The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

What persons, or such represent the Goth Genere?

What icons have been misinterpreted as representing the Goth Genere?

Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, or Nick Cave from when Goth was actually alive. There are none now, though, since Goth is dead.

how long has goth been dead

Whenever the 90's started. Now we just are stuck with people who think wearing black makes you goff.

wow...im certainly glad you let us know. i need to let all my friends know to stop wearing goth fashion, listening to goth music, etc.

always good to have someone tell everyone else when a genre, a fashion, etc is dead.

personally i think its a living breathing thing. new music is made all time, gothic fashion magazines get new readers.

personally if you want to just go off and listen to barry manilow and gripe because its not 1984, thats fine with me, but its just amusing when you tell us that the music we listen to is dead, or the culture is gone.
lol

ive been told rock and roll is dead as well....but rumours of its death, also have been exaggerated.
~W~

perhaps the goth is making a comeback

I don't think the topic is whether goth is dead or not.

Different generations have a different interpretation of what a genre is. Maybe your interpretation is dead but, it may live on through others.

No the original goth genre is dead. Just because people wear and listen to things with a semblance of goth or calls it goth doesn't make it actual goth. Apart from a few the vast majority of "goths" today aren't part of the original sub-culture but are part of something else, it's own goth-esqu sub culture.

Besides how could you take an active role in a culture/genre when the vast majority of "neo-goths" a) wasn't even born when it came out and b) has no clue of it's own history?

Well, I guess Rock 'N Roll is dead too then. Because, no one plays it like Buddy Holly anymore.

Sorry but, I thought that was a terrible explanation of why you think goth is dead.

My answer:
Helena Bonham Carter is the ultimate misrepresentation of Goth.

discuss.

LordWolf-

Your whole statement is silly. Labels are not living things. They're just that, labels fit to describe a certain group of people. It just so happens the certain group of people who fit under the term Goth ain't around anymore. Just fools who think they are.

Also, Goth. What the fuck? Germanic tribe my ass.

why a misrepresentation tho?

(one of my fav actresses...so yummy and dark)


her hubby is pretty "goth". i think it depends on your definition of "goth".

i guess im not what you mean by a "misrepresentation" of goth. how might it be misrepresented?
~W~

I was around when goth started - fell in love with it immediately. Scared the crap out of my mom for awhile, but she later realized that I was the same harmless odd-ball I've always been...
Speaking of goth music-wise, I agree that Bauhaus, and Siouxsie and the Banshees (my faves) were there at the beginning. Another early group that was a fave was Joy Division - they were really dark...unfortunately so dark that the lead singer committed suicide. I could go on, but I'll not start a long list here. Basically, the earliest goth bands are all icons in one way or another.
(They were also the forunners in goth fashion, of course. They were actually a lot more creative fashion-wise than the look-alike drones of today).

I think Type-O-Negative is a good example of Goth.

In a sense, goth is dead. Newer versions of it still exist, such as the Marilyn Manson scene, Type-O-Negative scene, etc.

I remember the old goth when things weren't so, shall I say... Depressing. It was never about the clothing style, the trendy fashions or what ever, the attitude, ect. It was never about rebellion... It was never about "fitting in." It was just about being who you are when no one else really cared about what you looked like.

Goth icons weren't nessessarily musicians, that is just a stereotype. Icons to me were novelists and poets such as Poe, Shakespeare, Voltaire. Just to name a select few.

Unfortuntately this subject could be taken out of context just by a few wrong names, or a few wrong words or phrases.

I still think people tend to worry to much about what others think of them these days, rather then what the next day may bring them.

The ultimate goth icon is Roz Willians of Christian Death.

SoulShroude

Isn't that the nature of a thing, that it grows, evolves?

Many people here are saying "goth is dead." But, isn't the real truth of the matter, that it has grown and evolved?

Maybe, goth has just outgrown the old stereotypes.

So, certain bands don't exist anymore and certain people are dead. John Lennon is dead and the love for peace and equality hasn't died just grown and evolved.

Isn't that what so many preach here on VR, how something can die but, live on through evolving and those who still love it?

I thought so many here had open minds.

I guess not.

If your idea of growth and evolution of the "goth" phenomenon are a crap load of depressed and anti-social teeny boppers trying to fit into a society that they claim does not want them, then go ahead and follow that trend.

But to me, that idea is ass backwards. Goth was never about any of that. It was always about standing up for what you believe in, regardless of who tries to keep you down.

It has not evolutionized, or grown at all. It has turned trendy and fashionable. EMO if you will. The next classification or stereotype is what we see in the newer generation pretending to be what "goth" was. But failing miserably.

Oh, I agree with that.

I don't like all the whiney cry-baby crap. Or the "I shop at Hot Topic therefore, I'm goth."

I wasn't referring to that.

It is Good to read a few literary icons here, when I first saw goth fashion it was via a penthouse layout, I then sought out Victorian fashion, I learned that back in Mary Shellys' time woman wore " funeral garb" in " mourning of the " death of society culture". My interst expanded into 50s psycobilly styles.

Victorian Goth Fashion still appeals to me. But I can easily spot a costumed individual, as opposed to a custom attired person, strip a Goth acolyte bare, and she/he will still represent Goth as I was introduced to goth; Circa 85'

An evident icon of fashion was antique formal wear, often worn with flouris personalization.

Not to start an arguement here SoulShroud but...

"It was always about standing up for what you believe in, regardless of who tries to keep you down."

Are you saying that people like this don't exist anymore?

Sorry, but I don't consider myself goth (never have) and I DO fit into this catagory.

So wouldn't saying "Goth is alive and well because it's grown and evolved" the same as saying "Baroque music (1600-1780) is alive and well because I like it, I can hear it on the radio, I can buy Cd's, books etc and because it evolved into Classical and then later a strong influence into the development of several modern styles?

I don't think so.

One of the authors who helped re-imagine the vampire (to how it appears today in pop culture) would be Poppy Z. Brite, during the early 90s. Granted he isn't exactly an icon per say but a lot of the characterizations he gave the vampire seems completely normal and natural today.

Well then, I guess it's so. Simply because you say so.

What people seem to think here is, that something is dead simply because they "say so."

Thank you but, I'll NOT take your word for it.

LordWolf-

Your whole statement is silly. Labels are not living things. They're just that, labels fit to describe a certain group of people. It just so happens the certain group of people who fit under the term Goth ain't around anymore. Just fools who think they are.

Also, Goth. What the fuck? Germanic tribe my ass.



my whole statement is silly....ok...we could call names or discuss the idea. i usually think once one descends into calling things silly or other names, that one has lost the argument. i wasnt even attempting to argue...i was just stating my view.

so goth isnt about fashion (we seem to share similar fashion taste dabbler), or about music style, or ...

well, what is it about? standing up for what you believe?
then how is that different from country music or gangsta rap?
both have cultures...or are they dead too? no way to tell unless we have some erudite individual to let us know its dead.
for that matter how do i know im not dead? i cant be sure if no one has told me after all.

is big band dead? new songs are written and played.
glenn miller is dead, but others took his place.
did rock die with elvis (or when paul mccartney was replaced by a lookalike back in the 60s)?

perhaps what you think of as goth isnt what i think of as goth. i never dyed my hair black or let myself become angst ridden, but ive considered myself goth since the 80s...
and i still am.

im also rather baroque at times.

and yes...what about the germanic tribes? i used to have a cartoon that showed rome burning, and two warriors looking over it. one of them looks at the other and says this is just so depressing. i think im going to just go home, wear all black and get as pale as possible. the title was the birth of the modern goths.
i thought it was cute at the time.
~W~

If Goth is dead, then so am I, and dozens of my friends. I believe that puts Cancer in the ground as well. Some people consider it to be anything dark, mysterious, heavy, as in music perhaps, which is part of the way I see it. I myself am old school Goth, for lack of a better expression, and the evolution of Goth over the years (and I'm not referring to emo) has been a pleasent one, at least as far as I'm concerned; perhaps it is not what some would consider Goth, but it's what I consider that matters to me personally. Before the term "heavy metal" popped up, they called it rock, for lack of a better expression. If we were to get technical about Dabblers' question, we could say that Alice Cooper is an icon of Goth...or Vincent Price; he was always playing some dark role or another, medieval included. Perhaps part of Dabs' question should have been "What do you consider Goth" as well as "Who do you consider a Goth icon".

Saying something is dead just because it has evolved and changed into something different doesn't make much sense to me really. Fashion, music, personalities, etc. have been ever changing since the beginning of time; maybe some of those changes aren't to everyone's liking but it doesn't change the fact that it's different than it used to be. Does that mean that Goth today is anything less than Goth from the 80's? No. It just means it's different.

This subject has always sparked interesting debate. Only a select few (25 out of 100) in the world actually know and remember what the term "goth" ment aside from all the tacky horse crap that spews around from the stereotypical sense of the word.

"Sorry, but I don't consider myself goth (never have) and I DO fit into this catagory."

My point is, goth was never a trend. It was a way of life. A way of thinking. As ~Dab~ has already pointed out, the old Victorian "funeral garb" for the social norm turned into the 80's goth-esque statement that became what goth has "evolved" into. Hell, back in the 70's if one were not hippified then they may have considered you goth if the fashion sense did not fit with the time period.

In the 90's, to be a rocker was considered "goth" if the appeal fit the social standard. By appeal, the style was long hair; clothing that did not fit into the social protocol such as coloured or dyed hair, any style era clothing that did not correspond with the 20th Century or that made heads turn.

Goth could really be defined by anything that was not of the social norm really. Hell, writing poetry could have been considered as goth to some, while tea drinking was to others. It has changed so much over the years that it really has turned trendy. Which is why most would say that the true sense of the term was lost over time, and therefore dead.

But, where did the term originate and I don't mean from the "Visa-goth" standpoint either. Who decided that goth was "goth"?

I get the impression that Goth phased when it went mainstream, thus subjecting goth to interpretation, and trend graft.

Alice Cooper.. I follow that reasoning..

Goth is not only a way of thinking but a way of being too. It's a way of life for some that embrace it completely.

The new generation of Goth people are a little more different then the old one. By old one I mean, age between 35 and 75. Many of you, called yourself goth, but, are you really following this road because is cool, or because you are genuine?

Ya know what I say.

Screw labels, be what you wanna be, and live how you wanna live.


F*** what other people think. Keep your beliefs and your views dont adapt to others unless thats truely how you view it.

Everything that y'all are saying is purely your own opinion.

Is goth dead? I don't think so.

But was any culture ever truely "alive"?

I would like to add the cramps to the list also.

I think anyone can be part of something even if it was in the early 80's, the recordings sound better on cd's and mp3's so why not, i think it's a great that the scene can live on through new generations.

for classic icon: rozz williams, boyd rice and lydia lunch
misrepresented: (this is just my view and feelings here and i really don't feel that they are goth at all) manson, HIM, and nine inch nails.

i know that i'm going to rattle a few cages with that, but it's just my point of view of it.

The european music scene is where alot of gothic icons in my opinion still live on, the mainstream is a bunch of BS.

Chris Pohl - Blutengel..

I agree totally with thebatt, there are many bands out there who try to fit the stereotype just to make a buck.

SoulShroude, excellent point. Many people (though they are few and far between) do fit the "old style" thinking when it comes to goth. I do understand what you mean though, when you say it's dead.

Rob Zombie?

i think one of the fathers of goth would have been alice cooper. his work was the first im aware of to regularly incorporate dark supernatural elements (as well as other items such as canabalism, and necrophilia). this is part of what i consider goth. if you dont, thats fine ofcoarse. goth can be almost anything.

i dont really put hello kitty or the power puff girls into the catagory tho.
lol
~W~

yeah, alice would be one of the forefathers of goth. as well as the damned. most people don't realize it but they are the point that music historians say is the start of goth and punk and where the two types of music branched.

yup...love the damned.
after them was bauhaus


lets not forget sisters of mercy either.
~W~

Would Doc Martins be an element of goth? what other clothing labels would be synonomous with Goth fashion?

i always thought that docs where more punk than goth.

but the goth labels that i know of would be: ipso, lip service, vex, rubberlicious (but they are also fetish and burner clothing), and blue-moon

What is Burner?

never got into doc martins...just seemed like combat boots to me...just not as well made lol.

am i gauche because i prefer english riding boots to combat style boots?

~W~

a burner is someone that goes to burning man

Misrepresentations: Marilyn Manson

I love his music, but he is probably one of the biggest icons that people refer to as 'goth'

He may have his own goth-esque ways but.....ugh. not goth in my opinion.


the goth subculture has changed over the years, that I can say for sure. fashion wise many are starting to all look the same, and its sad.
people really just need to think for themselves and be who they are, and not try to 'fit in'
but, i feel its like this not only in the goth subculture, but many others as well.


also, the term 'goth' or 'gothic' goes back way past the the recent decades in which people say goth was started.
the original term was for a germanic tribe that eventually split into two tribes: the Visigoths & Ostrogoths.

and then remember the time when 'gothic' architecture emerged. with the pointed arches and the first emergence of stained glass in cathedrals. i've studied my history and art history.

the term 'goth' nowadays refers to the entire subculture that has really emerged from musical influences and has evolved over time into what it is today.

Goth as I learned means Drab, seeking not to impress.

When during the second world war females who were in morning wore black, this was custom funeral garb, and it was rude to approace such mourning frmsles, Women of Parlor Society ( those that shunned proper mannerisms, and current popular culture) seeking to avoid encounters with
with males, and an excuse to avoid social engagement, Dressed in black, but
underneath.. Whachickie wow.. a secret revelation..
I actually had a card collection of antique photos of " Parlor Antics".

I think Abby on NCIS makes a good goth icon especially since in some ways she doesn't fit the stereotype of a goth

For me the ultimate Goth Icon in the Uk was The Cure....Mmm but it was not...Tfs.

from what i know goth was an art not a style of fashion

-Aracon

Goth is not only a way of thinking but a way of being too. It's a way of life for some that embrace it completely.


I agree with this, as long as there are those of us out there who still look, act, feel, dress, enjoy music and so on..in this way, Then GOTH IS NOT DEAD.

Now, I do think Marilyn Manson is probably a good and famous representation of goth culture, but I personally think he's a big fake and a joke. There's a couple of his songs that I can even stand to listen to once in a blue blue moon. Getting drugged up and putting on latex doesn't make you goth, but nice try. I know that will upset most of the people on here, but I think all he really did was find a way to rebel against his parents. He did it very fell and it became profitable so of course he embraced it.

To some one who doesn't know that much or anything at all about Goth, I would say Marilyn Manson is a pretty good example. But, to those of us who know, we're standing back....pointing and laughing at him.

Yes, Nerothesable. If you Google Gothic, several of the results will be of Art and Architecture. But "being goth" refers to music preference and clothing style. and it's not all black and white, there's very gray lines that that you can be goth and some what punk, or emo(sigh), or raver, or Victorian, steampunk, cyberpunk.....
Really it's like nationalities any more. Unless you're 100%, you're a mutt, lol.

Anyone gonna weigh in on Rob Zombie?

Personally, I don't think he's goth at all. I think he is just in a class all his own.

I would so fall head over heels for Barnebas Cross from the 1990's Dark Shadows, ooooooooh!.

Rob Zombie is a mutt, he's got strong roots for goth though, lol. Maybe like 1/4 goth.

It appears that some are rather perturbed at Contemparary Goth.

If Mar. Man. is not Goth, then he could simply be influenced by goth.

What is the obsession with "owning" goth?

I read more on what is not Goth, then what is goth.

Goth evolved, so I ask.. Was goth represented in the 60s?.. 70s.. 80s

The Cure.. Modern Alternative, or goth?

There are a few posters here who have caught the jest of this thread, and an underlying questioni had is being displayed here.

being Goth, for me, is seeing beauty, and its coming destruction, at the same time. For me...It's the last dance as the walls are crumbling around you.Goth is the ability to find the art where art seems to be lacking; to find the light in the darkness and embrace it for all its worth..The original 'Goths' were a Germanic tribe who were at their most violent
and maurauding at the time the Roman Empire fell. They had their own
language and religion but had very little to do with post-punk posing.
The current goth subculture started in the United Kingdom as Goth rock in the late 1970 - 1980's after the punk scene. Goth began as a separate movement in 1981 with alternative rock bands like Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy and Bauhaus.

I do not think that Goth is dead. I think there are just more interpretationsof it. Everything evolves even fashion.

A sub culture is not dead if there are people interested enough to keep it alive.

As for Gothic Icons, Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy and others mentioned already.

Misinterpreted: Evanescence, and many other 'new' bands.

no one... goth icons are we serious...come one whats the dif

between a goth icon and a pop icon....besides style and

genre....i say goth is not what u wear, not what u listen to,

not ur fetishes, not ur f***Ing eyliner.. i say goth is a state

of mind , finding beauty where most only find greif, sorrow

and destruction. u ask who is a goth icon.... i say we are...not

r media, not r social networks, not are bloody rock stars.

with out us they are nothing...

"Finding beauty where most only find greif, sorrow
and destruction."

As well as amusement and entertainment. Funerals ROCK!

Where would the icons be without us? A good answer would be, no where fast. It is all about commercialization, commerce of the masses. We all have to live off of others somehow. Might as well make the millions while we can.

yup yup hell if i could make millions too i would, i would not

want to be considered an icon...just me making money doing

what i like... but as far as icons give me a break...but we

start accepting people as a icon then, where no better then

then the thing we despise, black eye peas , lavigne.

i for one want to be me if u consider me goth ok if not fine

too, but i am me, this is my identity, and icons do not define

our culture, not sure about every one else but i dont need no

mascot.

I have no identity save for what society has given me through stereotyping, profiling and birth right. I am a none conformist, but in all definitions and sematics of the word conformist.. We are all conforming to be something. Even not conforming is still conforming so its a loose, loose situation in the long run.

That was very well put and i have to completely concur with

that point... I think i heard about ur house through vvc,

awhile ago, but i could be mistaken. good luck with your

endeavers, maybe we shall meet again though i doubt it.

I always think of Bauhaus, The Cure, Alice Cooper...etc when picturing goth icons....I mean there are more recent ones..but these are for me the earlier ones....

In terms of music everything after the 80s is industrial, not Goth and everything after the 90s is Emo, not Goth.

but why is that little black kitten? it seems like saying that every band after elvis wasnt rock n roll.
~W~

i beg to differ as well littleblackkitten.
there is a lot of goth bands that are coming out even now.

My opion is a lot of so called Goths are just that. Just using the name to get a reputation. Not everyone that calls themselves Goth are really Goth, I not bagging out the Goth it happens in all society, 'this looks good, I am one''

If you believe you're goth, then say it, live it and don't let ANYONE tell you different.

It doesn't matter what music you listen to or what clothes you wear.

Strip us all naked and you wouldn't be able to tell anything but race and gender.

Those of you who believe it's dead, it's dead for YOU and YOU only.

Those of us who love it, it's alive and well. Don't like it? Too bad!

AB,

Stripping a person whether Goth, Punk, or Metal Head is an indicator of their essence relative to their subcultere.

I would add to Goth Icons Liz Vicious, for those who know.

An odd experience I once had,

I was intimate with a Punk female, and part of the appeal was her apparal, yet as she disrobbed, she was wearing Care Bear Panties.. to me that kicked things up a notch.

The very difference between Custom, and Costume.

Trendsters as I mentioned declare themselves "Goth", Punk, Stoner.. etc.. it comes down to what peer influence is dominate at the time.

When people declare themselves absolute representation, they become jaded, and or elitist.

Punk, is not "dead", it has been adopted as a fashion.. but Punks still exist.

Goth came out.

In a few post here, some demonstrate pretenses for dressing drab, and edgy.. 'people are scared of me'

I sense that they once attempted to " fit in" but people made fun of them.
So they dress edgy, and project themselves as socially deviant, they may even declare themselves persicuted, but is it really because of their appearance?

Is goth about repulsing " normal people".

Could some trendsters want " Goth" to be rejected, so they can be " misunderstood"?

Have trendsters represented Goth, so unchallenged by the subculture, that
the highjacking cemented the mainstream definition?

Not all who declare themselves Goth, Punk, ect. Are embraced by subcultere sociaty. I understand why. Phishers can taint' any Subculture when they feel that, " You have to accept me as one if you."
But when that is clearly not the case, they act out stereotypes in the presence of impressionable peers, and perpetuate said stereotypical behaviour. ( note this is not limited to the Goth Subculture.)

The key point to my statement was...be yourself. If you have a label that you like to put on yourself then, wear it proudly and don't listen to what people want you to believe about yourself. After all, who knows you better than you?

I personally am not goth, never claimed to be. I am my own "subculture" (yet, just another useless label) and there's only one member...ME!

Straight speaking AB,

It says a lot about individuals that want to be validated for their person.

I cut that off prematurely,
individuals that adopt trends, under the auspice of Cultural identity do so for the wrong reasons. Cults exploit people with such mentalities. Joiners.. often with gratuitous intent.

My point is that genres of music are usually categorized by decades. Of course there are still bands producing what I would call Goth music but speaking in historical terms; the 50s was Rock, 60s Psychedelic, 70s Disco, 80s was New Wave, 90s was Rap. As for sub-genres; the 70s was Punk, 80s was Goth, 90s was Industrial and the 2000s is Emo. Now before anyone corrects me I know that Goth actually began in the late 70s with the Batcave, blah blah blah ... but it wasn't until the 80s that it became well known because of bands such as Siouxsie & The Banshees etc. Naturally, most people would agree that Goth was never mainstream and I personally consider it to be the darker cousin of the New Romantic movement. Finally I don't think anyone can separate Goth from the music and say that it's a state of mind or whatever. Being Goth is directly related to the music before any other links with Poe or Shelley, Witchcraft, vampires etc. So if you are looking for Goth icons look to the music because that's where they are.

Black kitten,

Well Stated.

I would be curious about what influenced bands like Sixuis ( sp),




g

little black kitten....
the 60s also had some mighty find rock n roll

alot of non psychedelic during that period.

the 70s was disco? i dont consider bob seger, the eagles, led zepplin, pink floyd, etc etc to be disco.

sometimes we paint with too broad a brush.


and arsenicbiohazard...you said
"Strip us all naked and you wouldn't be able to tell anything but race and gender."

right in the middle of a discussion, you managed to completely distract me! lol
~W~

Thanks dabbler ... The band Siouxsie & The Banshees was directly influenced by Punk as were many New Wave bands. Billy Idol and Generation X, Adam and the Ants, Gary Numan with Tubeway Army,etc. Somewhere along the line came Goth, the darker version of the New Romantics (in my opinion). Regardless, I don't think anyone who really knows music would deny that Goth's roots are Punk.

I can see that connection. New Romantic, I am off to google search that.

Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, or Nick Cave from when Goth was actually alive. There are none now, though, since Goth is dead.


it is dead



Whenever the 90's started. Now we just are stuck with people who think wearing black makes you goff.

and if by 90's you mean 90-1190ad then yes right again

Good point the first true goth died long ago. But can it not be true to that it may be makeing a comeback. The origional that is just mixed in with what they think it is in the moderen days. Somethings have not changed but in the eyes of some they defined it as something completly out of porportion as in how they dress.

To me goth is not a trend at all it is more of an ideal. and that ideal changes as each and every one of us grows. and as we grow our views on that ideal evlove in to either a mature aspect of our selves or it becomes as some have said a by gone era of ones life. To twist an ideal just because a certain person who started that ideal is like saying the United States of America has died as the founding fathers of our nation have long since been dead.

I could be wrong on all of this but this is my opinion.

littleblackkitten hit the nail on the head...!
The few icons she mentioned did indeed get their start in Punk, and from Punk came New Wave/New Romantics...and Goth sprang from that.
I was around at the beginning, when all of this stuff was going on - LOL!

Most of these movements stem from teenage interests related to music at the time. People get older and hang onto things. A general philosophy of life seems to have evolved from that time and newer generations of people with similar views still exist. Everything changes over time. Most of these movements are creative in the sense of make-up styles, clothing and just general demeaner. You can call them neo goths because they didn't live during the time the goth movement started but that is a little petty to me. I'm from Cali so they had Death Rockers out here. I was way too old at the time to really be interested in any of the music or anything else. In the 70s, I was working for a PR company and that was not the type of music I was being given by the promoters. There was some punk but it was in its beginnings. I had my run in with the Ramones but that is another topic.

People still go around calling some folks hippies. I could easily say there are no hippies anymore. They are all my age, hahaha. I was 18 in 1965, and the hippy thing was promoted by the media. They were few actually, if you consider the real numbers, but those that existed made a big impact on dress, music and viewpoints. There were many who identified as hippies but in all actuality they really weren't. Painting your van in day glow colors and growing long hair, didn't make one a hippy. I would guess this is the feeling of some older people that wearing black and listening to certain types of music doesn't make one goth. This is all moot in a way because things carry over. Look at how many still say "cool" which came out of the beat generation (50s). Things just change and evolve from the original and the icons associated. Hardcore people just have to live with it whether they like it or not, lol.

By the way, Poppy Z. Brite is a female.

i saw a nude photo of poppy...so i second that ...

definitely a female.
LOL
~W~

As i have said earlier Goth is a mind set, a certain set of ideals that spawn the persona of a person. may it be a way they dress or the way they act, what ever it is that person claims to be who is it to us to say one is not this nor that the topic or the trend what ever you want to call is different from person to person.

the simple fact of the matter is this, who are we to label or say what some ones beliefs are wrong. becasue of people saying that this is not right or it is wrong, it is from this very principal that spawned the witch hunts in the early US and in the UK.

the only person that can say that ones beliefs are wrong is the person who has those beliefs no one else. so for many of you to say that some of these young teens and young adults are EMO or what have you is well in ways an insult to many of the very ideals that so many subcultures hold high above the main stream.

ObsidianFury calls it right I feel, it's a mindset; much like there can be true heads, who have never touched pot in their lives.. in essence, "you are who and what you are".. and, neither fashion nor peer pressure will dampen that.

That said, of course there are wannabee's.. there alway's are.

and that is true as well. there will always be wanna be's out there who will pretend they are what they are. Goth as i have said is not about what you wear or what you listen to. it comes down to the mind set and the ideals one holds that dictate's the rest of the persona of a person.

Escape the fate, Avril Lavigne, Evanescence, and many other music groups could very well be considered "icons"

However the true goths are those who, as was said, have a slightly different or twisted mind than most of society.
It has become a fashion statement in society, though. There are stores to buy "gothic" styles.

An underlying curiousity has been satisfied, I may just be starting a poll..

Basically, I am noting what has not been mentioned in relation to Goth.

As it appears.

Would you all say to done degree that Goth is the .. "Sympathetic" kin of Punk.. punk being .. "Oui the establishment!" Goth being .."..."?

"Blah, the establishment." ?

GOTH! hmmmmm are we talking like goth n roll or traditional goth, theres a huge difference. Traditional goth : classical music, castles, old cemetaries, all things old and exquisite (hard to explain what i mean)
Goth n roll : combination of punk and goth which personally i tend to think of as more punk.

Re: ~Demonic~

"GOTH! hmmmmm are we talking like goth n roll or traditional goth, theres a huge difference.

Traditional goth : classical music, castles, old cemetaries, all things old and exquisite (hard to explain what i mean)

Goth n roll : combination of punk and goth which personally i tend to think of as more punk."

Thank you! This is what I have been trying to clarify throughout this entire thread. About time someone starts thinking!

Well my poll demonstrated my hypothosis.

It is pretty much unanimous that Goth is not synonomous with belief in the occult. So my question is how do the 4 people who reply Yes, get the impression that it is?

Is Goth Synonomous with belief in the occult?


Yes 7 12.73 %
No 48 87.27 %

So, I wonder why so many apparent trendsters always invoke the "I believe in the Occult , so I am Goth."

i think that im more of a combo. i love the music, but i love classical, castles, victorian attair, etc.

i think that the differentiation (goth n roll, traditional) finally makes this thread make more sense to me.
~W~

I would say I am traditional goth, as posted by someone a few posts ahead of me, which I can't recall the name now, sorry.

I think most it seems are rock goth.

Hell, I used to dress in black in the 80s when I was in school. Back then it was a bohemian thing, a rebellion yes, but also artsy and different...an individual.

Now it's "skinny jeans (which were just jeans in the 70s and 80s) and 30 seconds to mars goth". Ha.

When I hear Goth the first thing comes to my mind is the art and buildings not music fashion etc

Alice Cooper I consider one of the bands that started what we know today to be hard rock, hair bands of the 80s, some might say heavy metal even though he started out in the late 60s around 68 or 69 if my memory has not faulted me been a fan of his since 1970 at the age 5 and still a large fan of his music never once in any interview read or seen has he mentioned that his music is Goth

Marilyn Manson is the biggest misrepresentation of goth there is

Whenever I hear "goth" I don't think of a person...I think of the architecture.

I love gothic architecture, I want my own castle

Yeah me also...
I just think of old buildings, style of dress, and art...
I think goth is an art form... and can't really go out
of "fashion"...

Just because the likes of Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails were labeled as goth and gave society that distorted perception on the genre, doesn't mean the actual genre is dead. In fact, just check out a good compilation the likes of Cleopatra Records' 'Goth Box' and you'll find a great collection of newer bands playing classic goth music. The only reason some people think goth is dead is because the bands that still play it do not get the mainstream recognition their precursors might have. MallGoths may have given us a bad reputation, but the goth genre lives on in its musicians, and in the hearts and minds of those who know where the subculture came from and where it's going.

That is becoming clear Vinzet,

that Goth is beneath mainstream, and those who breach the surface are trendsters. Goth 'dies" when exposed to muggles.

Thus, goth is not costume, but custom.

Goth is what happens in select company.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.