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The devils mark or witches mark, as it was called........
It was said that the devil would permanently mark his initiates to seal their 'pledge of obedience.
He would do this my raking his claw across their flesh or using a red hot poker or even simply by licking them. These initiation rites were administered to witches at the end of the noctunal sabbats.
His brands or marks were always made in 'secret places,' such as in armpits on under eyelids.
This mark was considered ultimate proof of being a witch.

Do you think the devil needed to mark his followers?
A lot of people consider themselfs to be a witch yet don't bare any marks at all, so what other traits or physiology do you use to justify yourselves?

Personally, i would say, just looking at someone in the eyes, can be a "giveaway, for lack of a better word.

Why does a witch have to be a follower of the Devil?

~sorry~

just to add that these sources come from articles written by Rosemary Ellen Guiley
and British anthropologist Margaret A. Murry.
With readings from The Encyclopedia Of Witches and Witchcraft

Good point Oceanne

I have a friend that is a practicing white witch, she is not interested in the devil or aything satainc whatsoever...

BTW...i arent speakin of the thread i wrote in the sandbox about"being spoilt"

the woman concerned has nothing whatsoever to do with my friend being a white witch.and cannot stand the site of her...

The belief that the devil marked witches goes to show the ignorance of the people of that period in history. Those people were also very wrapped up in the bible, and if the bible said that witches were evil then it meant that they must have some sort of mark from the devil.

yes,it does indeed.And what does GOD mean? hahah Good Old Devil? they would have crapped to hear that one.

I have to agree back the n all things were deemed evil and mnay were just healers and were killed just for helping, I do not believe in the Devil and have been a practicing Witch for over 14 years now and I also agree with looking some one in the eyes as well, as our eyes are the windows to our souls lol

i dont think a witch need to be related to the devil becuase of wicca

a wiccan witch is in tune with the earth and all the other elements around him/her

so what you're all saying so far is that becoming a witch can just be added to a schooling curriculum as nothing 'special' is really needed to obtain 'witch' status bar a certificate. lol

Hm... BL... I think that these markings kind of go hand in hand with things such as the Salem Witch Trials. The people involved with that made up all sorts of crap-o-la so that they could define their "prey" as a witch, simply because they wanted to. I mean, they literally stripped the poor people who were condemned to their birthday suits and searched their entire body for any marking. Sometimes they even called a common mole the mark of the devil.

I recall that 'witch finders' looked for marks on the people they persecuted.

They wer'nt fussy even a mole would be enough to condemn a person to burning.

FortunateFool and Carvall ~

you are both correct on that. During the witch hunt years, people were indeed striped naked and searched. They would then put a needle into the 'mark' to see if it bled.
But even those without 'marks' were still tortured and put to death

I would really think, based on histroy witchery is or can be the devils work, the concept of "good witches" or white witches is something rather new just like the religion of wicca. I dont believe that these new age religions and terms are from ancient history and if it is i would i think its incorrect

I am a witch and a Satanist. Satanists do not believe in the devil they believe in a god that has given us all emotions to feel and enjoy including lust and prise and envy and all the fun ones. lol We look like everyone else. We are human. How can you tell a Christian from everyone else?

A lot of modern witches don't associate themselves with the devil. Most of the witches who practice black magic STILL don't associate themselves with the devil, but I assume the ones that do would probably say it was myth.

I have followed the Wiccan path as solitary mostly for over 14 years. I have dabbled but I am unsure that makes me a witch..
All witches are not Wiccan.
I'm more of a shaman, ... perhaps more eclectic and unable to title self more than that.
And after more thought .. I remember reading Christopher Penzak's The Temple of Shamanic Witchcraft .. I think he has it pegged properly.
Later.

~ Wolf.

As above I believe witches are not necessarily associated with the devil, mainly because the devil is a Christian belief, and witches tend not to be (but some are) Christian.

However if the devil had followers I wouldn't think that he/she/it would need to put a mark on them to identify them. The devil would know who it's followers were. Any markings would be a purely human adoption to identify members to each other.

Wolfscout ~

that a good point, so I guess its fair to say that the term 'witch' and indeed 'devil' are just names being used for reference purposes.

Not all wiccans are witches and not all chrisians believe in the devil -- so it would be for anyone in any religion that considers themself to be a witch or whatever name they want to call it

Most witches do not even believe in the devil. The devil was something the Christian church came up with. Witches are not even involved with the devil. Dring the burning times a lot of the people accsed of being witches were not even witches, high officials just wanted to steal their farm land ect.

oh an almost forgot to mention, I don't believe that a witch has to have a mark of any sort, although I do have two different colored eyes, also Witchcraft has only been legal since 1952 before that they killed those who they thought were witches, a lot of Witches went underground with who they wereand became even more secretive. Secrecy is in the craft becase a lot of the knowlege that Witches have would be used for the wrong perposes by the average folk and most witches want to help their enviroment and those arond them and not harm anyone!

There are satanist's and then theistic satanists and i think they believe in a fallen angel lucifer. but that has nothing to do with witches. i think the wistches who have come out of the closet dont perform black magick, but i do believe there are witches who perform black magick and dont even associate them selves as being witches

BL - The devil doesn't mark witches, because real witches do not worship the devil, or even believe in the devil. the devil is a character from a completely different mythos, and cannot feature in an alien religion.

it's like asking if Phil Mitchel drinks in the Rover's Return.

karnstein~

thats a very broad statement..............how can you generalise like that. Who knows what real witches worship or acknowlege.
Please read some of 'Rosemary Ellen Guiley' work.

women that were healers and had knowledge of medical practices were deemed witches i am a nurse and we had a lesson in early medician and that was brought up if the help was not a sucess then the woman healer was deemed a witch and was accused of being of the devil the people of old had to blame the bad luck on someone and who was the best person it was the witch or healer if u will i to am a wiccan and there is no room for the devil in our practice

Hello Blood Life,

I have read many many book son witchcraft and went to school for it. As a rule witches are pagan and pagans are people who believe in another god other then the Jewish, Christian, or muslim god. Pagans do not believe in Satan. They might have dark gods. You should look at the witches Bible by the Ferrars. Great book. I do not know who Rosemary Ellen Guiley is but sounds like another Christian take on witchcraft. Per Christianity witchcraft is done through satan because fortune telling or causing things to happen is not allowed per god so it would have to be from satan.

""GrandMasterC187
No for one I am a guy, two I don't practice magic. ""

it has nothing to do with being a guy.. Guys who practice the craft are still witches.
If you have warlock in mind.. that is a bit different animal.
hrm i think everyone practices magic though they may not know it.
Perhaps it's best I don't go there here, maybe another thread?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlock

""Warlocks are, among historic Christian traditions, said to be the male equivalent of witches (usually in the pejorative sense of Europe's Middle Ages), and were said to ride pitchforks instead of broomsticks which normally witches would ride. In traditional Scottish witchcraft, "warlock" was and is simply the term used for a wizard, or male witch.[1] A synonym is sorcerer.[2]
....
Although some modern practitioners of witchcraft identify as "warlocks", many avoid this term and/or find it offensive. Wiccans in particular consider it to be a pejorative term, meaning "oath-breaker".[7] Wiccans use the term "warlock" to mean one who has been banished from a coven, either for revealing secrets, or for breaking Coven laws; occasionally the word has a quite different usage as a verb meaning "to bind", as with cords during an initiation ceremony, or prior to a ritual scourging.[8] ""

"The oathbreaker" is the definition most commonly meant. The 'unknowing' often say it's just male witch.. kinda redundant.

the devil need not mark them for they show in the way they preform magic. his fallowers stay loyal or suffer his wrath.

I still find myself shaking my head at the sheer volume of misinformation being put out by the Christian church, even in modern times. There have been far too many (mostly innocent) people whose lives have been damaged or even ended due to the Church's need to remain in control.

As far as whether I have the mark of the devil on me, no, I had that removed years ago... ;-[

I am not a witch even though I have been called that many times :) ..my grandmother however did have a huge role in witchcraft of sorts. I know this from things I would see as a child and things I was told. I grew up believing that in her situation it was very much about the devil and there were indeed markings. Maybe those dealing with black magic do have something to do with worshiping the devil? I realy don't know I'm just guessing

I am going to ramble on a bit, so forgive the length.

there is no black...It is all grey, nuetral, it is a matter of how you practice. The stereotypical name calling is getting quite old. If you are a Satanist but you do not believe in nor worship said diety, then do not submit a statement such as "I am a Satanist. Make another name for your practice. Plain and simple.

If you are to call yourself a "real witch" and say you practice the "stuff", submit at least a bit of a paragraph of your pointed statement, instead of a childish phrase. If you want friends, try exploring profiles instead of advertising in a discussion thread.

Real witches are not called witches. This again is a term given to a part of society who studies the surmounted arcane knowledge. They neither believe in, or do believe but are not religious.

You do not have to be religious to believe. Therefore, paganism is a belief, whilst wicca is a practice of that certain belief, but you do not need to practice wicca to be a pagan, you could be a preacher and still be pagan. This is not contradictory, just facts...It is called being open minded.

My point, is whether or not you succumb to the ideals of religios belief, being wiccan, pagan, muslim, budhist, christian, etc. As a couple of these would reveal that you are a polythiest. Everyone has a right to worship, or follow which ever practice they choose, and should not be critiqued for it.

The mark does not exist once again, it is there to point out a certain superstition that has eluded society for centuries, where many lost their lives for the cause of ignorance.

I think I am done...Forgive or not the bluntness and arguementive rebuttle.

Soulshroude~

thanx for that, I was about to give up on the thread. You kinda got things back on track. lol

No probs, I call them like I see them...More often than not, the unlearned individuals whom seek the arcane, are granted a shred of literature even if it does seem as though it were a mere couple of paragraphs, lol.

I am a real witch, my great grandmother was a real witch. There are no marks on the body of a witch. For one thing, witches do not believe in Satan, the Devil, or whatever name he goes by. I am a Pagan by belief and a Wiccan witch by practice. I bear no mark. My energy is marked by my sacred belief in do no harm to human, nature or animal either by action or word. I do not know where "the mark" came from on witches but I know it to be completely untrue. Yes, there are evil witches, black magic, and good witches, white magic but no mark to distinguish then other than their energies.

i agree with all of u that go agaisnt alll withces being and witches that cast a curse gets it back in 3 folds so wat witch would want to do that i mean it would suck lets say u cast an ugly curse then u would get that back in 3 folds who want that and yea maybe some witches do want it and done care but hey its all my opininon

I personally do not think that the devil has to mark any of his followers, i mean i would think that he would know his own without needing to mark them, and with witchcraft their is good and bad it is what you want to do with it, but i think being bad would be a lot better ; )...

If there is a devil I don't think he would take the time to mark anyone or would feel the need too and least not physically

The "devil" does not mark his followers, his followers mark themselves as a pride for being who and what they are, as with anyone who puts a mark anywhere on body or clothing...Pure and simply put.

well I am a witch and I am real..

now the witches I know and nor am I marked by the Devil. This would be sort of silly for us as we do not believe in such a person/creature.

I am not saying that no one that says they are a witch worships the devil.. but the ones I know and know of do not even believe he is a real enity.

I am a pagan, and I believe in many gods (good and bad- how you can measure that I am not sure though). I am of the opinion that however many people there are in the world, that is how many religions there should be- everyone has their own beliefs, and these are very special and should be nurtured (not punished), with the exception of when these beiliefs are forced upon others. I am sorry if this doesn't sound relevant but I think that no matter who you follow or what you believe, you can only ever carry a mark of it on the inside

It seems there are many theories concerning 'The Mark'.
Maybe it is associated with black magic and evil broom riding witches, but let me draw your attention to this site.........see what you think!

SORRY.........I guess the site would help........


http://home.att.net/~wiccanhistorian/histories/devilsmark.html

You are if you believe....I most certainly am, no marks, just the power of my belief in myself.

Tzaddi~
thats admirable, its good to have 'belief.

Pagan and Wiccans although a relatively new if not modern term for todays witches were not the only ones to use magic and call them selves witches in days of old.
Maybe 'The Mark' was aimed at those people.

i know a friend that is a witch and that friend is not a devil at all that person loves everthing arould them.

Okay so I read the first post and didn't bother with any of the others.....


A true witch.... doesn't believe in the devil... we have no ties to something we do not believe in.... a witches purpose is not to "serve Satan" its all a total misconception that Christians like to label us with. Something I think was probably started when the church came over.... took on many of our pagan ways, and then to persecute those who would not convert. What a better way to stray the community to be only of the Christian faith then to make them believe that we pagans are all satanists..... *raises and eyebrow*

Also I forgot to add that in the bible the term witch is not the original term...... it was poisoner, until King James became fearful of the witches and changed it..... Perhaps it meant the marks are on poisoners..... lol.

what dose the devil have to do with witch im a white witch and i dont fallow the way of the devil and never have

im not sure if there is a real thing as a witch I think that some people can live a lifestyle that makes it seems like they are a witch but I dont think in truth that they do exist at all in society.

there many types of witches and not all of them are related to the devil

i believe that witches have nothin whatsoever to do with these mark that the devil puts on or to do with him at all yes their is some witches that practice dark arts and are associated with the devil in some sense but i dont believe they have a mark on them i have meant a few in my time some that are good and some that are all about the dark arts none that i have ever seen have bore the mark you have spoken of. Just had to put my to cent in dont want to affend ya BL you have made some good points.

Hello Soulshroude
I am happy to see someone else who understands there is no white and black.


I personally am marked but on my own account. I have gotten tattoos. I still believe that the article is written by someone with a Christian back ground that is living in fear.

I do not believe that a witch has to be marked.

i am not a witch but i do not think that a witch needs to be marked by the devil i thing the devil would know who is with him and who is not

eternaldarkness1~

your views like mine are only opinions and dont offend at all.

In the time of the salem witch trials which was 1692 so many ppl want to plead the Christian faith and deem higher up in ranks then local foke so in the churches anyone with a birth mark that was different and seen all the time was considered to be evil and pure ppl were burned because of there ignorance of what to think or rule as evil or witchcraft and saying that witches truely have a marking on them is a bunch of hog wash .Laura Cabott is infact a witch with no markings at all to such a fate but she is the oldest witch in Salem to this very day...

theunknown~

but how do you know she dosen't have any 'hidden' markings. It's not the sort of thing a witch will talk about.

Yes I consider myself a REAL witch. Recently I have begun to follow the Wiccan Path and even though I do believe in the powers of evil, I do not ask my powers of them. EVERYONE has magick and psychic abilities, it is just whether you develope them.

I do not beleive that all witches are evil at all. Some people do have a different point of view for sure but i know many witches and are the nicest people that anyone can befriend. :)

I am wiccan and dont follow the path of the devil I am not now or ever evil.It is a myth I do believe that all witches follow the devil.

I am a witch but the devil is a Christian idear which has nothing to do the craft

Although the 'Devil' is a christian ideal, the devil has many names and guises and is know by those name to the relevant religions.
So whatever we decide to call him its primarily about a Witchs Mark that I ask about.

This is a quote that preceded the Salom massacre..........
"This is a time of intense struggle between the forces of righteousness and the forces of evil. . . . We must actively enter into the battle to defend ourselves, our families, and the children in the Primary. There is so much that we can do, and we are instructed how to do it in the scriptures."

The witch finders followed the examples of the Europeans and looked for the 'Marks'

i dont think at all that its linked to the devil for fact like someone else said of wicca. theres good and bad in everything and theres no devil in good

Blood..... They said many things back then to get backing to kill more innocent people. There are way more Christians that were killed then pagans. We are basing this whole thing on what was said by people whom have killed more people then any other religion just to keep power. If not why would they have killed people. Wouldn't they have left it in gods hands? I have two theories, They probably said something about the mark because one of the last people they condemned had a birth mark so they ran with it or maybe pagans had tattoo's so other pagans would know that they followed the path but we will never know for sure but witches today do not all have marks.

Most people that think of a witch think of them doing active magic. What would a person consider as active magic. Its more of that persons will behind the spell, so on so forth. But witches having the mark of the devil now that is bogus. You basically have three diffrent kinds of witches, white, gray and black. Your Black witches dont generally even have anything to do with the devil. The just study and practice the darker arts of witch craft.

well i am a real witch, i've been studying witchcraft for 16 yrs now. the first thing i learn is that a true witch/pagan/wiccan doesn't believe in the devil or any entity as such depicted by the bible. witches and pagans try to live in harmmony with nature and their surrounding environment. and our "creed" is (in simple terms) in life do as you will, but harm none.
now the last time i checked the devil was a creature of the christian and jewish god (one of his angels that fell from grace) and since pagans don't believe in the christian or jewish god how can we be followers of the devil, which we don't even believe exists

Back then people who read the bible thought being a witch meant that you get you power from the devil. The only reason it says that is because you gain power from something else besides God. God wants you to rely on Him alone cause being a witch means you don't need Him. Thus He declares witchcraft and all manner of spirit power not connected to Him as from the devil.

OK so let me just clearify one thing before anyone gets thewrong idea. I only call myself wiccan (not even witch or warlok) i follow the path that began over before abraham was even a twinkle in his mommy's eye. the basic belief in a god and goddess, and through their union life sprang forth to the universe. i just say i'm wiccan cause thats what everyone else understands. the only catigory i could fall under is just pagan i guess.
Wicca was first re-introduce as a religion in the 1920's and then re-emerged in the 1940s and the last law against its practice in england was repealed in 1951.
the councile of american witches (yes there was accually a council) adopted a set set of principles of wiccan beliefs in 1974......
BL I really think you should go to your local B&N or Borders or even walden book stores and get some current liturature on the subject of witchcraft. and i dont mean something writen by a christian or satanist get something writen by SIlver Ravenwolf Scott Cunningham Raymond Buckland (to name the more famous authers) or one of the many others who have sat down and but there beliefs and the practices that work for them into print for other to use as a base line of developing their own way of worship.

I kind of take offense to the idea that a witch is a follower of the devil. I have been a practicing witch for 10 years now, and I can honestly say that I have NO affiliation w/ "The Devil", "Satan", "Lucifer", or any other devil by any other name.

Now as far as a mark being present on a true witch...I've never seen any proof that there needs to be one.

not all witches are evil, so i don't believe that. what about the wiccans that practice white magic? i highly doubt that lucifer would allow that.

wtf is a real witch???

This discussion seems like, unserious or something.

ROTFLMAO

Ok. I'm a witch/ Wiccan. I don't think the "Devil" even is real. I think that it's a way Christians get people to go to church to protect themselves. People need a sure way to be safe in the after life so they create ways to be sure.

Another thing this isn't the witch trails. All the accused were not witches. A mark is just another color your cells decide to make at that moment. There is nothing evil in the way someone believes. It's there closer for their after life.......

EXCUSE ME but there is no devil first of all. Second of all any real Wiccan would know that Wicca is a nature based religon who worships two beings. I will recommend that you do some more reserch gentel poster before you make ignorante comments.

Heres a good question....

Do Christians bare the mark of God if they get saved. Does God place a cross in your skin? How do you know that the christian god isn't the devil. A lot of death came from the people of god. Life is full of difference. Can anyone really understand what God or even who or why God is here. If he is. Think on that one for awhile. I think it makes a good point......

Okay....

my turn to babble on and on...

witch witch witch, this word is thrown around way to much.

A witch is what people referred to the wiccans as. Us wiccans though? We do not refer to ourselves as witches... its merely what we are called...

Okay, so now we have another person claiming to be Wiccan, right? wrong

I was born and raised Wiccan. Wicca is a very old religion, actually it's the oldest religion that can be followed in documentation. Anyhow. I don't even know where the 'devil' thing came up about marking 'witches'. Christianity was born centuries after Wicca... so lets squash that thought right now.

As for a mark, a true mark. It is not a mark of the devil. It is a mark that is different for each line of descent. It is simply something that is on each of the children that is born into natural abilities. (Just because you are from a line of wiccan descent does not mean that you will bear the mark.

In the descent of the Morgan family line (which I descend from and is the only marking I can tell you about) It is indeed a mole. A small black mole that is found on the right butt cheek to be exact. You wouldn't think anything of it. However, seeing a group of your family together and all of us bearing the same exact mole n the same spot is a bit freaky.

Wiccans... true wiccans follow really the only wiccan rule. Harm none. Yes, every religion is grey. There can be good and bad wiccans just as there are good and bad christians. But a true wiccan.... is white.

Im not wicca,
Im a natural witch I practice the acceint ways from with in I was traind and given by my grandmother who was italian and learnd her ways

I myself am not a witch yet I know a few and none of them have any markings, yet they do not worship the devil either. Yet this thread is interesting to read as for all the info .

everyone taking offense that people say Witches are marked by the devil should get passed that. I am in no one Christian and can not handle religions that condemn everyone else from any other religion but theres. At the same time the have made pagan gods into the devil for thousands of years. Why let them get to you. That is what a lot of them want. Just my 2 sense because I hate seeing good people bothered by things that will never change.

This was not specifically at you I do know it came right after that. I know a lot of pagans that get angry when Christians tell them they worship Satan. I will admit I have fun debating with them at that point I just can not understand letting someone get under your skin.

I believe that anyone who practises witchcraft is a real witch. The myth about the marks is exactly that...a myth.

Witchcraft or as it was called the craft has nothing to do with the worship of the devil. Thank you Saint Patrick for the faux pa. The snakes chased out of Ireland were women who practiced the craft witch craft as it is called was called wise craft being these women were the healers ie doctors of the time and the church wanted the practice stopped

ok guys -- this is the main article, if you have a genuine interest the link at the bottom will lead to more links.............

The Devil's mark, also known as the Witch's mark, was thought to be the initiating mark the Devil placed o the body, usually women, as a seal of their pledge of obedience and service to him. This was a predominant belief during the witch-hunt trials. Usually the mark, blue or red, was believed made by the Devil's claw raked their flesh, or by an ht iron. At times he left his mark by licking the body. The Devil supposedly branded witches at the end of the initiation rites, never held on nocturnal Sabbats.

The marks were concealed in secret places such as under eyelids, in armpits and body cavities. Such marks were considered proof that the person was a witch--all witches and sorcerers were considered to have at least one. Persons accused of witchcraft in trials were thoroughly searched for such marks. Scars, birthmarks, natural blemishes, and insensitive patches of skin that failed to bleed qualified as Devil's marks. Even though experts firmly held that natural blemishes and marks were clearly distinguishable from Satan's mark, such was often not the case; victims' protests that found marks on their bodies were natural were often ignored.

Records show that from torture victims confessed to having Devil's marks. The women were stripped of their clothes in front of the inquisitors. They were shaven of all body hair so no mark could remain hidden. Pins, in the process of pricking, were driven deeply into scars, calluses, and thicken areas of the skin. Often the pricking was less painful since it was done in front of a jeering crowd. Remember this was commissioned by the Church that upholds modesty. Frequently the Devil's mark appeared if not at first; pins were driven into the body over and over again until an insensitive area finally was found. A.G.H.

Source:

Guiley, Rosemary Ellen.The Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft. New York: Facts On File.1989. p. 99

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/d/devil's_mark.html

I was told once that red hair and extra fingers can be a sign of being a Witch. I come from a family of Witches. Some of us where born with odd birth marks. And others where not. All of my kids have birth marks. Maybe they will have power too.

excuse me for being dense, but even in these days how many people are completely free of moles, birthmarks, warts, corns, callouses, spots or blemishes of any kind? come on, hands up. okay, so i assume all of you with your hands down are evil witches who have sold their souls to the devil then.

it's not even a myth - it was a stupid piece of propaganda invented by the inquisition as a way of "proving" guilt. of course the "witches" confessed under torture - it's a known fact that anyone will confess to anything, no matter how ludicrous if they want the torture to stop. it's a fiction so ridiculous that even ann rice wouldn't stoop to using it.

ROFL -- 'EVEN' Ann Rice, - but her fiction involves the most unblemished, ivory silk beautiful people 'ever'. -- thats fiction.
Even her Mayfair brigade are the best models ever.

So witches dont have anything to do with the devil -- unless under tourture?!!

well i suppose there are a few teenage witches who have only heard of fictional witches and decide they want to be witches - but only have the fictional accounts to go on - but even they will not have been given a mark by the devil on account of he doesn't exist. a lot of people put "Jedi" down as their religion last census, but i'm willing to bet none of them were personally trained by Yoda or Obi-Wan.

oops - i didnt mean to offend anyone's personal beliefs there. if any readers do happen to firmly belief in the existence of Yoda - I'm sorry.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.