The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

The will to believe is not so remarkable as the will to want to believe. A man once said that a religion succeeds not because it is right, but because it suits its worshippers. There seems to be at the basis of Christian religion some perverse and profane desire for cosmic significance, just as a small child desires so dearly for a kind mother so does human kind desire a kind and helpful God. What significance this idea brings is not a single-stringed idea, but a multitude of far reaching points that stretch off into the infinitive of the mind. The idea in and of itself is very ironic that as children humankind desires as much consoling and comforting attention as the older adult comforting the child. After all, the pursuit of holiness gives reason, direction, and purpose to an otherwise lost and confused species that might have to otherwise face an undesirable and unsatisfactory truth.

Holiness in and of itself, as a Christian ideal, is a concept that allies itself with perfection, yet in its very nature proclaims itself above perfection so far as to suggest that perfection is a tool it employs. Religious thinkers, priests, and many of those that study God and his theoretical word quickly become guilty of one of the most common of all mental traps, that is to say that in order to suit one's audience, one must first sell the idea to the audience. Salesmen and clergymen alike must present there wares so as to accentuate that which is most desirable while distracting from the problematic and contradictory. The very entity that so many entrust to handle their immortal souls becomes not the savior but the selling point through which to attract more followers. The peak of humanity following such a train of thought is not on such a mountain, but once again above it. Holiness becomes a transcendental ideal warranting the aspiration of all who hear of it, at least until those that would question the problematic side to this relative truth poison the well of deceptive purity.

The night sky is darkest just before dawn in turn requiring light to be brightest just before darkness settles. An inherent problem immediately leaps out from the thoughts of the attentive regarding the substance of the ideal over its surface. If holiness is indeed to be considered a peak of human existence, then the closer one gets to such holiness the more one is surrounded by that which is not holy. In the earlier stages of human development, children learn by absorbing their surroundings. Such absorption is a basic fundamental tool in all aspects of human society, but one totally unsuited for the idea of holiness. As the purity of the light increases toward that theoretical pinnacle of holiness, the amount of surrounding light diminishes until at the absolute peak there is but one point of light surrounded by darkness. To continue to absorb as one does as a child will ultimately prove destructive and counter productive. Fundamentally flawed in this thought process being the idea of a fixed point at which absolute or pure holiness exists through which to provide a precise location upon which all potential aspirations may direct their efforts.

Perfection then becomes the tool of holiness not as a weapon for the smiting hand of an angry god, but as the validating point which dually serves as the foundation of holiness. The belief that the imperfect cannot be an absolute facilitates this idea immensely. Perfection by nature is a stationary state, as there is no point to which to progress. Fluid concepts of perfection do not fit well in cases of Christian thought in that fluid concepts of perfection ironically involve in the very least a limited degree of tolerance toward the imperfect. Such tolerance of imperfection would not be quite so difficult to accept were not perfection in its acclaimed glorious peak applied to the Christian God. Thus, perfection is locked into a static state of being forever frozen for fear of infection by imperfection.

Thoughts?

Pure perfection can't exist at least,not on Earth.

As for the perfection of the Christian God,that is all a belief.

Certain Christians say they wish to be like their god,but that is impossibile,since they describe him as perfection,cause a person can't be perfect.Like I said pure perfection can't exist.

A continous paradox?
Interesting style. I found some flaws in the theory itself, but they are minor and wont be mentioned. Im trying to interpret a much wider specter of thoughts in "Divinity theory..." so I cant get any deeper into the subject of any particular aspect.


Keep up the good work.

Well yeah, I wanted to narrow the scope to the christian side of things because it attempts to dominate religously.

I might be looked down upon for this, but as a christian, that's right, a christian, It's my belief that true perfection is possible here on earth. It's very unlikely that any of us will obtain it in this life but it is possible. Now as to christianity dominating most all other religions and beliefs. Perhaps it's because the desire to believe in something else that's bigger than us is appealing, or it could be that God really does exist, and that he talks with us and let's us know what he want's us to do inorder to be happy.

I don't want to come acrossed as a pushy religious nut, but these are just my beliefs and if any one feels the need to talk to me about them feel free to do so.

I don't want to bash fundamentalist christians, but they seem to believe that just being "saved" is the mark of perfection. WRONG...

the problem with perfection is humans are not capable

Perfect does not exist. It is a metaphor to get small children to think about what Jesus would do.
Shadowgirl

Pure perfection can't be reached, because if you could reach pure perfection wouldn't that make you God? Since he is suppose to be the only perfect being.

perfection is a lie

i agree with kansas, perfection is a lie.. no one is perfect, even though we strive to be perfect in every way, it it physicly and emotionaly impossable

Seems to me the founders of different religions meant to give a theory of how to live life, and along the way religion has lost its passion in theory. I see religion as soceity control and organized business.(wow tax exempt too in the good ol usa)Religion has benefits and inegativities. So many sects have formed from the original history and writings.

As far as perfecting "GOD" or hence religion seems to me that the original prophet can only teach the truth of their theories , when others miscontrue and reshape it loses meaning. I dont follow any one religion for this purpose. Because ultimately I beleive ppl create the history of religion. Not that religions do not hold purpose, importance or learning. But "GOD" is a mystery to me and always will be until my last breath. So maybe only death is "God's" perfection.

Perfection... hard subject, but i don't think that you can find perfection in god or in religion... if other want to be as perfect as god (man that sucks) let them. I see perfection everywere i look, i see it in imperfect people that try to live their lives the way they are, i see it in trees, in watter, everything else but no religion.
And being as perfect as god... well i don' think that anyone can.....ERARE HUMAN EST

There is no perfection, in human, in life or in the world. However one believes, we weren't created, evolved to be perfect. If we were, there would be no point in being here in this life. We are all here for a reason. And to create such perfection is truly falsehood.
I am not Christian, but in the Chrisitan faith, there is only one way, and never shall you move from it. All religions should be what is right for one as an individual. We are different people, there is such a diversity that there is not one true anything.

That has been for me one of the biggest downfalls in the christian paradigm. If anyone has ever read Fredrick Nietchze's (spelling?) views on the subject of christianity, he does an excellent job of deconstructing it. It was after reading some of his thoughts that this piece was inspired in me.

Not being Christian I may be stating this wrong but bare with me.

If you were the reach perfection as a Christian and the concept of perfection is be like your God, wouldn't that mean that you would be worshipping yourself? And wouldn't that be against your religion since you are not to worship any other than your God?

Personally, I wouldn't want to be perfect. Too much stress involved in maintaining that perception. Afterall, isn't that all it is? My perception of perfect. Does my perception and your perception match? I doubt it. Is my perception right and your perception wrong? Depends on who you ask probably. I would rather be flawed and enjoy my life than be perfect and always have to strive to maintain perfection. If you were to lose what you perceive as a level of perfection, wouldn't that could be detrimental to your mental state? I would think so.

nothing is perfect in this world and will never been reached..

There is no perfection in any way since the fact tha you can't talk about something perfect, because it's not in human nature to understand it, so how can we talk about "perfection" if we are not made for that.

I just want to add remember the fate of "God's most perfect creation" Lucifer. Think about that for a minute.

I won't argue the existence of perfection as a possibility. Plenty of good answers for both sides of the argument have been established before. I do however offer up this hypothetical.

Were perfection possible (I know, BIG if)...but were it possible, it would imply that anything having achieved perfection would no longer need to grow, compete, learn, or conflict with anything else. It would for all intents and purposes, have removed itself from interacting with the rest of the physical world in any kind of interactive way for as soon as something imperfect interacts with perfection it's unlikely to maintain said perfection.

SO here is the hypothetical: Would perfection produce stagnation and/or loss of free will (free will implies the ability to choose wrong and make a mistake)? And if perfection did in fact mean that, would anyone want it?

I think we should say instead of
"Humans are God's most perfect creation".

That:
"God is the humans more perfect creation"

Cuz how can God be perfect if mortals are not imperfect to see it's perfection.
imperfect to

Humans are not nor will they ever be perfect. If we as a society were perfect, we would definately go stagnate. What is the point at all. We are put here to learn, grow.

I completely agree with you on that issue, LaMuerte. Just saying you're saved and leaving it at that isn't what being perfect is. It requires a lot of effort and work. As quiet a few people have stated, as mortals perfection is near to impossible to obtain in this life.

i think that perfection is just a state of mind and taht those who say they have found it cant be sane, but thats my opionion

I think more then the idea of perfection and its innumerable neuances, is the fundamental monotheistic need for a defined heirarchy and structure through which to advance and achieve that ultimate goal.

Perfection seems to have arisen not out of any form of philosophical enlightenment, but out of a need to suit. What man then, or even to a lesser degree now, would have accepted perfection as simply subjective and not applicable to any particular diety? There ins't a christian in existance who will admit god has faults, bucause that diety is by definition perfect.

It seems odd that something that should be perfect stands on the very edge of existance. On the other side as it were lies a chasm from which perfection may never recover its former glory. On the other hand, the idea of progressive self improvement is able to weather all that comes and even in the process of suffering injuries, is then able to take that and keep it further from self destruction.

Kind of funny how close perfection and the architypical ideal of evil tend to be.

Perfection on earth...That is impossible. The earth can never be perfect, until maybe the human race dies out, and even then its doubtful. As for god...no one is perfect, and as i undersand only perfect people or those who have repented in their sins will go to heaven. That will never happen. heaven, god, and perfection. i believe that they are non-existant

Im not one for organized religion, my beliefs are that one should find spirituality within themselves and let others find their own path. Yes you can believe in a higher power, but u cant let it control u. The Gods gave us a will of our own to make our own choices and blindly following others and their beliefs make us sheep. Believe in yourself and believe in whatever higher power u want to believe in, as long as u have faith in yourself u can accomplish anything.

I have to agree with you on that one Aridai. There is no one and I mean NO ONE living on this planet that ever has, or ever will be perfect. We all have flaws.

What the hell is the deal with all these religious threads in here. Nobody is perfect and personally I don't give a damn. I don't care about christianity or trying to live for some "unseen spirit".
I wish some people could open their eyes and see whats right in front of them.

in the bible God created humans... then he wanted to kill them off


in the bible God made Satan... and then kicked his butt to hell for being to arrogant...

i don't think christans even believe in perfection... everything about God is "you're not good enough, so just do the best you can and hope He'll forgive the rest"....

What I believe of perfection is that because we're imperfect we live in a perfect way... this gives us the posibility to have a life full of different thing everyday...... that includes happyness and sadness.... one can live without the other.... as life and death........ or pain and reliefev.............. I don't believe in the god that if you behave bad... I out you in hell and burn you besides the satan.... I think any parent would NEVER burn his own son..... but I do believe taht this world is so perfect for being a creation of unguided evolution..........

Chrisg has a point, my hope is that one day the christian faith will self destruct, and we will all live in a world where people see things without such interfearance.

Truthfully, religion is needed. No matter how screwy it is. Though what religion. What ever fits the moment. The very use of religon is not it's truth or lies, but more of it's overall purpose. Religion is a tool. Simply put. It does nothing more than to gives us a way of explaining what we do not know. It is human nature to fear what we do not know or understand. However, we can use religion as a way of answering thoses questions, making us fearless, therefore feeling as though we are in power.
However, we have also managed to double duty faith. It aslo acts a common law so to say. But instead of coming froma person (subject ot their whims) it is from something outside the realm of human selfishness and needs.
Lastly, it is addictive. We need it to put at ease, as it has done for millenia.
Karl Marx put it best
"religon is the opiate of the masses"

Great post Matsunome !

There are a lot of different sub sects of Christianity that veer a good bit from the mainstream version. Gnostic Christianity begins with the notion that God (The Demiurge) is not only imperfect but severely flawed, egocentric, and petty, a viewpoint which is backed up by an objective reading of the Old Testament, and yet more so by the apocrypha and Gnostic gospels. I’ve come to the belief that Christ’s message was about seeking the divine within ourselves. Where mainstream Christianity says blindly worship him and he will save you, the message of the Gnostic texts seems to be follow his example and save yourself.

Personally, I find the idea of perfection to be a highly subjective one.  All things are perfect examples of themselves.

*applauds* Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner. Religion is but an attempt to explain, regardless of which religion it is. What I find more fascinating is how each religion chooses to present itself. There seems to be a decided difference in the marketing strategies if indeed I may use that term.

Monotheism seems to have a decided focus on the old english style of education involving the lecturn and the pupils. The polytheistic ones seem more rooted in the lifestyle surrounding the worshippers.

The metaphysical realm as a third party, is oddly enough in a strange way a mix of the first two. The lifestyle is key to ensuring proper success with one's efforts, and if one's efforts are as dedicated as with the monotheistic system.

Ironically, and from a chronological perspective, this latest one came first. Funny how the world works.

Perfection should be attempted.

I am going to post a new screenplay called Vampariah.

and later here I will add to this thread, to show you the concept of the Science God, how science takes one angle of the human experience, and God takes the other, and just as Eastern Medicine of the Orient and western medicine don't exactly crisscross so doesn't Science and God, unless you are a Science God. Science is the device to reach a perfect state in the harmony of the balance of nature and man, and the supernatural, which is a state of being man kind gets put in when the attempt at perfection is made. Perfection is not allowed by society because of the plethora of fake people who have no soul and do not care about others. When Jesus was crucified, it was Gods plan to have him crucified, to teach humans how perfection is against the law on society on earth. With this lesson of perfection denied, maybe as a whole we can learn from Jesus, his sacrifice of the mortal in him, the flesh, and maybe in the future accept the next messiah, who, oh was jsut born in a hospital somewheres, who will not be abused in any fashion have drreams and ideologies, and construct a world of perfection he/she wishes to share, and then be turned into a supernatural being witgh poowers of communication, baptized by life and accepted in a thousand years. Kurt Vonnegut said: "The period after the cruciifixtion of Jesus Christ can be summed up in one sentence, there was a period of readjustment for 2,000 years after the crucifixtion of Jesus." If only all the blind worshippers of the church could learn from the story of Christ, then the next Messiah would be allowed to save the world with theiur dream of perfection.

Perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

MercyManic raises a very interesting point. I hold a slightly different view. First an analogy:

Think of a complex machine. If you isolate a part, by itself it may seem completely useless. If you look at it in relation to other parts, you begin to see a function. All of the parts together make a “perfect” machine. You are a part. God/The Universe is the machine. Our minds are simply too small to see the whole picture, and thus the function.

Perfection is a somewhat tricky concept. When we use the term, it is used in a context, and is usually an opinion. (“The is the perfect song for my mood.” or “That formula expresses the idea perfectly.”) When we begin to talk about God or the universe in terms of perfection, we are attempting to apply this limited concept to something far more massive than it is normally used for. If we could see the whole picture, we might note that it is perfect. We cannot, and thus we cannot truly know.

FelixFelix: It's hard to say. It would appear that your definition of perfection would include the existence of a God who controls the state of perfection. In that case, if one were perfect, and were thus controlled by God, then no, there would be no more free will for that individual. Now, as for wanting that, if God gives me enough chocolate chip cookies straight from the oven, then heck yeah. :)

LaMuerte, Asche, DemoniaFrost, and others: Many in this thread, starting with you guys, said that perfection is impossible, or does not exist, or that perfection is everywhere. My question for you is; do you know the universal truth of perfection? Or have you made a choice based on your experiences? And if you have made a choice based on your experiences, can you not say that others have done the same, and come to different conclusions? What then? Would you still claim that your definition is 'the' definition?

ChrisG: I would love to have that kind of unquestioning outlook. Upon inspection, it's the same as those with unquestioning faith. There are many different reasons for both sides of the coin that a person could choose to not question...but what it comes down to...is being comfortable in what knowledge you have.

Matsunome: Interesting outlook on things, man! But will you deny that Christianity has been good for some people? Hasn't religion always been both abused by its own believers, and still helped masses of people find in themselves a lasting faith that makes them stronger people? To say you'd like to see an entire religion crumble, fall, and dissapear forever, is something close to the genocide of millions of people. We can't know the answers, and with that knowledge comes the realization that; we. Know. Nothing. Including whether or not one church, one religion, is the 'right' one. To demonize the Church is the same as the Church demonizing the many things it has for its own uses. Fight the people, not the cause.

AnotherGothicStereotype: I agree! Whether or not we know the answers, pretending we know them until we believe we know them makes it easier to get by. But do you think that maybe one day, mankind will no longer need religion to feel whole? Could we evolve that way?

i was raised some what catholic and some what hippie and i remember the chruch's teachings and then what my grandma taught me lol

grams always said perfection is "living kind to others and doing what is right even if others see that as wrong..a bible is a guid not a life style holyness and perfection come from stopping every day to help an old person across the street or being polite even when people around you are being mean."

i think thats basically what chrstianity was formed on but some place along the line it got replaced bye propaganda and a sense of nationalisim or what ever..for prophet and as an excuse to go to war or what not.


as for true perfect..one thoery is that every atom of your body all the matter your made of has always been and was always part of the universe..

75% of the world is water and eighty percent of that water came from cometts now most of your body is water

there for most of you was made from the heavens in a very literall sense...i guess if you want to get into this theory

we are perfect simply because we are part of a never ending eternal cosmos

in any event i think eventually the human race will contiue to evolve and to a point where we will either die away or transcend.to another state of evolution..

that too is a form of perfection

matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it merely changes phase. We are stardust, the sun is our god. More people have died for religion than for any other nomenclature. Why would god put three bibles into the Jews hands, the Muslim, and the Christian, and have them go to war over the very same word of god? It is the tower of bable all over again. If god is perfect why would he confuse all of us to the point we have to go to war because we don't recongize we are all god's creation. The human body appears to have beed "designed" it is so incredible. The feedback system one guy was talking about is called a dynamo, whereby there is no energy lost from what is put in, it goes round and round, like each of us unable to be influenced by the other because we are a convict of our convictions. The ability to understand is based soley upon the ability, and the desire, minds that are not open, do not change, do not grow, do not evolve to perfection. I know you disagree, it is human nature to not to. We all fear change, we are comfy in our cosy chairs, life distracts us from facing ourselves, everything is an opiate, we are sedated, dreamstates bedclothes street clothes blend, we walk like puppets when all the world's a staging, who is next to be executed in the name of god because we are perfect? Does anyone know why Christ was crucified? Has anyone learned anything from his murder? He was the son of god, he had but a whore and 12 disciples, that is it, the son of god, perfect, and crucified amongst a thief and a murderer. When we realize the inability to accept perfection in our messiahs, then maybe we can divine as to why we destroy the golden ones who care. It is because we aren't perfect, and we don't care, so we are insecure when we confront perfection. Perfection is not really perfection, it is an ideal only, that is all it is something to shoot for, to aim for, to try, even if it puts the cross hairs on our backs, the only problem with perfection is the inability of the comman man to accept such states of grace. Man has much evolving to do before he can recognize godliness in mankind. If we were created in gods image, then the perfection is potentially possible in each of us.

People who follow the Christian god know they are imperfect and not try to BE perfect but to simply try to live as Jesus did. In fact their religion is based on the assumption that they can not be perfect and therefore need Jesus to take their place on judgement day to be judged in their place.... to be the sacrifice, the scapegoat etc...

Like Asche, I too am Christian. Unlike him, I know from the teaching of the Bible that perfection can not be reached here on Earth. We are all sinners. And, I think, because God has somewhat of a messed up sense of humor, your right. As you get closer to Him the more darkness and flith you have to fight against. That's how we as Christians are tested. We all fail the tests from time to time, some of us more than others, but we always can get right back onto the track we were made for. As a believer, I love the fact that I have someone watching out for me. I may be an adult but I will admit that life sometimes scares me. Not knowing what will happen tomorrow can consume you if you let it.
As for us trying to dominate, we are all messangers. You share what you believe I share what I believe. Whether it be religion or not. We, as Christins, belive in the God Almighty and he asks that we share our beliefs with others. We do this not only by treating others as we'd like to be treated but by TRYING to live a good and fruitful life. Many religions teach this, not just Christianity.
Also, as someone else stated, their are plenty of what I call "lazy" churches who teach that once your saved your in and you can do nothing to endanger that. My church doesn't not teach that for it says nothing of the sort in the Bible. If you are saved and then decided to be a serial killer, you're chances of going to Heaven just dropped to 0. Read the Ten Commandments, why would God give us laws to obey if all we have to do is believe and not work towards a better life?

i would love to know more about this

Some interesting points made here, but I honestly wonder if the focus may be in the wrong place.

Certainly I agree that many people look for "perfection" - I think it's natural - humans seek to find order and stability in a world that's governed by the Second Law of Thermodynamics (in a closed system entropy tends to increase). Of course, one could argue that the Earth isn't a close system, succesfully, but I think that's a rat hole for another day.

I'm another one that falls into the Christian category - a refugee from the Southern Baptist Church when it went Fundamentalist. Honestly, I see Fundamentalism as a very new and flawed theology that I hope will ultimately end up on the dustbin of history, but again, that's another rat hole for another day.

So back to the original topic, many people seek perfection - and hold up God as the ideal. However, Christian theology is not the only belief system that espouses the virtues of perfection, or at least devotion to a "higher" calling. However I honestly think that misses the point.

We are humans. Biologically we're nothing more than apes with less body hair... well, some of us at least. There is clearly something different about human development in terms of our mental capacity, our ability to communicate and learn, etc. I choose to believe that is indicative of a soul. However, when one speaks of the soul, or God, or other higher beings - then one goes well outside the human - well outside the semi-hairless ape with an IQ - to something much different, and something I honestly don't think we have a solid mental picture of at this point.

What is perfection? Is it a state of being? Is it a degree of awareness? Is it a body of knowledge? Is it the capacity to learn and adapt? I honestly don't think we understand our Universe enough at this point to even DEFINE what perfection truly is - much less achieve it. Since I don't believe that we can even define perfection, I'm not sure I buy the argument that it is immutable and unadaptable. The universe is infinitely adaptable, and ever changing - if there is truly such a thing as perfection, then it changes with the universe. Perhaps instantaneous perfection, but only for that instant?

Stormwind makes a very good point! How do you define perfection?
As he said, many hold the definition of perfection as God; but in order for that to work, you would have to define God. You can do that through religion, certainly, that's easiest. I'm simply one of those that is uncomfortable doing that. I can't define something that I have no proof exists.

So I guess my current view is; I can't define God or perfection. I could say 'Fuck it, I don't even know if I can ever find a satisfactory definition, I give up' or, 'A challenge, what fun'.

Right now I'm going for the challenge...I know...I'm an idiot.

There is perfection in imperfection.

I’m not sure where I heard that before, but I believe it to be true.

Perfection as defined in Webster’s as:
1 : the quality or state of being perfect : as a : freedom from fault or defect : FLAWLESSNESS b : MATURITY c : the quality or state of being saintly
2 a : an exemplification of supreme excellence b : an unsurpassable degree of accuracy or excellence
3 : the act or process of perfecting

Perfection depends on your point of view. Earlier in this post someone gave examples like how a song can perfectly fit your mood or how a theory can express an idea perfectly. While I believe that Ben and Jerry’s Cherry Garcia is the perfect ice cream, someone else may think plain old chocolate chip is the perfect ice cream. We can see perfection in little, seemingly meaningless ways. But when we look at it as a broad concept- everything seems to come up lacking somehow.

As far as God goes…
His perfection is an example of how those who believe in Him should try to live. I can tell you right now, I don’t do a very good job of it. =p Being raised Catholic, I was told how I should behave in order to be acceptable to God. I believe that God, in His infinite wisdom, created us to not be perfect. That’s part of being human. I don’t believe I have to be ‘saved’, just accepted for being the imperfect creation I am, trying to do the best I can.

Besides- perfection is overrated! =)

I agree perfection is in the eye of the beholder.I also was raised in christian beliefs.The bible says that we can't be perfect,because we were born into sin,but on the other hand it says that we were created in his image.Well,if that is true then the body will never be perfect,but the soul maybe,but we haven't figured out how to let the eternal light show through us,so we can be one with the universe.That's probably why we all have past lives is to learn to become one with the universe and let the light out.

actually real woman, you were right about there is perfection in imperfection.

We separated from the Neanderthals because of sin

the more we sin the closer actually we come to god or being gods or understanding the word of god

sinning is the driving force of evolution

if we are to evolve, evolution should move forwards, funny how being imperfect and sinning leads to perfection

consider that man says that god created man, however if you think on it, man created god...

for eons we have needed a way to explain that which we do not know, and everytime that we do explain it and it becomes a truly accepted fact then that god eventually becomes useless, we then have another to explain something else...

and so it goes, man creats god, god creates man...

I agree with Mercy Manic and FromnothingIcome our minds as humans can not get around what true perfection is..Do I believe in God yes I do this is my chocie and I don't try messing with other peoples choices..This is a very thoughful and thought invoking thread...Much I don't agree with...This maybe because I personal don't seek prefection..The only perfect person died to rescue my soul...I try my best to emulate his teachings not some church doctrine chruches are run by people after all not directly by God or Jesus....Jesus taught love that is what I believe in the love for all things and people...I know I'm not perfect because if I was I wouldn't have gotten upset over something here on another forum or felt frustration when I believed I wasn't being heard.....

the thing about humans that make us human is our ability to evolve, grow...

God had a premonition to sacrifice Jesus for us to learn that we as humans don't accept perfection in others. That is why perfection isn't possible in humans, yet. If we learn from God's lesson from the crusifixion of Jesus, then perfection is palpable.

The woman up above, she said perfecion is subjective. Thrash metal might be perfect music for some, but I like sanatas first album. Individual perfection is something that should be striven for, and so it is like all the peeps up above who say perfection is in the eye of the beholded, you decide what ideal to strive towards. I decide to understand Jesus life, even though I am agnostic, for it reveals human nature, the way a god would encapsulate us under their thumb nail. We can become gods if we accept the perfection other peeps decide for them selve to attain, what ever frequency of vibration they choose to hum.

So you think perfection is not only attainable but desireable? Imperfection in humans leads to mistakes...mistakes lead to learning and understanding...shoot me the day I stop learning or don't feel I need to. Perfection means stagnation, boredom, and lack of free will. Perfection seems a terrible punishment for all that work growing and learning.

Well all the threads are coming to gether now, read the pseudo philosophy one peecachoo started, that discusses The pursuit of happiness, and well, you are on my case on the other one about the origin of the soul. I am not going to repeat myself here, the clues are all in there, I have said as much as I can say without being admonished and duct taped over my typing hands, and censored, Frank Llyod Wright the guy that designed the first skyscrapers, he said something to the effect of intelligent people don't repeat themselves, is there an echo in here? Felix Felix? (just joking it came out wrong, but I like the serendipity)

You should check out the movie

Felix the lucky slave

I am sure you have seen the title, but then, well, you would lose your soul and come closer to god, somehow it works out that way man, you gotta believe me, have faith in an agnostic!

I'll check out the movie...never heard of it
I'm not trying to bust your chops by the way...I'm just trying to point out why I have my own problems with ideas of faith, perfection, god and 'salvation'.

actually you were making me angry, please forgive what I wrote on another thread. Consider our butting heads to have been a misunderstanding, it is just two worlds colliding. I am on the way out and you are on the way up. I have a thread on my Coven site the obscurus Silencus, about the plot to Jonathon Livingston Sea Gull. I am just the old sea gull telling you that if you fly way above the clouds and then point your beak straight down, you can reach a velocity that will take you to another ralm of existence. Jonathon doesn't believe this is so, but then he tries it an he has his break through in the end. Don't eat any alka seltzer....

ha hah ha

Hehe well whether or not I'm destined for a new realm or a broken beak full of ocean...I appreciate the gesture.

...

nobody is perfect,chirstians,humans,nobody!
and pure perfection doesnt exist,i dont want to offend the crhistians in this site but all the christians think that just cos they are with god,cos they beleive in god.cos they think"god"is the more perfect the more powerful,guess what!,god is not the more powerful or the perfect one,nobody is!,there are a lot of god in this world,angels,dark angels,archangels,guardians etc etc etc.
i am not afraid of god i am not afraid of nothing,why to fear a god?why?beleieve in yourself,believe in you,in you spirit.
my point of view

i can draw a perfect circle

ok

The only real thing I see as perfect is Love and not the love in a sexual relationship but the kind of universal love called Agapi---I tend to love people in this fashion or try to often I fail because I'm human and imperfect...I grow each day, I don't want to stagnate....So I guess I will never be perfect...Still it is a concept that I really don't believe the human mind can get around

At this stage in human evolution, "perfection" is still something unattainable. We strive for it, but we're no where near to it... that said, what really IS perfection? And who's qualified to create a frame of reference? For me, perfection is an impossibility. My perfect house is someone's slum. Your perfect picture is my photo-blooper. My 2¢ are that humans need to stop worrying about perfection (being like a god) and start focusing on treating others with more respect and kindness.

We all have it within ourselves to be kind and generous, so why all this anger and hatred?

GOOD POST SHYLOC!

Bravo Jens...We only use what ten percent of our brains at this time the very idea of perfect is like trying to think into infinti large endless concepts

sounds interesting, althou im slash /occult/wicca

This is a very interesting thread...and i must say....there is no such thing at perfection...nothing is perfect...But i do like the way you think that a religion suits its worshipper's....if you believe in something powerful and great..worship it...dont mock those who dont share your views...because you wouldn't like them mocking you and your views would you!?

Each and everyone of us have different views on different things...some believe in God & Jesus, some believe in Satan & some believe in everything in between! Personal perference!

I see that philosophy is your strong suit and something that you are going to enjoy for the rest of your life. I am glad to know that the disclipine of philosophy is not going to be neglected by the love some have for the lastest technology that has flooded the marketplace.

All people are searching for something. Some find it in religion. The idea of religious leader s being salesmen is scary, but you made a valid point. They are unable to sell me whatever they choose. I accept only what I find to be true and leave the rest where it needs to be.

Giotto walked into an art school. He was too young. He said I am a great artist. They said get out of here. He walked over to the chalkboard picked up the chalk and then in a flick of the wrist drew a perfect circle in a flash.

There was a group called in a perfect circle

or something

perfection is a moment in time, when you don't even try

the whole Rudyard Kipling "If" poem line

in the unforgiving minute, do one minute of long distance run, if you do that, you will become a man my son.

The inability to endure one moment, or harbor an emotion for one minute can shatter an entire future.

I see the fampuse postcard painting picture of the angel with his hair all in a mess, with their hand on their face, looking up at god like they know they messed up. There are two in that series.

I remember listening to the radio one day, and they were talking about character. One guy calls up and says, Character is what you do when you are alone.

I felt he was wrong, I felt character is what you do when somethng goes wrong in life. How do you react when the sh*^t hits the fan. That is character. I have however come to the understanding that it is human to err in that unforgiving minute (alone) when you are alone, to sit with a hand on the face and look at the heavens, but that is a moment in time. The next frame of the fallen angel is the one I would draw, the angel trying life again by pulling themself up by their bootstraps.

It is character that fails you, it is character to save yourself.

There is no perfect character, but, comebacks are beautiful, I always tell the bums. They smile with their missing teeth, and then they see my broken grill. That is a moment of perfection in my book, when the outside looks just like the within, when your cracked soul seeps through and is exemplified in your image, exact, even if it is imperfect, it is a perfect image of imperfection.

I agree with Lolitamaire well said to the point

Perfection is to be perfect in all things. this statement and perfection in total is wrong. all things negate themselves out perfect at being good and perfect at being bad impossible. i personally strive solely for balance in my life and soul.

I do not believe in perfection at all ~ grant it some are better than others in what ever they may do, BUT~ perfection~ NO I just do not see it and I went to church and all that, the ones who call themselves perfect in their religion in my opinon is a false statement~~ I mean even GOD had an angel who defide him on all points then adam and eve well we all know about the serpent `don't we >> then you have the CHRIST who died for your sins ~~ so we are not perfect in any sense we strive to be yet we are human and therefore in capable of being perfect~~ too many emotions and physical handicaps one might say~ So I just do not see how any one could be perfect we are all so different in our own ways, beliefs ~etc.~ probably why I do not go to church anymore~ alot of people see it different, as to following ~A~ religion. I am not knocking any one believe that ~~ I have family that are preachers etc and that is all good but, there is no perfection to me in life we all make mistakes and usually learn from that~Well just my outlook on it :)

Well said Bitten

What sins did Jesus die for? Our sins? Yeah, the sin of not being able to accept our savior.

I played in a basketball church pick up game Monday night thing where there was Jesus talk at the halfway point.

These were religious peeps. I as there for the balling.

I did more talking than the peeps who had a bible in their pockets.

Enlightenment made me qualified to ask Paul the right questions. Perfect religious peeps who never sin don't understand the bible. Yeah they smack their kids around because they love them and they feel that is a sin, and there are all different hand in the cookie jar episodes that peeps feel bad for, and they think that Jesus died for those sins. Whaaat? Come on. We weren't even alive when he was crucified, how could he have died for my slander just now? It is ridiculous, even my advance concept of time travel doesn't fit this quagmire.

I am an amazing athlete, I was the best at the league nights. There ws this other guy that came twice and he played above the rim. He was Scandinavian like me but also like 6 foot 5 or something, and like in his mid twenties. He crushed all of us. When he came I was not the best, but he only came twice. Towards the end of the time I spent there Paul the preacher started to copy the way I played, he was doing behind the back passes and it was great. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. It was key that Paul did that for me. I know our minds did not meet, he read about Jesus all the time he prolly didn't understand the significance of Christ's life. Sometimes you have to walk away from something to see it clear, like a lover.

Anyways, one day we had to pick teams and I was picked the very last. Those Christians got back at me. I was not Jesus, I was not even trying to save them, only to the extent that if they picked me they had a better chance of winning. I have never been picked last in all my life. Even when I was 4 feet tall. Maybe I wasn't the very best, but I wasn't the worst either. The short guy with stone hands got picked in front of me, the guy with ADD got picked ahead of me, everyone got picked ahead of me.

OK, so you don't want me to help you win, what is it pride, to not to pick me first to make me feel like a loser that prevents me from making you a winner? Is that what it is? Some kind of insecurity that they wanted to stamp on me inferiority? Yhe only problem with perfection, let me restate that, the only thing imperfect about perfection is the inability of people to accept perfection.

Yes, Jesus doesn't come back and never will, because humans never change, they hate perfection, they crucify perfection. Same scenario, always. I was perfect once. I really was. I had built the perfect life. If you don't believe in perfection, then why did a 40 million dollar heir with the best ass in NYC Love me?

If that perfect figure skating ass wasn't perfect, then you are all correct there is no such thing as perfect.

And anyways, writing lines like I agree with so and so's line and then I go up there to see what the line is, and I am like, that is soooo insipid? You just don't get it, you can't even confront my perfect arguements, go stand in front of a mirror and get a print out of everyhting I have written watch your face wince everytime I ring the bell of truth. Yeah, baby, that is human nature, you would derail a train to get the spikes to nail Jesus's hands to the cross if he did come back, in fact all of you would kill each other to be first in line to drink his blood. Sacrilage? Blasphemy? How could that be so when it is exactly the case. I ain't wasting my time on this thread anymore... there is no more cloth left from jesus's face that covered him after he died, it is thread bare. Believe what you want, but I choose to believe in perfection, if you believe in perfection, then you can be perfect. The only reason why you embrace imperfection is because you fear stagnation... with perfection, there is no such thing as down time. Perfection you fear, that is all there is. Go about making your perfect children, don[t understand me because of your desire to be imperfect, and then see your perfetc children crucified, because I told you about human nature and you didn't listen. That is reality folks. It is about making perfect children from mothers and fathers that need the other to rid their sin upon their genes, and then when you win the game of life and make the perfect child they pin the tail on the donkey with your child, a game that accelerates quickly to a game called kick the can. If life is a game we all lose.

Yeah well we all do lose it is called death~~ and if you read my statement I said that there are those who are better then others at whatever it may be` yet you and no one is perfect cause if you were perfect it actually would not bother what I think or my opinon is cause~~you are perfect~~ therefore have no reason to ~PROVE YOURSELF~~ to any one or any thing - what would it matterto the ones that are imperfect or below you?~~

no it just gets frustrating when you have the cure for malaria and they smear them selves in honey to attract mosquitos that;s all, it is not whether I am perfect, I want others to realize that they are. I think I am going to leave the site this is ridiculous. If this is an addiction it is called heroin.

I do believe in a type of perfection. For example my daughter, with all her flaws and faults, is the perfect soul to be my daughter. I would want no other.

And this is where I have trouble with the Christian religion. I as a mere human can find the perfection and love for my daughter. I will love her no matter the road she takes. God on the other hand can only love us if we do A-Z

she will have her cross unfortunately, we all do. It is the lack of perfection in others that render the rest of the globe to be perfect in their eyes.

I remember when the pysche wing tried to shut me up by giving me a female shrink, and when she first came in she was not remarkably beautiful. I was like, I am not even going to sit down and talk to a woman about my male problems, and then eventually I said maybe she could cut through the shrink conspiracy of the withholding the truth, she would not be among the league of male psychologists who know about the deal. I schooled her, and the more I fell, the more beautifuk I found her to be. Her skin was shiny, her clothes pressed and neat. Every month I would go back for the medicine that was making me look retarded in the face and putting weight on me, and the uglier and less perfect I got, the more she became like a gold to me. By the end, the sun was shining on her. I told her I am not taking that medication any more, it pouts weight on me and is going to give me diabetes, and then I also told her I have regained my mind, anbd she said well if you don't need meds and you aren't crazy then why do you have to see me?

and I was like, oh, yeah right. I have not seen a shrink ever since, but man by the end she was so beautiful, all the knowledge of my self detruction went into the reinforcement of her being, and she knew how to accent each part of her I told her could be taken away, so I made her some sexual demon, female shrinks are the way to go. I guess that is why they say when you go with a guy woith no legs there is no way back. I saw her a couple of months ago on the street, I said hi dr Rosnebaum, and she didn't recoignize me I had lost 30 pounds and was walking wihtout a shirt, I had made it back to some sort of estimation of perfection, even though I was not perfect I had perfected her, and she was a goddess from my knowledge.

Well in my opinon that is called ~~ Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and as for a child sure there is perfection, till they begin to make mistakes, then ~~ what we grow from that ~~ so you see how you may and others see it as imperfection~~ therefore there is not real perfection in life~~ I don't know I just feel that way ~~ and I am a very positve person not neg. ~~ just my opinon is all~

you make good posts Biten, you are a very sensible man, I will take what you say under advizement, and look forwards to seeing your posts elsewhere. Somewhere in your level headness, there is a brilliance that blinds with understatement.

imnot perfect

There is no such thing as perfection. Every religion has something about how it came about that doesn't make sense. That is why we have free will, the ability to make up our own minds. To choose what we want to believe. That which is seen or unseen. All you have to do is be yoou, and if society doesn't like you for you then they can all piss off.

i dont believe god is real. i believe god is make believe just like santa and the easter bunnie. god is sopste to be there for you, and answer your prayes, well he doesnt answer mine, and hes never there for me, so i believe he is not the person he says he is. hes fake.

I don't believe that perfection is inexistent, but that perfection is a concept of individual perception. I think I just fried my last brain cell on that sentence. Perfection, to borrow a lame cliche type thing, is in the eye of the beholder. What is perfect to one person could have multiple flaws to another person. Is it possible to believe that something/one is perfect... sure... but don't expect your view to be shared by the rest of the population.

Another thought... I'm not a religious person at all and I don't believe that there's one all powerful supreme being, God, and I'm not exactly 'up' on Christian beliefs, but if man was supposedly created in God's image, and God is perfect, wouldn't that lead to men being perfect as well?

well, if we expect people not to understand the sublime, then they will not. Unfortunately subliminal ideas can not be expressed without using big words, for they refer to concept that if clarified, they wouldn't even bother to RIA a subject, they would just wash it away instantly. Anyways, raising the expectations of the reader to be able to pull the meaning of a word when it is used in the right context educate the reader on another level. Take the word quintessential fer instance. Some words have such an amazing need for expression, and they are a combination of ideas, paragraphs of words all rolled up into one word. Take the German word Weltanstauung, another aprapos example. This word means life-time-outlook. This is what it is after all. All the conversations I have ever had, all the reading, all the stupid commercails I had to sit through to hear the final chapter of some historics figure's life, it all boils down to a crescendo or a flurry of hands typing trying to make the initiate understand the process of reason.

I sent Daermon a message about the Gallileo concept asking him to verify why it is not worthy the topic of Gallileo.

And anyways, when I first strated posting on here, they eradicated total forum posts without even RIAing them, I merely have just begun to play in this sand box and eventually I will find my place in the decorum of the forum, by breeching etiquette. Pretty soon I will learn how to post without getting deleted, especially with reasonable advanced Ravers like Daermon advizing me.

However I believe the reason why I have to conceal exactly what enlightenment is on public forum threads, and have to use big word concepts is very integral in this topic.

I do believe that what is in the black box of the free masons, the ultimate secret of reality of human life on planet P is something I already know all to well. I don't have to look in that box. There is only one ultimate reality. There can be no other.

The Gallileo thing, and paralleling Darwin's evolutionary concept into it and the rise of science as the governing aspect of the Rennaissance, the rebirth of the mind through the inspiration of perfect art, for the hidden secrets of life, the power of the free masons in the box, is the exposition and concealment of the forces of evolution and nothing more.

Darwin talked about the evolution of all life forms, but no one has gone into depths the science of how men can change, stay gods, become higher gods, turn into metoric monsters such as I, or evolve physically and mentally towards a perfect state or away from our perfection. This book on the forces of human evolution, the catalysts, the triggers, will never be written, and I therorize that wihtut even looking in Tolstoy's little black box, that that is what lies theirin, which if it came out... all the lies in the half truths of civilization...

sorry I posted in the wrong thread oops I guess I am not perfect?

You are funny~~ and just for the record I am a WOMAN ~~~LOL ~~ but it is all good~~ I just have myopinon ~yet~ I have no problem listening to others and discussing them~~

I believe perfection is in the eye of the beholder. For a christian, God is perfection. And so on.

And I don't believe perfection can be found in humans. Where others find perfection, you may find flaws. Unless you see yourself as perfect, and all others do as well, you can never be perfect. So far, I have found no one that this applies to, either famous, legendary, or other. So in my mind, perfection is an illusion. A wish for something that can never be.

In my opinion, perfection is just an illusion.
I mean, if the world was created to be perfect.. well what about these natural disasters, what about the people?
And from a non- religous point of view, you know there's always someone better than you...

if their was a thing as perfection we would be mindless droids are imperfections is what makes each and every one of us individuals

Just wanted to take a moment to say....God, I love this thread.

I am at this time leaning toward the persuasion that if perfection and God existed, we probably wouldn't understand it or even recognize it when we saw it. This sentiment goes more for the God side than the perfection side....what is perfect? I think Calvin and Hobbes is fucking great. If someone re-made all the comics in a different style, some people may see the new artwork as an improvement, and others (probably myself included:) would see it as a blasphemy. Therefore, I don't think perfection is a rigid thing. Maybe even God isn't a rigid thing. As in, God is not a glass of water, God may be a long island iced tea, know what I mean?

Ooh, goody, I saw a flaw in my own opinion. I love arguing with myself. I made this statement about perfection within the boundaries of human perception. Obviously, this is kind of a vain thing, isn't it? We are not all that exists. Simply because we can disagree about the perfection of a single piece of art does not, necessarily, reflect the nature of perfection.

And so I come back to my original statement, then...I am not a blade of grass...I am not some heretofore undiscovered planet...I am only my own perception, and I cannot say that my perception is ultimately correct. I cannot know what perfection, or God, is.

The Egyptians believed in a sun god,

one day the sun was so low I saw a blade of grass throw a shadow for a hundred miles....

and as far as the glass of water or Long Island Ice Tea aspect, no, you are wrong, god is a bottle of tequila half full, or half empty... depending upon on how you look at it.

I remember when my life was perfect. I was in the DJ booth hiding between two girl jean butts with my shirt somewheres else, sitting on my vinyl, peeps in the bar kept coming up to the booth to say turn down the great music these girls were spinning. I couldn't confront them, since they had stopped serving me alcohol for free, I had to hide my half filled bottle of tequila, behind their behinds, is that not perfection?

So Iz goes outside wihtout a shirt, the fall is coming, the wind gives me goose bumps on my gym teacher tight body, and I see everyone slinking around as if the power of life has been sucked out of them, and even though I was tripping on the tequila and the burned jeans in my mind, I remember yelling for like two minutes: "Get a life!" over and over again, so they pulled the plug on me, me and my powerfect life...

It exists because in part every sheep needs a flock, without this flock, it all falls apart(for many many people that follow things blindly not all who have religious beliefs), the delicate system. As for perfection, it is very easy to put on a pedistol something you have never seen, something that no matter how much on this planet goes wrong someone always has an excuse and a justification for why their supream being lets things happen. Very easy indeed to deem something that possibly does not exist to be "perfect"

Perfection does not exist in human beings. We are not capable of being perfect.

I dont believe in perfection or in god or in satan... :)
The Perfection do not exist ...
God maybe he exist but were.. ?
Saten hmm.. whatever

How could a perfect power create imperfect beings? Nothing is ever perfect, nor can any one thing be all powerful. Can the all powerful create a buritto so hot that the power itself could not hold it? Religon as defined by websters is anything practiced routinely. So dance can be a religon, and so can this website... I belive people create their idea of a higher power to justify their life...

i'm sorry but nothing is prefect.....NOTHING

you know this is a good read....and another reason I hate church and christianity mumbo jumbo...

you know vamp stalker, your right, wasn't god bored and that was why he created us? Gods should not have ennui, that would be a human trait, which are imperfect beings, whom strive for the ideal, only because imperfection exists. Imperfection is necessary to achieve perfection, we only want what we don't have.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.