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Heard about this story a few nights ago.
And it pissed me off when i heard about it. Funny it was finnilly just gotten to the news, just the other night.
And had to share this with every body.

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FEBRUARY 11, 2006

BIBLE TAX EXEMPTION CHALLENGE
The Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida is challenging a state law exempting Bibles and other religious publications from sales tax. The group claims it is unconstitutional for the state to decide what constitutes a religion. The Liberty Counsel is asking Florida's Supreme Court to throw out the lawsuit, saying it lacks legal standing since the law does not injure the Wiccans.
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Here is another link on the matter.

http://www.romingerlegal.com/floridacourts/court_opinions3/03-3324.html

Well, passing what i heard here.

hmm.. it seems interesting that it would take this long for it to get to the news...

ahhh yes it is, and is one of the many reasons why i am putting it up.... :)

Good post. To some, I am sure Wiccan is a religion and it should have the same legal protection as Christianity. I think the Bible should not be exempted from sales tax. A book about the US Constitution would cost more with sales tax. The Constitution is the final authority for government in this country. Some believe the Bible is the final authority period. What is the difference? One is about politics, the other one is about religion. To some politics is religion. Both subjects cause heated debates.

true.. and i think the Bible gets the 'protection' because its the most widely accepted religion by the nation (though i am Australian) and Christians are trying constantly to make it seem easier to be Christian (no offence intended at many Christian on this site)

maybe.. but usually ive found that news involving Christians comes out pretty quickly

well if their standpoint is that it doesn't harm wiccans, or other pagan faiths...then why are our books and materials taxed?

good question.. its like they are trying to stamp out any reason to be anything other than a Christian or any other 'normal' religion.. if 'normal religion' isnt a contradiction in terms

Paganism will never get taken seriously by non Pagans and those who have the power like politicians.Therefore they see Paganism as less important than other religions.(No offense to anyone but that's how I see it.)

your very right DeathNite.. to polititions dont think that we are important because we make up a smaller number, and therefore wouldnt make much different to the votes

very true....

If you get right down to it, it's a shame they tax any book. they tax us to death as it is. Knowledge should be free.

hmm.. but knowledge is power, why would they want us to have power?? we might then start thinking for ourselves.. then where would they be?? back at our level, instead of telling us what to do

they do try to (OBEY) teach us to never (OBEY) think for ourselves, I hear they even sometimes (OBEY) use subliminal messenges

hehe.. nice Daermon.. its a good example

chritiantiy has the political power, it had for the last few 2000 years (or so), so every thing non christian is not a true religion.. i take it from my mother, i told her im wiccan, she told me, your not religious then... i told her yes i am... she told me no you cant cause your not chsitian ( i have ntohing against christinatiy i must make it clear,,, but such an act of ignorance is increadible, even tough it comes from my mother!)

I believe that every religion has one thing in common and that is a belief in a higher power. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong, fact is there is a higher power no matter what name you put on it.

History has come full circle. They persecuted people in the past for their beliefs and it seems as if they are trying to do that again.

People fear what they do not understand. Wiccan beliefs are one of them. They believe that witches are evil but they base it on horror stories and fairy tales instead of doing research and finding out the truth.

They are close minded people who don't like others who are not like them and don't conform to their beliefs and their ideals.

It is any other religion other then christian that pisses off most people of the main stream belief. and very good points.
sighs.
shakes head.

if it was catholics and not wiccans it would have been out that minute

i guess the world will never change after all....

As others have said, non-pagans will have a LOT of contempt for any pagan religions. It doesn't help that lies and propaganda have been spread by the Catholic church for the last 2000 years concerning pagans, witches, etc. And the mere fact that our president is a Christian will most likely have an effect on how quickly these matters make it into the news.

What we should be doing is asking for the same legal exemption from taxes that the bible gets. Simple as that. That way, they can't dismiss the case because it certainly does affect pagans that our books are taxed and the monotheistic religions are exempt.

robin3 - good thread for I just became an ordained Minister for the Church of the Spiritual Humanism. And i can perform Wiccan, Pagan etc... marriages and name changing. I'd love to read up more about this. My Ordainment is on my profile.

I think its more about money than acceptance on both parts

Thanks again robin3 im sending this along to my Church and its not of any one belief :)

I am certian this is giong to get me some dirty looks, however...
I am pagan
I also believe that all these 'free rights for meeeee' empowered individuals who make national news for 'being unafriad to stand up for their rights' especially in so petty a thing.. are silly, and are just looking to become famous for something. It doesn't matter which religion, one will always claim unfairness on their treatement, etc etc. "WE ARE OPPRESSED" sorry. it doesn't fly. You don't like what is happening with something ,you can either ignore it or work for it, but working for it comes to a lawsuit followed by national media attention, it just starts to look stupid after a while. This guy who made the news isn't an individual, not when compared to the christans who want the ten commandments in the schools, or the polotician who wants to legalize abortion. People will love me if I get in the news! RAWR

its just like the government and christians to not take in to account the thoughts and ideas of other religions because they find it to be less important

Fact of the matter, this government is just throwing more and more bullshit around, as it has been since it all has been in order, just a pile of crap and we get more and more idiots who have to deal with public affairs not taking into consideration anything at all, its not bad enough that this land is turning into waste, we have energy issues and a pointless war, but we have to suffer with fighting over civil suits, religions and gay rights. People need to just let be and deal, but noooo every little fucking thing is more inmportant than the major issues that we have to deal with in the now.

the govet does not care to know about other religons around.

Is not a big issue in my eyes, but it is obviously a big one in theirs I don't know what to say except that they seem like Atention whores to me.
It comes across as if they just want atention, is not so important an issue, it doesnt seem that way to me anways.
But HEY! everyone is different.

The court cannt do that they dont have the right or the power to really do that at all

I dont think any book is exempt from tax at this time. Why should the bible or other religious text be? Religion is used too often to get what someone wants for nothing and to rip off individuals why let them do it to the government too? Just one corrupt society trying to steal from another if u ask me. If i have to pay taxes for books they should to.

I don't belong to any organized religion..I think that all books should be treated the same way I paid taxes for my bible I got and the koran I also got..I pay taxes on all books no matter what they hold..It is wrong to exempt one and not the other..Wicca is recognized therefore it should have the same rights and privilliges as other religions.....

Personally I think it would be nice to just not have tax. Politics and religion, its all the same.

ok, thanks every one.
I wanted this to be infomational. And trying to not to get too deep into politics.
So, i hope people understand where i am comeing from on that. :)

It's probably "the man" out to get all religions that aren't Christian. (that was sarcasm, sorry I don't see this as a big deal, and definately not worthy of the hatred comments I'm seeing - no, I am not religious)

all religions can do this if they want to go through proper channels...hell the TOV is a legally registered and recognized vampire religion or so they say...this scientology mumbo jumbo is a religion started by a crazy guy believing we were started from aliens dropping crap in volcanos....lol

Thank you for sharing that. I believe everyone should be aware of what is going on out in the world. It definately took them long enough to say anything about it.

So Tax all of em and make all religions tax excempt status go poof then only people who are really faithfull will attempt to run a church and not someone who is making money hand over fist (tv evangilists drive me NUTZ)

the tv shows are so a trip....lol
man i could post a posting on just that alone....lol

Hopefully one day all religions and beliefs will be respected reguarded as equal.

one day i hope too. but as with every thing else, it is a far ways off. sadly

wow that very intresting but during this case they will have to keep in mind that we have the right to choose our own religion

im also interesting in how this will all work out, and I agree, the courts better remember that people are free to their religion, no one can choose a religion for us.

Books in general should not be taxed.
Knowledge of all that is known sholud be given...
That is why the internet was created!!

books come on they should be free bibles should be taxed

What an odd thing to argue about. Obviously they are just trying to force the courts to recognize them as a religion equal to Christianity, but still, quite an odd argument.

death...taxes...politics....meh.
feh...and ...bah. hehe.

why cant people take paganism seriously. it deserves respect like other religions

First of all, it is not a point of being taken seriously but of how big an issue is and how it is handled.
Paganism is taken seriously by me and probably most people who bothered to read/offer something to this thread.
It's my opinion that this case brings negative attention to the community itself, I understand the point of view and where they are coming from, but it could have been handled differently.
A book it's a book. Same taxes for all of them.

wiccans are treated with disrespect and things happen to them all the time wiccans lose their children because they fight against people who think wicca is satanic and they dont even check wicca out and whats worse usaully the judges think the same thing so that many wiccans lose jobs their kids and sometimes in the extreems their lives

My girlfriend is on msn groups and there was a post there about a soldier whose family was wiccan. He was killed over seas fighting for this country and now they are refusing to have a military cerimony for him because of his religion. When she sends me the story or the site again i will post it here that way everyone can check it out.

Here is the article that I was talking about.

War widow holds service for Wiccan husband
By TOM GARDNER
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

Retired Army Chaplain Bill Chrystal, left, and Roberta Stewart, right, carry a wreath symbolizing the Wiccan faith at the Veterans Cemetery in Fernley, Nevada, on Monday, May 29, 2006. The wreath was placed near the space reserved for a plaque dedicated to Stewart's husband Sgt. Patrick Stewart who was killed Sept. 25, 2005, while serving in Afghanistan. (AP Photo/Debra Reid)
FERNLEY, Nev. -- A war widow who wants the government to put a Wiccan religious symbol on her husband's memorial plaque held an alternative service Monday as a protest, hours before an official Memorial Day ceremony nearby.
"This is discrimination against our religion," Roberta Stewart said at the gathering of about 200 at a park east of Fernley for her late husband, Sgt. Patrick Stewart. "I ask you to help us remember that all freedoms are worth fighting for."
A few hours later and a few miles away in this pastoral community east of Reno, official Memorial Day ceremonies were conducted at the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial Cemetery.
The space reserved for a plaque in Stewart's name on a wall at the cemetery remains blank.
The Department of Veterans Affairs so far has refused to grant the Stewart family's request to have the Wiccan pentacle, a five-pointed star surrounded by a circle, placed on the government-issued plaque.
Stewart, 34, was killed in Afghanistan on Sept. 25 when a rocket-propelled grenade struck his helicopter. Four others also died. Stewart was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart.
Wiccans worship the Earth and believe they must give to the community. Some consider themselves "white" or good witches, pagans or neo-pagans.
"We are here today to honor American religious diversity of all faiths," the Rev. Selena Fox said at the alternative memorial service.
Fox, senior minister of a Wiccan group based in Wisconsin, said Stewart died defending the country that is denying him the right to express his religious freedom.
Jo Schuda, a spokeswoman for the VA, said Friday she did not know when a decision would be made on the request.
Approximately 1,800 active-duty service members identify themselves as Wiccans, according to 2005 Defense Department statistics

Maybe finally Wiccan's will be reconsied as a religion and not a cult or black art!!

The other reason that Wiccan books don't get tax exemption...Which one?

Most religious texts are one book. Bible, Qur'an, etc. Wiccan books are numbered in the thousands with no one book being the main source.

Also, many instruction books on magic have disclaimers "for entertainment purposes only" so that removes them from religion.

Wicca and Wiccan's should have the right of any other religion does.

So then does anyone know what book would be considered the official Wiccan religious book? The 'bible' of Wicca? Or was this a situation where ANY religious text including historical and philosophical would have been tax exempt? See I don't think this is a case where Wicca should receive the tax exempt status. I think this is a case where NO BOOK should receive it. If religions want to donate books that's fine...but if you sell it? You should pay taxes on it.

indeed, its the main problem that in wicca we dont havve a spefic book, as the path was developed in the 60 s mainly by gardner, but there are different traditions, thus we cant just get one book and say 'this one'...

but i do think that the bible and other stuff of other relgions should not be expemted... its not fair as you are categorizing... even tough as said in wicca we dont have one book... but after all around here we get loads of christain books, which are not the bible that eventually get tax exepmted as well!

I would have to agree with you on that I think it has taken to long for the "wiccan" religion to come to the forfront. We being wiccan are very proud of what is being done in FL and hope that we as a religion can band together and make our voices heard that we are tired of people always talking about us like we are bad people we are not bad people we are people like the rest of the SHEEP. We are just our own little flock. We are not as strong as say the christian faith, and the only reason why is because we are given a bad rap, by movies and things that make wiccan almost like devil worship. I am not a devil worshiper and never will be. In final note I would like to see more of these cases being brought up, maybe even for other issue in the world too, you know if we could be heard like the chatholic then maybe just maybe we could come up with an answer for some of the problems that we have in this world

Does it truly matter that you're going to pay a little more in sales tax? With what you're paying in legal fees and such with the lawyers and all that.. it seems that... well.. it's just funny is all..

Yea.I dont think that anyone should have to pay taxes.I mean the goverment prints cash everyday and they expect us to pay them.

"Yea.I dont think that anyone should have to pay taxes.I mean the goverment prints cash everyday and they expect us to pay them."

...Currency isn't effective unless there's value behind it. If you give me 3 rocks in exchange for like.. a car... well.. that's great, but where's the value in those rocks? With printed dollars the value behind them is in like how much silver or gold or something.. I can't remember.. but the point is we need to pay taxes. We can't just not do it. When you pay taxes it goes to things like schools annnd building new roads annnd like.. city improvement.. things like that. Have you ever been driving where there's construction on a road and it doesn't need it and someone's said "Our tax dollars hard at work." Yup.. that's what they're referring to.

That is really unfair !

Another case and point that religion and state still avent beenfuly separated.

Floridas laws are pretty fucked up.

The reason for the delay in getting the new out is easy... you can't show up and make a statement if you don't know about it in time... courts been doing that one for years

I realize that I am a bit "wet behind the ears" here, but the posting is a good one I had no idea about this at all; still, in my opinion all religion is based on one premise Faith. In order to believe in something that you can't "see" and hold it dear to you takes courage and character.
Most people that I know are frightened of Wicca. It's just ignorance. If Wiccans didn't have to hide...it might be different.
This is just my opinion and I mean no disrespect to anyone.

well hell....either tax all books or no books damn it.....i spend enough at borders as it is....lol

Here's an update on the appeal:

"Wiccan case can proceed, court decides"

(AP, March 07, 2006)

Tallahassee, USA - The Supreme Court on Monday refused to let the Central Florida-based Liberty Counsel, a legal organization that specializes in religious-freedom cases, intervene in a Wiccan challenge to a tax exemption for Bibles, religious publications and ceremonial items.

The brief order offers no explanation, but The Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida argued in papers filed with the high court that interventions are not permitted once a case gets past the trial-court stage.

The Wiccans' lawyer, Heather Morcroft, cited court rulings dating back to 1908 to support her argument.

The Wiccans, described on their Web sites as "an earth-based belief system or religion," contend the exemption is unconstitutional in part because it allows the state to decide what is a religion.

They sued the state on Halloween 2000, but the 1st District Court of Appeal in a 2-1 opinion ruled that they lacked standing to challenge the tax law because they benefited from the exemption. That issue now is on appeal to the high court.

Article Here

It should be noted that while it's great this was even reported on, it's interesting that it's filed in this news website as:

North America - United States - Occult

Occult...not religion.

This country has spat on the constitution for decades...and i find it rather rediculous how a nation (one i call home for goodness sakes) can suspect a damn petting zoo as a possible terror threat than say...The statue Of Yellowstone National Park. These are the same feeble-minded people that think the wiccan religon isn't justifiable...it's just another mistake this gov't has made.

In that you are correct...if a little off the subject. It is this country that has opted to include the Amish Country Popcorn Factory and the Sweetwater Flea Market in it's federal anti-terrorism database alongside the ones you mentioned...and Bush (our president) was the same individual that said:

"Religious freedom and tolerance is a protected right. I am committed to the First Amendment principles of religious freedom, tolerance, and diversity."

and followed that up with:

"I do not think witchcraft is a religion, and I do not think it is in any way appropriate for the U.S. military to promote it."

However, world wide, most governments and even local communities, continue to confuse Wicca with devil worship and evil satanic ritual and thereby refuse to recognize it as a valid religion or give it the same freedoms that other religions receive.

Now, does this mean I can buy Buckland, Cunningham and Ravenwolf with no sales tax? Cuz if so...Im going to get a new library in Florda?

I think that's precisely why the Wiccan court case was argued about removing the tax exempt status from other religious books as opposed to giving it to Wiccan books. There's just too many religions and religious books to argue that these books get it and those don't so better to do away with the entire exemption.

I know as terrible as this be, unfortunately this is one battle that can never be won. Considering how many catholics, christians, etc.. there are out there, we're bound to lose this in a landslide of votes. Corrupted government..........

hmm still in the occult section isnt it? i wonder when wicca will be considered as a religon...

i dont know if we will every be recognized. the usa is more dominant by the christians.

Athough the average american identifies with mainstream religion like christianity or muslim or mormon, it is really only the hardcore christian fundamentalists that are against recognizing and living alongside 'fringe' or pagan religions.

The hardcore christian fundamentalist (a la Jerry Falwell) do a very good job of convincing the public all christians feel as they do. While I disagree with organized religion as a whole, I find that fundamentalists of any religion are but a small sampling of the average person and they're simply more vocal and more involved thereby creating much more problems and negative stigma than their more moderate counterparts...so while the average christian would rather not get involved in condemning the average wiccan, they're not the one's making policy.

well we are not even reconized by the us arm.forces a wiccans wife wanted a pentical on her husband grave marker who was killed in action if can they put crosses there . so just who decides what religion is we need to unify both pegans and christans for they could be next

I think that the intent of the law is good, but there needs to be a mechanism where religions are recognized via simple, universal, criteria...

Christianity always get the better of everything bc this country was "first" founded on it. It seems everything is trying to go back to that. I used to live in a city where everything closed early on sundays, but opened late that day too... and EVERYTHING was all about Christianity.

Books are books. If a ten page little book can cost $20.00 and have sales tax, the Bible sure as hell can too.

They have a good point you know... it isn't like we could turn around and have our books exempt, or our herbals, oils or anything else.

Separation of church and state.... it should either be all religions or none at all which recieve this benifit.

Awesome post hun...thank you for sharing

It is my humble opinion. If you believe passionately about something, why does is matter if it costs a few pence/cents more? Will this stop you paying for the publication? In the UK we have VAT and I do not feel aggrieved by the fact that we have to pay it. I will still buy what I want with the 17.5% added to the bill. This also applies if some other religious group is getting a discount, I would not care in the slightest.

Bible the biggest piece of science fiction I've ever glanced over

demonicsaint,

I really have to reject your assertion on the basis of your own admission.

How can you form a balanced opinion if you haven't read it fully, nor understood the parabolic complexities of many of it's books?


Also, the article mentions that the law actually exempts all texts classified as 'religious'. Which means that if they lose their tax breaks, it will not only be the Christian faith which will be affected and it certainly won't benefit the Wiccan's in any case, from what I understand of it, since they are not officially recognised as a religion, they can't get the tax breaks and this is why they are suing.

Well, it seems a rather dirty tactic to deny others because the state won't allow you the same rights. It smacks to me of spiteful blackmail.

Of course, if the Wiccans are using this as a platform to plead their case for equal rites (excuse the pun), then I hope that they succeed, but not at the expense of the majority who depend on tax breaks to preach their faith.

I disagree Stabb...with the use of tax breaks to give advantages to some in their evangelizing, you have created a playing field that seeks to keep a minority religion in the minority. I understand that religions perform many charities and that most are not out to make a profit, but one can already see how that has been horribly taken advantage of and we now have massive - multi national (almost corporate) "non-profit" religious groups where the heirarchy have managed to live well beyond their means and are now part of the wealthy elite.

To continue to offer millions in tax breaks on religious materials so that these groups can have those extra millions to lobby politicians or curry favor with foreign dictators is not only contradictory to the original idea, it's downright contradictory to their own faith.

Then I would cap the funding towards any individual group, as we do with political parties.

There is nothing to stop organisations from publishing their accounts, if they are all above board.

The gist that I get from the story, is that Wiccans wish to deny everyone the opportunity, from the evangelicals drowning in their donations, on down to those that publish for the sake of spreading their interpretations.

It's like using a machete to butcher a juicy steak, just because you aren't allowed a piece.

I think that campaigning against a whole sector of the religious community is an error of judgement, since it will galvanize opposition to their taking up a position as a legally recognised school of faith.

hehe - Well mate, I wouldn't exactly point to politics as an example of how money can be responsibly kept from influencing power...kind of making MY point with that example ;)

I'll admit that it might seem inappropriate to remove the tax break from every religious organization on the sales of their book but I'll remind you that they are talking about SALES of the book. If a group or religious congregation decides that it wants to GIVE AWAY a book, then they can write off the production of that book and reduce their costs. Although I'd also like to point out that if a religious organization is merely trying to 'spread the word' than those costs should be looked at as a fine investment in their religious teaching. When they SELL it, they are able to use the profits for other things (charitable or otherwise) and should therefore be taxed on it like any other "business".

I don't look at it as sour grapes so much as right a long overdue wrong the only fair way one can.

This is just like in 1993 a church pastor wanted to napalm a coven that was practicing at the army base near his church. People fear what they don`t know. I can`t believe with all our knowledge and freedom we haven`t changed that much from the burning times.

"Freedom of Religion.. Means Any Religion. Wether you agree with it or not"

I would personaly love to print about 10,000 flyers with just that saying.. and throw them over congress.

Now dont I just dare to dream?

Those that make these political decisions don't interpret the clause of "Freedom of Religion" to necessarily mean "any religion". Many of these politicians believe that because those that founded the nation were all forms of christian men, that they really only meant the freedom to worship in different forms of christianity. Many even believe that we are still a christian nation and that the other religions may be tolerated but are not required to be tolerated. It's a shame I know, but there are extremists in every religion and when those extremists achieve a power over their moderates, we see the results in bigotry, war, and intolerance.

I was taught that our country and the constitution of the United States of America was founded on Bibllcal Principles"In God we Trust". and I will say Wicca is a religion, anything that is based on strong faith and genuine belief can be labelled a religion.

FelixFelix,

My mistake on where the break applies. I've been arguing a seperate issue...lol Sorry about that.

It is strange that it would take this long to get into the news, though I do hope the wiccans win. For far to long, christians have been exempted from some things, its only fair that other religions be allowed to do the same because this country is suppost to be freedom of religion

Good subject, open a new thread to continue.

RIP

Mistress Moreish