can group individuals as rebels or followers.



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dabbler
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20:45:57 Mar 02 2009
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The precedence of the Label is key to understanding the persons intent, for adopting the label, or labeling someone else.



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cadrewolf
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20:50:04 Mar 02 2009
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Quite profound, dabbler.

Labels are mock stereo types of classes of society, like the labels Middle class poor rich. classifications put to put certain individuals in their own slave in society.

Happens on ships, restaurants, shows. Classes and labels have been adapted in all walks of culture development.



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Nightgod
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23:11:38 Mar 02 2009
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Goth is an old religon most people think they follow. but society has taken it and turned it into a fasion trend which they will burn in the underworld for



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dabbler
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01:26:49 Mar 03 2009
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When a person places their sub-culture before identity, it always seems so.. whats the word.. whats the word.. Ah Generic..

That social larkster, When a sub-culture is tolerated, those that thrive off the staring peoples attention. Sub-cultures in general suffer in the PR area because of such generic Trendsters. Then the Elitist on the other side oppress with assumed authority (being critical of all who declare themselves a "Society" member, Then in the middle is the Noirist , not being dazed, and mystified in the dark, but entertaining
in the shadows. Being critical of trends, and fads has always been a Parlor Society Tradition, those that wanted others to believe they had knowledge, of parlor antics (it was not proper to attend such loose activities) they would accept popular speculation about those antics, offering them to others as actual fact.
Hucksters would fleece want to be Illiminati Pledges, making them do
embarressing things under the pretense of Initiation, then set the chum up to spill the beans to another claiming praternity..

Selective circles could screen the gossips from their presence
by Esoteric Society,( this is not to be mistaken for Elitism), it is a healthy practice to keep those with deceptive agendas.



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Indulgence
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02:27:53 Mar 03 2009
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Nightgod -


How exactly is goth a religion? What would the worship be? The beliefs? The god or goddess? Explanation, please.



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SadisticDolly
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"The goth subculture is a contemporary subculture found in many countries. It began in the United Kingdom during the early 1980s in the gothic rock scene, an offshoot of the post-punk genre. The goth subculture has survived much longer than others of the same era, and has continued to diversify. Its imagery and cultural proclivities indicate influences from nineteenth century Gothic literature along with horror movies and to a lesser extent the BDSM culture.

The goth subculture has associated tastes in music, aesthetics, and fashion, whether or not all individuals who share those tastes are in fact members of the goth subculture. Gothic music encompasses a number of different styles. Common to all is a tendency towards a lugubrious, mystical sound and outlook. Styles of dress within the subculture range from deathrock, punk, androgynous, Victorian, some Renaissance and Medieval style attire, or combinations of the above, most often with black attire, makeup and hair.


By the 1990s, the term "goth" and the boundaries of the associated subculture had become more contentious. New subcultures emerged, or became more popular, some of them being conflated with the goth subculture by the general public and the popular media. This conflation was primarily owing to similarities of appearance, social customs, and the fashions of the subcultures, rather than the musical genres of the bands associated with them. As time went on, the term was extended further in popular usage, sometimes to define groups that had neither musical nor fashion similarities to the original gothic subculture. This has led to the introduction of goth slang terms that some goths and others use to sort and label members of loosely related or at times unrelated subcultures.

The response of these psuedo-groups to the older subculture varies. Some, being secure in a separate subcultural identity, express offence at being called "goth" in the first place, while others choose to join the existing subculture on its own terms. Still others have simply ignored its existence, and decided to appropriate the term "goth" themselves, and redefine the idea in their own image. Even within the original subculture, changing trends have added to the complexity of attempting to define precise boundaries.




Origins of the term

The original Goths were an Eastern Germanic tribe who played an important role in the fall of the western Roman Empire. In some circles, the name "goth" later became pejorative: synonymous with "barbarian" and the uncultured due to the then-contemporary view of the fall of Rome and depictions of the pagan Gothic tribes during and after the process of Christianization of Europe. During the Renaissance period in Europe, medieval architecture was retroactively labeled gothic architecture, and was considered unfashionable in contrast to the then-modern lines of classical architecture.

In the United Kingdom, by the late 1700s, however, nostalgia for the medieval period led people to become fascinated with medieval gothic ruins. This fascination was often combined with an interest in medieval romances, Roman Catholic religion and the supernatural.

The gothic novel of the late eighteenth century, a genre founded by Horace Walpole with the 1764 publication of The Castle of Otranto, was accountable for the more modern connotations of the term gothic. He originally claimed that the book was a real medieval romance he had discovered and republished. Thus was born the gothic novel's association with fake documentation to increase its effect. Henceforth, the term was associated with a mood of horror, morbidity, darkness and the supernatural as well as camp and self-parody. The gothic novel established much of the iconography of later horror literature and cinema, such as graveyards, ruined castles or churches, ghosts, vampires, nightmares, cursed families, being buried alive and melodramatic plots. An additional notable element was the brooding figure of the gothic villain, which developed into the Byronic hero. The most famous gothic villain is the vampire, a folklore legend of Eastern Europe and the Balkans, best known from Bram Stoker's novel Dracula and the horror movies it influenced.

Certain elements in the dark, atmospheric music and dress of the post punk scene were clearly gothic in this sense. The use of gothic as an adjective in describing this music and its followers led to the term goth.

19th century

The Revolutionary War-era "American Gothic" story of the Headless Horseman, immortalized in Washington Irving's story "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" (published in 1820), marked the arrival in the New World of dark, romantic story-telling. The tale was composed by Irving while he was living in England, and was based on popular tales told by colonial Dutch settlers of New York's Hudson River valley. The story was adapted to film in 1922, and in 1949, in the animated The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad. It was readapted in 1980 and again in Tim Burton's 1999 Sleepy Hollow. Burton, already famous through his films Edward Scissorhands, Beetlejuice and Batman, created a storybook atmosphere filled with darkness and shadow.
"

MBK Edit: Edited due to length of post.

Please include article sources.

Source:
Wikipedia



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dabbler
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01:00:27 Mar 04 2009
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Thank you Sadistic Dolly. I noticed a flux in costumed (fad) goths when SandMan comics came out, I can see how that would make sense.



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Flamethrower
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14:42:42 Mar 04 2009
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Goth is not music or religion. It's not clothes, it's not black, Goths do not worship satan, and it is not dark.

It has no degrees, not if we're talking about the actual gothic culture.

To be goth, in it's purest, is to be able to think for yourself. Goth represents free thinking and standing up for what you believe in.

Anything and everything else are just add-ons. Because Goth represents free thinkers, people are able to stick anything they want to it and claim it as their own unique idea of the culture.

Goth is simply a freedom to be yourself.

It still exists. As a matter of fact, it's stronger now than it's ever been before in history.



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Indulgence
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14:56:23 Mar 04 2009
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arc -

You were talking about how goth means to be able to "think for yourself". How can that possibly be true? No one these days thinks any different from anyone else.

All those who claim to be "goth" all think the same as all the others who claim it.



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Flamethrower
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15:02:35 Mar 04 2009
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Thinking for yourself does not mean thinking differently from anyone. That's a common misunderstanding. Thinking for yourself means if the president of the United States thinks pulling out of Iraq is right, you can think it's wrong if that's what you think.



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cadrewolf
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16:14:56 Mar 04 2009
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Yet llike i think MBK was stating is free thinking is common with all, yet the interpatation of goth is the same stereo type as, valley girls or cowboys. the dress and language is a similiar view and yet they are free thinking.

but the degrees of goth in onne culture may different from city to city, yet what makes a goth a goth, the feelings inside are they the first emo, and before that the they were the stoners.



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dabbler
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18:12:04 Mar 04 2009
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Flame Thrower, you seem to imply that goth is free thinking, yet then restrain the definition to a narrow absolute. So in a sense you are alluding that Goth is Anti-social "Screw what others think." perhaps being critical to popular beliefs, fashion, and music, and supporting alternative bands (as Bat stated in the Twilight Thread) is a defining element of goth. Some how I find contradiction in your post.



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LordWolf
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wow, sadistic dolly, you found some very interesting stuff there, and i learned some things.

i would like to go way back in the thread to disagree with a comment...
at least some emos actually do refer to themselves as emos.

i find it amusing that some police departments just call them all P.I.B. (people in black). you might hear a radio call, "we have 8 PIBs going into the ally behind off of 6th st."
we have such big arguments over this, yet the outside world just sees people in black. if your not wearing black, your not in the group, if you are wearing black, you could be johnny cash carrying your bible, and your a pib, and prolly a satanist.
yr obt svt
~W~



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dabbler
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21:04:36 Mar 10 2009
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"Man In Black"

Well, you wonder why I always dress in black,
Why you never see bright colors on my back,
And why does my appearance seem to have a somber tone.
Well, there's a reason for the things that I have on.

I wear the black for the poor and the beaten down,
Livin' in the hopeless, hungry side of town,
I wear it for the prisoner who has long paid for his crime,
But is there because he's a victim of the times.

I wear the black for those who never read,
Or listened to the words that Jesus said,
About the road to happiness through love and charity,
Why, you'd think He's talking straight to you and me.

Well, we're doin' mighty fine, I do suppose,
In our streak of lightnin' cars and fancy clothes,
But just so we're reminded of the ones who are held back,
Up front there ought 'a be a Man In Black.

I wear it for the sick and lonely old,
For the reckless ones whose bad trip left them cold,
I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been,
Each week we lose a hundred fine young men.

And, I wear it for the thousands who have died,
Believen' that the Lord was on their side,
I wear it for another hundred thousand who have died,
Believen' that we all were on their side.

Well, there's things that never will be right I know,
And things need changin' everywhere you go,
But 'til we start to make a move to make a few things right,
You'll never see me wear a suit of white.

Ah, I'd love to wear a rainbow every day,
And tell the world that everything's OK,
But I'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back,
'Till things are brighter, I'm the Man In Black.



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dabbler
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21:47:44 Mar 10 2009
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He has a point, he states his reason. How many "goths" just wear black because.. everybody is? How many goths want others to think that they are "True Goth" and that all others are posers?

What is trend goth, and what is Goth? Such a simple question, why is it so hard to answer? I think in part it has to do with simple people, wanting to appear to be complex, and socially shrouded, when in fact they are shallow.



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cadrewolf
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23:20:07 Mar 10 2009
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I knew it was a johnny cash song, but the lyrics depict the plight of those who were black, a dress that fits for any occasion in society. not just for funerals anymore.

Goth and their feelings of life and the society in which they live, my friend lordwolf. Goth is not the only ones that dress in black. But the rest of society does not do the make up or black nails, but dresses on the feelings within.



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LordWolf
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04:08:11 Mar 11 2009
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from an earlier post, about valley girls, cowboys, etc,
i am actually a goth cowboy LOL!

i used to work on a ranch once upon a time, and also used to ride rodeo. some might say this precludes me from being goth....
my response is au contrair! i do quite like johnny cash and toby keith...its on the same mp3 player as my marilyn manson and kidney thieves....
someday someone will steal it, listen and sustain severe brain damage!

always yr obt svt
~W~



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dabbler
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05:03:01 Mar 11 2009
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See that is not cast-out, misfit, that is a fine example if ecclectic personality,
you can identify with a broader range if people. Excluding oneself from social
Interactions with assumed trend can serve only for a sustained time, eventually ones "devotion" to a subculture unravels. To explore through assumed roles and those who delve is not to be berated, it opens a market to the writers, and noirist that craft tales to appeal to such taste.

Without mundane, morbidly curious would shock no one.



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LordWolf
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05:53:58 Mar 11 2009
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so very true...most of the best scary tales begin with very mundane surroundings...
poltergeist was rather creepy when it came out, and its very mundane...till the furniture starts stacking itself.
lol
~W~



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cadrewolf
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15:50:24 Mar 11 2009
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Yet Dabbler, trends are trends some fade into the sunset when other trends come to be. Yet Goth has taken its place in this culture and maybe has evolved from the greasers of the 50"s style fad.

We know that sub cultures do in fact evolve with time or they become lost in the past.

Look at the vampiric movement in society, a fad as you say that has been around for quit some time, I remeber societies or clubs when I was a kid. and are still present today. But become more known when hit vampire titles hit the big screen.

Fads are fads, yet sub-culture trends seem to evolve.



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dabbler
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16:27:48 Mar 11 2009
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Seeking to be Cutting Edge, is a risk of fueling trend, and fad.



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Isis101
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The whole 'goth' trend in fashion in regards to vampires is annoying to me...I mean really...if one really was an advance vampire of age and breeding, would one shop at Hot Topic? No.



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LordWolf
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three ways of looking at that....
a "classic vamp" would dress in a suit...or in leather...or in a hawaiian shirt and shorts if he/she wished.
or,
if the vamp was old, fashion might not be his/her strong suite, and would dress ...somewhat out of kilter with the time.
lastly...the vamp might dress like a victorian or from the 1700s just as a way to laugh at the world and give clues to his/her nature without anyone being the wiser.
~W~



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dabbler
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21:47:17 Mar 14 2009
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Well stated LW. The dictative element is counter to actuality, a person that
Has a signature fashion, that lacks pastels, and perhaps neon, can be just as culturally aligned then those that profess to be "Vampire Goth" It summarizes as, Custom, not Costume, If I had two groups of people Male and female 4 in each group, I know how I would "divine" out the goth.

So I ask? What criteria do you assess people professing Goth as their subculture?



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airwitch08
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22:13:30 Mar 14 2009
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I believe that goth is nothing more than a fashion trend these days. Especially in my area, people tend to dress in a gothic apparell and say they are gothic and pepole believe it is worshiping the devil....Silly Pennsylvanians =P



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dabbler
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By goth being reluctant to represent, it propagates the commercial generic usurption of the influence Goth Subculture If goth seeks to be socially exclusive, then generic goth is culturally curious, healthy, but potentially embarrasing to Goth Society.



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LivNdedGirl
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for me goth is being me standing up for what i believe in and being strong dressing dark according to my mood ...i wear what i want i have an extensive wig collection and many make up styles and my music ranges from classical to what ever punk / heavy metal the works just going out haven fun and trying to feel alive sometimes i will hang in cemetarys ...i hate most people cause they are always usen me as a taxi and hotel and bank ... iam a total free spirit and to me iam goth



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PrettyBoi
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03:25:58 Mar 17 2009
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These days no one really takes on the "true" goth. They just like the idea of dressing up and posing as a goth.

If you want to know the real goths... Look back a couple of decades... You'll find them there.



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levi
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first noticed a goth, as kid back in 80 decade.She wore all black and her face was as pale as death, not because she wore make up, but because she was reclusive, saw no sun and had a bad diet. In her eyes she held a madness which is special to those who neither identify with nor give a fuck about modern society.These type of goths were few and far between. Maybe vampire is a natural progression. Anyway,guess you cant box individuality.



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cadrewolf
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17:13:18 Mar 17 2009
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What when you seen glam rock dabbler or the end of disco.

Descriptions of cloths and life style is said to be goth, yet different cultures have the same style and are gonne by different names. So degrees of goth is unlimited. depending on the individual.



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dabbler
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21:56:38 Mar 17 2009
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I think the selective Society,being critical and shunning popular religionous practices, design, and artistic pomp.



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cadrewolf
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But it is racism with the society, Not the norm. if it is not the way society acts or think than they are put in groups

Fashion, ideas logical as the seem , differ from town to town, and yet are still classified within these realms. Goth, punk, you name it.



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Euterpe
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I think what you are or maybe gothic or otherwise really originates from a persons own head. In any case gothic is simply a label society uses to catagorize that which they don't understand. Everyone is or can be exactly what they want to be. It's exactly like the "normal" arguement. What is normal? Well then, what is gothic I ask you? It is a form or architecture they used a long time ago. I find it insulting to be compared to a building personally. Especially if it's based on what I wear. I wear what I want to and if someone doesn't like it, well that is their own opinion and if their opinion differs from mine then thats probably why I'm not friends with them. Whatever you are, gothic, preppy, jockular, skater, emo.... it's never about what you wear. It's about the way you are and if every person could just stop slapping labels on someone who is even a little different from them this country would be easier to live in.

Honestly, tell me how stereotyping is any different from more controversial problems such as racism.



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dabbler
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01:06:20 Mar 18 2009
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People assume that all who wear black are goth, visa' versa as well. As stated above.



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Chiropteran
Chiropteran

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19:44:50 Mar 19 2009
Read 920 times

I remember goth sub culture, I even was a part of it.
There was even a thing called death punk. I do not think that goth as I knew it even exists any more.
When I heard of the EMO, I was, "wow where and when did you guys plop in? Are you goth are you death punk?
are you death metal?" Or as we call it here in California,
Modern Gothic. I often wonder where did all my little goth friends go, after all, it has been at least 20 years since I seen real goth.:)



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