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I think you have all come to understand that with as many covens as VR has, if everyone puts out an ad for their coven, any other advertisement becomes buried.

My greatest criticism with the posting of coven advertisements is that no matter how many times Dominars and various Coven staff members ASK POLITELY, their threads are almost immediately over-run with "good luck" bs posts.

I tried the idea of making recruitment threads sticky and moderated, but I have realized this wont work because we would have a solid wall of recruitment threads.

What is a fair way of regulating this? I do agree that the recruitments are valid to VR. Dont you think people know you are recruiting, or can at least assume you are? Should recruitment threads only be allowed up for a week at a time? For now, in an attempt to be fair, I am leaving open only those advertisements that are a week old or less.

I am soliciting intelligent opinions that will both be fair to VR members and Coven masters, yet at the same time clean this section up and significantly reduce the workload of Dominars. What say you VR?

I agree that societies looking for new members is suitable for the Mascara section of the Main Forums and that a week is plenty of time. I would suggest that only so many per week be allowed so to allow other threads that fit the category remain viable also. There is also the need for the societies to “take turns” with their threads since there are so many all cannot list at once or it’s ridiculous. Also for one society to try and stay listed week after week, would be wrong in my opinion.

As far as the bs posts of good luck and such there is only a very harsh way of stopping it that I see, and that’s to suspend the posting rights of those who post to one, after placing a warning of what will happen in the thread itself. The dominar’s cannot monitor them constantly for what other enjoyment of the site would that leave for them so I think once word got round members would stop posting those things.

The reason I do feel the ads are warranted is that some covens/houses are not actively accepting members unless they seek a particular person themselves. If a new person makes the mistake of applying to one of these and gets a harsh response (which we know is possible) it would make them extremely hesitant to try again. This way they can be sure of who is looking before sticking their hand out.

I think that the majority of VR societies are always looking for new members. If someone was truly interested in a specific society they would probably wander over to that societies trades and inductions page and see if they were accepting or not. Call me crazy, but thats what I would do anyway.

I agree with JackofSpades, but there are some people that just don't know where to look when they are about that level.

I personally think that the best way to keep this section of the forum cleaned up is make a thread that is sticky and moderated, have the Coven/House master message a Dominar or such to add their society to the list that is activly recruiting and when they aren't they can ask to be removed.

That way it would save many people from posting good luck and it would also make it easier to see who is recruiting. :)

I think that a week is plenty of time for an ad wanting new members.

I think that everyone on here knows that the Covens and Houses are always looking for individuals to join.

Maybe if the Covens and Houses were only allowed to post an ad once a month for a week would be fair enough as well.

There are so many Covens here that the members should have plenty to choose from.

Abstract: The sticky and moderated thing was something I had considered. I have two thoughts on that. The first is that because the threads don't move, the whole first page and possibly second would become simply standing coven advertisements. The second thought is: isn't a standing list of Coven names in the mascara section the very same thing as a standing list of coven names in the coven section?

I am sensitive to new members being able to and wanting to explore a bit, but is there any sentiment that they should just click on the link that says COVENS and do some exploring?

I say this while giving heed to Nightgame's comment that not all societies ARE advertising and some heads of household might get snippy if they are approached. Pleasing the masses is important, I get that, and societies are a large part of VR. On the other hand, this section is also supposed to be used for individual member announcements, but is being literally drowned by these coven recruitment threads.

I think LadyChordewa has a good idea. It wouldn't fill up the first page of the Masscara Section and it would give the covens a great way to advertise their wants.

Very good post. This is something i have thinked on a very long time. I somehow feel topics like the ones about coven/house seeking members is kinda pointless in the end. The most members in vr know there is covens and houses . Im also sure alot also pm coven/house masters about joining. Better if eash coven or house make a statement on their site instead for the forum.

Seeing as it is just an advertisement for people to be recruited, why don't we just treat them like an advertisement and RIA them.

It cuts down on the forum clutter, they don't need to be archived and they all basically say the same thing anyways.

I just have a couple ideas I thought about while reading this. First off, I completely agree that the personal advertisements are indeed being drowned with recruitment threads. Both my ideas however, do require a bit of expansion. In agreeing with Sevenn that it should be just as easy for a curious member to browse the coven or houses page to find a coven, one idea may be to put a small sign underneath the coven name or graphic stating if it is closed or opened to new members. I agree that the majority of covens/houses wouldn’t have that sign but it could still be an option that the Master of the House could control. This would eliminate the need for advertising.

If there must be a place in the forum for coven advertisements (even if “good luck” is all that is replied in them), then I guess creating a fifth section of the forum would be ideal. And in the section LadyChordewa’s idea could be put into place.

However, both of my ideas require some kind of expansion, and I know that with Cancer working on other things it and would be difficult to do. Just a couple ideas though.

LadyChordewa has it right, one thread. and one thread only that is sticky and moderated that announces the coven actively recruting, limit it to a certain number of covens at a time for one week. that way there are no good luck posts and such. covens only need to notify the dominar in charge of it that they would like to be added and there you have it. no taking up the entire page of the section.

thats my opinion anyway

coven recruitment ads - moderated so that people can't add to them - they are there to be read not discussed

other coven ads - such as for my coven magazine - can be added to with comments and such

Craig, yes, I agree with that. Special events, contests, etc. and so forth I am considering differently. I am ONLY meaning to discuss recruitment adverts.

I will have to completely agree with Sevenn on this...All those threads were cluttering the forum...It's not needed..Every Coven does not need to post that they are looking for new members...We automaticly know the new ones are and if a Coven has been arround for a while, they are usually trading anyway....

One thread, stickied, is plenty....It will be nice to see that forum without out all the "Want Ads"...lol....

Also I have to agree with the thought that if a new recruite is looking for a coven, then they are going to research them on their own...I did...There is also that fact that most of the Coven's are Pro on the Forceable Inducting...SA is and I excersise that right...

I also make it a point to state on our Trades And Inductions page that we are either accepting new members or that we are closed to trades and inductions...

I just don't see all the need for the extra and pointless threads that are as I said "The Want Ads".... :)

Thank you Sevenn for doing some house cleaning....Great Job!!....

The coven ads do become consuming. And I say coven ads because i dont really remember seeing ads for the houses.

I like the idea that if you post good luck to a post then u face having your posting priveliges suspended.

I believe the only coven ads that should be allowed should be for new covens announcing that they have started and would be viewable for a week or 2 as a sticky/moderated thread.

Looking through the coven/house lists is still the best way to search out a coven.

Lets also face the fact that with so many covens/houses and forced inductions most members are grabbed before they can choose where they want to go anyway.

well I feel it is up to the Coven and the Members of VR to take it upon themselves to go looking and asking people if thye would like to join their Coven... That way there is no advertisement in the Forums.

We also sometimes grab people and tell them they have 2 wks to decide if they like the coven or not If they want to be sent to another coven etc.. without and favor trades ... I mean if they do not want to be in your coven then why keep them and if we can get them where they want then why not help them out...

Just me and How I see it. I just noticed that there are more Coven Ads then anything really lately.. :(

I am really appreciating all of this input and feedback. Some changes will be made, but I am going to leave the thread open for long enough that I can be assured a fair cross section has had an opportunity to respond and give their own input.

I have to agree with the first thing that WarriorinHell stated about why even have a forum thread about coven advertisements. It really should be up to the people and covens to read and search for members/coven. Otherwise to me, it just seems to be a race for numbers.

A week is long enuf to get a point across.

Similar to the idea that LadyChordewa had, why not have one sticky/moderated thread listing all societies that are looking for members, but list them as links to that societies trades and inductions or recruitment page. The page can be updated by a Dominar after having that society's Master/assistant master forward the Dominar a link to be added.
This would make it easier for lower level members to find what they are looking for in the mascara section and limit the amount of recruitment threads needed. The societies looking for members would need to have information listed on a page within their society to be linked to, but it would save on clutter in the Mascara section.

a sticky thread is fine and moderated, as many mention suspension on those saying: good luck and other similar.

But instead of putting the burden on Dominars and other Admin of lisintg the covens and houses that recruts why not do like LadyChodewas sugested at one thing close, instead of the Dominar listing the covens /houses with description of what type of member seeked. The CM or a ACM of the coven could post 1 post in the thread when recruting. And after 1 week of the post the Dominar could simply delete the post, leaving space for another coven or house to post.

So it will be only 1 thread and it wont be to much filled up since the post will be deleted after 1 week. so it wont get to long

Lets also agree on the 10 coven/houses at the time.

I think that a week is plenty of time to execute a recuiting drive, especially if you do not have a method of handling the BS response threads.

One option would be to only allow CM and ACM of the posting coven to offer updates or responses, rather than leaving them open for any an all to post to.

On the other hand, I love rules and punishment. If you tell people not to post BS, yet they do, you should drop the "Hammer of the Gods" upon them and suspend them or some other meaningful punishment.

HA, Thedog, while your post made me laugh, I have to consider the real implications a change will have. The fact is, if Dominars REALLY dropped a hammer they would be abused non-stop. Now, with Dominars even hinting at being short with members they develop reputations as hard-asses, or jerks. And they pay for it...Dominars are here to enjoy VR as well; they volunteer for a position that pretty much gets them continually abused. So, for me to suggest that Dominars suspend anyone that violated a fairly minor rule would only expose them to abuse. *(best Scotty Star trek accent) "I just can't do it, Captain!"

... or, do force inductions.
No need to advertise. Mwahahahaha.

That was simple. :)

Have all Houses and Covens place a message and/or scroll box, on their Main Society page if they are or not accepting voluntary membership. Everyone is happy and there is no need for posting replies. They all have them.

*Reply sponsored by: The House of Lunazure. Accepting voluntary Household membership. For a limited time only* ;)

i think that one sticky fourm page for all the coven and house masters should be put up.... we submit like an ad a banner a stamp a few word what ever... then anyone can look at what each coven/house has to offer.... i mean yes that means there will be 62 different postings... but then it might eliminate the force induct thing.... or all of the covens and houses could just talk to the people they wanna induct and have the person go take a look at the thread for any more details....

just my two cents .. i know a lot of this was already covered.. but i just had to get it out there..

"Profile, Portfolio, or Journal view requests. Personal advertisements"


Nowhere does it say coven advertisements, or recruiting advertising. Disallow them.

that is a personal advertisement...

if i wanted people in my coven... then i would personally advertise that i am looking.....

if that was the case then when all of people have put up things for other people ... then it should be taken down or dissallowed cause it was not personally started by that person......

am i wrong......

Myself- I say leave the ad out of the forum all together. I mean it’s a Vampire theme site. You might be inducted into a coven that you did not pick, to bad. That is the way the site is set up and part of the rules you read *cough cough* before you created your account. If you reach a level 5 and have not clicked on that little button marked House or Coven under the Societies then you need to be inducted against your will. If you care for the site and want to be part of it- you already know at level five you are a deer in the head lights.

Yes- I see the need for posting for new Covens. A “come see” thread. I see the need for a thread if they are having a contest that is open to members outside of the House or Coven. But the ad’s are not needed. And you are adding more and more work to the Dominars asking them to do this and that for any thread. What happens when the Coven numbers reach a seventy five or a hundred? Yes…let’s make the jobs they do just so much more fun.

A fifth forum thread just for House/Coven ad’s? *shivers* I hope not.

Bottom line- while I know a lot of you see the inductions as evil, it is how the site was site up. Not to have sweet ads of “Come be with us. Share your blood, sweat and tears.” You want new members then post it on the front page of your House/Coven. Hell- put it in flashing lights even. Hard to find good members for your Covens? Maybe its because we have to many of them. I vote no to any House or Coven standing ads.

Personally I like Bones' version of LadyC's idea (I like them both really, but you get my point!).

This could be made sort of like a Job Wanted add of sorts.

Personally I get the feeling that grouping all the house/coven adds into one thread would not go that well. I fear that people would be commenting there coven back & forth, not the master's but the other members. The way it is done now in each coven thread. Unfortunately when you put them all in the same thread. I suspect it would turn into a "mine is better than yours" situation.

I do like BillytheJust idea though. I don't see a huge need for House/Coven to advertise in the forum. My coven has never practiced this option. We still managed to recruit memebers fine without it. Besides at least half the houses/covens force induct now.

A half serious suggestion; How about coven add's in the sandbox? Maybe it could prove useful for once.. J/K.

I think a combination of Chordewa and bones ideas could work, Only there should not be allowed posts in them. an example:

Coven of fallen gladiators looking for members (short descrribtion) if interested contact; XXX XXX XXX

Coven of darkest blood looking for members (short describtion) contact XXX XXX if interested.

Let the members messages CM or ACM if they are interested.

On the other hand, the rules does state that when you reach level 5 you are available for induction, and as Cancer writes;

"If you do not understand the underlying concepts behind forced induction you should not be a member of Vampire Rave."

Why not just keep with that idea? it is short, simple and it is a CM's right to do so, and it would take a little of the burden on the shoulders of the Dominars.

I am mostly pro the first solution, or maybe a combination of both. If members are interested they can message, and if you want a member, you can forcibly induct.

I have a question wouldnt it just be easier just to create another page somewhere in the left hand column that would list all the covens AND list the ones that are looking for members and the ones who arent looking for members. and simply just assign an Admin to keep that page updated on when changes need to made to the page and such?

Darkmoonlord, I'm not trying to be a smart*ss at all when I say this...but there is a link on the left. It is CALLED covens...you click it and you get a whole list of covens, now the idea of whether they are recruiting or not, and how to display that... yep, thats the 64,000 dollar question of the moment.

maybe instead of worying about the bs thank you threads have them posted and locked and if they want to be recruited they can contact the cm or acm for more information on coven/house memberships.
so when a coven/house master makes a recruit thread have it locked and posted as sticky.
being sticky for 1 week is alright i feel.

Although joking when he posted, "A half serious suggestion; How about coven add's in the sandbox? Maybe it could prove useful for once.. J/K." Skjaldepigen, makes a good point!
The Sandbox was originally created as a place for threads that didn't apply to or belong in the other three sections of the Forum. If the recruitment threads are now overrunning the Mascara section and have become a problem, then maybe it's time they're posted in the Sandbox. It wouldn't matter then if they took up the first two pages or matter what was posted to them, they would be closed for length and no longer be the Dominars responsibilty.
This may make the sandbox actually useful for something after all, rather than the mostly useless threads that are found there presently. The threads would probably close quicker because members would be posting random comments to get their post counts up, so they wouldn't be there very long, so societies would need to add or update them regularly, but it no longer becomes the Dominars responsibility other than keeping an eye out for recruitment threads closed by the author with a RIP tag (as is common in the Forum).
Otherwise, as Billy suggested, force induct them! When did we go back to having to ask members to join, again? And, darkmoonlord... As Sevenn pointed out, theres already a link in the left hand margin for covens. Adding another for recruitment threads then makes that page Cancers reponsibility which recruitment into societies shouldn't be, he is the one who would be adding and maintaining that link. It doesn't work (as an idea)!

Perhaps open a thread where level 4 members can announce they are looking to a coven and let the coven masters come there looking for the members, then one thread would serve all covens instead of every coven having a thread posted.

i like that idea. its hard to find level 5 unless you go through every profile. so this would be a great idea. :)

I think that would also create a feeding ground of sorts. I could see some simply camping on that page and inducting anything that comes near.

I like the idea of having a single sticky, moderated thread - no replies - which only the dominars could add recruitment information to.

Say if a master wanted new members, they would contact a dominar or post a masters message about the fact, along with any details. This would then be added to the recruitment thread by a dominar for all to see and none to wish luck to.

One sticky thread won't do much justice, as the newbies have a better chance of finding the Covens/Houses link than this one thread in the entire forum.

Personally, I really don't understand the point to these recruitment threads, especially when most of them are swamped with total bs. The Coven I'm in has never done something like that, and we're doing just fine, WITH newbies and all.

So Coven Masters don't really need or GET "help" by doing this, and newbies can be contacted directly, or even.. -gasp-.. forcibly inducted.

So if these threads are a pain, and the admin is willing to do something to clear this section, then I suggest a banning of this thing alltogether.

I concur bannin them would be an asset and the new people looking for covens or what not to be to their liking..

I agree with Sevenn She has this it the right mind set they do get over ran with Bs and people dont really look into them for joining i know i didnt and i dont know anyone in my coven that joined that way

i like the stick mod thread idea with where we could give a post to a specific admin to post and have no one reply but to keep it out there for all to see...

Does that mean you want this to just be self promoting and if so it is going to be just personal announcement with no other post Right? Isn't that going to affect the forum requirement to level. The general area sticks around but not a lot of new subjects and the sandbox gets destroyed in short order are they going to change the way level is attained?

Actually it won't hurt your forum score at all. This section was made for personal advertisements. Anything in this section gets RIA'd and your post gets deleted no matter what. So having this cleaned up makes it easier on the Dominars in moderating it and others for finding what they are looking for.

The General Discussion is the only section in the forum where you can be pretty sure that your posts won't get deleted if they are on topic.

I really don't think their is a need for a Coven to advertise about wanting members.
Coven Masters have the option of Forced Inductions.
Coven Masters should take the time and search for qualified members if they have a select desire in mind.

You might try a new forum section specifically for society news and recruiting.

I think a whole new section of the forum would just give the dominars even more headaches.

Besides, as stated before, it was never VR's intention to be polite and ask kindly. Of course it helps a little to be on good terms with your coven members.

If I have read correct.

Most Covens have their recruiting/joining policies listed on their front page. The members can advertise that the Coven is searching for members in their profiles.

Really, the advertising is irritating. Put a little more effort into it, go and search for members, form bonds with other societies. Go on vast member hunting missions!

Where is the sportsmanship?

I am saddened by the ease with which someone joins a society. If we were to take the romantic into concideration... it would not be so easy to join a vampire society.

I should think that if one thought one were worthy of the society, that you would be petitioning and doing the social gruntwork nessesary to join the society you wish to join...

Otherwise you will just be inducted the next time someone goes Bushwhacking.

Perhaps I am being eletist so I will just add:

"I sent the club a wire stating,

PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION.
I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB
THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER."

-Groucho Marx

*wink*

Ban all Coven adverts in the forum would be my preference.

In it's place, just as there is a 'Society' message box which is used for members of the same society, if a member is not in a Society, they don't see this message box.

If a new message box was created for non-society members, which only received messages from Societies looking to recruit, with an expiry on them of maybe seven days, then non-affiliated members could know who is looking, be able to be taken directly to the message sender, the forum remains clear and the other message boxes too.

Once a member is inducted into a Society, they no longer receive the recruitment messages.

Thats a pretty good idea STABB. I like the idea of everyone being able to see it because some are always looking to move to another place.

The trade system is already in place for existing society members to be offered to another.

My opinion about the recruitment thread problem (Yeah, my last opinion!)... Eliminiate them altogether! If they're that much of a problem, then forbid them from being posted. Vampire Rave never had recruitment threads until there were more than twenty societies, the threads went from "so and so Coven is now open!", to, "So and so Coven looking for members!" And how many are actually looking for members? Most Covens are more worried about their place in the standings and posting a recruitment thread is a legitimate reason to put out a thread members can use to get their post count up.
Imagine...."Oh no! If I induct a level 5 member, my coven will drop two places in the standings!" If you're really looking for members, you're not looking hard enough! Post one thread (sticky/moderated) telling members to refer to society main pages and subpages that have recruitment information, and then message the Master/Assistant Master of said Society that they're interested in. How dificult can that be? Adding a seperate forum section, a link in the left hand corner, or any other idea that requires additional programming from Cancer, only adds to the amount of work he already has maintaining Vampire Rave and, trying to get other sites up and running by next month! Why not try to use resorces that are already available?
Again... Just my opinion.

Separate section for the societies in the forum area, perhaps?
I like to have a permanent message available so that my coven is in the eye - that is what such advertising is for, really. Some covens may prefer being a closed shop, Bohemians aren't introspective by definition.
I don't think relegating covens to junk mail status achieves anything, except more work for the Big C.

TheHellequin,

The advert threads are essentially spam at present in any case, which generates more pointless responses, which makes more work to manage the forum.

A self-deleting message box ends all of that. Have you an alternative suggestion?

My suggestion is that Coven Masters and their recruiters become less lazy and find more creative ways to advertise their Covens and the fact that they are recruiting.

I like the idea of Stabb for the message system for non members.

Your idea was a good one Stabb, it just means more work for Cancer and really...Societies need to become tougher and mingle a bit more.
Let's form some bonds and some enemies, make this place a bit more interesting.

Since when did Vampires make billboards advertising that they want to turn people, are you joking me?

Get back to basics people.

I think I'm way ahead of you on that...lol

I would have thought that societies would want to be selective on the members that they want to represent them.

I do agree, there should be way more members wandering free on this site because no Society has deemed them worthy.
Members should not just be favor makers, when someone acts like an idiot and wears your Coven crest, it reflects on you.

I agree that the inbox would be nice, as well as just one stick/moderated thread.

Essentially all the recruitment threads have been lately are ways for people to get a quick post and a reason to bitch when their post score goes down because the good luck got deleted.

So either the one thread or none. In the long run it would cut down on people griping about their forum score going down.

i agree also with Lady Chordewa.

1 long Thread and no "good lucks" allowed.

that way the word is "out there", and people can go look on the Coven or Houses Pages to get a feel of what they are like, and then progress by talking to the Sire or ACMS/Trade Masters.

the 1 thread with 10 CM or ACM posting at the time will allow also the viewers to click on the society representation under the one posting to go and view.

This way it cuts out on the work for Dominars and also allows the viewers to go look at both the staff's profile and the coven/house page.

Also 10 at the time will allow a rotation and a way to sort of say what This coven/house in a short intro, personilized message is expecting of the member and offering.

we dont advertise except on our recrutment page of our coven . we got tired of the good luck or the outher covens advertiseing for there own in the threads we put up regardless wether we asked them not to or not. and even though we dont advertise in the my mascara section we do have people that request to join us. i personally dont see a need of advertising week after week if a person is interested in joining your crew they will get intouch with who they need to.

Everyone can agree and bring forth ideas, and this thread will be everlasting. LOL.

We are currently working up a plan for this that will soon be employed. You all are brilliant.

Sevenn is a wise lady full of ideas on how to improve and come up with plans to make things happen. I adore her! =)

♥

maybe you should make a recruiting section where you click a link and it lists what covens are recruiting

All Covens want members like the title says, so no need to advertise in my own opinion, or else RIA them, after all they are just adverts not discussions.

CMs and ACMs are allowed to force induct after all, and if forcible induction is not their policy, they can also search for new members themselves and ask them to join.

Also members who would like to join a Society can always check the Society's section and check their induction method section page.

Anyone can join a Society or recruit if they want to, without any need to advertise, they CAN do it.