Do you believe that the myths of the past and present have any basis in real events or people from long ago?
Were the heroes and gods of the past actually real people/ were they just extraordinary in their amazingness?
This obviously excludes any actual people that are mentioned in mythology. And this does not exclude the Bible.
Knowing that people remember fables, and stories better than history, merging metaphor with prodigy insured fame (or noteritiy) look at John Henry He was a collective of Men Miners, and Train Tunnel Unions, facing off against modernization. Oral Traditions, turned to printed word, Those who printed had "liberties" that allowed slants to be grafted in for astetic popularism.
Quite frankly, no. I seriously doubt any of the mythological characters (Hercules, Moses, Jesus, etc.) were real people, nor do I think they were based of any individuals. Either they were created as an idyllic character (case in point: John Henry) for inspiration, etc., or they were simply imagined up as part of some religious myth.
Or travelers told tall tales , and had "artifacts", and "evidence" that somehow convinced simple unadvanced folk.
A statue of John Henry (The Steel-drivin' Man of song and legend) stands alongside State Highway 12 south of the town of Talcott, in Summers County, WV, USA. The statue is placed above the Big Bend tunnel on the C&O railroad where many believe the Man vs. Machine competition originally took place.
To some he was more then a legend and did battle a steam engine to the death or died from working himself to death.
For an example of of how the transition from limited press, and spanning press' effect on literary evolution. Read the Brothers Grimm, and how many
Became gentrified fairy tales.
Could be real but I wouldn't ignore the chance that they were invented to give hope to people or tales told to children to sleep.
However it is said that legends, often have something true but people add tales to make them better too.
Classical mythology could very well be like urban mythology. Somewhere along the line somebody did a heroic deed kind of like what's mentioned in the myth. Like how with urban myths the story teller is connectedly removed from the event or person being mentioned in the story (ie, a cousin to one of my uncle's college roommates). That type of personal tie-in like that takes the story just beyond the reach of being verifiable.
I've got to say it but I wont get into any 'debate' over this particular point because I respect the thread author and the forums in general enough to not push it over into that direction.
Jesus, Moses and pretty much everyone in the Bible actually existed. To say otherwise just goes to show how little a person knows. There is a ton of non-Biblical evidence that backs me up. Almost no one in the academic or intellectual community doubts the physical existence of someone named Jesus, Moses, David, Peter... the only doubt deals with whatever divinity they might have had or about some of the stories relating to them.
Now, as for the topic itself. I firmly believe that most myths have a basis in reality as do a lot of others. That doesn't mean that there is reality in Zeus throwing lightning bolts or things along those lines. What it does mean is that many myths draw from things that really happened such as King Arthur.
I will address your statement, as I heartily disagree with it. Unless you are aware of actual non-biblical historical evidence that Jesus or Moses existed, then out with it. Because there certainly is no evidence of the exodus from Egypt, there are only two historians from the supposed time of Christ that even mention the NAME "Chrestus," and even then there is still no evidence that the person of said name was in any way connected with the gospels. No mention of miracles, no record of a Jesus ever being crucified under Pontius Pilate, and according to one historian, Nazareth was a Jewish settlement that was established between 80-200CE. How is it that a man from Nazareth died at least 50 years before it even existed?
I will not go into a debate over whether or not any Character throughout history lived or was made from folkloric storytelling. But I will give suggestions for good research material on the individual known in the past as Jesus. The reference material that I am aware of is a book called: The Hiram Key. This book is very descriptive in its dialogue as well as format. The characters depicted within the book itself are based on actual living people who once lived long ago. As well, there is a very large bibliography in the back of the book as to where the actual referance material for the book creation came from.
I don't subscribe in any religion because each and every one of them twist things on their own convinience, but i do believe in various characters in their sacred text and history conceptions such as; Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Gautama, etc... As for myths i believe they dont hold a literal meaning as actual gods or figure in most of the cases yet they might hold a truth behind them, as for a story to pass from generation to generation like a sermon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6itXpIDkCY&NR=1
Believe it or not, the ancient "gods" of the past in egyptian mythology were actual living breathing individuals. The king making ceremonies were in place for their people to idolize them as gods for respect purposes.
Thoth, Ra, Kaops, Kufu, Isis and Osiris were all real individuals at one time. This was before mesopotamian times, when it was still called Sumer.
Goes to show just how much history can be changed by those of whom know how to manipulate such change.
vvSoulshroudevv - You're very much right when you say that many of the Egyptian gods were, at a time, real individuals.
As for "proof", again do some reading. Heck around 1/4 of Egyptian Pharaohs only have mention from a single source such as a stelle or random temple column but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. There's also a fair amount of mention about a guy named Moses, plagues, death of first borns etc. in Egypt, Persia and Greece dating from the reported time of the actual event. Fifty years ago most didn't think that Egypt and Greece even knew each other but now we know that not only did they know about each other but Greece was the only other civilisation at the time that Egypt considered worthy of trade with. Even the History Channel makes no issue about it (Jesus and such) and they aren't exactly known for having an evil conservative agenda to rule the world through fear like that pesky Jew did lol
The same can be said for the vast majority of any history more than 1,500 years old. I don't think anyone doubts the existence of the Druids even though our main source only comes from Julius Caesar (if we discount the whole of Church documentation). Point being, take another look and make sure you're not reading some opinion laden article.
X how about links to those academics who support the existence of Biblical Characters, you state that many well known academics have presented such accounts. Links please, you say ( Do some reading/ research.. Yet provide no links..
X is an ordained minister he has the bible itself as a source.Not everyone gets their information from the net.I get tired of everyone NEEDING a link to have proof of something from what one says.There were books for information before the net ever existed.Some people actually remember things they read in a book and share the info that way.
He makes bold assertions. How simple is it to provide links, even if I believed I would call his claims out. Then if he has any valid links, then why has it not exploded on the circuit? Where's the " Faithful" who need not see?
This site is filled with Christians under cover! Really have you not Christian sites?
The Bible is a book with pages...and upon those pages are words.There is the precious link you want so badly.
Some people have knowledge stored within their brains to where they need to have a freaking link to another website to prove what they say.
I understand there is a rule about posting information in the forums.They call it plagiarism if you copy/paste something from a site and not provide a link.Yet if a person takes the information they share from memory and do not provide a link..then people seem to have issues with that knowledge.
Remember this AGAIN...not everyone gets their information from the net.
I cannot help notice how quickly this turned into a damn opt sermon.
Many threads have to do e so, guess I will have to find a new site. It's as if Christians can't find enough people to push there febble crap on.. On Myspace.. They need to hide out and witness on a vampire site. Snork! SNORK!?
Actually Dabbler if you are referring to me.Im not religious..and your remarks is why religion talk is forbidden.I just think it is wrong for someone to demand sources for someones remarks to the topic.Being disrespectful to ones religion and or beliefs is shallow and immature.
The thread topic is about ones belief in mythical characters and if they actually existed or not.X was explaining that the people in the bible did exist,mainly because he believes what the bible says and happens to be religious.
He professes to have sources! So he cannot produce them! Because they do not exist! Do I care about peoples precious beliefs No! They disregard my disbelief!
I have viewed these posts and they make for some ideal topics and debate.
Yet my personal take is that many of these myths, were infact individuals that may have existed, yet the terms and accomplishments were hipped for the tales to add excitement to the story. Remember some of these myths were based on actual accounts of the time and yet through the ages have developed super abilities and more heroism to add to the characters of old.
Proven or debated, is a term us humans use to accept or ponder the notions, yet clues and and historical facts can also be changed to add or disgret the topic of the individual. It is what we wish to interpet the clues is up to us.
we see this even today, some of these individuals when our time has come, the fables or myths seem to grow with every time the story is to be told.
I believe he has nothing to present.. How about that, by the threads reasoning it is so.
Proven, why is it me that always has to prove the existance of myths or lore.
History channel has come out with some many new interesting programs on myths and the unknown, see it every day. Yet because it today cannot be proven, than all these therios are bed time stories to scare the kids.
I do believe these individuals, well a few did exist, yet the myth of their accomplishments may have been exggareated to inhance the person.
Many unknown factors come into play, for the written scientific reasons were not in fact capable at the times to record these. But modern science debates them for the themselves can not justify the proven integraty of these people.
ps. We are not asking for Evidence ( Christians have consistsnly fail to produce their own) we simple request documentation to support the assertion that " many academics have researched the existence of Jesus, and Moses.
A good program was on last night, here the basis of what was presented
The Exodus Decoded
http://www.history.com/shows.do?episodeId=180012&action=detail
whether it is a myth or yet clues left from the past, looked over.
All I am saying is that many of these myths hold a small trace of fiction within them.
Thats called Historical embedding. The Catholics used to Have " Artifacts" they toured with claiming that the artifacts where " evidence" to their faith.. then people( including believers) started suggesting the artifacts be tested.. How quickly they evaded all request. Remember history was written by the editors with agendas.
Dabb - With every chance you get you always manage to put your foot where your mouth is, regardless of topic. If anyone must have an internet link for anything to make it "truth" then they have serious issues.
It's not that I can't provide links it's that it isn't necessary for intelligent individuals. Now after this I AM NOT going respond to anything in this thread because the topic IS NOT "prove Jesus was real" or anything like that.
First:
"In his speech at the annual conference
of the National Advertisers Association, Eric Schmidt, Google CEO, said that, from the data recorded by the search engine, it seems that, at this specific moment, the Internet is made up of 5 million terabytes.
Even Google, which is considered currently the best search engine ever, has succeeded to index only 170 terabytes up until now, Schmidt said.
Google has been indexing information for 7 years, and if you want to have an idea on how fast this process is, it seems that, in order to index the 5 million terabytes of data, the search engine would need 300 years. And this would be valid only if nobody posted new content on the Internet..."
http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-Big-Is-the-Internet-10177.shtml
According to Douglas Coupland there is so much information that it could not be all stored in the minds of every human on Earth. If thats the case then take the following info into consideration:
"The human brain contains about 50 billion to 200 billion neurons (nobody knows how many for sure), each of which interfaces with 1,000
to 100,000 other neurons through 100 trillion (10 14) to 10 quadrillion (10 16) synaptic junctions. Each synapse possesses a variable firing threshold which is reduced as the neuron is repeatedly activated. If we assume that the firing threshold at each synapse can assume 256 distinguishable levels, and if we suppose that there are 20,000 shared synapses per neuron (10,000 per neuron), then the total information storage capacity of the synapses in the cortex would be of the order of 500 to 1,000 terabytes. (Of course, if the brain's storage of information takes place at a molecular level, then I would be afraid to hazard a guess regarding how many bytes can be stored in the brain. One estimate has placed it at about 3.6 X 10 19 bytes.)" - Random bit of info that can be found by doing a few Google searches.
The total memory of all humans alive today is around 1,200 petabytes (conservative estimate).
The total possible computer memory today is only around 750,000 terabytes.
http://www.lesk.com/mlesk/ksg97/ksg.html
http://www.merkle.com/humanMemory.html
All this means is that the Internet isn't the end all be all of information. Relying on the net or links for knowledge is like going to any square metre of Earth, looking at whats there and then determining the make up of the entire planet. According to my memory of an article I read (which may or may not be online) the net only holds around 1% of all human knowledge.
Next, here are a series of searches for you to do, links, books etc. I'm not going to spell everything out because most of this is for the sole benefit of a single person and I'm not going to spend any more time on it than I must. Although it may provide a lot of interesting reads for many people on here.
1) The Hyksos Expulsion
2) The Ahmose stele
3) Ahmose I
4) Serabit el-Khadim turquoise mine
5) Grave Circle A in Mycenae depict the parting of the Sea of Reeds
6) Tempest & Exodus, a book by Ralph Ellis
7) Act of God written by British historian Graham Phillips
8) Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, wrote: “The name [Christian] is derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius.”
9) Suetonius and Pliny the Younger refer to Christ
10) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology_(excavations_and_artifacts)
11) "With few exceptions (such as Robert M. Price), virtually all scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion" -Wiki
Other sources of info:
THE NEW ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA states: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus "(1976), MACROPÆDIA, VOL. 10, P. 145.
Altogether classical MSS (manuscripts). are but a handful compared with Biblical. No ancient book is so well attested as the Bible.”—The Bible From the Beginning (New York, 1929), P. Marion Simms, pp. 74, 76.
The Jewish Antiquities, Josephus, Book XX, Sec. 200
The Complete Works of Tactus (New York, 1942) "The Annals" Book 15, Part 44
The "Bible" was created some 400 years after Christ's 'resurrection' the manuscripts that make it up however have never been seriously questioned by the intellectual community at large and were written before, during and or soon after Christ. The only real "question" is that of divinity, miracles etc not persons, places, event realities and so forth.
I am not just some random internet personality who goes around talking out of my bum. I have graduated through out the years with 3 degrees and many other diplomas, certifications and have a resume with no less than 15 admin. positions. I know what I am talking about and have no problem discussing, debating or proving anything when done in a respectful manor. I do have a problem with being told that unless I have a link then what I say is false or the like.
It's not my job to hold anyone by the hand and educate them. All I have to do is say something. If it's an opinion then I say it is and you can take it or leave it, if it's a fact then I'll say it is... and you can take it or leave it. For goodness sake this is VR, a place for discussion and civil disputes not a place for an online university of (insert topic here) or a place for long lasting theological conversations.
Thank you for your time everyone and I hope I at least contributed to the thread in some positive way.
I agree with ~X~and ~DW~ this is a subject to discuss about everyone’s ideas within the healthy approach of the discussion, once again to ask for evidence and documentation to sustain everyone’s claim or reasoning does not need to be applied in this conversation. The subject is about each and everyone views on the topic, not to prove their opinions with factible documentation, everyone can express what they believe/think about it without recurring for link, as for the "Christian undercover" comment I must say it’s way out of line and deeply unnecessary just for the fact that anyone can believe in Jesus and doesn’t really have to subscribe to any religion, it just takes to look around, read a little of history and different texts of different historians throughout time and study, even if we were “Christian undercover” no one here is trying to make you believe in it or to subscribe in it, it is only an opinion, we are all just pointing our ideals and views about the topic, if you can’t handle that ~Dab~ perhaps you should find your website for whatever is that you want to discuss in terms of your beliefs, If no one here can address to the topic or others view with respect perhaps they should've never replied to the subject in the first place, because this is not the place to question anyone’s reasoning only to discuss the topic with a healthy approach and exchange of ideas, not to deal with absolutes.
Then in context of the thread Jesus was just a man. A man that a myth was propelled by.
~Dabbler~, not to offend you or anything, but...
Most of the context within this thread that you have posted seems to borderline bashing certain areas within an individuals "faith" system, on the line IE religious conotations.
I am far from religious by any means, I am a philosopher by thought. But this thread is a debate on whether certain individuals were real or not, like everyone else before me has stated. Though you seem completely adiment on letting the world know that one individual was not a "god" but just a man. Do you have a grudge against that individual, or a grudge against those of whom do not show the almighty "proof" of their convictions? Just a question.
Most myths are based on truth. This we know. Whether from ear to ear, story teller to story teller, book to book, past to present...Of course the stories about the myths and legends are going to get misconstrude over time. This is common and normal. But it does not mean that most or all of the story was fabricated to serve the better individual.
No links need to be provided, this I agree with. Since there is complete and nessessary proof from history books, as well as the scholarly mouth, those of whom have been researching for years, historians with credibility. Of course, not everyone is a be all end all of information, but they are a damned good start.
The point is, that no matter how deep we may debate whether a certain individual was real or not from the past, but that we are remembering great achievements from the heroes and villians of the past and keeping their stories alive, no matter how misconstrude any story teller places the events. The stories are for us, our children and our childrens children for memories of history. If we fail to achieve memories from our worlds history, then where would that put us and make us?
Think on it.
Thats why I posted my final post, a middle ground. It is a leverage point Christians use, a fallacy of logic.. " Well if Jesus historically existed.. " they reason."Then his claim, or alledged claim was as well. It I'd just another myth. I am keeping with the thread .
This is what I meant when I said some myths may not be true as literal figures in the narration, but holds a universal truth embedded within it. For example this Venezuelan tribe of Yanomamos and their Origin of fire myth.
Long, long ago, Iwarame, the caiman, was a person like all the other animals. All the animals could speak.
There were Sanema-Yanomami Indians as well back then but the people ate their food raw because they did not have the secret of fire.
Iwarame, the caiman, was the only one who had fire. Iwarame, who was also known as Iwa, spent the whole day in the water hunting but he prepared his food in the cave where he slept.
All the other animals knew that Iwarame had fire. They also knew that everything he ate was roasted and when he roasted his food it smelled fantastic.
The other animals thought that Iwarame was the the most powerful of all the animals because he ate his food cooked.
When Iwarame opened his mouth you could see the fire, so the Sanema Indians and many of the animals brought meat to place in front of Iwarame's cave so that when he opened his mouth it would be cooked.
Usually the Indians and the animals could only take away a little of this food as Iwarame would eat a large part of the food that they placed outside his cave and then he would sleep.
When he was asleep he would close his mouth and nobody could see the fire.
When he awoke he would go hunting and would bring back different prey, animals and fish. He would bring it back home and when he wanted to eat it he would open his mouth and that would set light to the wood and over the fire he would roast everything he ate, meat or fish, but only at night and then he would close his mouth so nobody could steal the fire.
One day a young Sanema hunter, who was out hunting with his father, got lost in the jungle and arrived, by chance, at Iwarame's cave. Iwarame was asleep.
As soon as the boy realised he was in the home of the "owner of fire" he was really scared. He looked all over for some cooked food or a burning log but he couldn't find anything except a burnt leaf, which, shaking with fear he took with him as he left the cave.
In the jungle he found his father and he showed him the burnt leaf.
- Father, he said, I found this burnt leaf.
- Where did you find it?
- In the house of Iwarame, the caiman
- Did you find fire?
- No, nor any roast meat. He keeps the fire inside his mouth.
His father thought long and hard about it: How are we going to steal the fire from Iwarame?
His father continued to think of a way to steal the fire from that terrible caiman and one day he organized a big party for all the Sanema and all the animals.
It was going to be a fun party with eating and drinking and it had to be immediately after sunset. Iwarame was invited and he left his house to come to the party.
All the Indians and all the animals had been told they had to make jokes, do tricks and anything else that would make them laugh.
So, they were all falling about laughing. All except Iwarame. He didn't laugh. He kept his big mouth tightly shut.
All the animals showed off their skills, especially the birds, who did swoops and turns in the air.
Jashimo, the purple gallinule (Porphyrio martinica) danced around and jumped from side to side, lifting its tail and shooting out streams of excrement as it cried: Plo, plo, plo.
All the guests fell on the floor laughing and some held their bellies they were laughing so much.
But Iwarame did not even smile. And he did not open his mouth.
Then Hiima, the dog, dancing and doing turns, did a massive shit and threw it at the other animals who were dancing and they all laughed again.
But Iwarame was as serious as before.
Finally, Jiomonikoshwan, the clever green-tailed jacamar, its belly as red as fire, began a very exotic dance and lifted its tail and showed its arse to all the other dancers. When it passed in front of Iwa, it lifted its tail, stuck its arse in his face and then sent a fine stream of shit into his face. This did make Iwa laugh and he let out a thunderous chuckle: ha, ha ha...
The fire then started to leap out of his mouth in bursts of flame, making a "flum, flum" sound.
Immediately, Maipomue, who is a hummingbird with a very long double tail. flew quickly and shot into Iwa's mouth like a bolt of lightning, grabbed the ball of fire in his beak and then flew over the heads of the guests, taking the ball of fire to the heart of the Puloi tree.
Iwa's wife, called Blajeyoma, ran over to the Puloi tree and urinated on the roots of the tree to put out the flame but as it was in the heart of the tree she couldn't.
When the fire came out of the caiman's jaws his tongue shrank and now it's small.
Since then, Iwa the caiman, ashamed by his defeat has left his cave and gone to live in the water. That's where he lives now, sharing his territory with Lalakilpara, the great water snake, who is the true master of the water.
From that time on, the Sanema and the Yanomami go to find fire in the heart of the sacred tree, Puloi, because that is where Maipomue left it.
Hmm the spanish version explains it better but here you can see how the fire changed the life of this paleolithic subculture that still lives in the jungles of Venezuela and Brazil and pass this along of few other myths and stories from generation to generation. The story doesn't talk about actual caiman that had the fire inside his mouth and we dont need to take this so literal but you can learn how it have helped cooked their food, bring protection in the night from other creatures, illumination, warmth, etc..So now they still use that tree "Puloi" or the surface of it to start fire, from many generations because there was where the bird left the flame.
There is some things not mentioned in this version that is not explained when traducted but there was a "she frog elder" that warn all the animals that wanted to steal the fire from Iwarame and told them about the danger of fire and how it is good for many things but it also can bring destruction and that is not reliable it should be kept in the owners mouth, therefore she never ate her food cooked, when the other animals managed to steal the fire from Iwarame it said that they went out of control and started sharing the fire to everyone giving fire to every tree and village they could find since the caiman was to selfish and never shared the fire the bird started spreading the fire from branch to branch and made a forest fire and destroyed many habitats, and thats when the frog told them that fire doesn't only bring good but also bad things.
If anyone wants the spanish version just ask ill send it.
There are many interesting native myths, here are some interesting ones.
-The Popol-Vuh
-Domo & Lituche
-Hopi myth of creation
-Labranza de kokou Guarao myth
-The Giant cosmic egg myth
-Leyend of the origins of the Fang Nations
-Yanomamis myth: Origin of eating the dead
Other Sumerians, Egyptian, and Greek/Roman mythologies as well a Hebrew myths of creation adopted by Christians later on are easier to find, due to their popularity.
Thanks Rav. That was almost an" Aristacrat" Joke. Plo plo.. Such skilled story telling from tribes.
I still stand on truth within the myth falicy. Truth embedded and popularized by acts that they could have not done, But the individual still may have been known.
While the internet is great, I prefer books for resources on history...may I suggest checking out two magazines (and their back-issues): Biblical Archaeology and Archaeology. One can find a wealth of historical information on many of the 'mythological foks' mentioned in this thread.
I believe that most are based at least a little in truth. there are documents that show that some of these people did exist.
I would like to extend my thanks to those of you who contributed actual perspectives on the actual topic at hand.
The fact that these people were alledged to be alive so long ago allows for the possibility that the texts they are mentioned in might have some exaggerations. Take for instance, the Bible: Genesis was written by Moses, who was born approximately in 1526 BCE. The only way for him to have any knowledge about Adam and Eve, would be through the conveyance of oral history. Having a tale told that many times throughout that many generations allows for much distortion.
In Greek mythology, the earliest information available was written by Homer, who lived around 800 BCE. That places his lifetime 200-300 years after the Trojan War, which he wrote about in the Iliad. This, once again, means that he received his information through oral history.
Now, I'm not saying that ALL of the heroes of legend were falsifications. I do believe that some of these people existed, and that perhaps some of them did indeed have abilities that were extraordinary or that they lived through extraordinary circumstances.
If you need proof, look it up yourself, you lazy squid.
Man or myth was the title and then turned into a silliness about "Hidden christians" and "please pass the link"
Everyone who stayed on topic seems to agree that these people probably existed but their deeds were exagerated More than likely true and that was the point of the discussion was it not?
as for asking for links, oh please techno one, get a grip books have existed for hundreds of years they are not a myth try reading some.
most of us have read at least some books and rely on our memories to quote from them. doll thanx for ur input mate I know many of the books you probably read and about some of the scholarly references I am also familiar with.Including a Guy Named Josephus. could have been a Great debate but for the childish antics of some.
Thanks for the support nitewulf. It does suck when people just have to insert themselves into any thread, even if they have nothing to say that is all that pertinent.
What is wrong with requesting supporting documents, awww does you all want to be Esoterically Smug? Implying that you alone can comprehend the
worthless info.
Your all so reactive to simple routine things. Lease besides, insisting that requesting some links is rude. Carry on with your psuedo intellectual BS.
See here's the failure in your outward disbain for inquiry, how smuggly you profess , A historical figure to be something more than myth. You obviously
have something that convinced you, do to protect your smug display of " pertinant" esoteric knowledge you snivel about a request for a link.
Who pray tell is childishly dragging the matter out.
Am I the only person that requested supporting Documentstion? I note the lack of info present, yet all the leads for fellow believers, Yra I dispose Christians!
Read the first part of Xs post the I so "I eont debate this debate this .. "
" But people who say that Jesus, Moses never existed .. Show how little they know." Now you know nothing, youdont even know how you got the info.
Thats smug, then throw a fit when someone e calls you on it? Really come- on!
Wow. Three posts of assinine whininess in a row. That's gotta be a record even for you, dab.
BTW, everything I said is easy enough to look up if only you'd take the time.
You see I am giving you little tidbits of info so maybe you might learn something. Gain knowledge.
BTW I am not a christian.
Someone declared that others know nothing. That is implying esoteric knowledge. The presumtion that really is rather loaded with Egotism.
So to set this from boil to simmer, why not present a resource guide for those that are implied to be so " in the dark" regarding historical matters.
Many Academics!! ?
Back on the topic,
Man or myth, we have seen through countless stories and some investigating, many of the individuals that are present in myths, they did exist. yet the determination of the myth and the story become exegaerated through time.
Much like the game of whispering something in ones ear and by the end of the line the whisper has changed. yet some facts are still present.
Most folklore characters sprang up mainly because the people needed entertainment to get a break from boredom.Like Paul Bunyan,who was made up first by a writer,then later told around camp fires by actual lumberjacks.They added natural events in the country to the story to explain how things came to be.
The Genesis could be actual myth based on auditory passed from generation to generation, and it could easily be misinterpretation and manipulation by the beholders point of view in the pentateuchal work of Moses (writer of the first 5 books “Torah”), some say that Christianism in early roots and books adopted by Hebrew source might have (not to be absolute) flagged everything that was contradictory to the belief itself as demonized, heretic, or devil work behind it; So the "snake" in Adam and Eve's story could actually be the snake God from the Sumerians(Enlil, The god of the air and storms .He was usually portrayed in human form but also appears as a snake to the humans eyes), since they both hold similitude in the creation story some say all the Hebrew origins story might have taken the Sumerian creation myth and demonized their God, so they present the snake as the devil passed from Hebrews to branches like Christians and Muslim adoption of the 5 book for their explanation of the origin of man on God’s land . Maybe this as well happened later on when the Christiansism passed a mouth to ear retelling to villages and the ‘Zoroastrianism’ emerged, which hold similitude in many of the things Christianism retale as well. Maybe it all was truth the only thing that change the beliefs is each print o change from group to group. C’mon everybody has played the game passed the message from ear to ear and the ending is not quite the same as the beginning, if I say something you don’t like, you change the part you don’t like and edit the message and passed it along, it’s all psychology..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentateuchal_criticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentateuch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_mythology
With Trade Routes overlapping so did Oral Tradition.
Promotion hit a high when Oral Tradtions went to "press". How many Myths
faded into Amalgamations, Fakirs traveling as troupes left impression upon superstitious people. Then add varied interpritations of Text, even within the ranks of those who invest belief in myths. Is it historically viable, records ( it's can be reasoned) came into being with writing.
Darkwolfman, I like that post and it holds alot of value in terms of myths evolving..
For we have seen that in old times not all things could be explained and yet they gave reasons to what was happening. so some myths developed out of scared or irrational thoughts of demons or plagues. But i still believe some myths derived from actual charecters in our past. And exaggerated the lores to follow the characters of the myth.
Cadre I have always liked Tall Tales and Folklore...wondering where the original story began.I'm sure that every myth,legend,and folklore story started in some fact.It's true that some were just mere stories made up from nothing,but at the same time,where did the idea come from.Someones uncle who was strong or brave..someones father who could lift a tree.Who knows but the stories fascinate and awe young people and they stand the test of time.
Yeah ~Dab~ but we are talking about actual people delivering the messages, not myths that left a whole lot of books and prints in various societies. Once again, the possible questionable thing here is the divinity and miracles of these stories of superstition, but the people is well recorded in many manuscripts and scrolls and voice and even physically descriptions. How can you fabricate Moses stories without having Moses? Then why is there religions that fight for those 5 books rights? Why we have many different beliefs in base of those 5 books? why can’t they just made their own book and with that their own God excluding those origins? There must have antecessors and retellers of the books in order for other circumstances to occur throughout written history, If you think the bible and other sacred text are all fallacy, then it must be a very very very very very very very very well made fabricated lie, that it must’ve involved societies, opposing deities, times, circumstances and even possible natural accuantaince(“comets”, “earthquakes”, “floods”,” destructions of cities”, “volcanoes”) in its conspiracy.
Thanks Darkwolfman for the post, I see what you were relating too. I concurr with what you say, but with the wide balance of no topic like a specific person to say, than all acounts would relate to both sides, yarns spun and those who hold some truth within the myth.
This would hold true for stories spun to scare kids in doing good or witches in an old run down house. Yet some facts have been related to myths not all and I see the points to ponder which you have given.
A few remarks on all that has gone on here, if I may.
First off, the forum topic has as its foundational question whether or not the "mighty men of old" (yes... a Genesis 6:4 quote, yet circumscribes well any and all legendary heroes) actually existed in the flesh or whether they did not. While I tend to believe that the majority of them did actually exist, though many of the heroics regarding them have been greatly exaggerated, yet if one expects others to take their opinion seriously, it certainly does help to have more in the way of evidence than just the religious text so stating.
This ought not at all to be offensive to anyone's religion as such a statement is simple logic regardless of one's religious views or lack thereof. Whether we are talking Scientology's claims to alien spirits infiltrating our bodies or Mormonism's claims that the Native Americans are, in fact, descended from the Israelites, nevertheless... if such claims are to be taken seriously by others outside of those Faiths (or, frankly, by those within such religions as well), it would seem quite logical and understandable that there be SOME corroborative evidences for such beliefs outside the religious texts so claiming.
So also, logically, when discussing such more commonly held beliefs as those involving Moses, David, Jesus, etc.
Okay... that said, while I do not know of any definitive corroborative evidence regarding Moses or David, yet where the historical Jesus is concerned, there is a smattering of such written evidences and contemporary with the times in which Jesus lived that lead me to believe he was an actual historical person. For one thing, the famous and non-Christian Jewish historian, Josephus, wrote a brief commentary on Jesus and that he had been crucified. Additionally, and more tellingly, there are a few communiques that have been found written by highly placed Roman political and military leaders who also stated that a man named "Jesus" had been killed or crucified in Judea (one such letter specifically named Pontius Pilate as the man who had carried out the execution). This can be found in the wonderful book "The Christians as the Romans Saw Them." (And were I in town, I would be happy to provide the page numbers and the actual quotes therefrom so stating.)
In summary... to claim religious offense anytime one's religious texts are not considered sufficient evidence to logically prove a point is not logical. Likewise, to prematurely conclude that a religious or other quasi-historical person never existed simply because the name of such appears in a religoius text with which one disagrees or does not consider always truthful is likewise logically short-sighted.
"Of course, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller
- Upir'
Here is a list of some Tall Tale Characters,who may or may not have been real...some are though.
* Aylett C. (Strap) Buckner - A Native American-fighter of colonial Texas*
* Davy Crockett - A pioneer and U.S. Congressman from Tennessee who later died at the Battle of the Alamo.*
* Calamity Jane - A tough Wild West woman*
* Febold Feboldson - A Nebraska farmer who could fight a drought
* Joe Magarac - A Pittsburgh steelworker made of steel
* Paul Bunyan - huge lumberjack who eats 50 pancakes in one minute
* Pecos Bill - legendary cowboy who "tamed the wild west"
* John Henry - A mighty steel-driving African American
* Johnny Appleseed - A friendly folk-hero who traveled the West planting apple trees because he felt his guardian angel told him to.*
* Mike Fink - The toughest boatman of the Mississippi and a rival of Davy Crockett. Also known as the King of the Mississippi River Keelboatmen
* Molly Pitcher - A heroine of the American Revolutionary War*
* Alfred Bulltop Stormalong - An immense sailor whose ship was so big it scraped the moon
* Tony Beaver - A West Virginia lumberjack and cousin of Paul Bunyan
and yes Dabbler there is a link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_tale
The song" Stagga' Lee" is traditionally varied everytime it is sung, at the base though is that " An insult/ slight starts a fight that escalated into a murder.. "Stagger Lee.. Was a Bad bad mannnn.."
Much like artist singing songs of other artist they improvise them to make the song theirs.
Myth handed down through the ages have changed due to who is telling to who. But certain aspects of the story remain solid in the basis of falicy. thus truth within the realms of myth.
Exactly Cadrewolf. Thank you.
As I stated, much like urban legends, which are not much different than myths themselves, stories of mythical figures in human history often have a kernel of truth within the story.
I find the origin stories of myths, legends, urban and otherwise, to be very interesting - especially when one discovers evidence indicating some truth to it.
But do we throw out the human Story Craft. I find that Santa is a precedent case study.
An aspect I too like Vespers, for we every day discover the unknown truths overlooked within the realms of myth and legends; to give some insight that there lies truth within that spectrum.
Saint Nicolas or Saint Nicolai was at one time a real person,or is some areas Chris Kringle.He handed out gifts at night to the less fortunate children in and around his village.
No one has thrown out the "story craft", Dabbler. In fact, if anything, this discussion points it out without having to literally say so (a given, in otherwords) - at least to a person who thinks.
The myths that DO have historical basis are examples of this, if you think about it.
Even just a little.
Obviously, "story craft" plays a large role in the exaggerations, add-ons, etc.. that make a myth/story/song unique to the individual relaying it.
Just like the song, "Stagger lee". The versions of that song vary from Nick Cave to Ma Rainy - indicating "story craft".
I hate to point out the obvious, but some folks need it apparently.
Right on, DW.
Santa Claus was indeed a real individual - and this individual eventually gained mythological status due to his kindness, generousity, and giving spirit.
Of course, throughout the centuries of retelling his tale, much was added on, changed, etc.. but Nicholas, who was born during the third century, did exist.
As a Tennessean I can vouch for the fact Davey Crockett existed :) However, some of the stories relating to him may be fabricated at most and exaggerated at least. That's a perfect example of what we're talking about here. A person who did many great things during a time when word of mouth and local stories were still the prevailing method of spreading information would naturally end up sounding different from reality (to varying degrees). That isn't to say though that just because a story was handed down via oral tradition or just because it happened some time in the distant past (be it 150 years or 1,500) it didn't happen or it was fabricated.
The story of Julius Caesar invading the Gauls by building a bridge (between 500 and 1300 ft) across the Rhine River out of nothing but wood and rope, using mostly human labor and it only taking 10 days, a feat we would have great trouble duplicating with all of our technology, sounds fantastical and yet it is a well known fact.
Also the story of Alexander the Great, he conquered the known world before the age of 35 and built an empire nearly 6 million sq. km (the 19th largest in history) when it took the British Empire around 500 years to reach it's maximum size (1922, 33.6 million sq. km). Again it sounds impossible but it happened.
This thread has been closed not because the question asked was not appropriate for our forums but because certain individuals have deemed themselves above VR rules by toeing the line for far too long.
Simply put no tenants of ANY religion or faith are to be ridiculed. This includes science and any theory that is not defined as fact, which by definition is ALL theory. This type of “oooh but I’m in the rules still” will no longer be tolerated. Use a dictionary and spell check and take time to make certain your tenor in the forums is appropriate or you too will be suspended. Enough said.
Edit: This thread has been re-opened per request. Maintain respect for other’s beliefs and a great conversation can be had by all.~S
Myths play out no matter the years look at the myths that still come to be even with written language and photography so abundant Know.
Legends that we still search for here. D.B Cooper localy, bigfoot, nessy. still abundant and something still driving us to find the evedience of their exixstance.
D.b copper was true, yet some of the legends we ponder on still being alive.
Humans always seem to search for the unknown,
The only problem I have when one speaks of Jesus in a thread is that it was a somewhat common name in that time and there wasn't just one. In that particular culture when one became a Rabbi they took on another name and would never be addressed by their given name. I am 62 and remember reading all sorts of things and the Hiram Key is one and its sequel. I think it is an excellent book. I cannot give you a link but it's true how urban legend or myth begins. It is usually through folklore handed down and then written. They tell in the Hiram Key (reference) who it was that killed Goliath. It wasn't David but a soldier in the armies. It was the penchant to aggrandize those who were the Kings with tales of valor...big deal. Ancient history has folks on one side saying one thing and another on the opposite end. Most old writings in one way or another will deal with religion because the two are tied together. Their histories are included with their beliefs and cultural standards. Usually in more than one book...that came later. Everything I have read points to most of these people having been real people who after long periods of time had tales attached to them. As for fairytales I have written about those and they were written mostly by women or made up for parties with adults. People like the Grimms and others collected them and toned them down for children. Often they were a disguise for political intrigue going on so they could talk about it without censure. Some were just entertainment for children made up by Mothers but the majority were of the other type and few were about fairies. Many times they were talking about real people but in a fantastical way.
http://www.freewebs.com/fantasyandfable/thedifference.htm
There are other articles in this general area here.
Mollidew- You're right, Jesus was a fairly common name at the time (era 500BC-100AD), however according to a document I read (sorry no links that I know of lol) dealing with James, his brother, said that at the time of his birth there were only around 1 "Jesus" per 600,000 Jews which brings it to maybe 3.
One sure way to denote which Jesus we're talking about would be to refer to him as Jesus the Christ or Christ Jesus but that could cause some issues especially for those who only skim threads..it could be to 'religious' in other words. Over all though I think when people talk or hear about 'Jesus' they know who is being talked about. Besides I don't know of any other widely known Jesus' do you?
True...but we also need to remember that the name 'Jesus' is the Greek form of the Jewish name 'Jude,' and its variant, Judas, Joshua, etc. There were a lot of Judes and Joshuas around back then.
And you're right - it would be appropriate to differentiate which Jesus/Judas/Joshua one was referring to.
DJJarak,
Thanks for your input. I can agree to that to an extent. Some of what we may refer to as myth nowadays could very well be just a way of explaining away an extraordinary person with abnormal abilities or an extraordinary event that is beyond our understanding.
Also a possibility, what if the event and/or person was real and that the event or person, at the time, seemed extraordinary by the time's current understanding of science and nature. And that today the extraordinary event or person from the past could have been easily explained by the science of today.
So yesterday's myth could be thought of as scientific fact of today.
For instance, (No offense intended in waht I am about to say) Moses parting the Red Sea. Now they believe that that biblical event coincided with the eruption of Mt Vesuvius. Scientist now theorize that the massive shockwave from that event could have temporarily parted the Red Sea so far away. They've also theorized that the same event might have sunk Atlantis as well, if it did indeed exist. I believe that from whatever source I heard that, that they also atribute a few other extraordinary events (ie the Ten Plagues of Egypt) and I think a few others to that very same eruption.
Well posted thought, and we see that many original myths are looked at closley now. forming some conclusion that they could have happened. The myth you are talking about was on history channel the other day."Decoding the Exodus". was a great show.
We know many myths hold truth within them, yet our logical thoughts was this statement in truth would be a myth. yet we descover every day events , people and origins that come to show myths hold some ounce of truth.
Actually it wasn't the Red Sea at all, but the Sea of Reeds, a shallow sea which still exists to this day. It was a simple translation mistake.
As for the whole "myth" is a just a word type thing, that really doesn't hold up and is rather silly. It doesn't matter what word is assigned to what meaning the understanding of it, it's reality or not, still stands.
I was concidering the popularity of Urban Legends and note that these modern myths do not have names atributed to them. I also think that it is very likely that myths that have no names attributed to them may very easily have names of a popular cultural archetype imposed apon them at a later date.
Obviously there are those who wish to associate a real person with a specific archetype and would attribute specific myths to a personage of current popularity or desired popularity.
Thus, I think that it is HEALTHY, to ignore names attributed to these myths and to accept the implied parable without animosity.
*However, I do believe that when religeous texts support each other with a specific name that the Legend can generally be ascribed to that specific person [as I believe that Prophets had inate devine knowledge, and that, even though mistranscription is probable, if they corroberate each other, it is likely to be true.]
I think soe of the myths from the past have been blown up to make them seen moe adventureous but i do think the basic events happned.. i do believe there have been some amazing people doing great things in the past.
I wouldn't want to put links but some legends and tales do relate to real people and then as they are told over and over they change and become in some cases very unbelievable. Some scholars believe many of the gods of old were real people. As for Christian views I agree if he was a Rabbi he would have changed his name...isn't Immanuel suppose to be the name? I have read the Bible more than enough times as well as apocrapha and pseudapocrapha. I have ministerial credits but I don't pick or choose one belief system. I leave that to others. It means nothing to be able to memorize things if there is nothing more than belief to back it up. A belief is just that and should stay personal. No one should be refuted here because of religious beliefs...just move on to another area of discussion. I know it's your opinion but it looked to me as an attack from both directions. Religion should not be brought into a discussion. I mean why do people always pick Jesus anyway...why not Allah or a whole long list of other major gods of religions. It's not appropriate from believers or disbelievers.
Here is an example of a folkloric legend many probably have heard and he indeed was a real person:
Johnny Appleseed, born John Chapman (September 26, 1774 – February 18, 1845), was an American pioneer nurseryman who introduced apple trees to large parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. He became an American legend while still alive, largely because of his kind and generous ways, his great leadership in conservation, and the symbolic importance of apples.
He was also a missionary for the Church of the New Jerusalem, or Swedenborgian Church, so named because it teaches the theological doctrines contained in the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Appleseed
How do people know that those links are the real thing and not a creation of someone mind? Another way to control the mind of the reader? That is the reason I live for the present, because the past has been change so many times, that who knows what really happen or what really is a story telling.
Superstition always torns the reality of myths. If David Blaine Achieves kundalini awaking state in future, he will become myth in future... but no one will know that th hard work he done and exercises techniques he adopted is what and how hard he been working towards them but they will say he the person in myth only. He is aheading towards kundalini awaking state slowly.
The Stories of are past are refleted to us as learning devices, things that are thier to teach us right from wrong, good from evil, vitues that the hero's use to defete the villen. Most do have aspects of the gods due to mans lack of knowledge, a plage consumes anothier army well the gods must be on thier side thay killed are enemys. But reality being it was more due to bad water or lack of cleaning. as for extodiary acts were a man kills many othiers in battle he is told as a hero but he becuse bigger then life like in brave hart where willaim wallice is 7 feet tall and kills men by the hundreds, if not chalanged it goes on to the point where he becuse a god . so yes after a while a man does becume a myth.
I believe many of the 'mythical men' were real historical figures. It's just that their stories or triumphs have been fabricated over time, that makes them seem so 'unbelievably unreal'.
True in some account, yet in 100 years if people look back and find our own legacy if there is one, will we be made up or just called false on speculation that the historian was not there?
accounts of history and figures of importance seem to add the persona of greatness in which the person adds too to make them look greater than the average person.
I have top agree with DarkWolfman.
There are men and women=legends that have proof to back up their existance.
Even those from ancients centuries back have proof to back up their existance.
Those that don't, one simply must decide for themselves whether or not they ever existed. Some are Myths in my book, just as ancient dwellings like Atlantis.
RomaMarieNightwing,
Thank you for your input, and I agree with you.
I do have to say though that within the field of forbidden archeology there does exist a lot of evidence that perhaps something atlantean could possibly have existed. There's the underwater roadway off the Canary Islands, just to start naming something.
Then if you consider the length of time life has existed on our planet, and factor in the reproductive force of mankind, and then consider the way nature naturally sets up circumstances for populations (animal, plant, and human) to control their numbers, then is it not possible that something like Atlantis might have existed.
The Mayan long count calendar measures the beginnings and the ends of a period (as in a way of life), and on Dec 21, 2012 we are supposed to transit to the next cycle. What if the destruction of Atlantis was just another of those transits. Enough time occurs from one point to another that something underwater like Atlantis could very well be covered over so extensively that we might never be able to find it.