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Zodiac changes- Could this effect us in all ways?
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Nekirena
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05:16:26 Jan 14 2011
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They changed the Zodiac signs, according to these two links, because the Earth and Sun are moving slower they have added a new sign- the 13th called an Ophiuchus and have moved all the dates around and adjusted it to fit it in.


There is now a 13th Zodiac sign, the Ophiuchus...

Another article on it...

The New Dates:

Capricorn: Jan. 20 - Feb. 16
Aquarius: Feb. 16 - March 11
Pisces: March 11- April 18
Aries: April 18 - May 13
Taurus: May 13 - June 21
Gemini: June 21 - July 20
Cancer: July 20 - Aug. 10
Leo: Aug. 10 - Sept. 16
Virgo: Sept. 16 - Oct. 30
Libra: Oct. 30 - Nov. 23
Scorpio: Nov. 23 - Nov. 29
Ophiuchus: Nov. 29 - Dec. 17
Sagittarius: Dec. 17 - Jan. 20


What do you think about it?
For those who think they were linked to their prior sign, do you think you are more "related" to what they say is the "new" horoscope chart?




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DemonicPanther1203
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07:43:57 Jan 14 2011
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Apparently I have been shifted, but my personality is more like my old sign than my new sign



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Xzavier
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11:15:00 Jan 14 2011
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All the "worries" about this is completely idiotic. I don't mean to be rude or anything but look folks...

Astrology is based on what? The stars right? And the signs, traits, horoscopes etc have all been based on the location of the stars thousands of years ago (when the system was developed). Thus a "Libra" is based on the Libra of 50 BC, not 2011 AD.

The Earth rotates and the zodiac changes. The stars that astrology was based upon are NOT in the same position today as they were then and haven't been for at least 300 years. Therefore if you were born say Dec, 14 you were NOT born under Sagittarius but "Ophiuchus".

It doesn't matter if the "old" traits fit you because there are just as many who it doesn't fit. It also doesn't matter what you believe, fact is fact and reality is reality. Anyone who actually studies the stars or astrology and who has a real understanding of it has known about this "flaw" for a long time. The only reason why they don't go and say "well you're not actually a Libra" is so they can still look all mystical and charge you $45 hoping they can give you a broad enough reading that you'll latch on and say it's real.

Now, generally speaking this "change" has less to do with the mystical and more to do with plain ole science. Fact is the skies have 13 zodiac constellations and it's high time we recognize it. Heck the whole reason there were 12 wasn't because of some ancient wisdom but because some of the folks who made this stuff up liked 12 over 13 and arbitrarily kicked the 13th sign (Ophiuchus) out.

So for some of you yes your "new" traits might not match up to who you are but for just as many the old traits didn't fit them and these new ones will. Why? Because astrology is based on probabilities, coincidences and best guesses, not hardcore reality. That's how it's always been and will continue to be.

Personally, being born Dec 14th I HATE my new sign because it sounds stupid (Oh-FEE-yoo-Cus) but the traits associated with it fits me for the most part, the same as Sagittarius. Go figure :)

Besides, shouldn't you be who you are not try to be what some flaming gas ball 1,000 light years away "says" you are?



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Abstract
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13:08:37 Jan 14 2011
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It shouldn't effect any of us as a person unless we are having children soon.

Astrological signs are based off which sign you are born under, not which sign your birthday falls under.

If you were born under Sagittarius under the old system, but under this new one, your birthday falls under Ophiuchus it doesn't matter. If you want to be whatever your new zodiac is, go for it. But it should only affect newborns from now on.



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King`Tarquin
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16:09:48 Jan 14 2011
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OK! I'll humor you for posting this.

I can't say that it's affecting me - the change and whatnot - regardless if ALL of us would check in (every once in a while) on what the stars has for us today - don't deny it. BUT, life's a matter of choices - I know that is for sure.

Though it DOES make you ask - why did they change it or add a new one,right?

So to answer you question: regardless of the shift or whatever - for old time's sake - because there was a time (when I, and probably everyone, was younger) that I studied and checked and sort of dabbled with things like this - Astrology - I'd still be a Taurus. Period.

And oh yes, if it's ANY consolation this NEW thing and/or changes only affects those who were born on the year 2009 or AFTER 2009.

Last I checked, no one's 2 years old here.



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dabbler
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20:03:43 Jan 14 2011
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Astrology proves to be Barnum Effective. which is a use of general vague phrases.



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DarkxSidexOfxThexMoon
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22:14:58 Jan 14 2011
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Something doesn't add up with this horoscope.. Has anyone else noticed? For instance.. If you were born February 16th you would now miraculously have 2 signs at the same time.. You would be a Capricorn and an Aquarius. If your birthdate is March 11th, you would be an Aquarius and Pisces. It's just a mistake in writing I think.. For the ones that are interested I found the following dates, so they don't overlap each other..

Capricorn= January 19 - February 15
Aquarius= February 16 - March 11
Pisces= March 12 - April 18
Aries= April 19 - May 13
Taurus= May 14 - June 19
Gemini= June 20 - July 20
Cancer= July 21 - August 9
Leo= August 10 - September 15
Virgo= September 16 - October 30
Libra= October 31 - November 22
Ophiuchus= November 30 - December 17
Sagittarius= December 18 - January 18


By posting this I'm not saying by any means I came up with this or anything. This Forum Thread has been started by NocturnalMistress and is entirely hers. I just noticed something wasn't right with the dates and so I looked it up myself and above is what I found.

To NocturnalMistress: I hope I didn't offend you or anything by posting this. If I did, please forgive me because it was not my intention..

Sincerely

DarkxSidexOfxThexMoon



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Nekirena
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22:26:37 Jan 14 2011
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Thanks Abs for looking into that, I wasn't able to find any other news on it.

And it doesn't offend me, they seem to be still altering it anyways. :)



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SpookyTheCat
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22:30:49 Jan 14 2011
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As it is now people still fall on the cusp beetween two signs depending on when their birthday is now.

And as it has been stated already, it is based on when we were born. Not to worried about this at all.



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Caughtfire
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01:07:14 Jan 15 2011
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If you look for truths in vague statements and how they coincide with your life you will find them. Its not very complicated for us to draw our own conclusions from something like: a problem you have been dealing with in a money or family matter will soon be understood. I’m willing to bet most people could somehow fit that into their life.

I got shifted to, doesn’t really matter I don’t believe in fate and besides *points to the hair* I’m a leo.



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Xzavier
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01:12:39 Jan 15 2011
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But thats the thing, under the "old" system (old as in before this change was made) if you were born Dec. 14, 19.. (I keep using it cuz its my bday & bc the sign has been changed) you were born in reality under the Oph. zodiac, you were NOT born under Sag. even though thats what the astrology tables say. The fact is the common astrological signs & tables have been inaccurate and reporting the wrong signs for a good many years.

So really shouldn't the entire field of astrology be tossed out on its butt and redone to reflect the reality plastered in the stars above, not on the 1,000 year old charts below? That is if astrology is something you want to believe in.



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Nekirena
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01:52:11 Jan 15 2011
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I think that the chart being used is ancient history, so to speak, that if we went off of the newer chart that they have shown then we would being looking at Astrology in a different light.

Newer aspects of astrology, newer forms of stars, etc, are known to pop up on our radar and are known to be shown in different parts of astrology all the time, just not publicly noted every single time.

My question is this:

If you based something, such as one's beliefs, off of the older charts, would that ultimately effect your way of thinking and your beliefs, etc...?



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Xzavier
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03:33:34 Jan 15 2011
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I don't believe in astrology but I'm familiar with it enough. Just a little disclaimer.

I don't think basing things off older charts would affect anything astrologically speaking, the problem is with peoples interpretations. But, since what we base our beliefs on is an important part of our life, basing them on anything would affect what we think, how we see the world etc. It would change it mentally speaking but not the reality of things. Basically our outlook on things would be biased toward our ideological foundations. Make any sense?



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Jamie
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08:50:23 Jan 15 2011
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I see where they are coming from. I can also see traits of the other sign in myself and some others. Not everyone, but that could be other signs in them as well.

For instance, we all have more than just a sun sign in us. So how does that affect our ascendant and signs in our houses and planets? Progressions?

I've been into astrology since I was 12. Been into it a long time!



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Jamie
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08:53:59 Jan 15 2011
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PS---"Anyone who actually studies the stars or astrology and who has a real understanding of it has known about this "flaw" for a long time. "---I agree. I've thought about this sort of thing before.

Also, when is the line for where people are affected the most? People from awhile back...are they still in this? Does this pertain mainly to those born now? All the astrology programs and books......don't have this new stuff listed. Just stuff thinking about.....



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Cabrion
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18:32:43 Jan 15 2011
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This greatly reminds me of the thread "Does the moon control us?"
i feel the answers are linked...



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WolfintheMyst
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19:30:21 Jan 15 2011
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sorry but regardless..I was born a Libra and I'll die a Libra....plus I am not changing my Libra tats into a Virgo...who knew this would be like the old idea not to tat a name on yourself...did I ever think I would change my Zodiac sign like a husband?! Hell no



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Angelus
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00:30:54 Jan 16 2011
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'they' can shift what 'they' want, doesn't make it so.
Astrology is a many many hundreds of years old.. and, they change it Now.. yeah, sure.

call me impressed, NOT!



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Nekirena
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01:07:32 Jan 16 2011
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According to different articles, it would be more for those born after 2011 that it would effect the change of zodiacs.



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VoodooChild
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01:39:12 Jan 16 2011
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People buy too easily into the power of suggestion. That's why astrology is still popular.

I do find it pretty hilarious though, when it comes to the people that got their "sign" tattooed on them, and now are apparently something else. Hahaha.



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DemianA
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01:43:06 Jan 16 2011
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When I was born it was under the sign of Capricorn. I fit the personality of a Capricorn, Scorpio ascendant, Moon in Cancer. Regardless of the "new" 13th sign, I think I will continue believing what I have been for over a half century.
These new age modifications, based on the addition of Ophiuchus in my opinion are nothing but fodder for the writers of Astrology books and their publishers, Llewellyn I am sure, at the vanguard.



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Xzavier
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02:00:29 Jan 16 2011
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I find it funny that some of you are talking about these "new" modifications as though "they" were artificially changing "reality". Well it was "those" people many hundreds of years ago (technically a few thousand) who made the change in the first place to remove the 13th sign. Ophiuchus has been there all along, it was "they" who took it out arbitrarily and so now ""they"" (the people with actual facts and reality on their side) are simply saying that it was retarded to get rid of a zodiac sign, something written in the stars, not conjured up, and so they're simply making it RIGHT.

Of course in the end any zodiac sign and every single constellation in the universe is nothing more than a bunch of made up "I see Jesus in my toast" optical illusions.

They're not real folks. Most of the stars in the zodiac have nothing to do physically or gravitationally with each other. They're dozens to thousands of light years apart. People have seen patterns in the skies for hundreds of thousands of years, it just so happens that some stars remain in place for longer periods and that some decided they should have names and "powers".



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02:06:32 Jan 16 2011
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# ARIES = APRIL 19 - MAY 13
# TAURUS = MAY 14 - JUNE 19
# GEMINI = JUNE 20 - JULY 20
# CANCER = JULY 21 - AUG 9
# LEO = AUGUST 10 - SEPTEMBER 15
# VIRGO = SEPTEMBER 16 - OCTOBER 30
# LIBRA = OCTOBER 31 - NOVEMBER 22
# SCORPIO = NOVEMBER 23 - NOVEMBER 29
# OPHIUCHUS = NOVEMBER 30 - DECEMBER 17
# SAGITTARIUS = DECEMBER 18 - JANUARY 18
# CAPRICORN = JANUARY 19 - FEBRUARY 15
# AQUARIUS = FEBRUARY 16 - MARCH 11
# PISCES = MARCH 12 - APRIL 18

These are the actual dates....
I still don't know how I feel about it.



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03:11:43 Jan 16 2011
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I've seen everything telling me about the new sign. My question is with new adjustments on the dates of each sign how does that effect all of the signs characteristics?

They give a list of attributes for the new sign, but the other 12 have yet to be adjusted so the old attributes of those signs fit better. What are the new new characteristics of the old signs now that most people are changing signs. I've always fit the characteristics of Aquarius and now I would be a Capricorn and those characteristics don't fit me at all.

Anyone know of a website that has these attributes listed?
Just curious...



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Cabrion
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05:37:31 Jan 16 2011
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This is so weirdddddddd
my new sign says all the same things about me as the old one doessss between the two i'm hearing absolutely nothing new save for some traits that everybody possesses on some levell
it's like it was made that way or something. Weird right? lulz.



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Angelus
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13:47:54 Jan 16 2011
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As I said, Astrolody is old.. to me, it's a bit like in the sixties when buddishm took off in California.. it didn't change Buddishm, just how some utilised it.. making it 'fashionable.'



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supersteve
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14:49:15 Jan 16 2011
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I always felt that my horoscopes were off and that my sign didnt fit me but the new one is perfectly me. Also does this change affect years and months somehow?



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ImperfectBeing
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19:11:04 Jan 16 2011
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"Not everyone in the world of astrology uses the tropical zodiac . Astrologers in India and some in the west use a zodiac determined by sidereal time measured from a fixed point in space , traditionally the star Spica . Sidereal time is absolute time , which differs from clock time by four minutes in every 24 hours . This system is also known as the constellation zodiac; originally the vernal (spring) equinox was coincident with the beginning of the constellation of stars known as Aries . Over thousands of years , however, the time of the vernal equinox moved slowly backwards past the constellations . It last coincided with the start of Aries about 1800 BC. By the year 1 AD the vernal equinox had begun it's movement through the constellation of Pisces . Hence the past 2000 years have been the age of Pisces , associated with the growth of Christianity . A new age is beginning now as the vernal equinox moves into the constellation Aquarius . Thus it can be seen that a sidereal zodiac changes it's position in space . So , to a sidereal astrologer , a person born on 25th March ( Aries in the tropical zodiac) would be born in the constellation of Pisces ."

"Although we refer above to sidereal time , in this zodiac system time is irrelevant . The constellation zodiac is divided according to the position of constellations of stars in the sky , and so it is a fixed map projected on space . This difference between measuring by space (sidereal) or by the timing of the seasons (tropical) is often used as an argument to denounce astrology by people who fail to understand that astrology does not attribute characteristics or events to the so called influence of the stars . Modern astronomers claim that the tropical zodiac is inaccurate because it does not match the constellations of the stars that span the ecliptic and that have the same names as the zodiac signs; Aries , Taurus , Gemini ect . Furthermore , astronomers claim that a missing constellation , Ophicus , should be in the zodiac because it appears to be located between the constellations of Scorpio and Sagittarius . In reality , not all the constellations , such as Aries and Gemini , are fully within 18-degree span of the ecliptic , which forms the zodiac wheel . So it could be said there are too many signs in the tropical zodiac .

The constellation , or sidereal , zodiac answers some of these complaints of astronomers . In this system , each of the constellations , as viewed through the imaginary celestial sphere , occupies a different amount of space . Hence the division of the constellation zodiac are unequal , unlike those of the tropical zodiac . If the constellation Ophicus were included , there would be 13 divisions , unlike the 12 of the tropical zodiac ."








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Angelus
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00:26:00 Jan 17 2011
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funny.. had my chart done a few years ago..
pisces descendant, virgo rising.. amma scorpio.. an, I was told 2010-2011 was a year of great change for me...

didn't think they meant this.. "Hmmmm..."

still don't.



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TwilightRayvn
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05:47:59 Jan 17 2011
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Well I know this 'change' made me upset at first because I've always been a Libra (hell I have a Libra tattoo on my left ankle). Though I was supposed to be born under the Scorpio sign (under the so called 'old' ways) since I was early. I've found a lot of my traits fit between Libra and Scorpio. But when this 'new' way came into place, it made me a Virgo. I was curious and started looking up some of the traits that a Virgo has and I've found that quite a few traits fit me there too. Hmmm....so it's like all three: Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio kind of fit me. Weird. I mean under the 'new' way, I'd have been a Libra with the new date shifts with the day I was supposed to be born. So the new one I'd be Virgo/Libra and old one Libra/Scorpio. *chuckles* Three in one. Double weird.



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Xzavier
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07:00:03 Jan 17 2011
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TR - Don't forget these "new" changes are in reality the way things should have been all along since the zodiac was arbitrarily changed. It's only been 2,000 years that we've had 12 signs, before then in various astrological traditions there were 13 and now there's 13 so we're back to how things shoulda been to begin with.

As for the 3 in 1 traits. I was a Sag and now I'm an Oph. (I hate that word! lol) and most of the traits of the 2 fit me pretty well too. It would seem that traits of the surrounding signs fit a person. To me it just means that overall astrology is vague and that for 50% of folks it fits them and for 50% it doesn't. So really it's less a real thing and more just something fun to look at. If you happen to fit some astrological stuff then great but it doesn't mean that the stars govern you, it just means it's a cool coincidence.

I mean if most of the traits people can have are split up into 13 groups then there's going to be a whole lot of people that will fit into those traits attributed to a specific zodiac, mathematically that's just how it is.



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ArthurVolts
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15:37:00 Jan 17 2011
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Its bullshit.

Just because a group of people decide something needs to be changed, doesn't mean that an energetic tradition such as the zodiak, dating back thousands of years is justified.

I wouldn't bet on any of the "old school" believers in energy and our connection to the stars/sun etc buying into any of this shit.



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ArthurVolts
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15:39:09 Jan 17 2011
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Even though I've read on this, I'm still not convinced it is right THOUGH I DO see a connection with this and the "lost tribe of Israel".

End times prophecy and it fits the bill.



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Angelus
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16:21:30 Jan 17 2011
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lost tribes of what???
aw c'mon... you going to talk of that in connection with Astrology?

thankfully, the two .. as yet.. have NO connection.



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ArthurVolts
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16:52:38 Jan 17 2011
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No familiar with the 12 tribes of Israel and the supposed lost one that is found on the doorstep of the end times?

Just because you aren't familiar with our ancient ancestry and just because you may not have the wit to connect the dots in front of you, doesn't mean that they aren't there.

The greatest detectives will tell you that they don't believe in coincidence.



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Angelus
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17:56:05 Jan 17 2011
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whilst I know of the Bible, I know little of the Apochrapal Bible, tho I know it exiists and know none of it was written at the time.. and neither was the koran..

old testament, new.. all stories, for the ignorant.



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ArthurVolts
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18:25:18 Jan 17 2011
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Taking it word for word would be a silly thing to do, but knowledge and history are hidden in plain sight.

There is truth there, like in any history book of the modern age which is changed and adapted/perverted/mis-read over time.

It would be just as ignorant to ignore an ancient text such as many biblical incarnations.

No doubt that jesus was a crock, but the creator is something beyond the babble of the priest class.
Something that is and ever will be.

Alpha and Omega.

Though I give it respect, the creator abandoned his creation and there will be a reckoning with his name on it.



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Xzavier
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23:59:01 Jan 17 2011
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You really need to watch your words. Bashing any religion is forbidden in the forums.

As for the "new" change again and for the LAST time. Read what I've said please!

The 13th sign is NOT new. It predates the astrology that is used today. 2,500 years there was a 13th sign, 1,800 years ago there were 12 signs. Why? Because a FEW astrologists in a branch of astrology (there are different forms of astrology as you should know) decided that 12 looked better than 13.

The astrology you're defending is wrong. It just so happens that science is backing it up. Don't forget the zodiac wasn't created for astrology it was created as a way to tell time, seasons apart etc...it was in a sense a very old form of science. Astrology came AFTER the zodiacs creation as a way of governing or describing human behaviour.

The 13th sign was kicked out. It is real, it has existed for longer than your "ancient traditions". It's more ancient than your ancient, it's not new, get it in your heads already haha



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Angelus
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00:05:47 Jan 18 2011
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so real this is the first time I've heard of it: aah, sorry, three years ago was.. I can only assume from that riposte that someone is a Christian.. I am not, nor do I follow any formalized religion whatsoever. And as to breaking TOS, do re-read that post, it referred to an unenlightened people and their explanations for that which had none.

sheesh, may I should have said, unenlightened then.. instead of ignorant.

I'm not always as pedantic as people say.



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Angelus
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00:41:46 Jan 18 2011
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But, I am open to correction and, an admission of guilt, on occasion.

It seems - I misread a post then and, I'd like to apologize to Xzavier... publicly.



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Nekirena
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09:34:31 Jan 20 2011
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Whether or not how a religion came into play on this-

I was merely asking thoughts/opinions/views about what others thought of this- since a lot of people who are not familiar with Astrology or it's origins could see others, who are more knowledgeable on the subject, could give their insights and thoughts and insights on it.

I have seen many debates on it, many explanations and may different views on it. On the Rave and in other areas of the news, sites, and on the telly.

In no way was this thread meant to bash anyone or any religion, if that is the case with someone's post in this thread- have some dignity and leave and don't bother to comment.

I wanted this thread to be merely a reflection of what others had to say and or share on the topic. Whether you know a lot about the subject or not. This thread is not to bash down people's opinions or thoughts- or even in this case- religions.

Anyways-

My question is this:

A lot of people, Astrologist and what have yous, have known about the 13th sign, as stated in above posts, but have not felt comfortable about stating the 13th sign and that it would fit in. The Earth as changed, as everything does, as well as it's orbit, why do you think they waited so long to "announce publicly" the 13th sign now as opposed to earlier?



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Nekirena
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09:46:56 Jan 20 2011
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Also-

A few people have noted that the effect only happened after:
2009,
2010
and...
2011.

As well as a few noting they saw it in articles and what nots-

Could you post those links for others to see as well?

I am not saying you are wrong or right in the matter- but humor me if you will, and share where you received the information you are stating. :)

Thanks in advance...



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Angelus
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16:27:43 Jan 20 2011
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I have a lot of respect for Jonathan Cainer, an English Astrologer...

he does not rate this 13th sign, from what I see.

http://www.cainer.com/features/ophiuchus/ophiuchus.html

I hope this may be of use!?!



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Angelus
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16:45:14 Jan 20 2011
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"For those who aren't ofey with cut 'n paste, here is the article..."


Ophiuchus; 13th sign, Umpteenth time.
Every so often in this space, I address big questions. One regular is a variation on the following theme. "My husband/brother/teacher says astrology is rubbish because the earth has moved since the time of the ancient Greeks. So when you astrologers say Jupiter is in Aries, it's actually in the constellation of Pisces... as you can see if you look at the sky.' I always reply that the signs are deliberately different to the constellations. Today, in the light of all this nonsense about a new zodiac sign, I'd like to say a lot more.

There has, indeed, been a 'heavenly shift' since the time of the ancient Greeks. It is due to a phenomenon called the precession of the equinoxes. This is also the reason why every few thousand years, we get a new pole star. We astrologers have known all about this for ages. That's precisely why we decided, long ago, not to use constellations for our predictive work. They're unreliable and unequal. There are arguments over where they each begin and end. Plus, over time, they change. We needed some different way to measure the sky so we created twelve, exactly equal, mathematical divisions of the ecliptic. As the ecliptic is the path that the sun seems to follow through the sky, with the constellations behind it, we named each of our signs after one of those constellations.

Are you with me so far? I do hope so. I really need you to follow me... because I'm desperate to explain something important. So desperate that I don't entirely trust my own ability to speak calmly.

I've just spent my weekend fielding phone calls from journalists who have been fed a cock and bull story about a 13th Zodiac Sign. It was given to them by a bunch of astronomers with a mission to make mischief. Rather than doubt a word of it, my fellow professionals (or at least some of them) immediately deferred to the 'scientific authority' of those stargazers. They then passed on the news through a million newspaper articles, blogs, tweets and even Youtube videos.

The result, for me, has been an endless stream of ridiculous questions. "So Mr Cainer, what will you tell your readers now that scientists have proved that there's a new zodiac sign and that the other signs now have different dates?"

When I tell them that I won't be saying anything different because nothing has changed, they sound a bit disappointed. Some even suspect I may be hiding my head in the sand. But I'm honestly not in a state of denial. I'm in a state of despairing disbelief!

The worst of it is, I've been here before. Twice. Back in the mid nineties, a different astronomer tried exactly the same trick to get themselves some fame and discredit astrology. And quite early in my professional career, when I was so young, I still had hair, I had to help put out yet another Ophiuchus fire. I cannot tell you how ancient it makes me feel to be dealing with the re-emergence of this old chestnut.

Anyway, let's return to the explanation. Several paragraphs ago, I explained that my predecessors named their twelve zodiac signs after the twelve constellations. This was entirely deliberate. They always knew, full well, that the signs and constellations would drift ever further apart over time. But they were happy enough to have set up a self-calibrating, permanently accurate set of zodiac signs, aligned to the equinoxes. And, for all their powers of prophecy, they never foresaw that one day, this would produce a whole new set of problems for a whole new generation of astrologers.

To the ancient Greeks, and the Babylonians before them, there was no separation between astronomy and astrology. The two subjects were one. In studying the sky, you would automatically read symbolic meaning into it. You needed to study the sky to a high standard because you needed to make the best possible predictions. Actually, this didn't change until surprisingly recently; the latter half of the 18th century, in fact. The great names in modern astronomy, like Galileo, Kepler, Copernicus and even Newton were just as interested in mystic interpretations as in measuring planetary orbits.

These great astronomers knew perfectly well about the 'two different zodiacs'. They fully understood that you did your astrology with the mathematically equal divisions and that the constellations were for decorative purposes only. They also knew, perfectly well, that those constellations didn't match up with the equal zodiac signs. The 'drift' had begun to happen long before.

This begs a very big question. If Newton 'got it' and Galileo knew all about it, why was it such news to the Minnesota astronomers who planted the story in the papers late last week? What compelled them to declare a thirteenth sign called Ophiuchus and then issue fresh dates for the twelve zodiac signs as a result of their "research?"

Could they really be so ignorant? Or were they, perhaps, determined to stir up as much publicity for themselves as possible no matter how many unfair aspersions this might cast on traditional astrology?

The sad, sorry answer is that their agenda was entirely aggressive. The schism between astrology and astronomy has grown in the last couple of hundred years, from a skirmish to an all out battle. Although so far, all the attacks have come from one side.

The astronomers have declared war on the astrologers. The astrologers, they feel, deserve it, purely by their very existence. How dare they believe what they believe? What right have astrologers to infer meaning into the movements of the planets when astronomers see no such mystic information and must content themselves only with measurements of orbit, rotation and chemical formation?

Ironically, the astronomers' justification for their anger with astrologers sounds much like an accusation of heresy. The astronomers believe one thing. The astrologers believe another. And while the astrologers are happy to respect the astronomers' right to believe what they want to believe, the astronomers will seemingly not be happy till every last astrologer has been unceremoniously debunked.

Fuelling this attitude is, of course, one very earthly factor. There's not much money in astronomy. You're likely, if you're studying space for a living, to be on a meagre academic grant. But some astrologers (only some, we must stress) make a good living from their practice. It must be galling for the astronomers to feel that their astrological cousins know far less yet are rewarded far more highly. Galling it may be. But then, they are perfectly free to return home to the realm of mysticism, aren't they? Well, oddly enough, they're not. We astrologers would welcome them into our communities with open arms. But peer pressure amongst astronomers is a formidable force. Across the scientific community there's a loathing and detestation of astrology, along with all other forms of semi-mystical activity, from telepathy to homeopathy.

This shocking culture of bigotry means that if any researcher, no matter how respectable, at any university, no matter how progressive were to conduct a study of any esoteric activity... and was to conclude that there might be 'something in it after all', no matter how small, they would not be met with the applause of their contemporaries. Instead, they could expect to be rubbished in public, subjected to ridicule and put at the very bottom of the pile when it came to dividing up next year's grant money.

So the astronomers don't like astrologers. And in fairness, astrologers are not always their own best friends, either. Each time, for example, you visit a horoscope website and see a picture of a zodiac sign made out of a kind of 'join the dots' image of heavenly stars, you're entering the territory of someone who is being, at best, a bit unthinking. Either they genuinely don't know that the constellations are not the same as the zodiac signs they work with... or they do but they're letting their art department get the better of them. Just to complicate the matter a bit more, there are some Indian astrologers, practising what they call Vedic astrology... and some genuine, knowledgeable people who have chosen to work as 'Sidereal astrologers', using visual astronomy... and these astrologers actually DO use the constellations. Which means they do use different dates. And, of course, they read the sky a little differently in much the same way, perhaps, as a musician might play a sitar differently to a guitar. Even they though, don't use an extra zodiac sign called Ophiuchus, or anything else.

The astronomers from Minnesota, who planted this mish mash of malicious misinformation into the press late last week, must now be rubbing their hands together with glee. But they've done their cause no real favours and they've done astrology no great harm.

The fact remains that the zodiac is right, exactly the way it is. There is no new sign, there are no new dates... and sadly I predict that in 15 years or so, just when everyone has forgotten all this, some other smart alec astronomer will set out to cause the same trouble, all over again





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Xzavier
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01:21:20 Jan 21 2011
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NM - The zodiac serves 2 functions, one real/pre- modern science based and the other astrology. The real function predates astrology by many tens of thousands of years and that being dividing up the sky for use as a calender and to help tell seasons apart, crop planting etc.

It was actually astronomers (scientists) who announced that the official zodiac in the sky, sky charts, etc will be changed to include the 13th sign because reality and the everlasting universe says that "hey the sky has 13 main constellations (signs) and we need to reflect that).
So now that science has said there's a 13th sign, in order to maintain some sense of validity, astrologers have begun to incorporate the change.

Of course any good astrologist would have included Ophiuchus in their charts, readings etc for the past couple hundred years at least. Ohp. has kinda been on the cusp of things for a long while but now due to the 'wobble' of the earth it's pretty obvious that we've got 13, perhaps more so than in the past.



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Xzavier
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01:40:44 Jan 21 2011
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In response to the article. If astrology is so correct and a real thing then why the need to:

"We needed some different way to measure the sky so we created twelve...signs" ???

Your guy plainly states that they were created, and fairly arbitrarily at that, all to maintain the pretty mathematical equality of the number 12. Although in some Eastern traditions 13 is the better number.

Also the reason there was so much debate over when and where and how the stars moved was because they didn't have basic computer programmes 1,800 years ago. However today you can take any zodiac star and plot its motion into the past, or future, for many thousands of years. So why not do that to help with their "accuracy" because it really is an easy thing to do.

What's funny is that not only does the Earth wobble and the position of the stars change but so does our entire solar system move. In x-thousand years the constellations in the sky won't even be visible, we'll have entirely new stars to look at. What happens to astrology then?

And by the way there are not 12 constellations there are 88, officially, with the 12, now 13, main ones being used for the zodiac.

To quote astronomers (who by admission of some astrologers ..the formation of the science of astronomy was borne out of the mythical traditions of astrology...which is a partially accurate history)

"The constellations are totally imaginary things that poets, farmers and astronomers have made up over the past 6,000 years (and probably even more!)"

http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/constellations/extra/constellations.html

So since the zodiac is imaginary, since every star in the sky will one day be in a totally different position and many will go away all together, and since there are many millions of people who the astrological traits don't fit, why on earth would this be something to worry about? It's little more than a very old tradition that's neat to look at and play with. The same that even today every time I open a new bottle of wine I take a little a pour it on the ground to pay respects to the god Dionysus....a totally mythological being but it's something out of tradition and fun to do.



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Angelus
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01:40:51 Jan 21 2011
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With respect Sir **sratches head**

... in the UK Jonathan Cainer is one of the most well-known Astrologers and of good repute, if he says it's Tosh, I believe him.

and, this thread was about divinity, through astrology, not astronomy, wasn't it?

hence the post.. hence the research, to back up, all I have attested to.



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Angelus
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01:43:20 Jan 21 2011
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and Sir, as to your latter questions, may I refer you to his website and, all your questions will be answered.

none of your doubts about Astrology are new.



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Xzavier
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02:07:07 Jan 21 2011
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It's about astrology and the changes brought about by astronomy...so everything I've said is most relevant to the thread.

I find it interesting that you'd believe anything this guy says blindly and yet you call religious folks ignorant. Strange.

I don't care how respected someone is it doesn't make them right. Hitler, Stalin, Miss Cleo, Ted Haggard etc were all respected in their times by their own people.

I know my questions/doubts about astrology aren't new but I'm asking you, a defender of it, to provide some actual proof it's real. This is a convo not a "go read this & then you'll see the light" type of deal.

In order for an answer to be found to "could this effect us in all ways" we must first determine that

A) Is astrology something with the capacity to affect us in any way at all and thus does the thread question even bare asking. (basically is the question the same as "Is the Earth flat" or "Can life exist on other planets", one is a valid question the other is not.)

and B) If astrology is a valid science or law of the universe (if it works and it's studied then that makes it a science) then why or why doesn't the arbitrary nature of the zodiac change us?

Then we can answer the topic question.



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Deliciousness
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02:22:03 Jan 21 2011
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my opinion is if there was always 13 stars/ signs they might have dropped the 13th one cause they believed the number 13 is bad luck so they changed the dates of the remaining 12



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Angelus
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12:59:50 Jan 21 2011
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oh dear.. I did not infer 'all religious folks' are ignorant.

when I made that remark, it was to illustrate that man needed an expalnation for stuff he had no conception of, so the books came into existence...

I would not demean anyone for religious belief's.

Heck, I almost envy them, sometimes.

But, the books have nish all to do with Astronemy and as for believing him blindly, isn't that what followers of the books do?

As for me, I have followed Cainer's work now for almost thirty years and of all the Astrologers I've encountered, he makes sense: and, his stuff just sits well with other research I've done and stuff I've learnt.

But, I respect your faith...

Don't understand it.. tho I've read up on all the modern faiths and, some of the old, I cannot see how any of them have anything to do with Astrology, which is a man-made form of divinity, that I'm sure many faiths would not approve of.. But Heck.. it's something I do firmly believe holds answers, for me.

That is why I maintain that Jonathan Cainer has enough answers, for me.

Respectfully, Angelus



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Xzavier
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23:04:29 Jan 21 2011
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Well from a scientific standpoint (the thing that gave us tv, the internet, cars, medicine, green technology etc) I have yet to see a single piece of evidence that shows astrology is anything more than a pseudoscience and if anyone has proof that astrology is real then they might want to tell us about it.

As for Jonathan, I went to his site but couldn't really find much of anything beyond trying to sell stuff and his predictions. Could you provide some links directly to anything of his that gives facts & evidences?



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Angelus
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00:39:02 Jan 22 2011
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much as I respect you and your beliefs.. your skepticism is most apparent: and, much as I don't believe in an all powerful deity.. you choose not to believe in Astrology.

and, I respect your choice.

I add one codice... I do not seek evidence of an all powerful deity, in which I personally have no belief, why on Earth would someone seek evidence in something they believe has no foundation?

I do though: I have belief in Astrology, which has stood me in far greater stead than any of the religions that my Life has thrown me in the midst of.


And, having presented my 'evidence' of a lack of a 13th sign, should I ask for evidence of ... ?? No.

I genulflex, to those who have belief & I have my own.



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Angelus
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00:40:30 Jan 22 2011
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"dropped the 13th sign??!!" WAH!

Did someone not read my loooooong post?



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Xzavier
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01:41:56 Jan 22 2011
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So you're not going to give me any links by Jonathan that would answer my questions? Thanks

As for the post you copy/pasted (without a link which is against TOS btw) it doesn't prove anything. It gives no actual evidence that there's no 13th sign. It existed BEFORE modern western astrology, get it through your head.

I believe in an all powerful deity because I have enough evidence to at least provide for the possibility of such a being. You haven't given any evidence at all in astrology.

If you believe in something you should at least be able to give some evidence of it, which you haven't. I on the other hand have given a good amount of proof against astrology.

So until you or someone else shows some actual facts backed up by history and science I'll keep with my belief (and the majority) that astrology is not real and I'll leave you with a final thought bc I'm tired of repeating myself using logic & reason and only getting "well it's real bc I think it is".

~~
Xzavier:
Well like I said in the thread if you take all the primary traits of people and divide them up into 12-13 "signs" then obviously you're going to get a lot of people which fit those.

I know of just as many ppl who's signs & traits fit them as ppl that it doesn't. And a 50% accuracy doesn't make something real it just means it fell under "mathematic probability". If I make 1,000 predictions 1 at least is going to come true. That doesn't make me a prophet it just means probability works lol

Personally both sag & oph (my old & new signs) fit me around 85% but that doesn't mean the reason why I'm the type of person I am is bc of the stars. And if anything, if multiple signs fit a person then to me it just goes back to probability & vagueness...know what I mean?


_____ wrote:

Yeah,I kinda like the idea of it? But Im not real convinced it anything really.Other than to mark time and charter in the old days.

On 00:03:11 Jan 22 2011 (-0 GMT) Xzavier wrote:

Oh I def love the idea of it. I mean how cool would that be? lol But sadly the reality is far more different and the stars & planets have about as much effect on us as a gummy bear does lol

I just finished reading an article on it actually and this one guy was saying that bc some planets interact with earths mag. field that perhaps the planets can interfere with the development of babies and cause them to be certain ways. Well, a power line has more than twice the mag. field of the earth so any effects the planets might have are less than that of everyday items. There was also a study done of 2,000 people all born within minutes of each other, they found no similarities between them and their personalities.

An observed correlation does not equal cause and effect. It's a logical fallacy known as "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (Latin for: with this, therefore because of this). Basically it's the same as saying "A new man came into town yesterday and today I got sick, thus the man made me sick". Just bc there seems to be a connection in reality there's really no evidence of such a connection.

~~~



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Nekirena
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04:17:51 Jan 22 2011
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All I could find on Jonathan Cainer was his readings. I Googled his name as well as other things to see if they came up... I didn't find anything.

Is there a link to your article? I am merely curious as to where he stated that information- inquiring minds would like to know. :)



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Xzavier
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06:42:18 Jan 22 2011
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Sure,

http://meta-religion.com/Paranormale/Other/is_astrology_real.htm

An interesting site (by the guy who did the 2000 person study mentioned in the article I mentioned above) that has a huge list of facts is http://www.astrology-and-science.com/hpage.htm



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Nekirena
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06:44:45 Jan 22 2011
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Thanks. :)



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Oceanne
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13:27:35 Jan 22 2011
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Just thought I could bring this over....

"The zodiac isn't wrong. Your sign isn't changing. Ignore the misinformation", thundered astrologer Rob Brezny.

“Every year or so, another astronomer erupts into the mainstream media with a portentous announcement about how, due to the precession of the equinoxes, the astrological signs are no longer aligned with the actual
constellations," he wrote in his website.

Kunkle, who is a board member of the Minnesota Planetarium Society, said in an interview that the Earth's position has changed vis-a-vis the Sun in the last 3,000 years when astrological signs were first allocated and there is a new sign called Ophiuchus which dictates the course of many events.

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"Because of this change of tilt, the Earth is really over here in effect and Sun is in a different constellation than it was 3,000 years ago."

Ripping apart the assertion of Parke Kunkle and many others of his ilk that astrology is invalid, Brezny challenges his adversaries to spend some time to really study basics of astrology. Those who are questioning the foundations of astrology should at least learn it well enough to know what they're talking about, lampoons Brezney, who runs Free Will Astrology.

Astrological signs do not line up with the constellations in the same way they did way back then, due to the precession of the equinoxes, he admits, but says this is irrelevant to modern astrologers.

"Modern Western astrologers understand this perfectly. It 's irrelevant to their work because the information upon which they base their hypotheses does not involve a study of distant stars or constellations. Rather, their data have to do with the movements of the planets in our own solar system within a zone of influence defined by the relationship between the Earth and Sun."

He picks out Kunkle's theory that there is no physical connection between constellations and personality traits, saying, and rebuts it by saying that astrologers do not deal with constellations.

"Western astrologers don't work with stars or constellations. Their focus is our solar system. They study the patterns of the planets and the moon as they pass through 12 zones defined by the relationship between the Earth and sun. Those zones have the same names as constellations because of a historical quirk, but they are unrelated to the constellations."

Eric Francis, a New York-based astrologer and scholar, says the latest debate is another smear on the science of astrology. He says Kunkle's revelations have no significance for the work of that for western astrologers, who use the tropical zodiac unlike the Vedic astrologers who use the sidereal zodiac.

"There are two zodiacs in common use. Kunkle is describing what is called the sidereal zodiac: the backdrop of the stars. It’s not the zodiac used by most Western astrologers; it’s the one used by Vedic astrologers, the kind in India, and a few in our part of the world. The two zodiacs are offset by about 23 degrees."

He ridicules Kunkle's assertion that astrologers have got it wrong as the Earth’s position in relation to the sun has changed. "Either this is a joke or Parke Kunkle is truly ignorant of his own science. It’s probably a bit of both," he wrote in an article in Planetwaves.

"Here in the West, we use a zodiac that follows the seasons. It’s called the tropical zodiac. It’s based on the position of the Sun’s rays and the tropics — that’s why it’s called tropical. There is another one, based on the positions of the stars. It’s called the sidereal zodiac. If Kunkle doesn’t know this, it’s like a race car driver not understanding the concept of a tire."

And what is his take on the 'new' zodiac sign Ophiuchus that has set the Internet on fire? It's an old hoax originating from a science fiction novel, he says.

"This is an old hoax. Historically, Ophiuchus has never been listed as a constellation in the sidereal zodiac. It is a constellation out there, but it’s off the ecliptic (that is, it’s not along the path of the Sun through the sky). I’ve read that Ptolemy mentions it in his literature as an off-zodiac constellation, meaning that the Sun never travels through it. In any event, there are some two dozen constellations that touch the ecliptic; but the sidereal zodiac uses just 12 of them.”



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Oceanne
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13:50:14 Jan 22 2011
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Also...if yo0u use this search string,you will find a lot of different info on this subject...



unearthed in Qarat el-Muzawwaqa, Egypt




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Oceanne
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13:55:26 Jan 22 2011
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Damn..forgot the link to that article.Here you go.

http://www.borneo.web.id/article/qarat-el-muzawwaqa-ancient-roman-zodiac.html


I personally do not believe in Horoscopes although I do believe that people seem to have traits their signs attribute to them.Yet,on the other hand that hasnt been proven at all.

~Shrugs~



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Oceanne
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16:14:27 Jan 22 2011
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The more I do look into this subject,I find that there are quite a few different Zodiacs.



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Angelus
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00:33:24 Jan 23 2011
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seems people missed the earlier post...

http://www.cainer.com/features/ophiuchus/ophiuchus.html



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Xzavier
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00:37:54 Jan 23 2011
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And I've read it but that doesn't answer anything. It gives an opinion about 1 single thing but not any of the other issues I've raised.

It also plainly states that the zodiac used by astrologist was created by them which means it's invented, not something laid down by the universe as a reality.

And if as some have suggested astrology is only based on the planets then a) whats the point of having zodiac signs and b) what about the multi-proven fact that everyday items have more of an effect on people than do the planets?

Give me numbers, facts, not opinions.

If the only article you've got is that one then you've fallen short of defending astrology to anyone who uses reason & logic.



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Xzavier
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00:41:57 Jan 23 2011
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And half of that article actually has nothing to with anything it's just an attack on astronomy and science and he goes out of his way to wage personal vengeance on the well established, fact based, field of astronomy.

He has a grudge and makes no bones about it. But venting his anger and obvious bias doesn't answer any questions, if anything it raises more.



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AsphaltTears
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01:36:11 Jan 23 2011
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Oceanne is correct and this only deals with Sidereal astrology and people are bickering about it to some degree. This is another article about it. I don't think I saw this one posted. Sorry for not reading in complete detail. I have this posted in my Journal which only goes to show how few read it, lol. It is also in my Coven.

Has Your Horoscope Changed?.

By Claudine Zap

Fans of the Zodiac have been bombarded with the unsettling news that their astrological sign may not be what they thought.

The horror of switching from Gemini to Taurus had people rushing to the Web for answers, sending searches for "zodiac signs" into the stratosphere.

So has your sign changed? Probably not. But it all depends on what kind of astrology you follow. Let us explain.

It may come as a surprise that there are different branches of astrology. A main Eastern form, for example, called Sidereal astrology, looks to the background stars, those famous constellations, as its guide.

Western astrology -- which uses the zodiac -- has its signs fixed to the seasons. Most Westerners, and all those horoscope pages we eagerly check, go by the zodiac. These signs follow what early astrologers called star signs, whose reference points are the tropics that form a ring around the earth. The zodiac is based on our relationship to the sun, not the stars.

The back story: About 2,000 years ago, the astrological signs and the astronomical ones were the same. But not anymore. The locations of the signs are based on the sun's location on the first day of spring. That location in the sky has slowly drifted westward because of something called "precession" -- the earth continually wobbles (a scientific term for a slight motion) every 26,000 years. Since the constellations were first identified, they have shifted some 30 degrees. Translation: The signs have slipped about a month westward, relative to the stars.

What this means to you: If you follow astrology that is linked to the constellations, your sign would go from say, a Gemini to a Taurus. You could even have a 13th sign, Ophiuchus, which you may have read about.

"It's a huge point of confusion for the public," says Bing Quock, assistant director of Morrison Planetarium at the California Academy of Sciences. For those who follow Western astrology, "astrologers are not talking about the constellations at all. When an astrologer says the sun is in a certain sign, they're talking about the sign, the location relative to the equinox. They're not talking about the location of the constellations. "

In short, if you follow the Sidereal astrology, the Eastern branch, your sign may have shifted. (And most likely, no surprise to you at all: This news is hundreds of years old).

But for the rest of us, our horoscope, and our signs, are still the same.

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/life/has-your-horoscope-changed-2439951/



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Angelus
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01:38:23 Jan 23 2011
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You're reading, but not. How sad. I pity your lack of belief in another point of view: though I do respect your right to be wrong and continue to question.



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Xzavier
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01:45:33 Jan 23 2011
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All I asked for was proof that astrology was real. You didn't give any so why should I believe? On the other hand I have mountains of evidence pointing that astrology is NOT real. I don't know about you but I like to be sane and not put my faith in things with zero possibility in the real world.

I have faith but not blind faith, even my own religious views contain evidences.

If this were a high school debate class you'd fail lol.

If I'm so blind then help me see but something tells me you either wont or can't.



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AsphaltTears
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02:01:06 Jan 23 2011
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Here is a bit on Cainer: (there are a slew of articles about him online)

Jonathan Cainer (born 18 December 1957 in Central London, England) is a British sun-sign astrologer who writes a daily column on his website, which is reproduced in Daily Telegraph and Herald Sun newspapers in Australia and the Daily Mail newspaper in Britain, in addition to a variety of Internet sites in five or so different languages, including Japanese. He has also written for the (British) Daily Express and Daily Mirror newspapers. His website includes (among other things) daily and weekly predictions, contributions by other writers, and more recently, the weekly predictions for the first Saturday in each month include an overview of the coming month.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Cainer

Besides saying Western Astrology, most learn Geocentric Astrology and that is what I was taught and when they didn't have computers. It takes a lot of mathematical computations. You do have help guides but it wasn't something you did at the snap of your fingers. Here is an excerpt:

"In a geocentric view of the solar system, astrologers make the modification of placing the earth at the center of the solar system. This modification is based on the understanding that if a person, event, or thing is to be analyzed through astrology, that entity must be placed at the center of the universe. This thinking comes at odds with scientific thinking, and in essence, represents the split between modern astronomy and astrology. Astronomers cannot accept the earth as the center of the solar system and so dismiss astrology as nonsense. Astrologers, of course, don't really believe the earth is the center of the solar system but only place it there for purposes of chart analysis. Hypothetically speaking, if one wanted to draw a chart for a creature who lived on Mars, then Mars would be designated at the center of the solar system."

This is what most know and is very different from Sidereal which probably has subsets as well. I never learned that one so I really don't know. You can read more here: http://www.jon-stevens.com/articles/what-is-astrology.php

It appears that it was an astronomer that started all the hoopla that has been escalated by the media. Ignore it.



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Xzavier
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02:18:37 Jan 23 2011
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AT - Thanks for the additional info.

The thing is however is there are TWO types of Zodiac, the one used in numerous forms of astrology AND the one the pre-dates astrology by thousands of years. That Zodiac is used to divide the seasons and months, it had real practical use.

Now even though NONE of the Constellations are real (they're all imaginary) people of science still use them to help us find various stars and systems and their relation to one another. Landmarks basically.

It doesn't matter what astrology says, the fact is there has been for many years and will continue to be an additional 13th Zodiac sign/constellation for all intents and purposes with regards to astronomy and seasonal divisions.

Astronomers have simply decided that now would be a good time to make sky maps and charts reflect the reality that is in the stars. Ophiuchus was here 2,200 years ago and it's here now.

As for astrology it would be really nice if anyone on here could give a bit of evidence showing that it's a real force and that the comings and goings of humans are directed or affected in anyway by the stars, planets etc.



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Cabrion
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07:24:43 Jan 23 2011
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You guys got all 'science-y' on me.
my attention deficit doesn't allow me to keep up with you, but from my simple perspectives.. it's bs, and will possibly cause some more doubt in the realm of astrology



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Cartomancer
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07:33:32 Jan 23 2011
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Not that everyone is going to read this... but your zodiac hasn't changed. As I read this article, it seemed simple enough to me:

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/13/no-your-zodiac-sign-hasnt-changed/

Most of us go by the tropical zodiac which is determined by seasons- our signs have not 'changed'. Tropical zodiac stays the same- 'sidereal zodiac' has changed. No need to get your zodiac tattoos changed, no need to argue. They have not changed for the tropical zodiac, the one we refer to in the 'West'. No, not everyone in the world uses this unchanged tropical zodiac... but if you're a Westerner, chances are you do.

Real Vampires love Vampire Rave


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Nekirena
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07:44:38 Jan 23 2011
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thank you Images :)



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Cartomancer
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08:02:18 Jan 23 2011
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No prob :D

And if you are one of the few Westerners that go by the sidereal zodiac and hate this change, simply hop on board with us tropical folk. Problem solved ;)

*And thanks to Abstract for giving me that link. I heard this was the case, but was having trouble finding it*



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Foreverseeking2
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18:36:15 Jan 24 2011
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They can change anything they wish and call me a purple unicorn if they want! I was born a Taurus , my characteristics are Taurus,..... I am Taurus and will remain so!

........and to those who felt the need for this change, Feel my horns as they are shoved up your southern posterior!

THAT is what I think about it so bite me!



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Cartomancer
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03:47:27 Jan 25 2011
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Zodiac has never been my personal truth, however- I have always liked it. I don't read my daily horoscope... but I do believe 'what is Libra' is spot on for me. The description of a Libra isn't just general stuff in my life, but the things that really do describe my most noted characteristics. Not stuff that necessarily applies to everyone else. Daily 'readings' are a different story- and with all the quacks out there, I never put stock into that. There are gifted people in this world, but in this day and age there are so many claiming the gifts that 'gifted' should no longer be the word... it should be 'normal', just like everyone else.

I wouldn't have changed as a person no matter how many times a Zodiac changed- but even so... there's something about that tropical zodiac that has been resonating with people for so long. I won't scoff at it because of that.

I love the stars, I love mythology. I respect the old stories, and even learn from them. Call me crazy, I really don't care ;) But since I appreciate a respect for my own spiritual belief system, I am going to give that same respect to others.



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bobbylee
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11:05:17 Jan 26 2011
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i dunno what to think... i mean all of it could be wrong whos to say right?.. it really doesnt affect life itself any lol well not to many anyways!

VIRGO!!!!!



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Angelus
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16:02:41 Jan 27 2011
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I'm a Scorpio, by nature and birth!

**Grins widely**



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MooniePie
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16:10:46 Jan 27 2011
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Angelus,

I've deleted the same post from you numerous times. That post is frivolous. No one is asking you to just tell what sign you are, the point of the thread is for people to input their information as to why it could effect us all in many ways. Not to just randomly post what sign they are.



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Sorvena
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17:50:25 Jan 27 2011
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The 13th Zodiac, the snake holder, has to do with the alignment taking place in 2012 supposedly. The zodiac of Dendera, located at the The Temple of Hathor , if you were to look up at the ceiling, was to align all of the stars exactly above. Whenever the sun is aligned directly into the middle of this dark mass....it is said to determine the destiny or fate of mankind.



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catseye
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13:17:02 Feb 01 2011
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if you moved to another star system would your astrology chart work anymore?



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venumstings
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15:09:04 Feb 01 2011
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Can anyone tell about me...
birth date
saturday 7th october 1967 3.15 hours.
Place: jhunjhunu (rajasthan) (India)

I wish to know my position...

I always thought that the astrology very less impact on our life though astrology is pure mathematics of zodiac and stars. But my conscious and intellact says that there is definitely any workout of effects behind astrology and surely the formation of zodiac and star system impact on us as we are pin in the thread of the universe which have spheres and orbits and magnetic fields criss-crossed. But to what extent, I dont know.

One day I was at my neighors home talking to him and his family ( that was sunday many a time we both family enjoys talking as family group, that day Anita my wife was incidentally working in her kitchen and not joined us coz we did not call her), one local guy from nearby building came and participated the talk. then suddenly he changed the topic telling us that yasterday and last 10 days he was on fasting to pray the goddess and goddess appeared to him in his dream and blessed with prediction power. We did not believe him, but to respect him, indirectly brother Bihari told him to tell the future of his wife. that mad guy told that Honorable Lady will be ill for whoel year and then she will die (actually brother Bihari and myself that time was talking on topic how illness troubled us in the past and we survived from that due to instantly went to go self or take the family member hospital or doctor clinic). Saying this false prediction that mad guy lost the respect from my mind. I immediately left brother Bihari's home and came upfloor to my home. That mad guy too came to my home immediately and started boldly pushing the subject of prediction though i told him that i dont believe in superstition. My wife anita got the subject to time pass and interested to know her future. He told her about her future and she started laughing that this good her future. then again that mad guy I dont want to take his name, started telling about the future of Honorable Bihari's Wife. This time I stopped him and fired a lot. after that I came to know that he was belong to superstitious family that always try to take advatage of superstition that God met them and blessed them etc etc. and they have other persons salvation and they were trying to spoil holy songs sung by good singers and trying to take lead in singing the lovesong in prayer of the God, though they were so boring that once tehy given chance that time whole crowd left that this much boring and so heavy loaded singing which destroy the songs they are not capable to hear. )



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jerrylovell03
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03:50:10 Feb 02 2011
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well what you going to do. it cant be help or changed but i wish they wouldnt of changed it its just not right



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venumstings
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05:37:13 Feb 02 2011
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That prediction from that guy proved false 3 years ago. But I can understand that he surely gave the pain to brother Bihari and his family.



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Angelus
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00:12:59 Feb 03 2011
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'they' modernised Tantra.. now, they modernise the Zodiac.. I proved my point, yet the debate continues..

why?



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FateUnseen
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07:00:51 Feb 03 2011
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Ok so I was told today that you arent switching your symbol if you were born before the year 2000, which i the majority if not all the members here where born before then.



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Soulshroude
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08:53:33 Feb 03 2011
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I think the world needs to quit reading into too much B.S. and actually realize that the Zodiac is not going to change any time soon. It has been laid out for centuries and will be the same for centuries to come.

For more information on a theory regarding this thread, please peruse my B.S. Report journal entry located here:

13 Zodiac theory debunking



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Angelus
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14:06:58 Feb 03 2011
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read it and smiled a lot.
I recall well the story of the Gurkha's.. a good analogy.

the path is yours, follow it as you will.



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Jesuis
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17:45:12 Feb 03 2011
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I've noticed that alot of comments on here are regarding Psychological Astrology - "my traits are based on what sign the Sun was in at the time of my birth".

Astrology was devised as a means of telling time. With telling time comes a form of prediction. It was focused and developed further to make predictions more accurate. It was never designed for determining a persons preferred lover. This is a much later development that came about during the Psychological Revolution of the late 19th century. Therefore, according to predictive astrology, the events in your life are a result of the timing in which you were born. If you can understand the concept of Light Cones, I assure you that last sentence makes sense.

Let's remember Angelus' point, that the actual signs are not used, and instead it is the mathematical computations related to the original signs - let's now consider that the real goal of science is to better predict human events and/or "prove" the existence of God (whatever your definition might be). Why else would we study string theory? Why else would we study quantum mechanics?

I'm not going to try and give a disertation on theoretical physics, quantum physics or astrophysics - mainly because I don't know anything about them. I could say that everything physicists say is a bunch of hooey because every time I ask them a question about a simple matter they have to go and complicate it with advanced mathematics, rules that only apply when this happens but don't when something else occurs, etc. etc. By the same token, I quite often see the same complaint coming from the side of many "scientists". If they can't understand the rules or details of how Astrology works, it is brushed off as too complicated and therefor ineffective or not "real".

To try and provide compelling evidence of why or how Astrology exists requires the one looking for the evidence to have an unbiased, basic and working understanding of it and it's history.

By the way - for anyone who says they have "evidence" that proves Astrology's effectiveness does NOT exist... You can not prove that something does not exist. In logic, the burden of proof lies squarely on the shoulders of the person claiming that it does indeed exist.



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Xzavier
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04:18:11 Feb 04 2011
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Eh you gave some info on one branch of astrology. You have yet to give any facts on the validity of it as anything more than pseudoscience or myth.



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venumstings
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11:00:00 Feb 06 2011
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But this is true that astrology is true and in religions and communities the occassions and rituals and functions are done as per astrology.

Even astrology can state the mindset or psychological behavior of that person.

But how? I dont know exactly. I do believe blindly on them. Coz that is mathematics and the results derived out of mathematical analysis.



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Magic25UK
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21:58:52 Feb 06 2011
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No, it will not effect my personality, I will still have the characteristics of my old sign, the new sign will be nothing like me at all, so am just going to stick with my original zodiac sign from birth.



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cadrewolf
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23:37:01 Feb 08 2011
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Will not effect me yet others who want to read prophies of their daily horoscope shall find it a burden. I pay no attention to the horoscope and it's false ideology.



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markus666
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02:00:35 Feb 09 2011
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Who knows. The new Zodiac was created as the old one by the intellectuals. My favorite book from my collection"Destined for Murder: Profiles of Six Serial Killers with Astrological Commentary by Sandra Harrison Young and Edna Rowland, which put emphasis in the concept that if Astrologers check the star when a baby is born, then, they can ping point a serial Killer. I do recommend this book to anyone interested in Serials Killers.



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Sorvena
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14:31:24 Feb 09 2011
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I'm with Dabbler on this one. It's meaningless statements to tag a sign on people. The 13th zodiac isn't something NEW at all. If one has done any REAL research would know that the zodiac is merely our ancestry's way of keeping tabs on our universe, the stars, moon and sun alignments etc etc. It has no bases for our "personalities".

The intention of the 13th is taught that on 2012, when the sun is aligned with a "dark mass", it is to determine the "fate of mankind". Simple as that.



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LoW
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Chateau Orleans (Coven) is a member of an Alliance

Member of Chateau Orleans (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
20:50:28 Feb 09 2011
Read 943 times

From what I was told the new Zodiac system born in the year 2012 and later so I don't see how this is really effecting any current member of VR...



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Foreverseeking2
Foreverseeking2
Shaitan (64)
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The House of Umbrae Octo is a member of an Alliance

Member of The House of Umbrae Octo
Vampire Rave member for 17 years.
19:20:51 Feb 10 2011
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Upon receiving further info on this subject , I was told that the change has not been approved yet by whatever organization controls it , so it is not official. Besides that the new zodiac will only affect those born after 2007 I believe.

Good news for those of use who like our sign the way it is.





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Foreverseeking2
Foreverseeking2
Shaitan (64)
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The House of Umbrae Octo is a member of an Alliance

Member of The House of Umbrae Octo
Vampire Rave member for 17 years.
19:24:06 Feb 10 2011
Read 927 times

FYI.... I happen to think the Zodiac is fun and entertaining,
it even holds some truths about personalities. I know many poo poo on things like this and that is too bad.



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Azriel1985
Azriel1985
Scamp (26)
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Member of Legion (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
22:49:12 Feb 10 2011
Read 922 times

My personal opininon if this ranges true then wow, I'm a fish so, by this new Zodiac stand point this would likley put me at Aqaurius, a little odd but favored do to one of my best friends is an Aqaurius, but when it comes down to it I am happy being my fishy self.

A13th Zodiac sign, why the long wait???



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Eva
Eva
Sire (100)
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Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
19:41:51 Feb 11 2011
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according to new zidiac changes i should be cancer...i dont fell like cancer



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Soulshroude
Soulshroude

No Longer Registered
11:06:20 Feb 12 2011
Read 899 times

~Foreverseeking~ No "organization" has control as to whether or not the Zodiac will change. The Zodiac have been around for centuries. If there has to be "approval" for something that has been around for so long, then society have actually become "sheeple" of the MAN!



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VR System
VR System

No Longer Registered
11:06:20 Feb 12 2011
Read 899 times

This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Feb 12 2011  •

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