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On 31 October 2004, resorting to a feudal law that was abolished the following month, the town of Prestonpans in Scotland granted official pardon to 81 persons – and their cats – executed for practicing witchery in the 16th and 17th centuries.

According to the official spokesman for the Barons of Prestoungrange and Dolphinstoun, “most of them had been condemned without any concrete proof – based only on the witnesses of the accusation, who declared that they felt the presence of evil spirits.”

What were the real reasons witches were hunted down, tortured and put to death?

Please cite sources.


Please ALWAYS post the link from which you get your information when using copyright material.

~CTD

The following came from here

About 3 years ago a woman was put to sea for Obeah (magic) in the Cayman Islands; aparantly her boat washed up to shore empty a couple weeks later. I do not know the details... but I do know that using magic is a crime if used to harm another in most of the BWI.

They pardoned dead witches and their familiars? Too little, too late if you ask me.

The Salem Witch were the same thing Hundreds of men and women were put to death or tortured until confession and their ultimate deaths. All the allegations stemmed from 3 girl and a black slave named Titcuba.
The girls started misbehaving and playing pranks on members of the community. One of the pranks caused injury to the church pastor and they were seen. When they were questioned they blamed on of the girls slave of bewitching them. When the slave was interrogated by the magistrates she denied the accusation and the girls went into fit placing the blame on the slave.

After that any time when someone wanted take another persons land or was owed money would use witchcraft as the excuse. Any and all problems were attributed to witches.

Sarah Goodall was a mid wife that was accused of witchcraft after a mother died in child birth and was ultimately convicted and burned. She was also excommunicated by the church and it took until 1987 to clear her name and have her remains re sanctified by the church so that she could be buried in her family plot in Danvers Mass. Her family spent hundreds of years vindicating her from guilt after review by the church proved that the individual that made the indictment was he himself executed for the same crime. It was proven that in his state after his wife's death that it was revenge that he wanted.

The REAL reason why "witches" were tortured and slaughtered? Is this truly what is desired?

Frankly, I doubt the actual truth will be much appreciated here as it differs decidedly from the history taught in most modern texts. However, the primary source material cited below does made the true reason rather crystal clear.

Contemporary with the Eastern European slaughters of "vampires" is the European slaughter of "witches." And in both cases, all such were slaughtered for the exact same reason... and that reason had nothing to do with casting spells or warts on noses... or, in the case of "vampires," drinking blood. Nor was the timing and the parallel motivations for such genocidal slaughters somehow coincidental.

Throughout the "Burning Times" and despite the pretexts of targeting primarily females as "witches" for other reasons (e.g., for being mid-wives, free thinkers, etc.), yet according to the Catholic Church's own officially published and sanctioned manual for hunting and murdering witches, a book called the Malleus Maleficarum , (translation: "Witches' Hammer"), none of this is true.

For those not aware of exactly what the Malleus Maleficarum is, it was the officially sanctioned book commissioned, published in 1487 CE, and used for centuries thereafter by the Catholic Church, its commissioned Inquisitors, and all governmental magistrates throughout Christendom, to specifically identify, interrogate, torture, and then systematically murder ... witches.

And how did this official witches manual define witchcraft, and thus witches, themselves?

Read the given definition straight from the 15th Century source, itself:

"To conclude: All witchcraft comes from carnal lust, which is in women insatiable." (Malleus Maleficarum, Question VI; 1487 CE)

*Chuckles* And these days, some of us... Men and women both, can't seem to get enough of it. Therefore, please condemn the lot of us for our physical ailments... HA!

Well of course! After all, to the (supposedly) celibate priests enforcing and administrating the Inquisitions, almost any expression of sexuality was sinful. Thus, for those capable of near limitless "sinning"... what other punishment but death would suffice?


- Upir'

I do remember watching a documentary on the history channel years and years ago.

The fact was very few people who were tried and killed as a witch were actually practising the craft. Many were of different faiths, or different Christian faiths. Many were just men who wanted to get rid of wives or sisters for wealth.

There was one German town that had massacre every female in the town and when the realised there were no women left they realised their mistakes.

Sorry I can't cite my source, it is just memory recall on the burnings.

In Lima peru they just convicted a women for her pagan beliefs she and her children are on lock up awating execution.

GothPrincess -

Could you provide your source of this, please? As someone very familiar with Peruvian customs and culture, I find your statement that a Peruvian court would sentence a woman to death for "pagan beliefs" a bit questionable. Thank you in advance.


- Upir'

I follow the news avidly: paticularly the British News, though I also follow world events... and I heard nothing of this, whatsoever.

I haven't heard of the Peru issue. But way back when in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries if you did something unexplainable with herbs you were considered a witch/warlock or if your land was prosperous in time of devastation you were rumored to be using witchcraft. False allegations were going around started by jealous neighbors so they might be able to get the fertile land of the accused. Most of the time it worked due to the insane tests preformed to prove you weren't a witch. The tests were unsurvivable. What was the point of being toss into a lake while shackled and bound? It was a lose lose for the accused.

One leading theory suggests that the Salem Witch Trials resulted from poisoned rye bread. Ergot poisoning, i believe it is called, causes hallucinations, convulsions, strange sensations, all which were reported during the Witch Trial period. Here are some more in depth links:

http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/ergot.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_salem/clues.html

Well of course people back then had a very different way of thinking from what we do now. The church had a firm grip on society, and even here in Edinburgh (near Prestonpans) the head church was right next to the head prison where people were tortured.
Anyone who seemed a little unusual was thought to be working for the devil, and thusly tortured and burned. Witchcraft was seen as evil, but even those who did not practice anything were still punished for perhaps doing anything that was even vaguely out of the ordinary. If a woman was thought to be a witch, then so were her whole family, and thus they'd get burned too.
It is our modern way of thinking that stops us from burning witches now. These days it's trendy to call yourself a witch, but once it would have got you executed. There is no one real reason, there is a multitude of reasons, most of which were made up at the time.

But pfft, nice of them to pardon these people and their cats 400 years after their deaths.

Upir, I wish the multi-orgasmic answer was the root of the problem, but witch hunts date back to pre-Christian times. The Jews had them, and they married so not a case of priestly abstinence. The Romans had them, and they had orgies (although maybe not with their wives). This is brief. more at Wiki, link below:




The pre-Christian Twelve Tables of pagan Roman law has provisions against evil incantations and spells intended to damage cereal crops.

The Hebrew Bible condemns sorcery. Deuteronomy 18:11-12 calls it an "abomination" and Exodus 22:18 prescribes "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"[5], and tales like that of 1 Samuel 28, reporting how Saul "hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land"[6] suggesting that in practice, sorcery could at least lead to exile.

In later Jewish history, Rabbi Simeon ben Shetach - Pharisee scholar and Nasi of the Sanhedrin in the First Century B.C. - is reported to have on a single day sentenced to death eighty women in Ashkelon, who had been charged with witchcraft. Later, the women's relatives took revenge by bringing false witnesses against Simeon's son and causing him to be executed in turn.[citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

Although there were witch persecutions in antiquity, it's undeniable they picked up force with the advent of Christianity.

Interesting to note that the Protestants and the Catholics both accused each other of having the worse witch hunts.

This link is good:


http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/Ftrials/salem/witchhistory.html

Bloodmother -

You are quite correct that "witches" (defined as those who deal with and engage in incantations, spells, etc.) were persecuted in pre-Christian times, most specifically by the Israelites in Old Testament. And that's because that was what the definition of "witch" meant... then.

That's why prior to the 15th Century, very few women were being condemned as witches. However, that all changed after that because the Church's definition of "witchcraft" changed.

In the 15th Century, the definition of "witchcraft" (and thus, "witch") was officially changed by the Catholic Church in its brand-new manual on the subject: the Malleus Maleficarum (Witch's Hammer; 1487 CE).

This evil and malignantly misogynist official manual was the very publication that sparked the "Burning Times." Had it not been for the publication of the Malleus and its re-defining of the term "witchcraft" as it did... the "Burning Times" would never have occurred.


While the Malleus did include the old claims (spells, hexes, incantations and the like) as descriptive of witchcraft as found in the Bible (it obviously couldn't openly contradict such!), yet unlike anything the Bible or any other book ever claimed about witches, only the Malleus dared to state that the source of "all witchcraft" itself comes from "carnal lust, which is in women, insatiable."

This new definition and the horrors that such then unleashed upon the female populations of Europe was kept from the public by making the Malleus Maleficarum available and lawful only to the Church's own priests, inquisitors and magistrates (all males, of course). The general public was prohibited from reading it, much less owning a copy of it! Thus, the Malleus' new definition of "witchcraft" that indicted almost all women everywhere, was kept as a Church secret.

Thus, nothing was ever publicly revealed regarding this definition change that indicted almost all females as "witches." Thus, in the initial phases of indictment, the inquisitors and magistrates usually continued to indict women initially based primarily on the old defintions (for spells, hexes, incantations, etc.). However, shortly after each woman's arrest... the initial indictment was almost always upgraded to included specific ... sexual... activities of an "insatiable" nature. And it was specifically for these that the woman was condemned to death.

When the transcripts of the actual trials are examined, it is quickly revealed that the chief "activity" for which the vast majority of the women were ultimately condemned was for having supposedly participated in "Witches' Sabbaths." These orgiastic events were the sole creations of the inquisitors beginning only after the publication of the Malleus and were defined generally as late-night gatherings out in the woods for the primary purpose of engaging in sexual orgies and/or sex with the Devil.

In other words, exactly in accordance with the Malleus new definition and mandate, they were officially condemned as witches for possessing "insatiable" "carnal lust."

As ought to be obvious now that we can all read the very manual these inquisitors used to justify and carry out these slaughters, all of these orgiastic charges were obvious "code speak" language used by the magistrates and inquisitors to record for the Vatican the REAL reason for slaughtering their victims. They were fulfilling exactly the mandate of the Malleus and encoding the fulfillment of that mandate by recording that the women were slaughtered for having participated in "sexual orgies with the Devil" (i.e., possessing "insatiable" "carnal lust"), thus making it appear that the women's murder was their own fault and not the Vatican's for having targeted them for possessing that natural female capacity re-defined by the Malleus, alone, as the source of "all witchcraft."

In case it needs to be pointed out, history is replete with other examples of slaughters being covered up by similarly serving "code speak" euphemisms, Hitler's "final solution to the Jewish problem" being only one such.

If you still feel I am being too harsh or interpreting incorrectly, I can only invite any and all to do their own objective study by reading the Malleus and then reading the actual witch trial transcripts that followed its publication.


- Upir'

The reason that witches were tortured and killed back in those time, was because, the believer of some powerful church, mention no name, want every human to be part of "this" church and If you don't believe in their god, then, you must be following others god, who are not so "pure" as their god. And for that, they will kill you first.

With all mass hysteria and religious zealotry aside, I think the reasons for witch trials were mainly based on human hatred and greed; one can be accused of being a witch so others can:

-take ownership of your property (land. livestock, etc)
- take your mate/spuose; hell, maybe even the kids
-get rid of others who strongly disagree with you, ie religion and politics
-hatred of another's race/ethnicity

A few examples here. Nothing magical or diabolical!

I agree with you Isis. Religion became the vehicle for the persecution which is not to deny that there were zealots who really believed the witches had power.

The sexual fear and envy of women traverses most of the societies going back into antiquity and stems from the rise of paternalism which is directly linked to Property.

Wasn't a big deal when people were hunter gatherers. Women had the power of procreation then because everybody thought they had a superpower. Men loved the sex and they got plenty of it with all those orgasming women Upir refers to. Everybody was cumming because coupling was a gift. The sex was just sex. No one connected it with procreation.

Once the connection was made, animal husbandry was next, and farming, and building fences, and owning your women and controlling their parts.

Oh my - I totally forgot to mention the fear of women (and their perceived power of much of the natural world)! Thanks!

The witch trials in my opion were one of humans worst actions toward others. because of specualtion and fear murdering people and kids was so wrong. and now to pardon them. who is that going to help. someones blood line who was involved in it and now wants to sleep eaiser.

In my opinion they were killed because people were scared of them because they were practiioners of the old ways. In turn the purist Christians became frightened of them and therefore thought that they were a threat as a result. If the purists had known what the reality of the situation was instead believing in what they were taught (being brainwashed as a child) they would have seen that it was just a different religion.

Their will always be a "Good vs. Evil" theory behind these issues.
When seperation of Church and Government took place, unfortunately not in all realms of the world; the churches lost control of high ranking officials of leaders, such as Kings and Queens.
Persecution and prosicution of anyone for their "beliefs" is just wrong in Human Morals. What are they afraid of,...is the bigger question.

As bad as the killing of accused witches was, when compared to the purges in Germany, Russia, and China the numbers are comparitively small. Where millions of men, women, and children were murdered for political reasons by HItler, Stalin, and Mao, historians estimate the number of victims of witch hunting to be somewhere between 12,000 to 100,000 with around 40,000 being the number commonly accepted. That is still huge but it was spread over several centuries. Modern warfare can kill that many people in less than a year.
As to Salem, 25 people died in the the witch trials there. 1 in prison, 1 crushed to death, and the rest hanged. None were burned.
I am not playing apologist for those who persecuted others as witches, I am simply saying that mankind has found many ways to terrorize and murder those they either didn't understand or felt threatened by.

The classical period of witchhunts in Europe falls into the Early Modern period or about 1480 to 1700, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 40,000 to 100,000 executions.
But sorcery and witchcraft goes well beyond the middle ages, punishment is addressed in some of the earliest law and codes preserved. Both in ancient Egypt and in Babylonia it played a conspicuous part. The Code of Hammurabi (18th century BC short chronology) prescribes that

If a man has put a spell upon another man and it is not justified, he upon whom the spell is laid shall go to the holy river; into the holy river shall he plunge. If the holy river overcome him and he is drowned, the man who put the spell upon him shall take possession of his house. If the holy river declares him innocent and he remains unharmed the man who laid the spell shall be put to death. He that plunged into the river shall take possession of the house of him who laid the spell upon him.

The pre-Christian Twelve Tables of pagan Roman law has provisions against evil incantations and spells intended to damage cereal crops.

The Hebrew Bible condemns sorcery. Deuteronomy 18:11-12 calls it an "abomination" and Exodus 22:18 prescribes "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"; tales like that of 1 Samuel 28, reporting how Saul "hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land" suggest that in practice sorcery could at least lead to exile.

In later Jewish history, Rabbi Simeon ben Shetach - Pharisee scholar and Nasi of the Sanhedrin in the 1st century BC - is reported to have sentenced to death 80 women, who had been charged with witchcraft, on a single day in Ashkelon. Later the women's relatives took revenge by bringing false witnesses against Simeon's son and causing him to be executed in turn

So from a historical sence legally sanctioned, official witchcraft trials have been around for long as recorded history.

upir my freind i will defnetly post some info on it my parent are both in peru as week speak that is wear I heard this from ito did not find the info on the net to post but i will have info for you asap

I had a female family member during the Witch Trials, who admitted to being a witch, and was killed. Supposedly, she thought paganism was an ideal/religion to be revered and embraced. To not be ashamed of and hide for.

I think it is pretty ignorant to pardon them now, but then again better late than never.

Women during the trials were killed for:

- being able to bear children

- having affairs

- wearing make-up

- wearing perfume/or using scented soaps

- provocative clothing even what they consider provocative night wear

- being out at night

- being too close with other women

- being able to read, write, do math, science, etc

- walking around outside your home barefoot unless you had a reason

- you owned more than one broom

- if you could swim, only men could swim

- you could recessitate plants

- owning ANY type of black animal especially cats unless it's livestock

- accidently leaving a candle burning the day

A bunch of stupid things could get you killed.

The other bloodmother: I think it was being unable to bear children. Barrenness would have been a curse in more ways than one, the primary reason being you could wantonly engage in sexual activities w/o issue.

Severus, the Hammurabi code with house snatching sounds like mortgage banking defaults w/o the refreshing dip in the river. Just kidding. I get you. All the cursing and witchy stuff started in the way back times and presumably involved some men since they owned the houses.

The more I read about the pre-Christian witch fears, the more I have to agree with Upir that society (villages, towns, cities) were hellbent on controlling women's sexuality.

I still think it had to do with the rise of individual property ownership and the recognition that offspring were fathered by a specific male.

Then, we have jealousy, envy and stupidity entering into the picture.

In many societies where "civilization" had not interfered lineage was passed down through the mother, not the father. And in those societies women with special gifts were given a place of honor.
As Louie L'amour once stated, "You follow your bloodline through the father? You must really trust your women."
I guess that is slightly off subject but it makes the point that women have always been the ultimate threat to the civilized male. And they have been punished through the ages for the crime of being female.

This all sounds so stupid.

thanks for you opinion Tormentedone

You're very welcome, thegothprincess.

it was mostly the church they wanted everyone to be of the same religion as them if you weren't the church had you put to death not just people they thought where witches anyone of a difrent faiith

The church (which one) must certainly must accept part of the blame but there were more people killed for witchcraft or sorcery by the secular elements, the courts and the politicians. It was about power. It is unfortunate that they were able to use the religious fears of many to help their cause but church (again, which one) was not the biggest culprit.

From the website previously cited above about the Malleus Maleficarum:

I believe it’s much more likely that the Letter of Approbation was genuine, but that the Malleus itself was never actually read by the gentlemen who endorsed it. I think it’s much more likely that Dr. Edward Peters was correct when, in his section of the work Witchcraft and Magic in Europe: Volume Three – The Middle Ages [page 239], he stated; “The approval of the theological faculty of Cologne was arranged through a complicated series of academic negotiations – it, too, does not address the remarkable qualities of the work itself. It is doubtful whether Innocent VIII or the theological faculty of Cologne ever read the work.”

Whether or not the work was ever officially banned by the Catholic Church, the Malleus Maleficarum became the de-facto handbook for witch-hunters and Inquisitors throughout Late Medieval Europe. Between the years 1487 and 1520, it was published thirteen times, and between 1574 to 1669 it was again published sixteen times.

The Malleus Maleficarum perhaps owes most of its popularity to Johannes Gutenberg. It was the invention of the printing press in the middle of the fifteenth century that allowed the work to spread so rapidly throughout Europe.

This was from: http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org

Read the page
Here. It is from the 1928 edition and mostly refers to much of what was accused being motivated by political agendas and superstitions of religious folks concerning most often what they thought of as Sorcery.

I don't believe and I couldn't find the previous allegation to be true that it had anything to do with multi orgasm except if at all in possibly passing. Most often some of it was a male being thwarted by an attractive female they desired so in retaliation they accused them of either sorcery or witchery which was essentially the same thing to cover their humiliation. The blame would pass to the woman as simply being wanton as prescribed by believed rituals with the devil. Superstition.

Look at the Torsaker Witch trial. They didn't even go into that aspect. The church wanted that parish to look for witches. They believed certain parishoners could identify them and because of it, there was a really terrible consequence. You can read about that HERE.

In a number of bulls, Pope Eugenius IV (1431-1447) ordered the Inquisition to proceed against magicians and diviners, whose crimes he defined in terms of classical witchcraft; they sacrificed to demons, prayed to them, and rendered them homage; they desecrated the cross and made pacts with the Devil. Eugenius' were the most explicit of any papal condemnations in the fifteenth century, though his successor, Nicholas V (1447-1455) made it clear that the Inquisition could prosecute sorcerers even when their connection with heresy was subious.

Now moving on down this site says the MM has three criterion:

"Three elements are necessary for witchcraft: the evil-intentioned witch, the help of the Devil, and the permission of God, who though he hates evil allows it to occur, since without freedom with its potential for evil men would have no potential for good. Witchcraft is the most evil of all crimes, and worthy of the most severe punishment, for it is immediate and direct treason against God himself. The particulars of witchcraft enumerated in the Malleus include almost all the characteristics associated with classical witchcraft, insuring that they would thereafter be accepted as authoritative.

The Malleus defined witchcraft as the most abominable of all heresies, its four essential characteristics being the renunciation of the Christian faith, the sacrifice of unbaptized infants to Satan, the devotion of body and soul to evil and sexual relations with incubi. Witches have become servants of the Devil by making a pact with him and engaging in ritual copulation with Satan. They render homage to the Devil. They use incantations, effect apparent changes in their shapes by means of diabolical illusion, practice various forms of maleficium, are transvected through the air from place to place by the power of demons, and use the Christian sacraments in their vile rites. They cook and eat children, either their own or those of others; and they use the children's flesh and bones to obtain a salve or ointment which they then emply in their magical operations.

CLICK Here

To say that the definition of witchcraft was attributed to one thing is a bit dubious from all sources I have looked at and I read the page in question and didn't see that. Most likely trying to put a damper on women's sexuality was probably an objective but I don't think it was the reason for the witch trials. The church was concerned about heresy and secondly about sorcery and they combined the two. Of course since there was such a frenzy at the time anyone could accuse someone of this crime and women were a likely target by men for all number of reasons besides those cited legally. IMHO from everything I have read over time.

where can I find the complete list of names of all the "witches" killed during the Selem Witches Trails cus I am a Direct of two witches that were killed...

Azuredark -

The reason why I stated that witchcraft was "attributable to one thing" was because, in fact, the Malleus Maleficarum (MM) specifically attributes it to ... one thing:

"All witchcraft comes from carnal lust which is in women insatiable."


What is "carnal lust"?

Is "carnal lust" the worshipping of devils, performing incantations, denying Christ, committing "heresies," etc.? Does any of this have anything at all to do with what the MM specifically states is the source of "all witchcraft"?


And what of "insatiable" "carnal lust" as is only found "in women"?

Cannot men also worship devils, perform incantations, commit heresy and deny Christ, etc.? Yet the MM specifically singles out women only as those capable of expressing "insatiable" "carnal lust"... which is, yet again, the MM's declared source of "all witchcraft."


You are quite correct that the MM then defines all sorts of means and machinations, some already previously used to prosecute "witches," as the term used to be prior to the publication of the MM, that were subsequently used in identifying and prosecuting witches... as now re-defined by the MM.

Did you actually think the magistrates and the Catholic Church would openly attempt to justify burning women alive because they were ... multiorgasmic? Of course not; such was not a capital crime!

Was Jesus crucified for supposedly calling himself the "Messiah"? Of course not; such was not considered by the Romans a capital crime.

Jesus was officially charged and condemned for "treason"... which was a capital crime. This is how the murder was "officially" sanctioned and "legally" executed. Yet this was most certainly not the real reason why he was brought before Pilate by the High Priests.

So also... as the Catholic Church could not slaughter women for possessing "insatiable" "carnal lust," they found other "capital crimes," of which there were many, that they could use to "officially" and "legally" slaughter them. And the charges of "heresy," etc., that had so successfully been used previously to condemn "witches" was the perfect means of so doing.

And, thus, that is exactly what they did.


And finally, by the by... with respect to the website (www.malleusmalleficarum.org) from which you have quoted so extensively. If you will go to their "Credits" webpage, you will find that the person to whom they give credit and thanks to first is ... myself:


“Thanks” are due to•

Richard Brent – for providing invaluable assistance in nailing down some of the mythology and misinformation surrounding the Malleus Maleficarum, especially in regard to the Index Librorum Prohibitorum, and the Letter of Approbation. Richard insisted that the Malleus had not been included on the original 1559 publication of the Index Librorum Prohibitorum and provided links to reference sources that, in my mind, settled the issue of whether the Malleus was placed on the list of prohibited books, as well as whether or not the Letter of Approbation was a forgery.

- http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/?page_id=95


I am that "Richard Brent" and the weblink provided at the www.malleusmaleficarum.org website is to my own website wherein I provide a few key points of my own rather extensive historical research, of which an exhaustive study of the MM as well as its composition and history was certainly a key part.

My point here being... I am quite well versed in the MM and its history, as well as all other periods in Human history where those specifically gifted with "insatiable" "carnal lust"... be they "fallen angels" and their descendants, be they "witches" or "Vampires"... have been specifically targeted for wholesale slaughter.


- Upir'

While yes the witch trials around the world were quite horrid indeed, and i am a wiccan witch, but what everyone fails to mention. Is that At one point or another in history. EVERY religon went through some sort of "trial" for being "evil" for example the jews. They were serverly persecuted just for their religon, and if i'm correct. There was a larger body count for the jews than for the witch trails, but i'm not sure so don't take it for fact. The point is. Supposed witches and witches alike weren't the only ones.
And the EXACT thing goes for the slavery issue. At one point in history EVERY race has been enslaved at one point or another. I wish everyone would quit playing the my horse is bigger than your horse. Trying to out prove who Suffered the most through out history. Yes it was bad. Yes it sucked. Can the human race as a whole just move the ....... on?

Yes, you are correct. More Jews were murdered in a few years than there witches murdered through the centuries. The same applies to peasants in Russia and China. Millions of each in the 20th Century alone. For the most part we became too civilized to murder people for witchcraft a few centuries ago, but we man has find the means and the reasons to continue the mass murders of the poor up until the present time.

I think the whole thing was nothing more than a control factor to instill fear into people ( especially women) that if they did not do what was told of them by the over bearing male occupation of political ranks and church compined, then one word (WITCH)being thrown your way was an automatic death sentence!
The biggest part being done during the turn of two rival political religious factors in Europe.

As for the beginning post, exactly what is the point of a pardon for those hundreds of years later being cleared, after they were executed?
Oooops we - they- made a mistake?

I love Witches!!!!!!!!

Matthew Hopkins was known as a heretic hunter, that went on hunt trials looking for witches in 17th century England. Matthew Hopkins was a traiter and a cruel man for torturing women. He hanged witches for witchcraft, and he also accused inocent women as witches. Matthew Hopkins was arrested for witchcraft, because he turned out to be a witch himself. He was tied up and thrown in the river, and he flouted on the water, and he got trailed for witchcraft and hung.

The Christians were superstitious in those days, because they thought that witches were making dealings with the devil. The Christians thought that occult practices and witchcraft was devil worship, and thats why they hunted witches and trailed them. The christians put pointed hats on the witches heads and forced them to carry the cross to make christ compel their souls before they died. They also had superstitions that the witches cat or dog was a demon in discuise working along with the witch. They even said that scars on people were the mark of the devil. In Christian mythology, they beleived that heretics would burn in hell for such practices. They beleive in hell, because its christian mythology.

In modern society it's not like that anymore, because Witchcraft has nothing to do with devil worship, and magick is not evil, because in our society we have every right to practice magick as long as we harm none.

And I thought it had something to do with being made out of wood..... :)

Kidding aside there are some very good points made here. Can one imagine a world without "carnal lust"? there wouldn't be one.

I shudder to think the endless deaths brought about in the name of "God". Abhorrent as this has been, the church (and governments run by the church) has continued to single out individuals and small groups they perceive as threats to xtianity. What a joke. Just how does one define "evil" anyway???

Was there evidence in the story mentioned earlier about the Peruvian family?

Persecution of Witches & Witchcraft

383 Priscillian of Avila was executed. He was accused of Manichaeism, but the official reason for burning him was witchcraft.
circa 420

St. Augustine argues witchcraft is an impossibility


Saint Augustine of Hippo, an influential theologian in the early Christian Church, argued in the early 400s that God alone could suspend the normal laws of the universe. In his view, neither Satan nor witches had supernatural powers or were capable of effectively invoking magic of any sort. It was the "error of the pagans" to believe in "some other divine power than the one God." Of course, if witches are indeed powerless, the Church need not overly concern itself with their spells or other attempts at mischief.

The late medieval Church accepted St. Augustine's view, and hence felt little need to bother itself with tracking down witches or investigating allegations of witchcraft.


906 Canon Eposcopi, a collection of church laws, appeared. It declared that belief in witchcraft was heretical.

These are just a few from the website www.salemweb.com

I also have many many things on this subject in my journal with dates etc. if you want to read.

I feel alot of *witches* if you will were killed because people did not bother to ask them or talk to them about their beliefs, many also were just very good with herbs and remedies that were unknown to many people so they were accused of witchcraft.

Alot of interesting facts on here .

this is very interesting and informative, some of the responses i have heard of before some are very new to me i will have to do more research now

What was behind the Witch Trials?

One word....Ignorance....and I don't think I need a source for that.

well that is very true the real reasons were Ignorance that people had toward others.

Well, I can only speak on the Salem Witch Trials, of which I am familiar, being Wiccan myself. The reason this started was because of group of girls purportedly were having "fits" and blamed locals who had either some mental, physical problems, or were of a totally different race, and considered them "witches" for all intents and purposes.

People were accused of practicing withcraft and hanged, burned, stoned, tortured, and beaten.

id say it was beause racesism and stupid scared people
see when people are scared of something they try to get rid of it people are scared of what they dont know
or educated about id say it was pure payganism or wicca
wich is a relgion that worships the land wich many are aware wich people that dont know or aint educated in what it is they are fearfull soo the nonesene pushed in their head from the cathoic churchs caused the countless murders of people who deserved no such treatment pretty sad

Pantheistic rituals are prevalent in every monotheistic religion around the world.
Circumcision is a pagan ritual that mark men in a ceremonial fashion. Wedding are pagan in nature by the symbolic wearing of a ring which pays tribute to Saturn. Modern funerals follow the same pagan derived ritual with the marking of a tomb with a sacred geometric shape to immortalize the spirit. Baptism is the ritual in which the baby or person is place in water to symbolize the renewal of life, in the same way that rain replenishes the earth. Iusasset the Egyptian god of wisdom and life was later renamed by the Greeks as Isis and seen as the mother of all life. She was later replaced by the Pharaoh Qa'a as he proclaimed himself Amen Ra. The term Amen at the end of a prayer is in tribute to him the Sun God Ra.
The peoples of Egypt worshiped them both, Isis & Ra. When the slaves left Egypt (moses & the ten cammandments ) they settled in Canine the Caninits worshiped the god of Saturn EL as there god.
The Egyptians devoid of a nationality and a nation ended up adobpting all three gods.

Issis - Amen Ra - El or Is - Ra - El which is what they named themselves and their kingdom after... Israel.

A large portion of Judaism is based on the worship of Saturn - the star of David is the same as that of Saturn and the sacred day of worship is Saturday.
The practice of worship on a Sunday is a result of those that were still faithful to Ra and reserved their day of worship for the day of the Sun God.

This just scratches the surface on the pagan influence on modern man. The church didn't burn witches because they were ignorant... it is in fact the opposite it was a per-meditated doctrine designed to maintain their power.

Any act done against human is crime and evidence be there. but to push personal or collective group ideology or religion killing other peepal is not wise and condemned and it leads the answer per law of karma and this is what there are more witchcrafdt peepal and freedom in the law. the superstitious are condemned to force tehir belief and religion. I think hitler did the same and even pope rules was doing the same so why those rules are abolished now a days.

there is a long tales of misuse of judiciary system by britain even in its earlier conolies it been used wrong way only to favor rulers and to ignore their crimes.

Severus, that information is fascinating. Is it from a book or online source?

Also, could the ancients see the rings of Saturn, or even Saturn for that matter, with the naked eye?

Sorry mom, the information I gave was from accumulated knowledge I have gained over the years. As for how the ancients viewed deep space that is still a mystery in most cases, but there is over whelming evidence to support the fact that the knew and in some cases like the Mayans they knew as much if not more than we do. As this subject is of topic I will just suggest you an online search of "Archaeoastronomy".

While Saturn is most certainly visible to the naked eye, yet the rings of Saturn are not. Only after the invention of the telescope in 1609 CE was Galileo able to first discern and then draw what he saw as Saturn's ring (he was unable with his rudimentary telescope to discern the various bands [rings] therein... as his drawings of a single ring around Saturn well attest). Thus as the rings of Saturn cannot be seen with the naked eye, Galileo, through his telescope, was the first man on Earth to have actually witnessed them. And as by 1609 CE, witchcraft has been practiced for millennia (by that time even the "Burning Times" had already been going on for at least 150 years), the rings of Saturn could have had nothing whatsoever to do with the practice of witchcraft to that date. After all, how could witches have been using the rings of Saturn as part of their rituals when they could not possibly have known about their existence until Galileo discovered them through his telescope in 1609 CE?

And as for "archeoastronomy," no where prior to the invention of the telescope has any evidence been found anywhere of a knowledge of Saturn's rings prior to 1609 CE.

Another reason why, despite the feelings and "intuitions" and "learnings" claimed by so many where the supernatural and the "metaphysical" are concerned, actual historical facts and empirical inquiry ought to be pursued and acquired first.


- Upir'

... As should be apparent, the above applies just as equally to all Pagan worship and rituals, as well; no attempt to attribute Saturn's rings to any such could have occurred until after 1609 CE.


- Upir'

I believe in the ancient past there was more knowledge about astronomy than after the advent of Galileo Galilei "discoveries", It doesn't take to Galilei's findings to know about the outer planets of our solar system, thats just the modern uprising of the space recovery of lost knowledge (or is it restrained science in Roman-christian periods & so forth?).

Firmament -

No matter how intelligent and wise our ancient ancestors might have been, they could not have theorized that which they could not see. And as the rings of Saturn cannot be seen by the un-aided eye... then they could not have known of them prior to the 1609 CE invention of the telescope.

Of course, I would welcome any evidence you might wish to provide to the contrary. As there are no drawings nor writings of any ancient peoples that attest to a knowledge of the ring(s) of Saturn, I would be delighted to learn what evidences you might have that would indicate otherwise.


- Upir'

upir forgets the question methinks, in his quest to show what he knows.. thew question referred to whayt made people do as they do.. well, the answer isn't complicated, is it??

people react badly, to that which is different??

[in this case, perhaps it was something as innocuous as someone who knew the herbs, etc, either way.. it isn't complicated, as some make it.]

Angelus forgets, methinks, that it was Severus who deviated from the topic by attempting to show what he claims to know about the influences of paganism on today's society... which is what prompted my responses to the misinformation he gave as factual. Apparently Angelus also forgets that I commented earlier quite at length regarding why exactly witches were so persecuted during the witch trials of the 15th through 17th Centuries ...

... and it had nothing to do with herbs, btw. ;)


- Upir'

I been hearing stories of the 16, and 17th century were men, women and children being wrongly accused sentenced to death because they're behavior. Claiming everyone a witch.. it's ironic how people are without judging someone else's character.

I believe that they were accused wrongly back then for pretty much the same reasons that people would be accused wrongly today. Its just that the penalties in that day were much more severe over things that the mainstream public were afraid of and didn't understand. Its all simply persecution by those who have the means to rule over others and cannot do so without making sure that those they rule over remain sheep in their herd. And one must do things to make examples to frighten others into herd conformity.

One instance of the Saturn myth can be verified with the help of a small telescope: Saturn is in chains. Instead of solving anything, this fact presents a new problem that demands a solution. How did the ancient Greeks and Romans know that Saturn is encircled by rings?(1) It is strange that this question was not asked before.(2) The existence of these rings around Saturn became known in modern times only in the seventeenth century, after the telescope was invented. They were first seen, but misunderstood, by Galileo(3) and understood by Huygens.(4)

If the myth did not by mere chance invent these rings, the Greeks must have seen them. The last case could be true if the Greeks or some other oriental people possessed lenses adapted for the observation of celestial bodies, or if the rings around Saturn were visible to the naked eye at some time in the past—today they are not visible without magnifying instruments. There are cases of exact observations by the Chaldeans which suggest the use of some accurate technical means.(5) These means could consist of a sort of astrolabe like that of Tyche de Brahe who made most accurate observations of celestial bodies without the help of a telescope; also Copernicus, prior to Tyche de Brahe, made all his calculations of the movements of the planets before the telescope was invented. But neither Tycho de Brahe nor Copernicus saw the rings.

The statue of Saturn on the Roman capitol had bands around its feet,(6) and Macrobius in the fifth century of our era, already ignorant of the meaning of these bands, asked: “But why is the god Saturn in chains?”

In the Egyptian legend Isis (Jupiter) swathes Osiris (Saturn). The Egyptian apellative for Osiris was “the swathed.” (7)

In the Zend-Avesta it is said that the star Tistrya (Jupiter, later Venus) keeps Pairiko in twofold bonds.(8) Saturn is encircled by two groups of rings—one larger and one smaller, with a space in between. To see this a better telescope than that used by Galilei or that used by Huygens is needed; the twofold structure of the girdle was first observed in 1675.(9)

The rings of Saturn were known also to the aboriginees of America before Columbus discovered the land; this means also before the telescope was invented at the beginning of the seventeenth century. An ancient engraved wooden panel from Mexico shows the family of the planets: one of them is Saturn, easily recognizable by its rings.(10)

Nor were the Maoris of New Zealand ignorant of them: “One of the great mysteries connected with Saturn is the still unanswered question of how the ancient Maoris of New Zealand knew about her rings—for there is evidence that they did have a Saturnian ring legend long before the days of Galileo.” (11)

In the myth it is said that Jupiter drove Saturn away and that on this occasion Saturn was put in chains. If these words mean what they say and are not a meaningless portion of the myth—in a dream, at least, there are no meaningless parts—then the knowledge of the ancients about the rings of Saturn could have been acquired because of better visibility: in other words, at some time in the past Saturn and Earth appear to have been closer to one another.

Originally I assumed that the rings of Saturn may consist of water in the form of ice, but since the ancient lore all around the world tells that it was Jupiter that put these rings around Saturn,(12) I considered that they might have some other components, too. Since the 1960’s spectroscopic study of the Saturnian rings has confirmed that they consist most probably of water in the form of ice.

Directly retrieved from: http://www.varchive.org/itb/rings.htm

- Sitchin argues, one sees the sun surrounded by eleven globes. Since ancient peoples (including the Sumerians according to Sitchin) held the sun and moon to be “planets,” these eleven globes plus the sun add up to twelve planets. Of course, since we now know of nine planets plus our sun and moon, part of Sitchin’s argument is that the Sumerians knew of an extra planet beyond Pluto. This extra planet is considered by Sitchin to be Nibiru, an astronomical body mentioned in Mesopotamian texts.


The above picture taken from a Sumerian cylinder seal cleary shows that they knew Saturn had rings around it.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/03files/Sumerian_Astronomy.html

I dont have any sources, but my answer is common sense.

They didnt have anything else to do. And/or if they didnt like someone, all they had to do is call out "WITCH" and its over.

Well... see we took semantics and ran of the edge of earth with it. lol

OK, I was willing to allot generalizations for the pure sake of sparing everyone the novel size history lessons of my examples, in order to stay on topic as much as possible.
But apparently some folks felt it was necessary to dip deeper in an attempt to look like an intellect. For starters what your 5 minute Wikipedia search didn't give you was perspective. The fact that One of Ramses the seconds conquests was the retaking of Syria "RETAKING" key word here. Egyptian mythology and worship... To include Issis and Amen Ra would without a doubt been present in the region long before Joshua's interventions with the Canaanites.

Secondly the slaves of Egypt where not Jewish, there where not Israelites, nor where they Hebrews, they where the slaves of an unnamed Pharaoh (presumed to be Ramses the II) The above distinctions where not made of nor given until long after the "conquest of Canaan."
Since quoting unprovable scripture seems to be the chosen format here I submit the following -

"God in the burning bush reveals his name to Moses, and tells him to return to Egypt and lead the people into Canaan, the land promised to Abraham."
"Moses returns to Egypt, where God again says his name to Moses. God instructs Moses to appear before the Pharaoh and inform him of God's demand that he let God's people go."

This of course lead to the Journey to Mt. Sinai and the
The Exodus begins...

Again they were Slaves!!
Not all of them were god's people either. They were in fact a rag tag group (in biblical approximation) of 600,000 men, women, and children... a mixed multitude at best. This is also the reason why they were so easily swayed into sin at the foot of God's mountain.
"You Know the one from which moses cast down and broke Gods commandments."
They remained a mixed group thus is why when the verbal and written version of the story was attempted to be translated from Hebrew into Greek, the Greeks coined the name Israelites, based on there religious diversity... this was done along with all the other famous terms you used like Exodus instead of the three different Hebrew terms Shemot, Shemoth, or Shemos... take your pick.
The entire story - Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus... Yeah all Greek and for which most of who I was speaking to knew. I will grant the fact that I made an assumption that most don't speak ancient Hebrew, sorry my bad.

Lastly I don't really need to comment on Saturn as others have done that for me... but to say that none prior to 1610 could have known about Saturn and it's rings is just ignorant to the mountain of facts. But of course some folks still believes Columbus discovered America and not Cuba, because that's what it says it a history book. In the future if you want the facts about history then read a history book... if you want the truth about History then read 10.



Can't you just Feel the Love.

I'm not quite sure how we went from witch trials to Saturn and it's rings but I suppose a good conversation or debate is a living thing and can evolve into something far beyond where it started.
But to say that Wikepedia is not the end all of knowledge completely floors me. How can one doubt the facts.
At one time we used to say, "it was on TV so it must be true." Now we have the internet and access to unlimited information. So once it is on-line it is inescapably true to many. That thought throws much more fear into my heart than all the end of the world theories and predictions.

Witch trials bad. Wikepedia potentially worse. Historical fiction, taught as fact, worst of all.

There have been some almost brilliant posts in this string. And some that were, hmmmm, slightly less than stellar. But I have watched, read, and listened, and there are a few here that truly impressed me.

And some, not so much.

Just an observation from the wings.

-Upir,

-[The rings of Saturn are referred to by Aeschylus, Eumenides 641: “He [Zeus] himself cast into bonds his aged father Cronus” ; cf. Lucian, Astrology, 21: “Moreover, it is not true, neither, that Saturn is in chains.” Neoplatonists like Proclus In Timaeo, tr. by Festugiere, vol. III, p. 255 and n. 4; In Cratylo 209.3f) and Porphyry (De Antro Nympharum 67.21ff.) sought a philosophical or mystical meaning in the tradition. Cf. also Clemens Alexandrinus, Homilia, VI.
"And finally, the day name "Saturday" was invented by the Romans in honor of their god, Saturn. The Roman Empire, didn't even exist until more than a thousand years AFTER the Jews had already been honoring the "Sabbath," as commanded them in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20). Thus... here again... there is no correlation whatsoever between "Paganism" and Judaism."

-"And as for "archeoastronomy," no where prior to the invention of the telescope has any evidence been found anywhere of a knowledge of Saturn's rings prior to 1609 CE."

-"And as the rings of Saturn cannot be seen by the un-aided eye...then they could not have known of them prior to the 1609 CE invention of the telescope.

-Of course, I would welcome any evidence you might wish to provide to the contrary. As there are no drawings nor writings of any ancient peoples that attest to a knowledge of the ring(s) of Saturn, I would be delighted to learn what evidences you might have that would indicate otherwise."

----------

xiii in Patrologiae Cursus Completus, Series Graeca, J.-P. Migne ed., vol. II.207f; Dio Chrysostom, Fourteenth Discourse 21ff: “And yet the King of the Gods, the first and eldest one, is in bonds, they say, if we are to believe Hesiod and Homer and the other wise men who tell this tale about Cronus.” Cf. Hesiod, Works and Days, 169ff. Augustine, refuting those who asserted that the Jewish Sabbath was held in honor of Saturn, wrote: “ita patres nostri longe fuerunt a Saturniacis catenis, quamvis pro tempore propheatiae sabbati vacationem observaverint.” (Contra Faustum Manichaeum XX. 13. in Migne ed., Patrologiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina, Vol. XLII, p. 379). Cf. also Arnobius, Contra Gentes IV. 24 in ibid., vol. III: “Numquid paricidii causa vinctum esse Saturnum, et suis diebus tantum vinculorum ponderibus revelari?” and Minucius Felix, Octavius XXI, in ibid., vol. III, col. 304: “Quid formae ipsae et habitus? . . . Saturnus compeditis.” An epigram of Martial (III. 29) refers to the bonds of Saturn, comparing them to rings: “Has cum gemina compede dedicat catenas, Saturne, tibi Zoilus anulos priores.” “These chains with their double fetter Zoilus dedicates to you, Saturnus. They were formerly his rings."—transl. by W. Kerr (London, 1919). The shrines to Saturn in Roman Africa portrayed the god with his head surrounded “by a veil that falls on each of his shoulders,” in a way reminiscent of the planet’s rings. See J. Toutain, De Saturni Dei in Africa Romana Cultu (Paris, 1894), p. 42 and figs. 1 and 2.].

The Zend-Avesta xvi, transl. by J. Darmesteter (1883), p. 107. [The text of the Zend-Avesta reads: “Tistrya, bright star, keeps Pairiko in twofold bonds, in threefold bonds.” A third ring around Saturn was observed in 1980. Velikovsky also thought that Mithraic representations of Kronos with his body encircled by a snake (cf. F. Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra [1903], figs 21-23) may attest to a memory of the rings of Saturn. Cf. the Hindu Sani (the planet Saturn) shown in an ancient woodcut reproduced in F. Maurice, Indian Antiquities (London, 1800), vol. VII, and described by the author as “encircled with a ring formed of serpents.” Tammuz, who represented the planet Saturn in Babylonia (E. Weidner, Handbuch der Babylonisches Astronomie [Leipzig, 1915], p. 61) was called “he who is bound.” See also Thorkild Jacobsen, Toward the Image of Tammuz (Harvard University Press, 1970), p. 85. and A. E. Thierens, Astrology in Mesopotamian Culture (Leiden, 1935). Ninib, who was also Saturn, was said to hold “the unbreakable bond” or “der maechtigen Schlange"—Jastrow, Die Religion Babyloniens und Assyriens, ch. xvii, p. 463.].

[But cf. Th. Taylor in The Classical Journal 40 (1819), pp. 324-326, and A. de Grazia, “Ancient Knowledge of Jupiter’s Bands and Saturn’s Rings,” KRONOS II.3 (1977), pp. 65ff.]

[A useful discussion of Maori astronomical ideas is provided in a monograph by E. Best, The Astronomical Knowledge of the Maori, Genuine and Empirical, New Zealand Dominium Museum Monograph no. 3 (Wellington, 1922), p. 35:

PAREARAU represents one of the planets. Stowell says that it is Saturn; that Parearau is a descriptive name for that planet, and describes its appearance, surrounded by a ring. The word pare denotes a fillet or headband; arau means “entangled"—or perhaps “surrounded” in this case, if the natives really can see the pare of Saturn with the naked eye. If so, then the name seems a suitable one. . . . Of the origin of this name one says, ‘Her band quite surrounds her, hence she is called Parearau.’” ].

I hope it helps fill some holes in your history, -Upir

Is it just me or does thinking about Saturn remind you of Saturnalia which reminds you of Roman orgies?

The planets are named after Roman and Greek gods.

http://www.universetoday.com/guide-to-space/saturn/name-of-saturn/

Witches no doubt knew not the planets or telescopes, but viewed the stars and moon above them with awe while all the scholars quoted in this thread did naught to save their skins from the fire.

Even if we discard the possibility that ancient people couldn't know past Saturn with the "naked eye" then where does the equivalency of Poseidon (Neptune), Hades(Pluto), Vesta (Hestia), Ceres (Demeter), Juno (Hera); stars or "Gods"(planets, asteroids, satellites,dwarf stars- interpretation of the period [Greek & Roman]) came from?

"Humans are able to see to about apparent magnitude 6, and Uranus varies from 5.9 to 5.3, But it was never recognised as a planet by ancient observers due to its dimness.
Neptune, at apparent magnitude 8 is not visible to the naked eye."

That concludes that we cannot see past Saturn and it would take a magnificent timing and very dim dark skies to see Uranus, Then I would guess the knowledge of Pluto and Neptune are a ancient mystery to our mainstream science.

Going back to my first commentary Roman-Christian periods could in fact orchestrate the entombment of the knowledge of denominations, Gods/goddess, religions and other practices that were so welcomed in the rise of the Roman empire( which was in fact what forged that expansion and cultural outbreak- the liberty of beliefs and practices among other socio-political & cultural freedom), later when original Roman empire began its downfall by massive expansion and reorganization of Christian influence the isolation of these polytheistic & other practices began to be subject of heresy in the founded redefinition, those other beliefs that were so welcome in the multicultural empire began to be excluded and the temples and statues drifted into a new concept or destroyed, by the fall of that empire and the new sovereignty of the indoctrination, this would in fact be why there has being things kept since then and still have by the Roman church, even when science were challenging christianity, they knew the full knowledge of this planets and "other things" surrounding their divinity, it would involve sacrificing the outer planets knowledge in western cultures (Greek & Roman)periods in doing so [which in fact the knowledge goes way back and they know this, while we carve for it]; the price of retention of faith cost vast amount of time for modern view, as new discoveries and leaks has been accounted the pieces begins to make sense time by time, vastly the secret societies, ancient historians & Archaeology are to greet for most of this, for heaven sakes the masons had to code things within those great elaborated Gothic churches to keep the knowledge going and at the same time fool the church clerks with cryptic details of saints and angels with other hidden symbology.

Hmm typo,

4PA.
14 Li.
were/was

Firmament
I See that when I said read 10 books you went ahead and just read them all. lol

I agree with your conclusions and the facts of history are there for those that have chosen to look for them, as you clearly have. My only point here was to demonstrate that the witch trials where not as random as one would think and that it was also a premeditated attempt to weed out pantheistic practices and other forms of heresy as viewed by the church. A religion who at the time was in it's own state of hysteria, which bled down to it's followers.

But if I may add one last notation on perspective... an observation on our most current history.
I believe that when Bloodmother started a thread on the witch trials that she never intended for them to actually become "Witch Trials."
Knowing when to make your point heard and when your point is heard are a necessary balance.
It is time for others to share their thoughts on the subject and I for one turn the floor over to them.

And now, as Severus has likewise suggested, let us return to the subject of "Witch Trials."

When last we visited this fascinating topic, we were discussing... I believe... the issue of ignorance on the part of the peoples involved as well as the term "witch" being used to officially indict and have tortured and murdered almost anyone with whom others might have a "beef."

If I might, I would state that I agree with this last and latest observation, especially where petty disputes between private citizens were concerned during such horrific times. Yet I would also hasten to add that while this is the understandable result of such a culture of cruelest injustice... yet this was most certainly not the source of it, which was the establishment of the institution of the Holy Inquisition, to begin with, and then its ultimate culmination as the prosecutors of innocent women for simply possessing "insatiable" "carnal lust" (Malleus Maleficarum Questions Six) to a degree men cannot appreciate nor understand... only envy. And that envy is what had them ultimately demonizing that capacity to the point of putting to death so many innocents for simply possessing that which they, their insecure and jealous prosecutors, could never possess.


- Upir'

Clearly, there was an urge to control women . . . always. But not only sexually viable women were persecuted, so were men, girls, older women, anyone who was slightly different. Were the burning years an early mode of fascism? Is their any historical record of a single voice rising in objection to the proceedings?

Same as in most cases. People persecute wha they don't understand or find different from the norm... We may not burn for it but people still suffer to this day for being different.
I also had read in many cases nieghbors accused nieghbors in an attempt to gain land or over minor disputes.

Either you lack the ability to read/reinterpretate or just lost in mainstream limited degree of disclosure, you will never find a direct source saying is a "ring" in ancient times; given that they saw any celestial body as a star/planet (God/dess)when in fact could've been a dwarf planet, satellite, meteor, etc.., they would never depict them as rings as in modern denomination. Each culture has ways to project their knowledge with the interpretation of the period and culture. If there is a sphere surrounded by snake doesn't directly mean a celestial body is surrounded by a cosmic snake. I think it doesn't take that much knowledge in science to understand that the body is surrounded or entangled by something, there is more sources that illustrate imageries with the "ring" it only take interest to find it; please refract your arrogance if you don't have anything else to expand in your defense.

Firmament -

If you wish to argue this further, please refrain from ad hominem attacks and simply message me. I would be happy to show you that you have taken each of these out of their actual cultural and historical contexts, thus arriving at conclusions far removed from their actual meaning and intent.

Only one example of this is re: the "Tammuz"-in-bonds reference. This refers to the Tammuz (Babylonian/Judaic equivalent of the far-older Sumerian demi-god "Dumuzi") epic of his descent into the Netherworld in which he was held in bondage until rescued by the goddess Inanna. Nothing whatsoever to do with Saturn ... with or without its rings.

Let's keep the focus of this thread on the topic at hand: Witch Trials.


- Upir'

They who did not understand those that used herbs and natural substances to heal and cleanse or even bless with, perscuted them with no bearing on age or sex. there are many stories where children were even perscutedand punished.

It all comes down to stupidity and not wanting change or to undestand it within their region.

Religious context

Reverend Cotton Mather (1663-1728)The Puritans were a number of religious groups that sprang up during the 17th century as opposition to the Church of England. Puritans opposed many of the traditions of the Church of England, notably the Book of Common Prayer, but also ceremonial rituals such as the use of priestly vestments (cap and gown) during services, the use of the Holy Cross during baptism and kneeling during the sacrament.

The colony of Massachusetts at the time was heavily influenced by Puritan thought, but was not a theocracy. A few Protestants (such as Roger Williams) prior to this period had contended that this level of religious involvement in the State was contrary to the pure teachings of the New Testament, in which the church was separate from the state, and unrepentant sinful behavior that merited serious spiritual discipline was administered by supernatural means.

The Puritans believed in the existence of an invisible world inhabited by God and the angels including the Devil (who was seen as a fallen angel) and his fellow demons. To Puritans, this invisible world was as real as the visible one around them.

In his book Memorable Providences Relating to Witchcrafts and Possessions (1689), Cotton Mather describes strange behavior exhibited by the four children of Boston mason John Goodwin and attributed it to witchcraft practiced upon them by an Irish washerwoman, Mary Glover.

Mather, a minister of Boston's North Church (not to be confused with the Episcopal Old North Church of Paul Revere fame), was a prolific publisher of pamphlets and a firm believer in witchcraft.


just alittle more on the Trials and reasons for them. Which are in my own opinion was unjustifiable.

What people tend to forget is that Witch Trials are still common today.

The best example is the "Witch Trials" for the late 40's and early 50's. other wise knows as the era of McCarthyism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Just substitue Communits for witches and job loss for burning at the stake and you basicaly have the same thing.

A few people ramp up the fear of something and the sheep follow suit wanting to be protected and safe.

Just because you can always find those in authority unjustly judging those in lesser authority, which has and always will occur in society, does not make this on the same par as the actual "Witch Trials" of the Burning Times. To attempt such a comparison is to trivialize, imho, the atrocities and horrors and near-genocidal slaughters that occurred during those centuries. No... not saying that was your intent... just saying that that is what it is.

Now... if you wish to compare the "Burning Times" to the "Holocaust"... we would have a far more accurate and parallel comparison.


- Upir'

Not my intent, just the most recent mass case I could find with lots of doumentation.

you both are right and it is sad because I would think that at this tiem and age of our country USA and the world in general, Society would of progressed pass that. Unfortunately Society as a whole is very Judgemental of anything they feelis not Proper or in suit with the rest of them.
I mean God forbid people actually have a brain and knowledge to wander off into other ways of lifestyles or faith, hell anything period.

They want us all to be sheep and just follow the leader with blinders on having no personal opinion, faith, lifestyle etc that is different then what they may fellis right and proper.

As they say we cannot please everyone, yet, why can we not try to UNDERSTAND /LEARN from others that may be different from what they consider the normal grid

green witch fantasies called it right, they were killed because of ignorance.

someone said they were practising the old ways, some yes. others showed symptons of depression.

I'm sure that many of those women .. and, on the whole they were all women I believe.. had their own stories of misery to tell at that time.. but witches, I doubt it.

that said, in England, Catholics have burnt Prodestants and vice versa.. all in the name of religion.

weird lot the British [I should know.]

there wer some men that were hanged as well, John Proctor, George Jacobs, and John Willard just to name a few. Yet it was all due to ignorance as has been stated.