This thread is not intened to talk about religion. Although I don't see how it can be avoided. I do not mean to disrepect anyone either so if it is inappropriate to bring this topic up, I am apologizing ahead of time and understand if it is closed.
I am merely asking because I have heard many people say they do not believe in God. Now I'm not asking about God because I know what I believe in. What I am asking is, if you don't believe in God, then how did the Devil come to be? I learned about the Devil from the Bible. I would like to hear your opinion or your belief about the Devil.
Well, the "devil" is a biblical figure, nothing more really...that is its origin. If you do not follow the bible, I see no reason to believe in any devil. Now religions like some forms of Satanism, "Satan" is merely used as symbolism, not worshiped as an actual entity. To actually believe in a Satan, I think one must believe in "god" the two go hand in hand, and "Satan" is of god's creation...according to the very origin of Satan.
You definately have the words right! You never cease to amaze me. That is what I think also but you do have those people that will straight up tell you they don't believe in God but do in fact believe in the Devil. I thought it would be fair to ask, and because I'm curious about why people say that when like you have allready stated they seem to go hand in hand.
Thank you.
I really don't appreciate people taking other people's religious figures and contorting them to fit their own views(when they are speaking of the said figure as a REAL entity that is). Most people will say that god and the devil go hand in hand. They originated from the same ideas and places.
To me, they are both apart of a great piece of literature, a fable. But that is just my view. God and Satan represent to me the adult version of what the boogie man and Santa are to children. Representing the good and bad paths.
hahah thanks for the humor (only you could have made me laugh about this) *ahem* ok I'm trying to be serious here so lets keep it going...who knows maybe everyone will say the same thing
ACTUALLY.."the devil" and the term "satan" have very little to do with each other, in fact. "Satan" in Hebrew and as described through many "old testament" stories...simply means "adversary or obstacle". Therefore, "Satan" is someting to be overcome through say good works or judgement NOT some friggin beast that is going to take over the Earth.
THE DEVIL is an incorrect,superstious and mythological fantasy based on overblown "satan" stories etc etc. The DEVIL IS NOT BASED IN THE BIBLE ANYWHERE....I challenge you to demonstate it...if you answer by quoting John in the "Book of Revalation" please followby explaining how that relates to one being as oppesed to a nation, so on and so forth. Tired.
The first person that bashes religion will incur wrath; if not from me, from any of the NUMBER of spiritual/religious administrators.
PLEASE...if we are to have a discussion of this nature, be smart and be civil.
Sevenn I can only thank you for clarifying that for me as I really was naive to the Devil and Satan having nothing to do with the other. Obviously not having searched out the topic before raising the question. Perhaps I would have asked it in a different way. It is not an original question, I only repeated what I have heard...out of curiosity
"The DEVIL IS NOT BASED IN THE BIBLE ANYWHERE....I challenge you to demonstate it.."
I dont really see why that was nessicary, but...ok.
anyway, most people associate satan with the bible, regardless of who came up with it, abd I do indeed know what the word satan means. You know the company dupont does not invent things, but becomes famous for making things better and more associated with their name. Same goes for Satan and the bible, or satan and god.
"The DEVIL IS NOT BASED IN THE BIBLE ANYWHERE"
OH and...reeeeeeeeeeeeeealy????
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
- Bible, I Peter (ch. V, v. 8)
How are thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
- Bible, Isaiah (ch. XIV, v. 12)
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
- Bible, James (ch. IV, v. 7)
now....what were you saying?
or did you mean the devil was around before the bible?? do elaborate.
oh and here is the list in full, i do believe..oh and the bible mentions "Satan" as well imagine that!
Satan: (Job 1:6-12; Job 2:1-7; Zechariah 3:1-2; Matthew 4:10; Matthew 12:26; Matthew 16:23; Mark 1:13; Mark 3:23, 26; Mark 4:15; Mark 8:33; Luke 10:18; Luke 11:18; Luke 13:16; Luke 22:3, 31; John 13:27; Acts 5:3; Acts 26:18; Romans 16:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 7:5; 2 Corinthians 2:11; 2 Corinthians 11:14; 2 Corinthians 12:7; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; 2 Thessalonians 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:20; 1 Timothy 5:15; Revelation 2:9, 13, 24; Revelation 3:9; Revelation 12:9; Revelation 20:2, 7)
the devil: (Matthew 4:1, 5, 8, 11; Matthew 13:39; Matthew 25:41; Luke 4:2-3, 5, 9, 13; Luke 8:12; John 8:44; John 13:2; Acts 10:38; Acts 13:10; Ephesians 4:27; Ephesians 6:11; 1 Timothy 3:6-7; 2 Timothy 2:26; Hebrews 2:14; James 3:15; James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:8; 1 John 3:8, 10; Jude 9;
I thought 'The devil' in the bible related to your own personal demons possibly (but probably not) made manifest.
I don't believe there is a 'Devil' any more than i believe there is a 'God'.
Interestingly the meaning of Satan is Enemy in Anglo-Saxon, so not surprising that the Church and organised religion have used it as a person not a word!
the way i see it is that the devil is a generic term , a face or personality that man needs to acribe certain qualities to
it is a face to an intangible quantityquaility
it may be temptation, it may be evil(also very vague and needing further breakdown), sometimes the aspect of trickery, of illusions, delusions, of corruption, of defilement, of decay, of pain, of punishment, or destruction, anarchy,disobedience,chaos,fear many many things, the darker aspects of being, and human psyche
it is a means to understand an aspect of human nature by externalising it, much like most poetry, metaphors and dream language uses
it may mean different things to different people, when opposed to a god figure it is about dichotomy, and the struggle between two opposing forces, a struggle that is eventually about balance
as duality implies polarities, to posit the quantity good, or light, there must be a bad/evil, dark to polarise it, else the duality breaks down, essentially this duality is about all that is me and all that is not, it is the way one seperates ones self from the environment, it pervades in all spheres of life from , my name, my age, my family, my counrty, my race, my religion, my object, my land, all of which imply a you or they, that this my is the polar of ,that this my is seperate from
dichotomies pervade all of human life and activities, it is the origin of all boundaries, lines of seperation and borders
it is the very basis of western thought that cuts, seperates and analyses, that seeks to cut things into smaller and smaller peices, to classify and put into compartments
it is a system that seeks to understand the universe through exclusion rather than inclusion, juxtaposition and incorporation
it is based eventually on the judeo-christian concept of time being linear, that there is a beginning and and an end, which necissitates good and evil, as forces that are the basis of life
the concept of a devil as opposed to a god , a dualistic understanding of the universe being thus seperated is less common in eastern understandings of the universe, owing primarily to the cyclical understanding of time, so one doesnt need good and evil, as moral quantities
it does away completely with the idea of morality and in some cases god and self even
yes there are demons and such beings known to exist even in eastern systems, yet they are not seen so much as a seperated division from angels or devas and such but as being part of the same field of being, of existence, that they too are players, and puppets in a larger game, that they are aspects of existence that are coexistent and inseperable from all
also there is another way to look at this matter, if one posits god as being the reason for reasons, the first without begining or end, the cause of all causes itself having no cause, then all must exist and be in the field of god, there cannot be duality
for faith to be a valid quantity there cannot be two
there can only be one, and all must necessarily be from that one,
seperateness and dichotomies, duality then being the basis of all illusion
also it is about figures and grounds, all dualities,
black figure against white ground, is interchangable with white figure on black ground, implying thsat it is a matter of perspective and relative spacetimecausation coordinates, that determines all value in duality
when cotton is rare it becomes dear and when it is plenty its price reduces, these matters are spacetimecausation bound, and within the playfield
good and evil are also like that , as sometimes good appears to be evil and evil appears to be good, it is from point of view being within the field of play
not being able to see the forests for the trees so to speak
Here is some of the history of Satan/the Devil
" The creation story found in the book of Genesis reports that a serpent tempted Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. In the Jewish tradition, the serpent was always taken to be literally a snake only. The story tells us the origin of how the snake lost its legs. Later Christian theologies interpreted this serpent to be Satan, though, to the point where many Christians are unaware that the actual Hebrew text does not identify the serpent as Satan nor as the devil. The identification of the snake with Satan is found in the Christian version of the translation of the Torah, in Genesis 3:15 of the 'Old Testament', where God says that the offspring of the woman, will crush the serpent's head. (The Hebrew original text of Genesis 3:15 says:"I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your offsprings and hers; They shall strike at your head, And you shall strike at their heel.") This mistranslation is then understood by Christianity to be 'confirmed' by the New Testament as Romans 16:20 says, "And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly". In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Satan is one of humanity's three enemies, along with sin and death (in some other forms of Christianity the other two enemies of mankind are "the world" [2], and self, which is to be taken as man's natural tendency to sin);"
The term advisory over christianity's history has evolved much further than the old testaments view original discussion on the topic. The current views about the devil come from different times and different texts to give the image of a real entity called Satan.
Furthermore, "They generally see the serpent in the Garden of Eden, Lucifer, and Satan as unrelated entities, the serpent merely a snake, Lucifer a mortal king, and Satan an angel in Yahweh's court. According to this perspective, Jews adopted the idea of a "prince of darkness" from Zoroastrianism while in captivity in Babylon. This concept was then read into Old Testament texts. The Devil as an evil being on a cosmic scale doesn't appear in the Bible until the New Testament. This concept then continued to develop as Christianity itself grew and developed."
In other words modern day views of the Devil were not constant and were based off of the evolution of a particular faith. So to believe in the great Satan one would have to believe in its polar opposite that created it.
*selected quotes on the topic come from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_in_Christianity*
I think that the Devil was born of all hearts that have evil in that that means all hearts.
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birra Venerable Sire (132) Posts: 463 Honor: 0 [ Give / Take ] |
If you don't believe in a divine good, then it's tough to believe in a divine evil.
If there is no heaven, how can there be a hell?
I won't go into my personal views - but to me there can't be one without the other, and if you don't believe in one, how can the other exist?
The Devil/Satan and Lucifer are two seperate entities!! The Bible was misread. Lucifer was the first Fallen Angel, because he was the first to stand up against God and challenge his beliefs. The Devil, as said above countless times, can either be physical or can represent a more psychological aspect for humans, such as a form of temptation and an obstacle to overcome to reach a divine state. He represents what sin is, or what is evil. Lucifer however is not dark, nor evil, he was merely a rebel in a sorts and because God could not allow there to be controversy in Paradise, he banished him to Hell. Lucifer is a pretty nice guy in my opinion, he takes in those who are rejected by God. God is a hypocrite, he says all are his children and all will be forgiven of their sins (why else would he sacrifice his only son?). Then why is it that there is a Hell at all? If you are forgiven, then you earn a first class ticket to the clouds above. Hell was intended to weed out those who would appose God, those who do not follow his religion. But if God really is the creator and he wants everyone to like him and follow only him, then why did he give humans choices? If God really wanted to, he could just wipe out all other religions. But he doesn't, he wants to see who will choose him. It is like being in grade school, you can either choose to join the bully or be the victim, but you can never be the bully, cuz there is always someone more powerful above you.
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birra Venerable Sire (132) Posts: 463 Honor: 0 [ Give / Take ] |
I won't go deep into it, but if you look at it like that... "god wants to see who will follow... like being the bully at school."
If you were an all-powerful, omnicient being, would you create intelligent life merely to play head games with them? See who will worship you the most?
Ok, that's off topic... but I point I needed to make...
iam with most on this one.... when feeling if you dont really belive in god at a christian standpoint then it would be hard to belive in satan......i dont belive in either i just know in life there is a balance and its just were you take it good/evil ......
AntiEveryone
what version if you please of the bible do you own........
in my personal opinion, the devil was created to give man something to blame his "evil doings" upon. how easy is it for someone to say : the devil made me do it. and (forgive me if i offend) the christian religion monopolized this. Anything that are in direct conflict with their views are "from the devil" no matter how innocent and unrelated it might be. That's also were they started capitalizing on hell.
The word hell in its original greek context means "Hole in the ground" it doesnt mention anything of burning fires, tormented souls and nasty demons. So where it is mentioned that Lucifer were cast down into hell, it merely meant that he was killed and buried. I mean, if ure as autocratic as the God in the old testament, why the hell would u want to leave someone alive who would ruin ur great plans? Look at the world religions today, according to the christian faith all non-believers worship Satan. If that is the true case, what satisfaction does it bring god?
I really meant no offense with the above, its merely my own personal point of view
*mouth drops* wow what an excellent thread clix. ive never even really stopped to take the time & think about that before. i was raised in a semi-religious home & always assumed that there was such a thing as the devil. seeing as how i grew up hearing "the devil will get you for all the bad things youve done". hmmm i guess that makes me naive on the subject & that i need to take time to sit & think about that......
The Devil is a title given to a supernatural entity, who, in most interpretations of the Abrahamic faiths, is the central embodiment of evil. This entity is commonly referred to by a variety of names, including Satan, Asmodai, Beelzebub, Lucifer and/or Mephistopheles. In classic demonology, however, each of these alternate names refers to a specific supernatural entity.
==Etymology==hail satan The English word devil derives via Middle English devel and Old English dēofol and Latin Diábolus, from Late Greek language Diabolos, meaning, slanderer, from diaballein, to slander: dia-, across + ballein, to hurl (scriptural loan-translation of Hebrew satan). Jerome re-introduced Satan in the Latin Bibles (and thus in the European translations that followed), and English translators have used both in different measures. In the Vulgate, as had been the Greek usage, diabolus and dæmon were distinct, but they seem to have merged semantically in English and other Germanic languages.
I think the belief in one almost dictates the belief in some form of the other
Anti-Everyone: I am glad my post made you run for your bible, it seems like you had fun; of course I am aware of the various verses in Christian bibles but it doesn't discount my point. In fact, several here have also made it: it's all about interpretation. Is the "beast" America? Can't anyone be a devil by Latin definition? (In fact it seems pretty clear that early Christians thought the emperor of Rome ruled hell; probably had something to do with those pesky lions)
The philosopher and catholic scholar St. Anselm gives the best proof that satan/the devil/the boogey man does not exist as a separate entity from what you might already call God.
Birra makes a good point.
Mes chers frères, n'oubliez jamais, quand vous entendrez vanter le progrès des lumières, que la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!
(My dear brothers, never forget, when you intend to praise the progress of the lights, that most beautiful of the tricks of the devil is to persuade you that there does not exist!)
Le Spleen de Paris written by Charles Baudelaire
Just about every culture has had a figure that was evil and the cause of the evil in the world. The ancient Greeks had a ruler of the underworld, which was referred to as Hades. No matter what term is exactly used, there is a "devil" in every culture's lore or religion.
I decided to do an online search to see what other cultures had to say about a devil. I found the following information on Wikipedia.
"The Devil is a title given to a supernatural entity, who, in most interpretations of the Abrahamic faiths, is the central embodiment of evil. This entity is commonly referred to by a variety of names, including Satan, Asmodai, Beelzebub, Lucifer and/or Mephistopheles. In classic demonology, however, each of these alternate names refers to a specific supernatural entity."
...
Edited. Next time, please paraphrase in your own words and place a link to the article.
Thanks.
STABB
hades my have been god of the underworld; however, he is in no way considered evil or even loosely associated with the 'devil'. zues himself would be closer to evil then hades after all he did rape all those women. even in the norse panthion the goddess of death hel is not concidered evil. the god from that panthion more associated with the 'devil' is loki the trickster.
there is a 'trickster' or 'tempter' in all culters however, most are seen as neutral beings neither good or evil. even the buddist beliefs have devils and demons. but they are seen as preditors and punishers of wrong doers not the sorce of the wrong itself.
Whether yours is heaven, nirvana, jannah, valhalla, or whatever term you give to the "after" that you assign beyond this life, the "devil" is the manifestation of that which keeps you separated from your god(s), your heaven, your reward.
Do you believe in "sin?" Bad "karma?" "Immoral behavior?" That is the devil. It has to be..eastern faiths don't focus so much on a devil figure...sin is not a thing that you must avoid because it is thrust upon you by an evil being. It is the immoral behavior we have the capacity to commit; an important distinction.
So, for the devil to work, it must be a metaphor for that which we must not choose in order to reach fulfillment.
By this definition, the devil cannot be the Satan of Satanism, so please do not message me; I get it.
Seeings I am a wiccan I do not believe in the christian God nor Satan but rather in a good force and a bad force
i must contest with you. being a wiccan you should NOT believe in "good and bad forces" wicca is a nature bassed religion and in nature there is no inherant 'good' or 'bad' it is all nutral and it all gives and takes in some form or another.
as for the devil. in order for there to be an actual being of evil in this world then there would have to be some inherant evil in nature, and there is not
kudos to most of you. as i believe that an EDUCATED argument, is the only argument worth the time of debate. if you take the time to learn of what you believe/dont believe, you then have the ability to have an opinion.
in answer to the question: you can not possibly beleive in one not the other.
I will stay out of the debate and simply state my personal opinion. It is not meant to be taken as fact it's only what I believe.
I believe there are two sides to everything equal and opposite force that reside in all things large and small. I'm not adverse to the idea that there is one main force of good that many have chosen to refer to as "God" but I believe that there is probably and equally powerful force of evil, which I think many choose to think of as the "Devil".
That's my two cents... for what it's worth.
Perhaps...it comes into being equipped with form...as long as it holds form it endures..I mean if it has a form, it feeds does it not? Then it grows big....but if you look into it, research it, investigate it, this evil spirit, devil, satan, lucifer, which has no form or it's own relinquishes it's grip on form and take to flight....
U know me, I can't find myself not to believe in the envitable. I know some ppl have strong views about this thread and I respect that. I hope that my opinion can be respected as well. I just feel like it should be hard to say one thing exists but another. As long as I live and breathe on this earth I will always believe in the unbelieveable.
I see the Devil to just represent the opposite of God. In just about every religion you will find something to represent the polar opposites in life. Good and Evil, Life and Death, Black and White. God and the Devil, as I see it, are just Christianity's characters to represent these polar opposites.
For me, when I hear people referring to "the devil", since I am one of the non-believers, I usually think of just something bad. As in a bad situation or event. My way of rationalizing has created this word linkage for me: "Devil = Evil = Bad = Negative". Quite often, I hear people saying things like: "The Devil made me do it!" or "That person must be Devil."
To me, I believe we have free will and can choose to either do good or do bad. As we grow into adults, we are shaped by our experiences. Those who obey and like to get praised for their actions usually turn out to be religious, whereas people who do misdeeds and gain pleasure from other people's misfortune and suffering tend to be labelled as Devil worshippers and such and tend to live their lives accordingly.
I feel everyone has the right to live as they see fit, yet, as I see it, balance must be kept or chaos will ensue. :)
I agree with Jens, it's all about the balance. If you believe in the 'forces', you have to take the good with the bad, you cannot simply say there is only one side, there is both. Yin is nothing without Yang. You cannot have a positive, but no negative.
Hum..okay time for me to get flamm here, but..
Anyway
I was a catholic for a while, a protestant, a baptist and a Jehovah witness so I think I can make a comment and state some fact, also I studied the bible for over 14 years, (I wont repeat the previous post enumerate the list of the biblicale vers) so in all this time and after all these years of reseach and study I manage to figure out that logicly satan or devil is only a title to state the creature's position towards God, and that in the beganing it was the most beautiful angel created and consider as beautiful as jewels. So one can woship a title if one wants to but I kind a feel its not worh my time to care about a title .
The intent of the Devil was to balance out the beliefs for christians, there is always has to be a balance. The devil is a concept the christians made up. Please understand this is my opinion only, for those that believe in both that is there choice. Hence the reason for the freedom of religion. But the concept of the devil isnt most believe.
The time of pagans and their worships of the gods and goddess, and the time of the inquistions and the changing of the old religion to the new and the witch trails came about. They needed something to exuse. So in order to give more strength to the christain faith a fallen angel was invented. I don't believe in either.
For me there is no devil, however in my concept of the devil he would be the horned one..hern the hunter. Male and Female..a balance. To all of nature and the world there needs to be a balance. Yin/Yang, good and evil..hence god and devil.
Take away the christainity of the devil and you will discover he is not what is or what was led to believe he is or was suppose to represent.
Again...This is my belief.
a few sites one may want to check out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil
http://www.red-ice.net/specialreports/2006/01jan/devil.html
Please edit if this is to much, this is not my original writings but some excerpts from a site. The site is listed below.
The Devil was actually "born" over a period from about the year 250 AD to 450 AD although bits and pieces have been added to the legend since then. It is a popular illusion that "the Devil", otherwise known as Satan, is an ancient Biblical character that has been with mankind since the beginning, but this simply is not so. Undoubtedly evil, as a quality of human behaviour, has existed as an inherent capability ever since the human species first evolved (according to palaeontologists perhaps some four million years ago); but the Devil and Satan are far more recent inventions.
The concept of the Devil as it has become known to us was fabricated by early Christians in order to frighten anybody who dared to question the emerging "orthodox" version of Christianity. Before this time, the Devil as we know the figure today did not exist. Devils, in the plural, were of course believed in from the earliest of times, and in many cultures under many different names. Every culture known to us has its own family or line-up of gods, and these are generally divided between good spirits and evil spirits or demons. But not until the advent of later Judaism and early Christianity was there postulated an opposite to the single male god in the form of a chief demon, Satan or the Devil.
Although Satan is mentioned in the ancient scrolls of the Talmud that eventually became the backbone of the Bible's Old Testament, this Satan is not the Devil. In ancient Hebrew, "Satan" simply meant "adversary" or "enemy", and throughout the Old Testament the term is usually applied to a purely human adversary or oppressor. In only three cases is the word used to denote some kind of evil spirit, and even these do not relate to a character anything like the Christian Devil. In Zechariah iii, Satan is nothing more than a character in a vision, having no actuality; in Job i,2, he is a character in a parable, while in 1 Chronicles xxi,1, he is merely the personification of King David's anger against adversity. Even in the New Testament when Jesus is reported as saying "Get thee behind me Satan" it is clear that he was addressing only his own very human doubts and waverings.
Technically, within the true meaning of the word, anyone who opposes Israel is a Satan. Hitler was a Satan: so was Herod: so too was Great Britain when its government opposed a separate State of Israel in the earlier part of the twentieth century, and so was Saddam Hussein more recently. In its proper usage, the word applies more to politics than to spiritual matters.
Many of the attributes today associated with the Devil are the legacy of earlier religions that the Christian church was anxious to stamp out. For example, there is Herne the Hunter (who incidentally is mentioned by Shakespeare in "The Merry Wives of Windsor" iv,4). Herne is usually depicted as a wild huntsman wearing a helmet adorned with the antlers of a stag. This is just one of the many regional names for the archetypal Horned God, the male consort of the Nature Goddess. In other areas he was given other names, such as Dianus (Latin), or Cernunnos (Celtic). In Guernsey he was called Hou; in the Basque country, Janicot; in Mediterranean regions, Pan. These god-forms were originally perceived as friendly, noble and beneficent male nature spirits, often envisaged as wearing horned helmets and other animal adornments, or as actually being compounded of part human and part animal.
http://www.demetercoven.4t.com/whats_new.html
Please take the time to read and research. Knowledge is power.
The idea of the Devil first came from Set. Set was the first religion, even before that of Paganism - or so I've read.
i beleive that the concept of the "devil" came about is a way to maintain order.the concepts of a lake of fire , and your soul burning for all eternity can be quite terrifying if you put a lot of stock in it.
the devil is just a means to try and control what people think and how they act.
oh ......he is real...but it also depends on what version you believe in.. the whole big bang theory or the god theory....
i have had seen the devil and its not pretty he can change shapes n forms dramaticly
sevenn
"The DEVIL IS NOT BASED IN THE BIBLE ANYWHERE....I challenge you to demonstrate it..."
That is what you said, and I effectively showed you that indeed the devils is based in the bible
"my bible" no, on the contrary I do not own a bible, I am not christian. But I did what you asked me to do, no need to get snippy when someone calls you out and lists the things you defied them to find.
And yes, I do enjoy it. :)
Exactly, and it works too doesn't it?
on a large number of the population.
Yes, I did.
what has the world come to??
of course religion is at least in part based on control, and if it isn't what a coincidence. With religion one could get an army or ignorant people to jump off a cliff...or drink "the kool aid"
With all the horrible things that have happened in the last couple of years, Twin Towers, Asian Tsunami, hurricane Katrina, it is easier to believe in a devil that is "making it happen" rather than a god that is "letting it happen." People tend to rationalize that there must be no god because if there was one, he wouldn't let these things happen.
but if that is the case then surely there must be no Devil either?
ravenna052199
EXACTLY...it is "easy"
no one actually wants to use their brain.
we should know by now that the "easy" thought that comes to mind, the one that can just be attributed to "greater forces of a divine nature"
does not adequately explain, anything. It is a quick fix answer that we are all expected to just nod our heads to. We de-evolve more and more every day.
Anti-everyone...ok...so you didn't pull out the bible and quote all those verses..WOW...if you memorized that is scary, if you just googled it, AGAIN you miss the point...the deeper more important point; so you followed my challenge and task...beautiful...and look at the thread that has been inspired. Look at the discussion sparked between a very simple point and dissent; it's amazing, fruitful and bneficial to most.
My opinion remains the same, the "devil" is myth and does not equate to Satan except through sociological error. I am really loving this thread though =)
surely, if one was to believe that the Devil is the one and only divine being or deity, then the devil is God - albeit a rather evil god. so we are back to the original claim, you cannot believe in the Devil, but not God. not that i believe in either, but if i did, i would apply some reason to my belief.
I don't think what we label things really matter,because there is a universal code with out one u cannot have the other.Like positive and negative energy,a yin and yan it really doesn't matter what label the religions put on it to control our minds,because its actually inevitable a negative and positive force.Its a balance like i said i don't think labels really matter.LOL
I see your point but religion boils these universal concepts down into beings, entities. One good and one Evil.
with reference to the forms/names/identities posited ted as the devil or the anti god paradigm, satan, lucifer, beelzebub, and so on, they are perhaps gods from the time before it was decided to let go of the so called false gods and embrace the one true god as begins with judeo-christian theology and finds its logical end in islam
there is an ineteresting example from eastern texts, in the ramayan , the sanskrit epis which roughly about the battle between rama(god incarnate) and ravana(demon) the king of lanka, although ravan is enemy to ram and in general all of the universe and so on, by his being a good king of lanka, he is treated as a god figure by the citizens of lanka, and to this day ther are cults that worship ravana
the point here being that the polarities and dichotomies ;friend/enemy, good/bad, god/devil are very relativistically determined and must be viewed through a broader framework of ideation, wider grounds that encompass historicity, and relative relationships that the figures/beings/persons have had with the environment and how changes in that environment/field have moulded their identities deities/demons/gods are also subject to reinvention and reinterpretation very much like a story changes as it is said by different tellels at different times and in different contexts
without a clear understanding of context and relative meanings of symbols and significations, one necessarily runs into errors in ones discurcive processes
it becomes about something versus something else, something pitted against something else
the thread of understanding then degenerates, devolves so to speak and becomes at best ruminating and at worst outright fascism
balance and karma, there must be evil if there is to be any good
God only created us. He gave us what we would need to survive and basically let us do whatever we wanted. The Earth however is unresponsible for what it does. Natural Disasters are outside of Man's power, therefore outside God's reign of influence. God lets bad stuff happen to us because it is his will. If the world were a perfect place, then there would be no need for there to be a Heaven and no reason to stive for 'good'. You're all getting on about how the Devil is evil and all, but really he's just the balance.
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Cartomancer Arch Sire (194) Posts: 1,252 Honor: 31,170 [ Give / Take ] |
Sevenn is absolutely right. And this two cents is from someone majoing in Theological Education.
The Devil is a metaphor. The Devil being the reigning king in Hell is also an idea from Christian literature, other literature outside of The Bible, and several interpretations along the way.
Christianity is BROAD, and there are too many sects to count with varying beliefs- some of them getting farther and farther away from The Bible as they've been influenced over time by this other literature and varying points of view.
I say, step away from the stories invented along the way... Even the use of the word 'Satan' has several different meanings in the Hebrew Bible.
There are MANY words in the English language that are used to describe different things- and the same goes for 'devil' and 'Satan' in The Bible. Find out for yourself, not just what you've 'heard', or even what some religions believe.
This was my point to begin with when I said "Devil" ...... and from the looks of thread people understood what I meant and, I want to say I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts and opinions on this subject. It helps me understand where people are coming from and why they sometimes say the things they do. I appreciate your interest.
I agree...one of the more interesting and enjoyable threads yet.
As it shows everyone has their own theories and beliefs. It does stand to reason why such icons, symbols exist or taught to us as children. It is a form of control. Until we become free thinkers and believe what is right for us. We will always be forced into believing such things. Open your mind up, what is right for one may not be right for another. We as a society shouldn't dictate what others should or shouldn't believe. To each his or her own.
i totally agree with imagesinwords.
The Christain beliefs very amon them. Due most partly to how people are taught to believe since they were children and adding in their own interpretations.
Each person interpretes what one reads and studies differently. Just like she said the word Satan has a lot of different meanings i the bible.
I do however agree that u cannot believe in the devil unless u believe in God.
I heard a quote once, I dont know who said it, but ive always remembered it
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist."
I just wanted to share it.
When I first read the thread I thought I knew what I believed. Then I was challenged to "prove" my belief and all I can think of is what I was taught not what I have researched or learned on my own. Thank you for opening the subject as this is something I need to give some thought to.
I agree that the way you are brought up (especially in a religious family) plays a part in your beliefs. At a young age you are taught what to think and growing up thats what you take as your own beliefs. I was raised by catholics, but they weren't devote. They simply took the religion as their own, because that was the religion they grew up knowing. But growing up, I wasn't exposed to it. True, I went to CCD for a year, but they didn't like me very much there :) I had too many questions to ask and I seemed to find the flaws and holes in the Bible stories I was read. So instead of religion being pounded into my head, I went out and researched it on my own, and I mean every religion. I think if you can look at it from a stand point where you have no faith in it, you can look at it more clearly and see it overall. People who hold their faiths close and dear seem to be blinded and cannot look at it any other way. They are narrow minded. Perhaps we have it all wrong. heh, imagine a world were God is Evil and the Devil is Good...
Personally I'm not a fan of Satan or God, but I do love Lucifer :)
Every good fiction depends upon the conflict created by Good versus Evil. Without one or the other, good fiction cannot exist.
Enjoy the fiction, folks.
Fiction or not I value everyone's opinion no one is more important than the other...
My remark re: "fiction" had nothing to do with others' opinions and everything to do with the topic of this thread. Ironically, my meaning was misunderstood by the very person whose question I was answering.
what may be fiction to you might be truth to others...perhaps we are misunderstanding each other can we should message in private to clear the misunderstanding?
Stating my opinion does not undermine those of others. Why have you chosen to assume it does?
You are welcome to message privately, as you suggested.
What 'fiction' are you talking about? Stories people have told, or are you implying that the Bible and like works are works of 'fiction'?
I believe "The Devil..." (see forum topic) to be a fiction: the requisite "bad guy" to fight against the "good guy", the needed Conflict element of any workable fiction.
"The Devil" is one of the arch dukes of hell (... or one of the Fallen...) along with "Satan, Asmodeus, Balial and many others. Lucifer is the ruler of Hell.
the one major misconception of most of the people on the planet is that (Lucifer, Satan, and the Devil) are one in the same. this is not true.
they are 3 separate Angels or entities.
The greatest gift God gave man was "Free Will".
that means you live your life the way you want to live it without Gods interference. believe or worship who ever you want. God dose not care what religion you choose to follow, only that you love one another and treat people how you would like to be treated. That is the only thing God wants from you.
The Host of Hell are just doing Gods work. they are offering you a choice of good and evil.
Love God.............not Religion.
i think that if you believe in the classic satan (lucifer once an angel, then became "fairest and fallen") then logically you must (or rather, are likely to) believe in god.
now if you believe in a not so common "devil" then i have no idea...
I would have to say that you cannot believe in one without having a belief in the other. There cannot be light without darkness and vice versa. When you are talking about extremes such as this there has to be something there to maintain the balance.
Is there a possibility that there is no such thing as balance? That it is merely a human creation to show differences?
There has to be balance. We wouldn't be able to define good if we didn't have something to point at and say its bad.
godevil has a good point.
Perhaps the only truly perhaps at least part of the whole "balance" thing is somewhat manufactured. One has to be semi intelligent to keep complete balance in their lives.
Though at the same time as ive said, it is so easy to blame god and the devil for anything and everything.
Humans don't create something from nothing. We're giving materials to create from. So couldn't you say that we were given by god and the devil the materials to create the balance.
belief does not have to be logical, nor does it need to be based on fact. in fact, considering that most religions contadict each other to some extent at least, and they cannot all be correct, it follows that belief most certainly is not based on fact. in which case, you can belive whatever you want to believe (I belive in Deus ex Machina) but the only way we are ever going to settle this discussion is if we actually ask someone who does not believe in god, but does believe in the Devil.
Has anyone considered the possibility that God and the Devil are merely figments of our imagination? That back in the day, a group of people got together and talked about how they could get people to believe in something so much that it gave them power to draw from?
It's been proven that humans react more out of fear. Fear of God's wrath controls many people. How much of that is actually due to the Devil?
ravenna052199
um...sorry but, ever heard of a thing called imagination?? we can and DO create things out of the apparent blue.
It's the one thing humans are best at and no one can top :)
are you sure? maybe we are all figments of the imagination of some other being. maybe god, maybe devil, maybe a vast computer, or maybe a caterpillar - who knows?
We were given an imagination, that is the material that we use to create things out of the blue.
That is your interpretation, one must not mistake their personal beliefs with what is indisputable fact.
In the words of Douglas Adams "He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it."
Also...
Germaine Greer
• Human beings have an inalienable right to invent themselves.
I might as well work with this... Also in the words of Douglas Adams, "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."
Anti - there are no irrefutable facts. just because something is consensually accepted, does not necessarily make it true. everything is refutable.