this is not an attack on religion it just looks at both sides of a creature believed to of lived in a kingdom and then went to battle
Angels a messenger of god.
Demons are personified by what we may call bad behaviors or obsessive behavior, it is said during possession they drain as they become and we don’t realize were doing it most of the time as they grow …
I don’t find all demons to be bad, I welcome some of the characteristics in my life like “Buer” a demon who bestows knowledge of nature, philosophy and herbology. Can heal
And has fifty legions at his beckoning.
I don’t see no angels offering that?
What I do notice is demons offering wisdom and intelligence like the stories of the wisest creature in the garden a serpent.
Where the angels like to keep you less than knowledgeable and don’t offer much for your suffering?
Tell me your view on this thought
I believe some demons are not as bad as most think, and that some angels are just as bad as demons.
I never thought of it quite that way but you're kinda right.
Biblically speaking, angels told Mary of the child she carried, I would think that would impart wisdom and knowledgs somewhat. Don't forget the angels who sang on the day of Jesus' birth.
Most people only hear and read about the evil demons. They perceive them as from hell so they must be bad things attracted to bad people. I guess it all depends on how you look at things and how well you research.
Well yeh when you think Lucifer the bearer of the light was linked to the morning star for a long time… then demonized as the star was to be linked with Jesus.
He was also so good he was a top ranked angel till his star was needed…. Just find that tough luck and really hard to believe you live in the “kindom” and then cast out.
Botis and bune both offer knowledge and ability to see the future
Angels apparently are there only to guide mankind into resolving their own issues and doing the right thing... dont forget sacrifice is real big in the world of Angels and Good-Doers... to suffer and to succeed makes the success worth more.
*snorts* Give me a good shortcut any day
As the first angels of the Bible ("fallen" angels) were also its first demons (as per the Book of Revelation), it becomes obvious that both terms are historically synonymous.
Thus, angels one day... devils the next. Ain't religious intolerance grand?
Yes, all demons were once angels. It seems to me that angels and/or God work on a "need to know" basis whereas demons don't really care about needing to keep things "secret".
it comes down 2 this good V evil ; demons r angels gone bad and vise versa a continuos fight,battle,controversy, etc.
Demons were Angels before they became Corrupted by Lucifer and his greed.
Angel workshops are the 'in' thing where I live just now.
I wonder if anyone mentions what UpirLikhyj has said at any of them ?
I'm about to read a bood called an Angel saved my life......what's in a name ? We have been programed to believe good things are ' Angelic ' and bad things are 'Demonic'.
I absolutely love you for posting this!
Now I'm going to give you a weird answer - have you read Memnoch the Devil by Anne Rice? If so - I am very into this book as it gives an interesting twist as to the Devil's purpose as well as hell's purpose and touches very strongly on this subject.
As for angels granting knowledge - that boils down to belief. Are the spirits you speak with while astral projecting angels?
I do not tend to see them as such - but that doesn't mean it isn't so.
Personally I think all of these beings have the ability to interact with us. What information they decide to share depends on them and probably the person asking. ;)
I highly recommend Andrew Collins' book: "From the Ashes of Angels" if the historical origins of the angel mythos are of interest.
When stripped of all the religious hocus-pocus and viewed historically, it becomes obvious that the imagery and iconography of "angels" and "demons" are not at all extrapolated from historical accounts at all. Instead, who and what those originally called "Watchers" and "Sons of God(s)" was hijacked by religion and used for their own self-serving purposes. Today they are nothing more or less than religious concepts of "Good" and "Evil" that have been anthropomorized for easy Human marketing to the uneducated and the superstitious.
My vew on this is that angels/ demons are a judao concept and a way for thes who wrote the bible to illastrate what they thought to be good/ evil
The way I understand it is that in genesis it says it took 7 days to create the earth and before the light was darkness, but if you think of a universal balance of things as there is good then there must be an evil, so in that thinking how long is 7 days to the creator?Plus , if like I said you follow the universal balance then there were demons in the darkness, before the light.
Plus , I do believe Belial coerced Lucifer into rebellion and getting thrown out of heaven and if that is true then Belial would be the first demon.
This is just my opinion though and hard to verify it, but i do believe the demons and angels have been fighting since the dawn of time.Makes you think that we may have taken the demons home and they may just want it back and the angels are the ones commissioned to protect mankind from them, just an opinion though.
Angels, I believe, are sent to earth to help people in dire straights. Sometimes a person or persons will come into your life for a brief period of time, and nothing but good things happen and then they are gone, never to be heard from again. The bible teaches us to learn to look for angelic intervention. On the other hand, the devil can disguise his legions to look very angelic........ so you never truely know who you are dealing with. Or do you?
Thanks guys and I believe that demons were around before the fall of the angels.
Hail eris
Well some interesting point being made.
I find it fascinating so much of Alister Crowley’s work is based on conversation with angels especially the guardian angel. I find that extremely interesting… still moving on CBA69 do share this information of demons before the war of the angels and some who fell … well it was a shed load I guess
As far as I know they fell and had sex with cains kids and that was not too cool… I also see the great Azazel taught man how to make knives and shields, basically how to protect ones self.
I agree that all demons aren't bad. angel offer protection, but leave you dumbfounded. While demons offer you knowledge but not protection.
First of all Lucifer was the guardian to the gates of heaven and was one of the most powerful angels.
It took two to replace him at the gates when he was banished.
Now demons are made from human souls that are sent to hell as in belief.
MY QUESTION IS How can the devil have been made in the first place Adam & Eve were the first humans with souls.
The devil was the one who tricked them but how is it possible for him to have done this when there where no human souls to make him a angel then a demon?????
I always figured Demons and Angels were a way of balancing things. Like the Yin and Yang. You need both sides to reach the happy medium.
I have always felt intimidated by the stories of some Angels, there can be something forceful and scary about them.
Demons, not so much...Maybe it's because I'm expecting it :P
Despite the later angel and demon mythologies that followed, the fact remains that the original stories of the "Fallen Angels" began first in Sumer as the "Anunnake" over 2,000 years before the first accounts were written of them in Genesis (the Bible), and the account in Genesis predated by several centuries the many later mythologies wherein actual names were ascribed to both angels and demons (e.g., Michael, Gabriel, Azazel, Semyaza, Lucifer, Belial, Beelzebub).
Thus... despite the current lexicon of angelic and demonic terms and names, all of these were invented millennia after the original accounts and... thus... cannot at all be considered legitimate or historically accurate.
Just as Santa Claus was not originally a fat jolly guy flying around in a sleigh being pulled by eight reindeer with names like Rudolph, Donner and Blitzen (all the invention of Clement Clarke Moore, a 19th Century poet), so also the original "Fallen Angels," later vilified as the first "demons," did not originally have any of the later names given them by writers in the 1st and 2nd Century CE, thousands of years later!
While later religious mythology has "Satan" predating the "fallen angels," yet the very notion of someone named "Satan" (much less Belial) wasn't even invented until centuries AFTER the "Fallen Angels" had already been written about in the book of Genesis.
Thus... again... the original "Nefilim" ("fallen angels") were the historical precedent for the later mythologies of both angels and demons in Semitic religion.
I see so you are saying that there where souls already made before the conviction of adam & eve???
Okay... if we are to look at this religiously, there were many souls created long before even the Earth was created, much less Adam & Eve. At the very least, there were all souls of the "Sons of God" (bene ha elohim):
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
(Book of Job 38:4-7)
And who were these "Sons of God" whose souls were already created and "shouted for joy" before even the Earth was created? Yep... these were the same "Sons of God" (bene ha elohim) spoken of in Genesis 6:1-4 who descended to Earth and took them "wives of all that they chose."
These were those who were later falsely vilified as "evil" and who have ever since been referred to as the "Fallen Angels"... the first actual "angels" (and later, "demons") mentioned in the Bible... and their earthly progeny were later also vilified... as "vampires."
I understand you but you might want to break it down becaus eothers may not.
To properly break this down would take quite a lot of time and create a post considerably longer than most would appreciate at this venue. Additionally, I feel I have already explained quite a bit in the three prior posts I have placed at this thread alone.
For those wishing to learn more, I have explained most of this at my profile. For additional information, simply do a google.com search for such terms as "fallen angels," "bene ha elohim," "watchers," and "anunnaki."
Kind of old Testament with the warrior/wrath of angels.. like how they are portrayed in the trilogy "The Prophecy" with Christopher Walken as the archangel Gabriel. To me, it was a fascinating movie with how the angels and Lucifer were portrayed with the war in Heaven. How jealous angels were with God's making man.
But how they were portrayed as the warriors they were, and not people that had died and gone to Heaven and sprouted wings. They were inhuman creatures and killed each other for their own goals. Lucifer being the first fallen angel and how he used everyone for his own advantage. So the demons were sprung from a fallen angel.
I believe Demons and Angels are just another common Good vs Evil. But true there are some bad angels and some good demons.
Interesting things, Upir!
But I guess there are some mixed stuff on this thread:
- angels=the messinger of God(Elohim) and they could not be the same with the fallen ones --> they are not working for the divine energy , but against it... so it may be good for you but not good for others
-nephilim are the sons of the fallen ones and not the fallen ones themselves as it is told in the Semyaza myths
-the fallen angels are not exactly the opposites of the "good angels" sounds incredible but before the falling they had bigger power: remember that their leader was the right hand of God before the tempting of man ;)
- I agree that the medieval demons lexicons are not to be trusted
Angels and Demons are spirits, thus they are the same. The name of angel or demon is just man's way to classify them as good or evil, depending on your perception of the term.
2 Corinthians 11:14: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
Arent the 2 words angel and demons created to make the difference between good and evil? I kinda have thought it was just a way to seperate it. Frases like "You are an angel on my shoulder" means in a good way. Or "His demons once again show itself" means in a bad way. But the origin may be the same in the end.
Read this Link,It kinda interesting.
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/demons.htm
What I was saying is there was something in the dark before the light came.No matter what name you give it,it was there.That has to due with universal balance, if there is a good there is an ultimate evil, same as chaos and order, but there is always an equal and opposite.
Religion has given us the idea of a demon as an evil creature... same as Satan... i think that all of them are or were angels... but the difference is that some angels wanted to know more... wanted to have the knowledge... angels exist and they are heavenly creatures... in my opinion, religion has made us see the thirst of knowledge as something bad... because when men know... they are free... they can´t be dominated...
All Christian Demon's are against the idea of Christianity, where as all Rakasha's are against the idea of Hinduism... Is that true? I don't think so... Because after all it is said that Satan was created by god, as his nemesis. I'm just going on a rant here.
I have to agree with Lavisbre. Not all demons are bad, just like not all angels are good. But then again it depends on how you were brought up.
Demon is too widely used, a demon is evil and wicked, if a creature is helpful why would it be classified as a demon? Gotta take a look at the big picture, we have angels, we have demons, but no one has named the ones sitting in center feild not picking a side, so lets call em, dangels...lol.
I am not to sure that demons are really all that bad. I live in a haunted house, there are a few supernatural things that happen in my house, so I do not think demons are bad at all.
No demon is purely evil and no angel is purely good. Lucifer, the king of demons, was an angel. He only fell from heaven.
If I may intercede Rosho satan was never a match for god in christian thinking because the devil was created by god.
So therefore he could destroy him if he wanted to as being his creator
Yeah it is a good post so what is your opinion pathervamp??
Angels can offer the same knowledge and wisdom as Demons do. It's just a matter of who you decide to listen to. Most people view Angels as coming from Heaven and Demons coming from Hell, and therefore Angels are stereotypically associated with good and Demons associated with Angels.
Me personally, I see Angels as guides that help you and Demons as obstacles that need to be overcome.
nice...i have no problems i welcome them as i do angels and give them a greater respect than angels ...
From a judeo-christian perspective, demons are trying to mislead man into damnation. That means that even though they are offering knowledge, support, or even healing, it would be to either mislead or build a false sense of trust so as to mislead later.
Now outside that rather narrow perspective, any being that exercised a supernatural power either for me or against me would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis since I have no religious faith of any kind on which to prejudge someone.
In addition, I've always been rather drawn to the idea of a soul buying wicked influence like 'the Devil'. What an interesting and charming icon. So even if a Christian truth of a demon wanted to lead me astray it might not be enough to turn me away from such a arrangment.
Felix, you brought up a good point of the demon misleading man in some way or another. I wanted to say something along those lines in my previous post but I lost my train of thought. So thanks for unintentionally finishing it for me :)
Felix,
The second paragraph of your latest post re: a demon being considered so based on whether it were perceived as working for you or against you brings up part of the point of my own argument: someone's "demon" (the one being worked against in favor of another) might well be someone else' "angel" for so doing. Thus... both terms are relativistically -- synonymous.
uh huh right.....all i know is that both are true and i believe in both
Well certainly Upir but that has to be outside the more accepted religious definitions of a demon as within Christianity a demon COULD do something to benefit you temporarily but that long term it's goals would be your damnation.
Felix,
Yes... if one chooses to believe the biblical accounts despite the glaring contradictions and absurdities re: angels and demons.
Felix,
Yes... if one chooses to believe the biblical accounts despite the glaring contradictions and absurdities therein re: angels and demons.
I only bring it up because it's such a widely accepted opinion and more accepted I think than the idea that demons can be helpful. Still, I tend to agree more than anything that a demon, angel or any other sentient creature would be nearly impossible as a totally evil or totally good creature. I know that biblically, we have free will and they don't but it's hard to wrap one's head around even the idea of a sentient being without free will.
Careful there, dear Felix, for you are employing Loigc quite aptly.. and as we both know, Logic and Religion rarely mix. You have reasoned well that it is most difficult to comprehend a sentient being for whom free will is not possible. That's because such a being could not exist and still be held responsible for its actions.
Take the Logic to its inevitable conclusion... cuz you're almost there. Were any sentient being unable to exercise free will and freely choose for itself what it will and will not do, then by very definition of that inability, it cannot be held responsible for its actions given that it had no choice in taking the actions that it did. And where such exists, there can be no fair punishment or reward, for the choices and actions taken were never its own to make. Thus, as God rules all, including even Satan, then by such undeniable Logic... it is GOD who has been, by such illogic, made the Author of both All Good and All Evil.
And there is but only ONE of the inherent absurdities of which I mentioned that makes Judeo-Christian religion unresolvably contradictory.
Which Upir.. has been going on for ages and ages. Seems like we are all going in circles here. But it's a good topic nonetheless.
what i have taught that deamons are bad and angels are good... am i right ?
Well sort of ……
One classification system used states angels are angelic and bring messages from a god and the demons are tricksters who work for a alternative god.
What were looking for in this thread is what do you think?
Some very valid points made are demons and angels are the same just politically swaying one way or the other. My question to that is cant they change there minds and sway back and if so do they become angelic?
As for whos bad and whos good, im a great believer in the winning hand writes history as it sees fit, the demons all seem to offer man a knowledge to be self sufficient to grow spiritually and achieve new heights, the angels seem to bring a message from a god that allows such suffering and pain to all ages and races….. just makes me wonder who won and was it the good side?
If an angel is meant to re-present the light and good, and the demon dark and evil.. I would root for the Angel. Light prevails over Dark.
Upir - well that is why faith of any kind eludes me ;)
lavisbre - If one accepts that a demon is not of free will (just as angels are supposedly not of free will) then no, an angel or demon could not 'switch sides'. However, as Upir and I have been suggesting, sentient life without free will is difficult for the human mind to grasp without envisioning some kind of zombie which again seems to lack sentience.
However, I'd also point out in the interests of defending religious belief (though it isn't my own), that most who believe in god would suggest that it is demonic influence which brings suffering and pain and much of that comes through their given knowledge to step away from a 'loving god'. Eating from the fruit of knowledge is said to be what exposed Adam and Eve to dangerous thoughts which led them both literally from Eden and metaphorically into a violent and selfish path of life.
i don't ascribe to the thought that there's necessarily a "good" or "bad" side....take the Laws of Satanism, for example.
i think the Winner overall writes the history, so demons as being "evil"...it's all in the eye of the beholder or the pen of the person that holds the opinion.
Ive always been taught that all demons are angels, or once were...
Lavisbre I will say this when they change or become of the dark decent I do not think they can return for there soul is meant to roam and be tortured for all time.
There is no redemption according to christians etc. when they fall they stay there.
As to if it is another I will say it is what the believer makes it out to be because I share the beliefs of many as I am non-religious.
I think that certain Angels fell out favor with the ruler of that realm and were sent to another realm. If they are good or evil may well be in the eyes of the beholder. I do believe that many creatures of this type are best left alone by normal humans.
One thing you have to admit, is that religions and belief systems in general provide their followers with guidelines on dealing with those creatures of other realms. Be it stay away from demons and ask for help from your guarian angel to following specific rituals and spells to protect yourself or even dealing with spirit guides while on a spirit jouney.
The Angel Gabriel revealed to The Prophet Muhammad (P.B.O.H.) The Holy Qur'an.
The Angel Gabriel revealed to The Prophet Muhammad (P.B.O.H.) The Holy Qur'an.
this is very interesting,but i just looked up the definition of demon and this is what came up
devil: one of the evil spirits of traditional Jewish and Christian belief
monster: a cruel wicked and inhuman person
Angels don't want us to know what's really going on in the world as opposed to demons who want to show us reality. Now not all demons are like this, some are after us to feed off our innocence..
i like this quote
"If you are frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see demons tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the demons are really angels, freeing you from the Earth" from a film i think
also helps with this black and white red and blue coke n pepsi divide.
What makes someone and angel or a demon? The way they act, the things they believe in or where they are?
Thanks for your post, it is considered a drive by post when you fail to read the original post and just give it a reply based on the limited and biased information based on your own perception taken from a limited source…
Pain full at the least lol
We all know what a ruling religion has labeled angels and demons.
Im asking you as a thinking being to give an opinion on some facts that demons actually offer a lot of good stuff and not much in the angel department but suffer as the big guy works in a freaky manor.
So once again from the top we got the point you posted a clip from the internet … would you like to add something of worth to the real question……
well a thing with angels and demons is that demons are much more common so of course they offer more, very rarely do you come in contact with an angel and an angel does have less to offer and less knowledge.
more people know demons, so of course you're going to think what is more familiar is better. I personally also would prefer a demon, i'm just saying tha'ts also an influence on the topic
A demon dosen't have to be bad or good, they seem to be what you need them to be and would give you anything you could bargen for, if the price was right.
Lavisbre, was your drive by post comment directed toward me? I,m a bit unsure to whom it was directed. Just curious :)
Lavisbre, was your drive by post comment directed toward me? I,m a bit unsure to whom it was directed. Just curious :)
No to motlycrew fan lol
Why do you double post ? that is directed to you lol
I guess I am double clicking in error! Motlycru fan??????? I'm lost ;}
I believe angels and demons to carry the same belief... the same promise. It could be said that angels offer wisdom, but dont so as to protect the humans whom would likely use the knowledge unwisely. Demons, it seems, dont have such hang-ups... and as disgraced former inhabitants of Heaven can relate to humans whom were cast out of the Garden of Eden...
Lucifer wouldnt have been cast out if not for his natural pride and Adam would not have been cast out of God's Eden if not for the knowledge of the forbidden fruit...
But is Adam, is Eve... a symbolisation of all that is evil.
Are they Hell
I belive that angels are just as bad if not worse than demons. It is only because of the name that we have labeled them that makes people think that one is better than the other, angels ofer us pretty much nothing but the church classifies them as being acceptable, where demons offer many things but are scorned in most religious society. So it all comes down to what you belive and who you decide to belive.
lol i didnt double post,anywho my whole feeling is a bit traditional,i view angles and demons as just that,but this is by far the most interesting thread
I think myself that Demons and Angels are more of an idea than anything because i believe there is no heaven or Hell there is a place we go but its how are minds are set when we die and how we have lived are lives there are more graceful places than heaven and much worse places than hell,so when its are time too return too earth we are reborn and keep returning until we have learn all the lessons we need too,so when it comes too Demons and Angels too me they are just spirits of natrue but thats just how i see things guys.
I think angels are protecters of humans and demons (some are good) are like the destruction of humans.
It is the belief that all angels are the same and no different in anything because both have strengths and weakness
I don't think that all angels are the same, because if they are then aren't all demons the same? I don't think so because there are some pretty powerful demons out there.
Lucifer was never an angel. Lucifer was a Roman god created by Diana as the god of light and her consort. He isn't even mentioned in Biblical writings. There is a reference that uses that word but it was substituted (old testament) because it is a Latin word and it was talking about a King having fallen in stature because of his behavior and no longer shone in majestry like Venus the morning star which in Latin was Lucifer. (ask a Rabbi they will tell you, its their book) It's an urban legend more or less and as for demons...what is one culture's demon is another's gods. Most often the actual source is the Nephilim the offspring of the Watchers but that is subjective because many think of those who lost the angelic war as demons but they are all angels. Many, many were in that battle so that's a whole heck of a lot of angels. Because they lost the war doesn't make them dark just because the winning side supposedly were in the right. Its a judgment call. If this ever really happened at all, no one knows it is all based on belief and writings many of which were written long after the incident was suppose to have happened. Its called folklore.
I don't believe those things labeled demonics that possess people are that at all. I think they are something else that we don't yet fully understand that impersonate what we believe in because it scares us.
What about Djinn, why couldn't they be just as real as what some believe in called demons? They are suppose to be smart, cunning and invisible unless they want to be seen. Why would they be less viable as a source of some of this than from the Judeo/Christian ethic?
honestly, i also think that it requires belief in such things, and a strong judeo-christian background, which many of us don't have, myself included.
i dont think you need belife in a religion ... i do belive we must understand this wasnt pulled out of the air.
i find it amazing to find Alister worked with angels all the time.
many religions believe in demons and angels, but honestly, you have to believe in them.
that's all i am sayin'.
Thank you, Molligrew --
Thank you for pointing out the fact that the one biblical reference to "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12-14) was a mistranslation found only in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible and never was intended to have any reference whatsoever to any actual supernatural "demonic" being.
And yet here we continue to find people referring to "Lucifer" as though this complete mistranslation actual referred to a living supernatural being in whom they believe wholeheartedly.
When will we learn to view these terms as religious myth with historical peculiarities and not actual dyed-in-the-wool truths in which to believe completely and unquestioningly?
In fact they are the same because neither can destroy the other the only one who can destroy a angel is the devil and god a demon or angel.
I can see not all demons as being bad because if you go by christian belief then a demon is just an angel who was cast out with the devil for either not going against the devil or for siding with him and not following god. So an angel and a demon really are the same thing it is just the actions they took that made them what they are now.
thank you, Upir, that's the point that i was trying to get at....IF you believe what has been translated into various religious texts and whatnot...IF the things written about demons and angels are "true".
lavisbre -- when you say "Alister," to whom are you referring? Aleister Crowley, perhaps? And if so... do you truly believe him to be all that he claimed?
...back to my point, belief per se is in the eye or the pen of the beholder, who's to say any of it is true? i believe by empirical evidence only.
yes upir ... alister crowley indeed a wonder to the G dawn and chaos ..
his work was with angels for most of his work... he even tryed to do solomons craft... some say it was also his begining of the end.
Lavisbre -
If Aleister Crowley is considered by you a "wonder" where information on angels is concerned, then we have diametrically opposed views on what constitutes legitimate information and emipirical evidence. As for what prompted Crowley's end, that would be his extreme drug addiction to heroin... not any claimed involvement with "angels."
As others have also recently and correctly opined... angels and demons are merely two sides of the same dogmatic coin of Judeo-christian mythology: one good... one bad.
upir .... lol
where do we sart ... im at work right now but will be on in four hours ... till then tell me why you think he was named the most evil man in the world. why and when did he get this tital ... do you know.... as for drugs and what someone who takes them has done just look at art music hell anything spiritural basicaly creative.... oh i cant wait to get home for this one lol
When you think about it, our understanding of Angels comes from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Are there any other traditions that have angels. Eastern beleifs, native american?
Some might say that spirit guides are similar to angels, but that was a different thread.
Where do we get our background of demons? All the same places?