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Kachina Dolls
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Abstract
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01:00:17 Jan 13 2008
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The other day I was going through my great grandmothers things and I came across some dolls. My friend told me that they were Kachina dolls, and that they eat your soul if you aren't the ones meant to have them. After doing some research on them I am posing this question.

Do you feel that Kachina dolls are actually evil or do you feel that they are just a relic of the god it is carved after? Why do you think so?

Any other information you may have would also be a great addition as well.

Information on Katchina Dolls




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Lycania
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01:09:05 Jan 13 2008
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Dolls have always been considered creepy and evil but I think they're just relics. I have another site for you with more information, hope it helps http://www.native-languages.org/kachinas.htm



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TegoSanguisitim
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01:39:37 Jan 13 2008
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Wow. Thanks for this post. I had a couple of these givien to me when I was a child and I kept them until I moved from my parents house. I'm pretty sure mine were hand crafted and from a relative in the region where they originated. I think you have to take folk lore with a grain of salt.



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Dragonrouge
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01:47:33 Jan 13 2008
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Make some pics with the dolls please!
It would be wonderful to see them!
Are they old?



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RazaelRiezen
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01:47:39 Jan 13 2008
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most older myths behind dolls. contained that they were protectors hence why dolls where handed as sleep aids to little kids helped make the evil demons think someone was still awake and watching them making the demon's stay their distance.Also since reflections and such of mirrors were used in the eyes of dolls back then. They also helped if a demon got too close to the child that demon might get sucked into the doll's eyes forever trapped.

As for kachina dolls I have done a lot of research recently due to this post and as of late all I can find on them is that they are a intermedian between human and god.



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sahahria
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01:48:35 Jan 13 2008
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Agreed about the folk lore. Remember superstitions often keep people from taking things- or stealing in other words.

But the thought that an item can take your soul is a nifty analogy for the guilt that most people have when they steal. Compound that with a superstitious person and you have a brilliant way to get your stuff, er dolls back!

I think that most of the magic of these items comes from the culture it represents and the energy that was put into it for the person it was made for. Do you know if these dolls were used for healing in a similar way that worry dolls are done? It seems extreme to just say that they steal the soul of the person if they were not made for them- since typically if made for someone specific, there is also a purpose.



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Abstract
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01:51:21 Jan 13 2008
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Regarding the soul stealing our friend wouldn't really go into it, when I researched it I couldn't really find anything about it. The closest thing that I found was the fact they were given to young children to help them get closer to the gods.

So maybe each god was for each specific child and the person not meant for the doll had his soul taken for that reason.



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Namir
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01:53:56 Jan 13 2008
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I have never heared of a Kachina Doll stealing souls. And if you research them further you will find that Hopi have several cerimonies where members dress up as Kachina Spirits and preform Ritual Dances. It is quite amazing to see.



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TumorNamedMarla
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01:56:27 Jan 13 2008
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http://phoenix.about.com/cs/shop/a/kachina01_2.htm



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RazaelRiezen
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01:58:04 Jan 13 2008
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Yes exactly upon researching it myself the most I could actually find was the kachina dancers and the dolls being a conduit for children to the gods.It makes me wonder, NOT to have movies brought up into this thread however I have seen many a movie focus on kachina dolls being evil.Where if the owner of the property the doll inhabited the doll would turn wicked and do all it could even death to drive the individual out.However thats all Ive ever found with researching these dolls on whether they were evil.



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KCRC
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02:12:05 Jan 13 2008
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The quisk search on this subjest I did revealed that the "Kachina" were the Gods of the Hopi. The males of the tribe were "in contact" with the Kuchina through dressing as the various Gods for ceremonial dance. The females were not part of these ceramonies and thus, were not afforded the opportunity for closenes to the Gods. In order to provide a channel for the women and children to have contact with the Gods, the men made the dolls, called "Tihu" in the image of the various gods.

The best source I found, with links to other sources was Aurora University. The website for the Lachina doll info is here.

I didn't find ANY referance to any curse put on the dolls.



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Essedess
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02:13:46 Jan 13 2008
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Haha, your friend said they would steal your soul? They were probably making that up or repeating some old gossip...

The dolls aren’t evil. They are indeed a reminder of the hundreds of Kachina spirits and used as a learning tool for children.



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UrsaMorbier
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02:29:11 Jan 13 2008
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These uniquely Hopi artworks are called "dolls," but that is a bit of a misnomer. Kachinas (or katsinas) are actually stylized religious icons, meticulously carved from cottnwood root and painted to repreent figures from Hopi mythology.



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Abstract
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02:33:17 Jan 13 2008
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Not to sound condescending, but plz that is the exact wording of the first page that a google search pulls up. I would appreciate it if there was only your own opinions or cited information posted.

I love the various takes on these dolls that have come forth so far. I think that even though there isn't proof of the soul eating, there is some cases that can cause possibly bad luck or such to the superstitious person.




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10241024
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02:38:58 Jan 13 2008
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I think the most important thing is:

Now that you heard this, can you make yourself believe they are safe?

Your believe in their danger may be a danger in and of itself.

Your ability to beleive they are safe is your best bet!



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Priss
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02:40:44 Jan 13 2008
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I don't think that the dolls are evil if they are given to small children...I think that they are used as a teaching tool...



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Daedal
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05:19:40 Jan 13 2008
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In the Hopi language, Kachina means life bringer. Kachinas are similar to Gods to the Hopi people. Therefore, a real Kachina doll is a religious icon. For years, they have been used to teach Hopi children about their religion. It is said that no Hopi child has ever teethed on a Kachina doll, nor taken one to bed as they would with a regular doll. I have never heard any reference to them eating anyone's soul.

There are many spin-offs of the original Hopi Kachina dolls. Some of the spin-offs are sold purely because people find them attractive, so there's money to be made in them. Others are made by other Native American tribes. If your Kachina dolls are authentic Hopi Kachinas, they are probably worth a couple of hundred dollars each, depending on their age and condition.



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LadyxOphelia
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06:30:05 Jan 13 2008
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I don't believe they are soul stealers, if they were yours would be gone right now right?

I think they were aids in helping children to understand the gods and as a way to comfort them and give them a measure of protection. From what I have read they were always given in love so that is not an evil thing in my books.



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Bloodmother
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08:08:48 Jan 13 2008
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I grew up with this stuff, and never considered them "gods." They usually depict medicine men (female healers rarely depicted), or "spirit guides" within the tribe. Their garb and accessories and paint or masks are specifically designed for whatever ceremonial purpose the real person is engaged in (which usually includes dance and chant and special words) like for good harvests, rain, more sheep and goats. There are clowns to scare away evil spirits.



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Gwendolyn
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11:40:58 Jan 13 2008
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Katchina dolls are wonderful works of art meant to embody the deities they were carved after and do not bring evil to those that have them be they the original owners or not.



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AmeeraBiohazard
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15:29:33 Jan 13 2008
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I never heard about Kachina Dolls before but from what I have just learnt I do not think that they are evil and I doubt that it can steal the soul of people, your friend just probably told you that to scare you or something.



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LizSara
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15:36:49 Jan 13 2008
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I've not heard of them before but as with all folk lore, heed the words but take them with a grain or two of salt all the same.

If you have a look here you might be able to find a book to look at with descriptions of the ones you have and see for sure.



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RainbowPrincess
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19:41:35 Jan 13 2008
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unless its carved after an 'evil' God it shouldn't be evil



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RazaelRiezen
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09:36:06 Jan 14 2008
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So far any I bring it up to has not stated anything about soul eater's
maybe our friend had the type of doll confused with another type.



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MoonRainbow1
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09:40:46 Jan 14 2008
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From the information from that link you provided it sounds like you use those dolls when you want to invoke/bring forth something.



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TwistedLips
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09:47:11 Jan 14 2008
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I wouldnt think they are evil.
My friend's mum had a set.



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DragonReborn
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14:13:24 Jan 14 2008
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Kachinas are spirits who live mostly in the San Francisco Hills. They come to visit in the waning days of winter, essentially to assist with the growing season. They have myriads of functions. There are spirits for the earth, the sky, the sun, the clouds, the birds, the animals -- in other words for most issues of importance and circumstance. The major concerns dealt with by Kachinas are rain, fertility, rich harvest, good health, long life, and to achieve balance and harmony in nature. And more rain, please. The number of different types of Kachinas is uncertain.

It is believed that dead ancestors share the spirit world to do what they can for their descendants. The arrival of the Kachinas is celebrated. The men withdraw in the underground ceremonial rooms known as kivas. They don the garments, colors, accessories and masks ascribed to the various spirits. Thus attired, the Hopi relinquish part of their own spirit and assume the shape and essence of the Kachina. They follow the prescribed ritual. Eventually they emerge, dancing and singing the traditional verses. The public ceremonies begin. Such festivities happen with some frequency, in order to give emphasis to the objective. At age 10 the male children become eligible to be trained in Kachina studies. Women may function only as adjuncts on the peripheries of the festivities. By late July, when the planting and growing season is over, the spirit Kachinas return to their hills.

The Hopi artists carve the Kachina dolls either as representations of the spirits themselves to be honored, or as gifts to the children. They are not toys, but rather are educational materials. An "original" Kachina doll is a work of art. The artist has to find the special suitable cottonwood, season it with special clay, use intricate techniques, apply suitable paints made of earth pigments and appropriate ornaments with skill and patience. Inevitably, modern technology has encroached on the process, especially in the areas of paints, but concentrated effort is made to protect and defend the inherent meaning.

There has been the increasing pressure to produce the Kachina dolls for the commercial trade. The market seems insatiable. Gift shops and galleries are flooded with Kachina dolls, many of questionable origin and quality. Kachina dolls are lovely souvenirs and make great gifts. They can cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars. But the true collector should be beware. There are many poorly made cheaper versions created simply for quick sales to tourists. If you are an art collector, a few hours of research on the subject would be well worth the effort

Sahahria Edit: Stolen from here . It seems people think that plagiarism is ok. It is not and never has been.



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captgraybeard
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16:08:35 Jan 14 2008
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there just relics nice relics to keep



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RazaelRiezen
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16:36:53 Jan 14 2008
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hey dragonreborn where did you get that information from ?
a link to it would be nice



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catseye
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17:31:12 Jan 14 2008
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ive not heard of them before.ive got some japanese dolls which look so beautifull.and a little south american one of a girl holding a bowl.it doubles as a pipe.there is a few anime about live dolls and dolls having powers.



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Mikhail
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17:36:54 Jan 14 2008
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Good info DragonReborn I have also heard they are called the clowns of the Gods. If you have real Kachina keep them they are good luck to who ever posses them



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MalicSaraphim
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17:40:08 Jan 14 2008
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I doubt those dolls are evil or can eat your soul. I don't think any dolls can do that. I do agree though, that these superstitions were most likely made in order for people not to touch or steal them. I also think that they are relics.



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catseye
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17:40:47 Jan 14 2008
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there must have been something similar in japan at some time as there is folk legends about them.



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misbegottenlust
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19:34:34 Jan 14 2008
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Excellent reading and Katchinas are not evil they are just the physical embodiment of the deiety they represent .



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Rayn
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20:54:50 Jan 14 2008
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Very interesting stuff. Kachinas are not evil they are just the physical embodiment of the God they represent. Maybe ask your friend where they heard they were evil?



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Wolfspirits
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00:15:20 Jan 15 2008
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foolishness!
the dolls are healing tools and are still in use today. They are depictions of god/Gods
I have several myself and yes they are old and authentic.
and yes, tales about it being evil or bad luck to touch or take a doll thats not for you was just to deter people from stealing or touching.



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Wolfspirits
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18:20:29 Jan 15 2008
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......yes they are lucky to the one who possess them or gifted. They will bless your home, so dust them off and set them out on a shelf or area just for them. If in fact they are old and authentic (which I feel they are both) don't let people handle them.



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BytchofDarkness
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19:00:41 Jan 15 2008
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This is an interesting topic. Dolls have been handed down from ancestor to ancestor through out the years. No matter what culture they originated from.. they all seem to have the same meaning to them, well in most cases ie.voodoo dolls..that in itself is a whole nother topic of discussion. lol. but i am gonna reseach kachina dolls more as i am now very intrigued by them.



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DravenG
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19:00:47 Jan 15 2008
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I have never heard of them before, i will have to look more into it .



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BloodDrenchedRose
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21:05:44 Feb 09 2008
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I would have to go for the relic part



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madman1313
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21:18:11 Feb 09 2008
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The dolls possess spirits



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Lestatslittleslave
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21:48:41 Feb 09 2008
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Wow, this is pretty interesting, makes me even more frightened of dolls now though^_^;



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Namir
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21:51:28 Feb 09 2008
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LOL Why? Kachina Dolls are niether evil or harmful. LOL



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UrsaMorbier
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01:25:57 Feb 10 2008
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i have never heard of these dolls



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Abstract
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01:32:32 Feb 10 2008
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How can you have never heard of them when at the beginning of this thread you posted information about them?



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VW39
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23:07:07 Feb 10 2008
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Abstract -


So as to have a reason to raise thier post count.



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crazybaby
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23:37:38 Feb 10 2008
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I have never heard of them before, i will have to look more into it .



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dabbler
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01:34:23 Feb 11 2008
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never heard of them.



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BloodMoonAngel
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01:52:04 Feb 11 2008
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Never heard of them but they sound creepy.



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Abstract
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01:54:21 Feb 11 2008
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Ok, I think this has been answered pretty much to the point it will get answered. I'm going to close this down since its only getting one line responses that don't merit anything.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by Abstract on Feb 11 2008  •

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