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So I see a lot, and I mean a LOT of threads about "theory for this" and "theory for that" - at the end of the day I'm a little dismayed by a couple of things. 1) the use of terminology is sloppy. 2) The level of evidence beyond "belief" is also sloppy.

I tend to use terms technically - so from where I sit, the progression goes something like:

Idea - I have a thought about how something works - I don't have anything to back it up, but I'm interested in getting feedback.

Hypothesis - I have an idea about how something works, and I have some real factual basis to put behind it. It hasn't, however, been rigorously tested.

Theory - I have a hypothesis that I've run through the wringer and no one has been able to come up with a shred of data that runs counter to what I'm proposing...

So to bring this back around - people often propose "theories" about vampires, which are discussed at length, but very little real data is discussed and posts frequently include bits such as "...but I have no proof" etc.

My question is this - isn't it the height of intellectual laziness to believe something that is testable without proof? Granted, there are some real issues of Faith out there, but a lot of what we talk about here is testable.

Thoughts? Napalm?

Some ideas or hypothesis are more testable than others. The ones that cannot be tested will remain an idea or hypothesis until that can be tested and the data obtained proves it is an actual working theory.

Somethings will be tested and remain a theory. There are very few laws in science or any other realm of thought. We have the theory of evolution and Einstein's theory of relativity in science. In science, we also have the law of thermodynamics and Newton's law. Those two have been proven with enough evidence to graduate from the theory stage.

As for vampires, if the idea or theory someone has is based on a Hollywood film or a work of fiction written by Anne Rice or some other author, then I am worried about that person's sanity or logical thinking ability. Many live a lifestyle that some would consider a vampire lifestyle. I am sure there are differences with each. Many get in the forums and confuse fiction with reality. Or else they are busy role playing.

Should we also discuss "accepted theory" versus "controvertial theory"?

I think it needs to be kept in mind the youthful and their keen interest and lack of time to search past threads for the information they seek.

The have to have it right now ( it's about me ) generation...

And then you can discuss that it should be stated that a fantasy or reality theory is being discussed.

just thoughts to fuel.

To quote F.M. Knowles:

"Faith is often the boast of the person that is too lazy to investigate."

Good point. Most people, on the Rave or hell, anywhere, don't have a very good knowledge of scientific terminology. "Theory" is an overused word that most people think of as a synonym of "idea" that sounds more intelligent.

Maybe some people will read this thread and change their terminology, or be motivated to find some evidence for their idea.

However, some ideas are easier to test than others. Some people simply don't have the time or energy to test ideas, try and find proof, etc.

why all the fancy words.. theory.. doesnt any one use the simple word any more...

sorry of the topic..

Excellent points Stormwind.

As a Scientist myself I too am appalled at what some put forth as a "theory" in the forums, that are infact, not even well thought out ideas.

The terms that Stormwind put forth are not "complex", they are, in fact simple AND precise. Let's endevour to not be lazy with the terms we use. This will just lead to misunderstanding. Use the correct words to describe what you are discussing so no misunderstandings occur.

if you like the thread about differnt theories dont readt them

An excellent thread and yes i am one of the people who are quite lazy.....But your thread will definitely remind me next time how to utilize the appropriate words.....

I started the thread 'Theory for our Existence'...Now i now its an inappropriate title but i wanted people to come and read it...Most of the people around here read about vampires as it is the first thing that strikes them....therefore i thought it would attract more readers......

And i did call it a theory as it was my hypothesis which had proof although not that much but nonetheless cannot be ignored.

Like i said before..An excellent thread...

this is all very interesting , and I feel that teories should be backed up and to be precise on any and all info before handing out advice or giving it without some proof of actuality. just me I guess.

personally I don't really care what terminology is used as long as the information they put up is sound and researchable. Some things that people put up they may have just heard something that someone else has told them is a theory that has been tested and want to have someone else elaborate on it or put up more links that can be gotten. But if it is an idea, a theory or a hypothesis who cares.

I tend to agree with Bathorybabe. I do not post here often. (That is empirically verifiable).
When I do, it is because I have something to say that I can back with some sort of empirical evidence, source, or research. I have passed on several threads where my knowledge of the material did not meet those criteria. Otherwise, as Bathorybabe said, whether "it is an idea, a theory or a hypothesis, who cares." My bit of smugness for the elitists -- Now let's all have a beer.

Napalm first, thoughts later....always a good way to go in my book.

right there with you. it seems the terms are thrown about to the point that they are interchangeable.

however, i would like to point out that they take on a slightly different meaning when you put the word "personal" in front of them. what is a personal theory to me? something i've proven for myself time and again. just because it's my personal theory does not make it a scientific theory, though, and that should be distinguished and recognized.

personal theory and personal truth are not "theory" at all.

Personally I tend to be dismayed by a lot of the content of the threads whether or not they're related to theories.

But yes, I completely agree.

I also think it's the height of laziness to copy and paste blocks of quotes from someone else's book or website, and then add at the end, "discuss".

Some of the content in the threads whether it is based on a theory or not is just there for someone to level up.

Personal theory does change the meaning of the word theory. An adjective has the tendency to do that to a noun. Pretty girl does not mean the same thing as unattractive girl. A personal theory is one that may or may not be tested. Most people are correct in this thread when they say others do not have the time or resources to test some things out. If it is a personal theory, I will let it go without desiring a test if the person can be intelligent in their reasons for having the theory in the first place.

My theory is to have a pretty idea rather than an unattractive hypothesis or, better yet, I would prefer a pretty girl. But I am feeling lazy right now so I am putting my faith in beer.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.


Thought I would post this to try to help.

as long as I get the idea of the thread I don't care what it is called. If I can look it up and see that there is some basis for what is being said is all I really care about

I have to mention this....... Because it seems as though not everyone has thought of it.
Not everyone here has an IQ of over 140.
I am not the most brilliant of people, but I do enjoy the chance to learn more. So the use of 'proper technical terminology' does not seem to do anyone any specific good. It DOES do some good yes, but making use of the 'proper' terms rarely ever has an effect on the total content.
At least of all the threads that I have had the opportunity to read, it wouldn't change the basic purpose.

Proper terminology is important. To many people throw around words they don't know the real meaning for and then confuse the people who do. If you're going to research something, research it! Don't just rely on the answers of others. Seek out expert opinions, look to other theories about the same work. The use of proper words to explain yourself are important. You come across to the mass population like you know what you're talking about, because you do. :)

Napalm.

Good point

I think it's exceedingly hard for a start to "prove" anything about vampires. Where do you begin? Do you dig up an old style Hollywood vamp and perform tests? Or do you ask a bunch of new style energy vamps to submit to experimentation? Until something can be proven concretely and scientifically it's always going to be open to personal interpretation and judgement.

"The explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis OR theory."
(Occam`s razor explained by Wiki LOL)

Tenebrous, you just read my thoughts!

As long as the "specter" (notice the terminology) of the main forum remains "of a vampire, gothic, occult, or paranormal nature" it is almost impossible to have a very good terminology... unless if you take in consideration terms like undead, darkwave or ...fangs ;))

As long as the rating system will encourage people to post excessively on the main forum the Dominars will be always overwhelmed by "cheap" posts.

I must say that I respect very much the Occam`s razor but many great inventions and discoveries are not made in great labs with large amounts of money but in small improvised ones.

The zone where we are venturing is at the exterior of the sphere of knowledge. I think any Ideea could be interesting because another one can develop a theory from it!

Also when a friend of mine posted something not very accurate about a certain subject, that gave me the chance to prove otherwise and inform him better (and all that are interested by that thread). Sometimes we can learn from errors!

Precision in use of language is extremely important. I taught chemistry at the university level 23 years. A large vocabulary, correct understanding of word's meanings, and proper usage is crucial in description of observations. Once properly described one then develops a hypothesis as a beginning explanation. The hypothesis is then tested if possible to refine it. A hypothesis is then if possible described mathematically to make a law describing ordered behavior. If a hypothesis can only be described nonmathematically it remains a hypothesis. Several hypotheses and laws on a broad area of study are described in a blanket statement by a theory.

Michael
PhD, Chemistry

Permission to call my epiphany a "pet theory", sir?

Have at it. Just laying out the definitions I taught to many students over the years. Gave up being called sir when I retired from the Army, friend.

a belief can only exist with an idea... otherwise it just becomes fact.................

i agree with what you are saying and i love that someone else here like to try and use the scientific method.

i do run tests on myself but that is hardly conclusive for vampires as a whole. but if you want to see some real data but vampires, try going to the atlanta vampire alliance. they have done some stat based stuff there that is worth a look at.

Apparently by definition there are many types of the word: Theory.

The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

(this would be the type that is being challenged in this thread) In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common but misguided statement "It's not a fact, it's only a theory." True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.

(and the type that is the challenger)In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition.

Personally I believe that one cannot really argue the proper usage of any word in the english language, it's almost like arguing over the different pronunciations of 'Tomato'.

I only ever get irritated at extreme disregard to grammer/spelling.

A word can have any meaning the user of said word wants it to have. For this purpose of this thread, I think the creator wanted to establish a set or a somewhat set definiton for idea, hypothesis and theory.

A magority of the Population on this Site is the Younger generation and many of them do not use techinical termonolgies and intense words to describe what it is they are discussing its more a type quick , short and sweet to up their ratings

I must agree that these terms have been misused.
And I also agree that the younger generation dose tend to rush through but it is not just that younger generation that I see doing this.

So in short to each his own let's just all have some tollerance.

This is fun, I feel as though I am back in college, lol.

For one thing, alot of people have amazing ideas that ARE testable, but they don't have the funds to run such testing. Also, I've seen a few things posted in this forum section that seem logical, but aren't easily tested or impossible to test. Something doesn't become a theory until it's tested several times, possibly hundreds, and they have come up with the same result over and over. It's hard to test somethings over and over because it was a once in a life time opportunity, or you can't control it.

The vampire terminology is not too extended, don`t you think?

I dont beleive in theory, no matter which one it is, even the evolution one, I beleive in facts.
I do repesct theory and like to know more and what idea led to it, what was the hypotesis that was created out of the idea and then leding to theory.
I respect ideas and I even encourage them, also as for theory I also encourage them, without ideas we have no theory, without theroy we have no hypotesis, without hypotesis we have no research and then no fact to deny or approve. So this dont lead to lazyness...it leads to mind challenge.

Agreed Dragon Rouge

It's a Controversial Theory....

I'll agree with Callia. We are talking about people who do not spend a lot of time concidering what they write. I must admit that I am also uilty of this... especially when my blood sugar is high.

I blame poor typing skills. When I write with my fountain pen, I make no such mistakes. When I type, I am attempting to convert the thought image of a complex construct by shoving it through a qwerty filter. It's almost a language barrier, and I have difficulty spotting the errors when I am finished; including gaps of logic, because it is a translation of the thought image in the first place (filtered...)

I also have difficulty with teh little scrollbox that we are confined to type in... If I can see the entirety of the page it is easier to see if I have missed things; if I have the "outline" correct.

Some people here are used to writing on the fly (as it is part of their education/work) to do so. Some of us have been 15 years out of school and do not read as many proffesional journals as we probably should.

Some of us look to VR to fulfill that want, and are sadly disappointed with what we see; how ever can we be faulted for contributing to sloppy thinking, especially when it is not entirely the thinking that is sloppy?

(I will proof read this after I hit post)
*laughs*

i think i opened a can of worms here when i said that stuff

there are so many defenitions for that word theory and yes it could be said by using the word my on opinion not theory.. but oh well i guess my language(grammer) isnt as good as a college teachers is..

A BIT OF SMUG FOR THE ELITE

If propounding a theory
You hypothesize;
Beware the Mind Guardians
Who count themselves wise.

They will spurn your idea
And account you a lout,
If precision of language
And grammar you flout.

To the Rules of the Guardians
You must strictly conform.
Please express your ideas
In a legible form.

Whilst conversing with me
You have nothing to fear;
Let us discourse ideas
Whilst swilling cold beer

As the White Tower Guardians –
Ever surly and smug –
Grow weary of idiots,
We shall all raise our mugs.

A toast to the Guardians
Who keep us in line.
Free Will is worth keeping
And I shall keep mine.

Theories are nothing but proven Hypotheses. They are not Laws, and yes they can be proven wrong or incorrect by another theory. And this leads to accepted theories within a different set of scientist or field. It still means little as proof of anything. By the poster that mentioned that the word theory was being missed used without proof this makes it only an idea. Lets practice what we preach. Not being mean here but you did mention laziness. It may be that members are being simple and not lazy when making posts. The very nature of this site would mean that member believe or have faith in the metaphysical. No real poof is needed. Lazy minds perhaps but this is the Internet and not a research paper.

well anything can be debated and theorised to many degrees and yet still have no same out come depending on the subjest it is. I feel everything can be questionable yet that is just me I guess.

I couldn't agree with you more. I have read people talking about spells, turning things differents colors and whatnot but when I've asked for a pic no one has ever been able to back any of this up.

Theory is still simply Theory..no matter how you word it. Nothing fancy is going to change at all it is still the thought of different things happening in this world and universe.

lets face it.. some things just cant be tested in a lab or anywere for that matter, but there are some things that are beyond the intellectual person and require a little more "ability" to learn about. levitation- scientists can partially explain it, but some of us can actually do it hence the extra "ability'' i was talking about.. spiritual connections between people- scientist dint know, but we have experienced it before. that feeling you get when you see someone for the first time (most people think you are judging them), you partially are, but mostly you are connecting with their spirit and reading their aura.

a theory is a theory is a thoer, unproven or otherwise.
the question itself doesn't seem very clear.
I mean, if a theory is given as just that.. how is anyone to knock it.. as one theory is as valid as any other, until proven otherwise.

The fact is most of what we talk about here is fantasy. When there are threads based on historic events we have history to back up what we say and think but most of these threads are fantasy. How do you test fantasy?

As far as the terminology that is used in a forum discussions I really don’t think it matters. The main forum here on VR is for specific topics but we are not writing a dissertation. It is just casual communication through this forum. I really don’t think there is a difference between saying a thought, an idea, a theory, or even a believe. Chances are none of it is testable or factual when dealing with fantasy.

Agreed BathoryBabe
As long as the info is interesting and to the point I will read and respond .

This is probably one of the most intelligent, continuous threats I have witnessed here. But I do have to agree with Gaius, in the end we are attempting to understand theories, hypothesies, or ideas about fantasy and the fantastic. They are usually, mutually exclusive, thought the arguments can be interesting and entertaining, or they can become inane and absurd.

i think that we should discuss ideas to try to make them hypothesis, and try to test hypothesis to make the theories

I think that most people just don't the difference between an Idea, hypothesis, theory...etc. Thank you for clearing that up. :)

In th most part I do agree with this thread. It is my opinion that there are way too many here who actually believe what they read in anne rice books or what they see in films and on TV.

I find this both insulting and inappropriate. However, i do try to leave these style of threads alone as I do not like to judge people on their beliefs.

That said, I do not see why specific technical terminology should be used correctly in all threads. Some people (like myself) actually find it much easier to describe things in their own words rather than using scientific terms that someone else has either invented or used in their own hypothesis.

As many others have indeed stated here, there are many of us who either don't have the time to worry about the specific terminology associated with any given topic. There are also people here who may not have the IQ or knowledge to understand these specific scientific terms.

That said, I think that everyone should be able to express their opinions/theories/hypothesis without being worried that their post does not conform to the regime that the Elitists seem to prefer.

We are not all scientifically minded and those of us that are not would sometimes like to be able to understand what we are reading without doing a google search for a word that we are not familiar with.

I also agree when others have correctly pointed out that a theory does not actually have to have any facts to support it. This is what makes it a theory.

Mener

My personal tastes tend to the 'proven', 'disproven' & 'fantasy' for this place when it comes to vampires and the things that people propose as 'fact'.

An active imagination is required and when you apply any hard science to most what goes on here can be easily categorized as 'fantasy'. But that being said, there are a few things that science has yet to explain that are brought to the the fore here in the forums, though they are few in number.

I agree that age and maturity take a large part in this problem but because so much of what we discuss is more philosophical than scientific, I don't tend to assume that anyone is stating theory in the literal or strictest definition. Perhaps that allows me to be more forgiving in some areas. However, I am less forgiving when someone states something fantastical or faith based as fact simply because they have been raised to think it. At that point, I don't care so much about the terminology as much as the assumption of truth.

That's not to say that you don't have a valid point but just that I'm less inclined to be offended by the bad grammar so much as the bad justifications for ideas and hypothesis themselves.

alot of people jump on to something and writer what ever they think is right lots of people use such words with out the proper meaning behind them.

I would really like some FACTS to all this THEORY sorry i am not yelling...

sure ur not..lol