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In some traditions, saints are humans who, for one of several reasons, are held in esteem. The tradition calls for prayer to saints to ask them to intercede for the supplicant. It seems that the people following these traditions may really be practicing a form of Necromancy.

What to you think?

I can see where it can be Necromancy, but is the same principle applied for the holy aswell?

I can see this one becoming a ver heated disscution .

I think that it would be like praying to ones lost loved ones or in the old japanse culture where they also looked to there lost loved ones for guidence .

I always looked at necromancy as invoking the presance of the dead or physically raising the dead

like how? explain

I would say that it would depend on your religion. As a Christian, it is NO way a form of necromancy. I'm not saying that other views or religions may view it as such. Just not the way my religion sees it.

I just do not see how praying to saints or even your forefathers can be associated with necromancy.

I would say yes as the relics in some cases are pieces of the saint's bones.

Excellent post! I believe you may be quite correct in that assumption simply because of the ways that Saints are treated in third-world countries! Especially those where Voodoo or Santa Ria are practised!

Thanks for the links skittles. It seems necromancy may connotate conjuring of the spirit and divination for information such as the future or past. Tha might be different than simple communications or requests.

I think the church employed the use of saints originally to get the pagans with many gods comfortable with coming to the church. Each has particular functions~ finding something that's lost, protecting travelers, helping women in childbirth, etc. It would be more comfortable to pray to somebody whose specialty it is after all. Not only the ancients, there are plenty of people today who feel that way maybe without realizing it. It just seems to get the job done better~ so yes, I guess you could consider that magickal.

Yes, the Catholic Church is a wonderful place to burn a candle and pray to the Goddess.

Yes well, if you were going to burn at the stake unless you did it there it would be.

I don't think of it as a form of necromancy. When I pray to a saint, I'm ~not~ trying to bring said saint back to life, but to simply ask him or her to help me emotionally/psychologically through something.

Some mis-interpret the meaning of Necromancy...It is not actually a way of creating life out of death on the contrary. It is a way for the spirits of the dead to communicate to you what their bidding is.

As the Saints are channeled through certain incantations, such as catholic prayers, the necromancy would have the saints summoned for medial purposes. To help aid and assist in any undertaking if they have the power to do so.

This as well has catholicism determined as a place of witchery as well. Magik users, as they practice the esoteric in their own way. An alter, an offering, an incantation and a god and goddess to pray to (Adonay and Mary).

The Necromany is perfectly understandable as well as the fact that most if not all individuals of said religion would counter attack this thread out of fear of what would ultimatly portray them as practitioners of (black magik) the arts.

In their eyes, they would not see it this way. It would be an outrage to them to consider praying to "blessed saints" as a way of necromany. But the points given are valid enough to justify the means and the actions.

As Skittles has already pointed out, this may turn into a very heated debate, just remember, religious context within threads is a dangerous aspect. My advice would be to keep the religion names out of the thread.

On a side note, many voodun practitioners are devout religious believers of catholicism.

Your not bringing the dead back to life or resurrecting them are you? Of course not, not even close. Plus you need to understand that some of these Saints never existed! They were merely the local gods/esses that were "converted."

I agree with Billy. I dont see that tradition being a form of Necromancy at all...

No, I dont think it is a form of necromancy, as Billy said, there is not even an N of necromancy present in it.

i too would have to agree with billy on this one. and i hope this does not become a heated argument rather than a discussion because of peoples belief systems

Shintoism is the Japanese religion that was refered to above. No the same as glorifying a Saint.
Shintoism is ancestor worship. You can find various definitions about the net.

In Eastern Orthodox religion a Saint is a person considered to be in heaven. They are not prayed to like in Roman Catholisism. I'm not Catholic so I can't really answer the question. In Eastern Orthodoxy we are to kiss the Icon of a Saint as a show of respect for a being that is considered holy. I think the word is venerate. Hope this helps.

I agree with Billy that it is not as he said some of the Saints were not even alive So how can it in anyway be related to Necro. I just do not get it

When I pray it is just to get guidance or even personal solitude Oh well this will be an interesting thread none the less :)

Every religion tends to have it's dead martyrs that people pray to for guidance or intervention. I don't think it's the same as necromancy since it's not an attempt to control the dead or use them as a tool. It's a request of a 'higher being' or an 'ascended soul' (if that's your belief) and within Catholicism or Santeria a saint is basically an angel by decree and not a mere ghost or spirit.

I think that's just praying. lol. I mean as skittles said, it's like how in some Japanese cultures they pray to their ancestors for wisdom.
You pray to whoever you worship for intervention in your life, I think it's along the same lines.

I've always seen necromancy as physically raising the dead.

Necromancy isn't always about raising the dead but it does seem to insist on having a control over the dead. It's a master/servant kind of art and since praying implies supplicance, the control is on the wrong side for it to be Necromancy.

I think you must to choose a definition to the term "necromancy" first.
There are some senses of the word that are incompatible with each other in the same system of refferences and that lead to sophism.

I think your reaching a bit...

Its more like asking help from god(s) its a celestial help..

Thank you dragonrouge, the art of necromancy is indeed an art and it is done with a purpose in mind and to call to many different types of dead. I wouldn't think praying to god, goddesses or what have you would be linked to necromancy.

I have always thought of necromancy to be raising the dead not just praying to some long dead saint or ancestor. You are invoking the spirit of the saint to come to help you but I don't see that as being necromancy.

i dont understand the 2nd part of the question can you elaborate

Necromancy is the calling of the dead so I don't understand where praying to saints would be considered necromancy at all.

i agree with what jdenoyon wrote above it's npot praying to bring saints back to life but to ask for help either protector heal someone.

FelixFelix said that necromancy seems to insist on having control over the dead, and the control's on the wrong side in the case of praying to saints.

I think this is the simplest and most well-reasoned argument that can be made on this topic, so I'm not going to add anything besides:

Bravo! Well said!

I still think there's a huge difference - even if your definition of necromancy is something akin to death worship. I personally have always placed necromancy along other arcane studies as a method of control or use and praying is a request. However, if we want to look at necromancy as some kind of benevolent death worship, then even still, a saint is supposed to be something of an ascended being. It's no longer considered a ghost or a dead spirit. It's supposed to have become something more like an angel or holy host. I'm sure a catholic may be able to explain it better but the principle idea is that a saint is more than a dead person.

I agree with 2007skittles.


Prayer and Necromancy are two totally different things.

Not really. They don't really have much to do with each other.

I think everyone has fantastic points!

Could the meaning of "Calling the dead" in necromancy but linked with praying to the Saints? IMO, praying is tantamount to invoking the name of the dead, asking for them to hear you and come to you in your time of need. I could be missing the point tho...

In necromancy you have to call to the persons GOD and the religion he believed in for you to raise him. To ask the saints is not going to the source so your result wouldn't be accurate unless thats what you want - a tainted result (not good)

Here is a great link about Necromancy and the various religions

Actually from my understanding necromancy, was started by the greeks, as a way to talk to the dead useing hades and the fareie man as a guide as well, thru the dark underworld. this was my understanding, if your looking for information on this i would suggest, looking into the author konstintino's , his books bring great incite in to that art.

Also if you want to read about it here is another link which claims to be the best resourse on the subject of Necromancy

I had always had the belief that necromancy was intended to raise the dead, I am sure some incantation is used where they pray to different god, or saints...

In general praying to saints is just like praying to a certain god or goddess.. your not gonna raise dead people from it. Alot of certain spanish cultures believe in having a patron saint as for guidance or protection.

I was on the phone with my sister ( she used to be Catholic devoutly so .. but she is much better now) and as she explains it to me...

You do not pray to the saints to answer your prayer.. that is the provence of God and God alone. You pray to the saints to kinda put in a good word as it were for you and your pray .. the thought being as they are holy enough to be a saint their word would have more weight.

saints live on a different plane of existance.they are under no obligation to talk to you if you call on them.and very rarely do.somebody asked a saint to marry him and she appeared in his room and said yes.

I don't see it that way. I see praying to the saints, or lost loved ones, or whatever else you want to pray to, as asking for guidance. There is no necromancy involved there.

I was always under the inpression that necromancy was the practice of either raising the spirits of the dead , or trying to invoke there spirts in direct communication . When you are praying you are not asking the spirt to show up infront of you and give you information or answere questions . All of the prayers I have ever heard are asking for the "divine" to watch over and protect us . Sometimes to guide our lives in a more indirect manner . I have never heard a prayer asking "god " or a "saint" to apper infront of someone . I am not saying they aren't out there . If you were to ask for a "saint" or "god" to appear befor you than yey i think that would be considered necromancy . Otherwise it just falls short to me .

lycian0006 - praying is NOT a form of necromancy because if that was the case than everyone that prays would be concidered trying to raise the dead. If you read the articles that I posted with the links especially the second one you will understand the rituals of what necromancy is and how it's performed. The prayer that is said is part of the ritual to ask permission from the God in the specific practice of religion out of respect to release the soul and protect it while its being summoned.

If you consider necromancy to be praying to the dead, then I guess praying to saints might be considered necromancy...But so would Catholicism. Catholics pray to Mary.
Or is she considered a saint? *shrugs*

There are a variety of thought on this subject. I find it interesting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

No I don't think it is, praying for guidence and help, differs from that.

Praying to Saints is really more along the lines of spiritual communication than necromancy, as the supplicant is not forcing their cooperation, nor is it so much about the Saint's death as it is their life. The supplicant is simply requesting (in some cases, begging) for their help and/or representation before God.

In the original question you said "pray to saints to interceed," Prayer=petition. The saint could chose not to interceed on your behalf. In necromancy, the dead has no choice but to do what you ask. You are in control of them.
I wonder If you could perform necromancy on a saint. I don't really need to know.

Praying to Saints is a form of communication and guidance. I wouldn't say necromancy though.

The asserted definitions of necromancy on this thread have been very broad. My own dictionary’s definition is unsatisfactory to me. It only has two entries; one rather narrow, the other extremely broad: “(1) The practice of claiming to foretell the future by alleged communication with the dead, (2) black magic; sorcery.” (Webster’s New World Dictionary, 3d ed. 1991). At any rate, most people on this thread have a consensus that it entails communication with, or supplication to, the Dead. I wish to offer an observation about that premise from a Catholic/Christian perspective. In Catholic philosophy, the Saints all began as fallible, mortal Human Beings. (The possible exception in Catholic philosophy might be Mary, the Mother of Jesus. I do not understand this idea completely, and cannot adequately explain it coherently) (Faith is not always easy to explain as rational thought). Although the Saints did “die” in the sense that the heartbeat and respiration stopped, the Catholic/Christian perspective is that they were reborn in the Resurrection and, therefore, are very much alive now, with a powerful spiritual presence and force that is able to interact with humans. They are not just ghosts; the idea is that they are something qualitatively different – a transformed living being imbued with the love and grace of the creator. If you buy into this idea (and you are free to accept or reject it according to your free will), praying to the Saints is not Necromancy because it is not communication with the Dead, but with the Living.

from what i understand necromancy, is the art of dealing with the dead and it was profected by the Greeks and the only god involved is hades.

Praying to Saints falls under ancestral worship as a few others have stated. In Christianity All Saints Day is/was the main holiday for this.

Wiki Link

This is something I've never even thought about!

I would have to say that praying to a Saint isn't a form of necromancy, more because I view necromancy as the act of raising the dead. This stands from a spiritual standpoint in the way that prayer is a way of directing energy to one's purpose, which doesn't necessarily mean the energy is directed to raise the dead.

I would have to say no. Praying to the saints is not in any way a form of necrmancy. It's like two completely different ends of the spectrum.

i see, i have no answer to that ?

doesnt necromancy imply the summoner is also the one that controls the one they invoke and it is done so as a violation of the will of the person? worshiping a saint is more a form of idolatry or supplemental worship.

I believe you are correct on that also, Sleeper.

Thanks to all for their input.

Well said, SLEEPER.

honestly...i dont know

well said sleeper