The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

*cough, cough* since we ended on an interesting note, let's resume with the real question posed before:

First if you come here just to talk about only what you do- leave; your post is not needed.

If you come to bitch whine or moan about your coven- leave; this is not the place you have a journal for a reason.

This is a valid VR discussion, does not belong in my journal because I want to TALK about this.

It seems the coven of Purgatory has many people upset with the ethics of inductions and what should be morally correct vs. what the rules are.

I think this is an important discussion to have since my own name has been thrown around by many people from the misconception of what it is I am actually doing and it’s over all purpose for me, my coven and the over all Vampire Rave ideal.

There is much “hot- headedness” going on right now, so let’s just start with what I stated.

I think the what is pissing people off is that its more of a what THEY WANT vs. what the Masters are allowed to do.

Suck it up or leave, people.

its a choice gain by work and level, with time and effort, its a priviledge to choose gain by anyone who do the effrort and work to reach Sire, to choose to be or not be force induct, and if that same Sire becomes Coven Master then it is still their choice to force or not. As it is a choice gain, like your boss gain his/her choice of office, but you dont, you take what is given, till you gain a higher position.

I cannot follow what you said to save my life...

Kayman sorry to interven, my mom mearly say that unless you got the rank to give the orders, or own the place, then you have to comply with its staff and sub-ruler.

And I think its a good exemple...lol I am not biase, I just agree.

I just could not follow that to save my ever lovin LIFE.

It reminded me of the comparison videos they show you in science class of the web made by the sober spider and then the one made by the spider on Meth.

No offense...

But yeah. It's an "I'm bigger than you and I said so," kind of game.

There is a hierarchy here that people do forget

Prince
Regent/Master Vamps
Administration
Sire
Everyone else...

It is not a democracy except in the covens that allow for that.

The ability to choose whether or not you are put into a coven or house is not a right. It is a privilege you must earn. And yes, you can be outranked on VR, just like you can be outranked in real life. But that's obviously not the only reason people force induct. After all, they have societies to run.

None taken Kayman and I know my mom wont take ether lol.

Liebe this is true, its a hierarchy, not a democratie, as Vampire Rave, belongs to one person only, and that person has allowed some to make sure his rules, views, are respected.

VR is like a big house, you enter, you show respect by followihg the rules, if the owner tells you to take off your shoes, to you, then anothe rperson comes in and dont take them off, will yu tell the owner: I wont do it cause you force me and not give me a choice but this person has a choice so no

You wont, you'll comply, why? cause its not your house, just like vr, its not your vr, its Cancer's VR.

a lot of the times coven and house membes seem to forget one thing how dose this person help m,y coven or house. yet still induct a person any way even though they refuse to do any thing. i've been there several times yet there has only been a few that i have wanted to be in. mostly since the ones that i have been in have outragiuos rules that are not hard to follow but just insit on makeing point that people have no live other then one here

Well said.

I do very much favor the induction system. It allows those members who think this like any other forum space such as otherkin.net or what ever else they may be apart of that they contribute as equal members always. This is not the case. Vampire Rave operates on a Heirarchy system. This is obvious in the House, Covens and rating system. The Status Tables are here for a reason.

Forcing inductions of membership who forget this, who have profiles stating that they don't want to be inducted, or that they don't have anything in common with the vampire life style, are nothing more then sad individuals who cannot contribute to the general nature of what this site can provide.

We do not have to induct, we do not have to participate. But to do so, means to play the game, to play the social structures like we should be doing in life anyway. So I will continue to induct those who may be useful, or not depending on how they present themselves.

As to me they are always judged on content, information, and presentation of what they have presented here. The newer membership will be inducted so long as I have the means to do so.

also another things that house and coven masters seem to for get this is a vampire site not some thing else and vampires live un higherichys. i have been in a few covens where the masters have to make sure that every thing is ok with each other instead of like it is i am god my word is youre law follow it.
instead they just is this ok with every one i think its a crock of

ive yet to see one coven that states that some what

. . . This is the point where I suddenly imagine a vampire democracy. A tiny little parliament voting on blood-drinking bylaws, and the number of vampires allowed to claim residency in one cemetary . . . *snicker*

with the vampires there is no democracy its what i say goes and thats they dont ask dont debate it just do it

Vashti, it would be pretty weird...I imagine the scene...several vampires, new one who just are as young as a child in the vampire life, enters the big house and then say: Okay you the owner of the house and elders and owner of the land, you have no say, we choose to go in this cemetary, and in this part of town, its our choice and you have no say....

Not sure they would last long...or if even the town would last...

in the vampire heircy that would get you killed instantanously. they dont like people trying to tear them down.

If I may, as I am still technically a "noob", put my two cents in?

Authority is as all of you have stated, a fact of life, both here and in the real. I for one came here as you all know by now I hope, for the comradery. I have serious fun climbing the ranks of this site, playing the games and talking with peers to gain both influence and points.

I still say run a age group poll, just to prove a point on how many complainers are adolescent more than adult.

If they are complaining that much, I say they should climb the ranks high enough to become a Sire themselves, then make a better Coven then they are in.

I love it here, like I have stated before, drama is drama, leave it at the door. Idol gossip will get you nowhere fast.

I thankyou for listening.

Well, that was a fun diversion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people here hate Covens and Houses (and forced induction)just because they feel the need to fight the establishment. Any establishment. They're the 'rebels without a cause' who not only want to buck the rules, but feel free to insult and defame both the Societies, and the people within, that chose to induct them.

They act as though the societies are not made up of real people just like them. After all, when you insult a house or coven, you are personally insulting every person in it. The question is, is inducting a person against their will such a huge offence (to whatever moral/personal code they adhere to), that it deserves such a response?

By the way, thank you Soulshroude for such a pleasant and reasonable response. It's a refreshing diversion from heated debate. :) I think there has been an age group poll, but how could we do a poll of complainers? I doubt most of them would admit to it.

I am sorry, this may have been posted on the earlier thread, but I have add my two sense....

Vampire Rave as far as I can tell was/is based on a vampiric society correct? Does that not mean that vampiric rule still applies, I would think so... Does a vampire ASK if the person that he/she bites wants to become a vampire. Not always, and those that do are known as familiars. And upon being bitten by a vampire you are for all intended purposes inducted into that vampire's house, coven, clan, whatever... This is going by local lore and by that I do not even totally agree with the idea that I sire should have the ability to LEAVE the house. But I also understand that this is based upon a MODERN vampire society, so if you do not like the house you are in then make sire and leave... end of story in my opinion.

I will check back later.

Thankyou Vashti for that comment...

For you fyrestrike, it does seem as though this site is a bit of a, how do you say, game of Bloodlines.

From the Prince of the city, or site in this case, down to the fledglings, or familiars waiting to be turned...Aka, Sired. The favor won and lost, the status situation...All fun, fine and dandy...But then as I will call it the Camarilla of the site...For listening reasons only mind you...Have their Houses and Covens, you then have the shall we say Sabbat coming in and leaving a web of drama in their wake. From the Anarchs, to the Ventrue...From the Tremere, to the Gangrel..Tzimitse, to the Ravnos...Witches, Dragons, Loupe Garou...One big happy F'n family. It is a very fun site, but some on the site believe that some of it is all to real.

There is a big differance between role playing, and life. As this is online, those that tend to rp a bit too much believe that this site is a way for them to hone their skills.

For those of us who know fantasy from reality, it is a very good way for us to just sit back, relax after a hard days/nights work, and take in the site when it is at its best.

I am sure that by now, the prince is looking at all the moaning, ragging...With eyebrow raised. Probably chuckling to himself...Who knows.

Fun site though is it not??

Make the best of it what ever you do. Either you are a joiner or a complainer...Read the Purgatory thread if you are the complainer...LMAO!!

Again, follow a vampiric society, they are forced into a society... and I agree there are rules and regulations everywhere... Did you know that it is against the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) to have anal sex. There are weird laws everywhere, but they are laws and they have to be followed. Cancer has his reasons for setting them and I will not second guess my prince.

Personally I like the idea of forced inductions, especially for newbies. It gives a sense of being wanted, as in, we wanted you enough to take you without your permission. And it gives a good opportunity to learn how houses/covens work. I have to admit when I read the VR Manual on inductions it was one of the reasons I joined this site, so that I could have a forced induction. Then of course that never happened for me (not that I have anything against my coven which I love to bits!). So I feel like I missed out on some important VR experience there. Heh.

Very well said Fyrestrike, I share the same allegiance as you...Whom ever the Prince is of the city that I inhabit. I am there for the Prince, the name, no the person as I am a patriot that stands for his city, or site. Call me old fashioned.

The people who are forcing people to join their coven or house, some of them would probably act the same way as the people they are forcing in, if it was turned around on them, i just think that the main reason that people are complaining is because they do not want to be forced to do something that they do not want to do, but forced inductions are not against the rules, what coven masters has to decide is if they want a coven full of people that get along or a coven full of people that just sit their and make them favors while being blinded.

great, make sire and leave.... You were the one that joined either knowing that was a possibility or ,no offense to those that were forced who joined when that wasnt there, were too stupid to read the VR manual.

People often feel " forced " to do things they may not want to do. Sometimes on a daily basis. I.E. a job. They have a choice. They may either make the best of what they are offered , or they may leave and go somewhere else. The problem is , that no matter where you go , or what you do in life , this is just a fact of life. If someone isn't happy with the rules and regulations here on V.R. , they have a choice. Just as they chose to join , they may also choose to leave. If people aren't aware of the rule and regulations , perhaps they should have read them before joining and creating a profile.

It's not hard people. There are site rules, and then there are house/coven rules. If you do not like either of them, then get out of here. This site is not just to be of dominating sorts, it is a place to learn your boundaries, and learn from one another period! It has mostly entertainment value, and making Sire is the goal these days to have your own hole in the wall here on VR. What that Sire does with it is their own business. If they were not complying with VR rules, then they would not have been approved! So whether it is a democracy, or not just enjoy the ride! This is only the internet people, and I think you could either make your time on here enjoyable, or you could possibly act like the kid who never got picked for games. Be creative, and share your idea's. Meet, and greet in your Coven, and show appreciation to the ones who made this site possible.

I think you heard me wrong Fyrestrike, I am not one of the complainers...Not by far, I petitioned my House, I was not forced. I am quite happy where I am on the site as a whole. When I do make Sire, I do see new doors opening, but the last thing I wish to do is to leave my House. As they are family to me of a differant nature. My opologies for ruffling your feathers dear fellow.

"Ethics of inductions and what should be morally correct vs. what the rules are."

I don't steal, I don't kill, and I don't lie.

Ohh sorry... I was talking about real life.

Not a website that can be turned off and on with a click of a button. :)

One has to learn to cope with it......In life you may not get everything you want....however hard you may try you may not achieve what you really want.And this might be due to various reasons....reasons which no one can explain...So you have to cope with it....Same goes with the Covens and Houses....You have to learn to adjust to different environments....
Survival of the fitest and all.....
If its that unbearable(Which won't or shouldn't happen much) I'm pretty sure if you ask your master politely He/She will agree to let you go.....I'm saying this from experience...I got inducted into a coven first.I didn't want to be there so i requsted the master to trade me to a House which i wanted to be in....She being a sweetheart...traded me to one of the best houses in V.R....But as i was unable to gain the set amount of favor(I was offline for a long time.....Didn't have a comp where i was staying..) i got kicked out.....Later i got inducted to an another coven-The coven of stone guardians and guess what..I'm very happy here..Got a lot of good friends...

As you can see i got myself fucked royally......But at the end of the day i'm happy where i am...

I still say, if you do not like the game...Quit playing it.

It is easy for a lot of people to say if you dont like it quit because that must mean you like where you are at, but what if you were inducted into a coven that you did not like and the people treated you bad would you still feel the same way you do now? When you are in a house/coven you like their is nothing to complain about and you can sit around and tell people if they dont like it quit or make sire but if it was you in their possition you would probably complain too. Vampire rave has rules people has to follow them period but they still have the right to express how they feel, i always though house/covens were meant for people to get together to be a part of a group, but their cant be a group with people who do not want to be where they are...

I, personally, have no problem with it. It's like others have said on this thread, you knew what you were signing up for when you got yourself on this site. Hell, I prefer this sort of thing, to other sites, where I've tried to interact and met with stiff silence because I wasn't one of the 'regulars'. Nice for once to be in a place where people wanna meet you so bad they'll snatch you up.

I am not a fan of forced inductions, but the rules are the rules. If i was not already in a coven and was forced into one then i would give them a fair try. If after a period of time I was not happy there then I would be asking to be traded

As it was mentioned earlier Coven masters have the right to force induct. The question they should ask is are they force inducting for thier personal gain to get more members so they get more favours so they can try and get the highest rank, or are they trying to bring new members in for the good of the coven/house and the new member.

I say if its for the good of the member and your society then go ahead and force induct.

If u are doing it for getting favours to increase your coven/house's ratings then u need to step back and figure out why am I not getting members to join my coven. Could the reasons be that your societie's overall interests may not be what is for the population of VR.

I see in the forum posts that there are covens looking for members. that is another way to approach this.

For the Coven Masters that are thinking of forced inductions do u want happy people who will participate or do u just want favour whores. Thhink of what is best for your society

Well said sonnellion....

I do believe its in the VR manual stating that when you reach level 5 you will be inducted into a house or coven. Now most smart individuals such as myself read the manual upon joining so as I reached level 5 I looked at the houses and did a short list of the houses and covens I thought I would like to join, and then went to the coven on the top of my list. On the day I reached level 5 I was inducted into my coven.

So as much as there are forced inductions, you can choose as well. Just a matter of using the gray matter between your ears and stop complaining. Geez I hate the cry baby attitude of some people in here... if you don't like it then delete your damn profile and go to a site where you have more freedom! And stop annoying the rest of us!

No one was forced into having a Vampire Rave membership. You can't rightly walk into someone else's house and complain about the rules of their home. You can, leave.

Back to:

people upset with the ethics of inductions and what should be morally correct vs. what the rules are...

People are just not getting it (I know this isn't you Liebe, but something you are pointing out). What kind of ethics does a mythical vampire have? Then you have the people who say 'I'm not talking about vampires, we're real people'.... DUDE... again, NOT 'PeopleRave.com' but VAMPIRERAVE.com.

To change the vampire themes on this site would be to take away it's entire meaning. This is far more than 'The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory' here. It's evoloved, and will continue to do so. At any time, those who are not digging the changes can choose to not log on anymore.

No one has a leg to stand on arguing that they are not playing a game and don't like being compared to vampires. You log in here, you ARE playing a game. You are leveling up to gain these pretend vampy titles to gain 'powers'. Somehow, you just can't seem to spoon feed that to people.

It just truly boggles my mind that any of these people can sit and enjoy a vampire film or book. It is hypocricy. It is black, red, blood-sucking, death. Take a bite. And it's not REAL. Not this aspect of VR.

I am here having a good time. Back to my life outside of cyberspace... I am against slavery (duh), and I walk the line. I live RIGHT. I 'play' a game to have a good time.

Why haven't I seen any of these anti-induction people boycotting vampire films in Hollywood or books at the library? Everyone here is labelled with one of 28 regular member titles or Admin tiltes. It's just fine and dandy to wear the title 'Sire'... but damned if you'll act like one. Don't come here to try and humanize this game. You're ruining it for the fans of vampire lore. We want a Vampire Rave. Looks like we win.

The day Cancer says he's taking away the vampire themes on this site is the day I wipe my ass with it. I just know that's not going to happen.

This site sure has GROWN since the Societies were implemented. The people who are having fun here totally outweigh this Woodstock crowd. It's not all happy, shiney people holding hands here.

And you can hate my guts for speaking out in this manner. I am confident. I stand strong because I have a House full of people that support me. They GET it. If I tortured them- this site would have heard something about it by now...

the only thing i dont get is, before you join here it says read the vr manual and i no cancer states in there what can happen, then it dose, and they act all offended, and its like im in a coven and happy as a clam, but for the ones who say i dont have time to do a coven or house they are busy, i can understand not bing able to met there requrments, and that is why they dont wish to do it, but the ones who say they dont have time and then i see 50 thouand things say how they hate it , what happne to not having the time is what i wonder

do you guys work with people who are not able to met the requirments, for ligmante reasons and ask to leave , because they dont want to bring down the coven do you allow people to leave with a problem for something like that, iv just been cerious thats why im asking

I don't remember ever reading a book or watching a movie where the vampire asked or was crying with concern about choosing their prey. No morality problem there. This is a vampire site and based on vampire type rules, a game and all you need do is play along.

I've seen several ask about inducting and blinding new members while they go through an introduction or further membership process and they seem to feel it too is wrong. How many "New Vampires" ever walked straight onto the council of elders or whatever you want to call a ruling party?

New people be they vampires or members still could need to earn or prove themselves to the coven or house before being given access to all their information. IIt would depend on how that society is set up and the desires of it's master/members.

And with the new favor earning in effect- a lot more members are in Houses and Covens. I would love to see the number of members that were in them before, as to what they are today.

Its not a "Private" clubs anymore- they are more open to new members. The masters "hunt" for new blood/ favors makers. :) And I think it is great.

Some members on this site would never be in a House or Coven if this did not happen. And most have enjoyed the inducting. Now they are in a "group", a status symbol if you will.

You should be proud of the House or Coven you are in.

Back when I first joined the rave, I was inducted into a house without my permission being asked and I remember finding it sorta cool. I think it all boils down to perception and attitude. The idea of forced is there, but what does it really mean for your experience? Nothing. In a forced induction everyone wins, so to speak. You can still choose to participate or not. The only forced difference in your experience is a small icon in your profile. I've seen people posting in the previous thread that force induction does nothing for the coven because people aren't going to participate if force inducted. I did. Some who understand it do. And even if a forced member never clicks open his house or coven window, they still earn favor for that house every time they click on a new profile or page.


I think that taking a giant step backward and surveying the situation is needed for most. This really is no big deal. Nothing changes unless you want it to but the little icon under your name. And truly..what does angry whining usually get you.

If you don't like where you're at..request to go elsewhere. I liken it to the way parents deal with children. A child who asks politely for a cookie has a good chance of getting it. A child who screams at their parent demanding that they must have a cookie now..well, that child rarely gets what they're wanting.

*goes out to Costco and buys big girl panties by the case*

Its time to put on your big girl panties and deal~
This is the way it is.. if you think you can run a better website..feel free to try LOL

To: LIEBE,

I am of the belief that the issue with the coven of Purgatory, has less to with the induction process than it does with the slanderous remarks posted for all of vr to see...

It is simple, induction is a part of vr and that is just peachy, but I believe those who diparage others for what ever the reason are direct violation of the will of those that they are talking poorly about...

Mind you that this is only my thoughts on this issue, but it has created a big stir here...

Peace and Love, Love is the Law, Love under Will...333

Eh you know people will always complain about something. We're exploring another lifestyle of Vampires. If you're not into that, what are you doing on website that was made so we could eventually "catalog everything there is to be cataloged about Vampires." ?

Notice most of the time people accuse other's of being selfish and mean, is usually because they're not getting their way?

Yeah...

Slander implies that the words posted are not their own.

My understanding, and everything I have seen points to the sad fact that the words posted are indeed what the person has said publicly.

There is no slander involved.

Thank you for your response...I believe that slander was a incorrect word choice on my part, I believe that defimantion is more to what I believe it would be...sorry for the prior post...333

Then they did it themselves with their own words. People this is a public site, you don’t want it to come back you should not say it.

None of us are perfect we all have to live with silly things we have done. Sadly those in Purgatory are dealing with just this.

Is it breaking rule to repost something YOU posted- no as VR learned with our site being published on Something Awful.

Is it bad taste, well that depends on your view of the rule and your position in them.

from what I've notice, and I was not here for 2 years but more then a year alsmot 1 1/2, so I notice that force induction has ALWAYS been there and done, the only difference was that, it was more discret and when the "force inducted" cry and bitch and fight, they ended up ether kicked out, so bragging, trade, or blinded then deleted their account, I for one was guilty of deleting one of my account, becuase I wanted out, instead of asking I just start over.
It seem now the difference is that its more open, and even as a CM I did froce before I got all sorts of threath, up to been told that Dominars would disband my coven, so basicly now the only difference is that, when done, ppl ether scream yell try to find a way out, then end up deleting or in purgatory...Or...they accept it like a grown up and responsible person realising its what they sign up for, then discover that they were Selected, Priviledge, out of the several hundred on the site of VAMPIRE rave.

I like what imagesinwords posted. It sums up well what I saw this site to be about. I am pretty new here and when I came to the site I read the VR Manual. I read that there was a possibility that when I got to a certain statues that I could be forced inducted. I commend Cancer for all the work he has put into VR and the staff that assist him in this not-so-always-easy task. He owns the site. When I signed up I agreed to the Terms of Service. Once I did that I was given the privilege of making a profile and to become a part of the community here. Coven Master are given the ability for force induct or not. That is a right they have earned. Some act on that right and some do not. If I had been forced into a Coven I would have made the best of it and worked to Sire where then I would have –earned- the right to choice a coven I wanted to be a part of. The issue with the Coven pf Purgatory all I will say is the Coven Master who runs it has the right to do with her Coven as she wishes. Rather I agree with it or not. As do all Coven Masters have the same right. Like Imagesinwords said I too am here to have a good time. As long as I am I will keep logging in. The day I stop having a good time I will bid you all well and simply stop logging on to the site.

Slander implies drama, and as someone far above me said, drama should be left at the door.

VR's hierarchy system is beyond fair. It's flawless, in my personal opinion. The more you grow, the more your words and actions mean. In all actuality, it is like an online training program for the "real world" for some people here, like those "rebels without a cause" that do nothing but say "I don't want, I won't do this," etc. Forced inductions are like a reality check, you may not like it but it is what it is.

well, I was forced in and hey it's the way it works in here...It has been great so far...quit whinning and see where it takes you. you might like it...lol

As with any online messages or IM- You dont want it repeated, then keep your hands off the keyboard/ mouth shut.

:)

seriously just ask nicely to be traded if you dont like where you are...or dont bother to level past shadow...lmao

i think this subject has been killed to death

so2283, then you do not need to post.

Some people do wish to discuss this. Do not ruin the top just because you don't find it has merit.

i find it has merit but the bottom line is the vr manual says u can be forced inducted if they dont like it then they should leave. It was in the manual when they signed up

I have no problem with forced inductions. If you read what you were getting into then you need to deal with it or delete your account. As far as being friendly with your fellow coven or house mates you just have to try. I know some people that are very outgoing and still have had problems interacting with their covens and or house mates. Some places you just don't fit in others you do. You just have to try to find what works for you

REMEMBER this is a talk about if it is MORAL to induct NOT about the rules.

Please before you respond, READ the first post. Thank you.

it may not be a moral issue but its the rules and like it or not we have to live by the rules

That is not the discussion, last chance. Do not post just to be "right" these posts that are not on topic will be deleted.

I have no moral problems with forcible inductions on a vampire based internet site. *smiles*

but to say to the administrator that post "its about whether forced inductions are moral..." Morality doesnt enter into it, how is unhonorable to follow the rules of this site...? there is no moral side to this, unless they change the rule to no forceable inductions, and not change the abililty of sires to force people into a coven...then it would be breaking morality

the only thing i have to say is societies should be peaceful and are better enjoyed if someone wants to be there

I also think the society system is the reason in the near 2 years i have been here is why the amount of members hasnt grown that much since i joined. Too many get frustrated and delete. Seems as if the increase in members is need for duplicate accounts which i still dont understand

There is a huge differance between what is "legal" and what is "Moral"

In most of the US it is LEGAL to descriminate agains someone due to age...not old age, but young. A relativly new example is "55+" housing developments. Most of the affordable houses being built in our area can only be purchased by those over 55 without young children in their houshold. This is perfectly legal, but is it morraly correct?

The same is being asked of forced induction. No one disputes that it is "legal" as it is clearly permitted by the VR Manual. The question is, is it morrally correct for a scoiety master to induct members against their will.

As for my opinion, I think Forced Induction should be the rule rather than the exception. To truly mirror the mythical Vampyric "undeathstyle" the vast majority of society members should enter as forced inductions and oly a small minority have any say in what their first society membership is.

LOL as the legal-moral thingy above me, in reply to my comment....

this isnt a place where being inducted will end up in abuse, injury or abuse....
and as long as there is the ability to start a new account, i still fail to see how this disussion has any merit...

as for me i was asked the first time...
then i asked another sire to trade for me when i was ready to leave......

I feel that the only morals that have to be present with a forced induction is how the inductee acts about it. If they don't like where they are and act out about it then it shows that they can't accept change. If you want out then you should show respect and work your way out in a nicer fashion. Now that I think about it, it isn't really morals, it is more of a common sense thing.

That did happen, and the reason being is it didnt affect me. Nor did i say i had a problem with the Coven of Pugatory, I just spoke my opinion on what "I" would do and in my 2 years of being on this site what seems to work the best for "Me"

uh huh... so Purgatory has a purpose. There's a reason and validity to it. I know I am surely not going to forget all the Societies that are using it when it is convenient.

I think I will start my list.

I dont know we all have different view's on this when I first joined I was inducted into a coven wont mention name but I thought it was 'cool cause of the spider...LOL like that dont give it away.... Anyway I worked at getting traded you dont like it do something to get into other one! Today I am in the coven I wanted and it came from hard work and my coven family accepting me(smiles) ....so on that note if ya in one you dont like work at getting traded!

Sure there is a reason for it and are you not getting the attention you desired?

It's not about attention on Purgatory. It's gathering those who have drawn it upon themselves by stating they are better than everyone else, and the site rules should not apply to them.

Personal issues between Coven's do not belong in this thread.

Let's keep it on track.

Liebe,

I know we're supposed to be talking about the "morality" of forced inductions and not the "rules" of VR, BUT....

It seems to me that, whether being forcibly inducted into a House or Coven is moral or not, IT IS still a rule on this website, so the bottom line is, after someone hits Level 5, they are fair game to any House or Coven, whether they like it or not.

Now, I know that every House and Coven are different in how they "induct" their members. Some will honor the fact that certain people are against being forcibly inducted, others, well, they don't care as they are following the "rules".

Like I've said in a previous post, if you're not happy with the Coven or House you have been inducted to, at least give the Master of the House or Coven the respect and decency of a message asking if you can be traded. And give at least some good reason as to why, it's really not that hard people.

If you are rude about the way you are asking to be released or traded (I'm not going to say any names or anything, lol) then you deserve to be blinded and blocked until you straighten your attitude and learn some respect.

Hm... morals. Sigh.

I think it's rather difficult to be a coven master or assistant CM while being politically correct, moral, etc. to an extreme; even though it is possible. I think forced inductions are fine, and as someone said above the way it is done is different for every society. Some ask first, others induct forcibly, some take a person in without consent but a promise that if they do not wish to be there that a trade can be set up. Who are any of us to actually judge what is moral or not moral?

However, just to play devils advocate, perhaps the morals of angry, forced inductees should be taken into account. They join the website, they learn how it works, understand it, yet they get angry when they are included in the regular swing of things.

You know if we keep in line with the vampire theme, things could be a lot worse.

If a vampire bit you and made you one of his 'coven' and you chose to leave...he or she'd probably kill you as opposed to 'blinding' you or giving you some other 'punishment'...so at least your VR house/coven masters can't delete you from the site if they think you are being disrespectful.

valid points, and who can blame a coven considering the changes in favor...no that is has alot to do with VR participation..

Ethics and Morals of forced inductions can only be address by one person. The one who made the rule.

:)

since when were vampires ethical creatures?
this is a vampire site not an ethics committee

Wildchild I must agree, still there are people that are using this aspect of the VR experience as a means of judgement. Silly if you can seperate the layer of who you are, and what your profile really is on the site.

Felix you crack me up! Please don't delete me ;;)

Confucius says, "Do not use a cannon to kill a mosquito."

Felix says, "Never send a sire to try and delete another sire."

*looks at her level and sigh in relef* ouff..I am a sire...Felix..dont scare me like that! Its not moraly corect!

Okay that aside, indeed, it si true, that the Coven Master and House Master cannot delete ones account so the force induction is with the way of the vampire, so it is moral in the way it follows the moral of the vampires, but it is also moral as it dont allow deletion (death) so it is morally good. It has half the vampire rights, and still leaves hafl the vampire freedom to a non sire.

And to be quite honest, blinding never really seemed so completely intollerable for some.

To go one step further, the only reason people don't like forced induction is because they might have been interested in a different society or their friends have a coven they want in and this took away that chance. But this isn't meant to be MySpace groups. It's social yes but since not everyone can make a coven, this doesn't have the same democratic principle. It's a gift for those who have met Cancer's criteria (sire being just one step). In keeping with the vampire theme, he could just as likely go about destroying covens and houses he disagreed with so really we don't have it so bad.

If the only way into a society was forced and you had no choice of it, most would prefer that to not being granted access to societies. Most would suggest that it's unfair not everyone gets inducted. There are likely those on this site who would rather be inducted than left outside the society system.

Its about respecting peoples wishes and what they are here for. its something that is wholey lacking from the present day VR.

i never ran into true animosity on this site before houses and covens came about.

Well as a former CM. I can say I didnt mind accepting others wishes to be removed or released for that matter aslong they were respectful and didnt gripe about being there.. Honestly you dont have to be in a society so take it as a privledge that whoever inducted you felt you would fit in the society as a whole.. Complain and get blinded.. Or maybe you should actually read the rules..lol..

When I started it was an honor for a society to pick you .. So suck it up..
another thing felix is exactly correct. Lucky its not a true vampire Society .. You might end up on a milk carton

Wait until the Coven of "Hell of Dante" starts. *inserts evil laugh*

I still don't get it. If you don't want and do get forced, pay it no mind. Or make the most of it. Houses and Coven do offer things that the main/public sections can not offer. Most already have mentioned other reasons and opinions. Why question and demand things other than what the creator of his own site wants to do with his own site? Hell - go make your own then. To do otherwise is just plain rude.

sahahria maybe you should go back and read the topic youre self here is a paragraph copy and pasted from the topic

"It seems the coven of Purgatory has many people upset with the ethics of inductions and what should be morally correct vs. what the rules are."

seems to me both morals and rules are in question. we should all know the rules so lets discuss the morals.

This IS a VAMPIRE site and set up as a VAMPIRE society so VAMPIRE morals dictate actions on here. That means that what ever the Prince deems moral is moral and the Prince has deemed that forced inductions ARE MORAL!!! If you don't like the way the Prince sees things you know where the door is.

Incardine if I am not mistaken...Houses have been here since close to day one, and coven not long after, .....so VR is VR and Houses and Coven are VR, so force induction is what morally a Vampire would do, so logic would say its a vampire site so its a vampire force induction.

Actually, the Societies did come a wee later than day one. And they are still a work in process. So, the members are not only members but a part of their future creations. The societies are literally being built by us. Cancer created them but we are building them. Something to think about.

I know...I know...don't look at my level; it is rising as fast as I can manage it. I haven't been here but a few weeks, so if you don't like my words...ignore them.

I came here on a whim following two of my friends to VR because MySpace has gotten too dramatized to enjoy anymore with all of its bullying and hate mail...

That said...you may not read me...no, really. Honestly, my two friends and I had it in mind to level up and get in the same 'group', but our plans (oh, how they changed...lol) were flawed by the VR system.

One ended up in a house and the other two in differing Covens.

None of us mind, as far as I know. We still talk and are still friends. That hasn't changed in the least. All three of us have NEW friends.

I tell the other two who in my new Coven are perfectly wonderful in case they would like to message them and have a friend outside of their Coven/House...

Does this not promote MORE friendship instead of less? We would have had the friends one could provide and now have three. So in effect, it is probably far better than we could have hoped for...Right?

My own induction was rather cute...I was petitioning one Coven while looking into several House/Covens I liked in case they didn't accept me. The Asst. Mstr. even went to his Coven Mstr over me to see if he could talk him into it, but I was very truthful in my petition and obviously my circumstances weren't too liked.

While I was waiting to hit that little "Update Your Status" button (which everyone is allowed to not touch, but I will admit is calls for the cursor), I kept leveling out of sheer circumstance. Meaning I had accidentally deleted 87% of my profile while editing.

Nearly three days later...I was talking to a friend about it all. (who to pick, what to do if they didn't want me, what to do if I didn't like who got me...) Basically, worrying the issue to death. Probably not my best moment, but I hadn't slept in nearly three days, worked too much overtime and was frazzled.

He tempted me. Egging me on to 'hit the button'. I had done the math; knew what level I would be at. He wanted to 'see if my math was right'. Since I had heard from the Asst. Mstr. and he hadn't mentioned my getting inducted, I decided he was right. Why worry over it? I didn't need that and I am very accepting of most people...so I 'Updated'.

Sure enough, I was barely a 'ghoulie'. He laughed his butt off. I had complained about 'the dern movie' and not wanting to be a 'ghoulie'. I was teasing...I don't mind. It is cool. Still, we were talking when I got a message I thought was from him...It wasn't. Seconds after I hit the 'update' I get notification that the Asst. of a Coven (the one my friend belonged to...surprise, surprise) was considering me.

Before I could 'Oh, wtf! to my lil buddy', he sends me a message saying "Oh, I see you have decided to accept a Coven...Congratulations!" I was like 'huh?' So I looked...

I was forced in like 3 seconds flat...and laughing so hard I couldn't type. I got a message from Twins, Robin3, and my buddy all acting innocent (like it was purely accidental_and I hope they don't mind me telling that part) and they hoped I didn't mind...I didn't!

In fact, it solved the issue. I hate making decisions. This option was given to me and I decided (on my own) to forgo it. Everyone has the option to wait for a petition to be accepted. They hit the button, just like me and took that option away from their own selves.

If someone is defaming others, let them be held liable for their actions. They had a choice! Even a sub in S & M has a choice to be there, or not. They decide to allow someone else the control. When they signed in to VR, they agreed to be a sub. When they hit the button, they agreed to let thier will be decided for them.

If Cancer took away the rules, (or softened them) I wouldn't like it here. It is the whole reason I wanted to log in...We are all getting tired of bullies and crass idiots. This is a place where detractors can be booted and held to account for their actions...so be it. That is what I read in the manual and I shouted 'hurray' when I saw it. I can't stand childish crap. Not to say everyone that complains is childish, some may have legitimate reasons. Am I not given to understand there is a system in place for legitimate complaints? So what is the problem?

Is it moral? Yeah, in my oppinion...

I agree with everything Cancer (and his associates) have done with the place. Can you imagine the brains and time and effort put into this site? I can't...It is all I can do to work one page. Let them be held liable for what they say. VR is not a site for complaints, or haters...send them away. If they are fussing and can log out, they are doing it for the attention (if they haven't gone through the system to lodge an actual reason for it).

All that said, sorry...This may not be entirely on topic, but I do hope it gets my point across.

My biggest concern is moving soon and possibly loosing the ability to log in for an indefinate amount of time. I don't want my account deleted am I am considering a lifetime membership to ensure that my name is preserved from the VR system destroying it before I can return...

I was technically forcibly inducted in the coven I went to due to the coven master living here... I have had no issues with the coven since I have been there and have since taken on responsibility in said coven... it would seem that for the most part those with a problem with forced inductions claim to be "loners" if you are a loner then you would not be here conversing with others and complaining about it... if you are inducted and you don't want to be why not just leave or stop logging in... maybe ask the coven master or mistress as the case may be to let you leave try it in a calm and rational manor from the ones that I know they are either really nice and understanding... or they will eat your soul... either way worth a shot.

Very true Billy .. the societies are what we make them.There are a vast amount of different people on here as there are worldwide. Each soeciety is run there own way like it or not thats the choice of the Master Vampire or Sire in Charge of the society.. So if you dont want to be inducted keep a low key ..

I am sorry Billy, my mistake and I accept the corection. No problem. Sorry again.

You said tho this and its really interesting, the coven adn houses are a work in progress, indeed, it is true, I saw several coven opening then disbanding for divers reason and I dont juge any, its not my place, I also saw a change in command of the Houses, (I had account before but was froce to delete..love life issues lol)

So indeed it is all a work in progress, the thing is do we want to be part of the progress, or do we just want to sit and watch, whining about the work of others, while we dont lift a finger to help or proove we can do better, this is kind of what force induction is about, kinda.

Once force indcut its like being place on top of the ladder and being hand a hammer and nails then left there, we can whine and cry and bitch (caiitif), or we can finsh the job and be able to be taken down to ground once the task complet.(sire) and go where we want no questions ask.

I don't think the justice system even looks for "morally correct" just that we follow the rules/laws. FD, is part of the rules, there are ways around it that are legitimate and workable unless people choose to act aggressive and ruin any chance they might have of reasoning with the coven master. I think to find anyone trying to be morally right you're going to need to go to church or something similar, not a vampire website, for it.

I also remember the words, 'for those already in a Society, they will have an advantage over those that are not.' My paraphrase. No clue what the Prince had or has in mind, nor meant by "advantage" but ...

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