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Dead and only a shell, would it be wrong to use parts of it for spells?

Not if it WAS a consenting adult.

if it was for good spells it should be okay but if it's for bad onces then no

Ok, before this thread is closed, and we only have minutes..."wrong" for whom?

Most places have laws against desecration of a corpse so unless you're talking a bit or hair or fingernails, you'll run into it being illegal. Personally speaking if it were a friend or family member of mine someone were thinking of using, I'd have a problem with it.

w....t...f

Are we talking about a conflict of morals or what?......like "is it ok for me to fuck a dead person?" hell if it is worth a life sentence if caught go for it!

I really don't care, but if it was someone I knew id ream you a new asshole, heh.

Dude.Let the dead RIP.Thats utterly disrespectful,and somewhat sick if you think about it.I choose not to.

I agree with Anti... W..T..F..?!
The point behind this is...? (other than creepy & completely odd)
Wrong topic to post here in my opinion & not very sure its the right place to post this "topic" either...

are we really discussing this as if it were an option and I really cant reacall a spell that SHOULD be cast using dead body parts.

I disagree wholeheartedly. I try to be open minded but this subject to me is very creepy & so odd. Ive never heard of this dont before nor have i ever seen any spells using body parts...
1st because i feel its desecration of the body unless you have permission from the deceased before they passed or immediate family.
2nd It just doesnt seem right...Using dead human parts? For me the idea just doesnt click in my head as normal or something you hear everyday..
For some reason when i think about it & try to see both sides i start shuddering & feeling very uncomfortable about the idea of even doing that to a deceased persons body...

Spells can be done without using the body parts of the departed.

Requiem edit: Andaluz - this was not the question, whether people parts are needed, but the ethics/morality of said usage. Please stay on topic.

I'm not an expert in the field, but to my knowledge it would probably pretty evil to use dead body parts for spells.

Oh and I third the W..T..F!

Urm i think it is sick, Imagine if it was one of your loved ones...
If you are into Black Magic. you really would not care.
Actually i have been told of a very good friend ,"Tiouto", it is of African Heritage to use human bodypart's to ward off evil...They use the evil they kill to warn of the Evil spirit's.
It isnt something i am into, but i am interested in learning what drive's the phsycotic mind.

i think it would depend on a couple factors...did we kill the one we are gonna cut ??....is it a friend..? how important of a spell is it...?

Straight to the point. I believe it would most definitely be morally wrong.

Mechelle007: Why? By whose morality? Please explain.

I am not saying that all people would think it is morally wrong. That is just how I feel. You don't mess with the dead. Even though that is nothing there (like a soul). I feel it is just something that should be left alone.

Now, if someone wanted their body to be used for spells. I believe that is there wish. If we are talking about a persons wishes. You should do whatever they want you to do with their body. But, if you're going to randomly dig up someones body and use it, I feel that is wrong.

I dont see why it would be a problem. The dead are subject to the rest of nature why not other people.

There are several spells that can be done using a dead body or with things that have been around a dead body (ever heard of corpse water or graveyard dust/dirt).

Whether one chooses to use the dead body as a component to their magick is up to them. There's nothing wrong with that.

My first thought was "F**k no!!!!" but after a little thought it would be the choice of person ante mortem.

As it stands now I would -not- want anyone to make a spell using any part of my body.

...as opposed to messing with it while you are alive? Heh.

Personally, if someone was to be messing with my corpse, I would prefer if it had some practical cause. Like, say, dug up and eaten by a hungry animal. People using my bodyparts for random nonsensical spellcasting, would annoy me.
Either way, it should be removed with respect. One of the ways one judges the civility of a nation, is how one treat the dead. Don't just hack away with an axe.

well ive been a practicing witch all my life and im 32 now and never heard of using body parts for any kind of spell

as for moral ethics i am not even going there.

as for the purpose of this post? aint touching that one either because its touchy and way out there.

I had to mull this one over for a bit before I could come back reread it with a jaundiced eye not let my emotions carry me away.
I tend to see Imagesinwords point there have been a number of serial killers and other kinds of killers willing to supply body parts.
On the other hand if a person was to will their body for the express point of its use in this kind of majik then well there would be nothing wrong in it at all.
Personally I havent ever heard of the use of human body parts in any kind of spell doesn't mean there aren't spell out there that call for them.
*sighs* I would personlly be appaled by the use of human body parts other then my own hair finger nail clippings or my own blood.
That is my own choice.

has to do with the body like if it's a body of something magical or just human..
and what it's being used for.

I think this all depends on who you are... I personally wouldnt do it, but that doesnt mean that it isnt morally okay with someone else. I cant think of a reason in magick to do so, BUT there are things I dont know about. I suppose if a person says....... I want to donate my body for magick then I guess its okay. *shrugs* Im a bit iffy about this whole thing personally.

If a body is dead, Im not really sure the dead person is gonna put up a fight or really care......

I don't know if magickally it is wrong or not, but to me, morally it is wrong. I just can't see any good enough reason to use a body or parts of a body in a magickal rite.

a body(empty shell) to me is exactly that, a peice of soon to be rotting flesh, more toxic, but essentially no different that the steak in my fridge, I have some odd views on death subsequently.
as to the question, as long as you are not the one who killed said body I see nothing moralistically wrong, as I believe that funerary rites are more for the surviving family anyways.
legally there might be some issue unless extensive legal contracts are signed prior to death, but in fact this is done, and i myself am considering body donation to an artistic cause see below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Worlds
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,,669680,00.html

I think it is up to the deceased persons wishes and the family... Also if it is to cause harm to others it would be a definate no...

I don't think that would be wrong; as long as the person that you are using has agreed to this before passing. I stated in an earlier post that I have donated my body to "the Body Farm"..run by Dr. Bill Bass. The body is nothing but decomposition of tissues and bones and I think it's a great thing to leave behind to study for the living...to use it in spells and whatever else would be fine as well...as long as the person intended for you to do so...that's my opinion and that is all it is.

Yes, take it, take, what ever you need, good or bad dont fear there is no such thing, do, express,take,dont care,do, eliminate the cage of duality and kick the ass of the existence.................................

My gut says if the person using the spell has permission from the deceased, yes.
If no permission was granted, the answer is No.

Ehm...
Ok I was all set to be openminded until this thought crossed my mind. When bodies are used for scientific purposes, the ends tend to justify the means (in most cases). The bodies are used for the greater good of humanity (supposedly). So now Im thinking the desired outcome of the spell would influence how morally "right" it would be ..whether you had permission from the deceased or not. Then again if the "T"'s were crossed and the "I"'s dotted on the required paperwork to in fact make this legal...ehhh...still doesn't sit well with me..I suppose because I cant imagine what kind of spell would justify using a dead human....ugh

hmmm so a guy who loves go to bars play darts, shoot pool, and just loves to party...

were you planning on finding some spare body parts to use for a spell and getting a general opinion as to if it was ok/accepted by most?

you never gave your input on it - whats the plan Memnoch, your thoughts?

my thoughts - leave dead people alone unless they wanted to be used for research that would somehow benefit the masses. if its for your own personal gain... hack off your own limbs!

*can I put this thread in a wood chipper now?*

Alright, I have to throw my two cents in on this one. Even if you do have a carcass laying around it does not seem morally right to use its parts to facilitate the conduct of spells. This person should have been laid to rest and respect paid to them, hence the term Rest In Peace. Not, Rest in Pieces.

I dont wish to counterword no one or even worse,to flame on the forum,but really,i am asking my self,why do ppl have such opinions on dead bodys??Exactley,it is not a dead ppl,but a dead body,a shell,without its inhabitant anymore,five elements wich will find them selfs in to the balance of this world by desintegrating.It is really pointless to say that we are doing somethng wrong by taking "from it",we know it is abandoned and no one will come back for it,you cant harm the soul by picking on the vessel,soul doesnt give a one penny about it(it exited and it is on its further journey),it is really nothing wrong to use bodyparts,in this case human ones,for a spell or a ritual,but i would be careful not resummon the soul back in to the already decomposing shell(ties are still here with the body until the body fully desintegrates and its elements return to balance),wich would than be what you are saying;wrong/harmfull/painfull/evil/ect.......

i think it is ok, why not it's not like the dead body is going to mind as long as nobody found out about it...

LOL...forgive me for laughing but.."as long as nobody found out about it"??? Therefore implying that it is wrong or it wouldnt matter if anyone found out or not...*shakes head*

WTF? Beside's it being totally f****** discusting it's totally f****** gross! I thought about it all the different ways you can make yourself think about something like this, even if you somehow did it all legally and this person's body was left by the deceased to be used in such morbid ritual, the person wanting to use it would have to be wanting to do so for something bad. I don't see anything good of this. SICK!

i agree a little with the half that says if its for good and the person consented, and the other half that says its gross, and that the spell couldnt possibly be good if it needs a dead persons body part.

i really wouldnt be able to decide... in a way no it would not be wrong... since the person is dead, but on the other hand there is the whole mutilation of a corpse thing... i say if you are gonna use it for good, and not evil... then go for it!!

are you trying to justify something that deep down you know is wrong? because "if" is a big word here. if a dead body is just an empty shell - who says it is? how do you know? if you deny all things spiritual, then parts of a corpse can have no magical use whatsoever. some cultures believe some spirit does still dwell in the corpse, and that if the corpse is desecrated or is incomplete, then the soul of that person is also incomplete. if nothing else, then it is showing scant regard for the beliefs and feelings of others. it is not yours, it does not belong to you, and trying to convince yourself it doesnt matter because it's just clay is fooling no-one.

Well that is a tricky one. I would have to say if you have the persons permission before they die then go ahead but if you don't then it would be wrong.

But either way if the police found out it would be wrong. So you would have to do it at your own risk.

I guess not if the person gave premising before he/she died but if u plan on just stealing parts from a grave or something thats just sick lmao

i think any desecration of any body is wrong......nor would i use human body part is any spells...... icky

"Beside's it being totally f****** discusting it's totally f****** gross! "

regardless of the fact that I too believe that spells truly require NO materials if you have the will to do it right, I take some issue with statements like this at the top
gross is a matter of personal feeling, not an absolute, many cultures and styles of magic do involve dead flesh, decaying objects, etc etc, Santeria, voodoo, are the most well known of these, normally not human, but that again would depend on the attempted working.
would you go to haiti or south america and tell them they are practicing magic wrongly?
I somehow doubt you would.
i'm not defending his premise here, just keeping the discussion open minded enough to discuss, not name call

Yes, most of us are viewing this idea with a Western World view.

well never heard of using body parts in spells myself, and I am an ordained Master Druid

I will respond to that as a yes...let me explain I for a fact know that this sort of thing has gone on in my family for a long time (voodoo-black magic) and have always asked this question...why does your voodoo and your black magic not work on those that don't believe it? So yes it's just gross to me why would my personal view about it be any less valid?

i see nothing wrong with it

I say go for it!

i agree it depends on weather you have permission before the person dies

I also agree, you should get that person's consent to use his/hers body parts. It falls into that respecting the dead catagory for me.

I'm with Phara on this. I've had to sleep on this in order for my not to send out a resounding "No" for my answer.

Honestly, unless you 1. Have permission, 2. Are truely working for the GREATER GOOD, and 3. Have nothing illegal involved, I would support this. HOWEVER... I view this as desecrating a persons remains, disrespecting their body, and disrepecting their families/friends.

I would say that if you had express permission and didn't deviate from the terms of the permission then technically it is OK. Morally and ethically I would give a resounding No, however. It would be very unusual for there to be a justification for it.

not unless the person gave you the ok before dying..i wouldnt want people disturbing my body.

i agree with midnightdance. if they gave you the ok before dying. it would be disrespectful to 'steal' the dead parts. let them RIP otherwise.

I really hope this question is only a joke or a tricky question, you can really be tinking about ripings parts of a dead corpes? are you? Well, unless you think about repping its nails or the hair then it's okay, but any of the other parts would be illegal without the consenting of a relative.
Still hoping it was just a joke

If you got permission from the deceased, I guess it'd be okay. However if you didn't it's wrong. I don't believe that the dead care about what happens to their body after all they've departed it. However, finding the graves or the bodies messed with would be damaging to the surviving relatives. Out of respect for those left behind, corpses should be left along unless you have permission from the dead.

I believe that if a person, before their time of death, gives consent for another consenting adult to use their corpse for whatever, there shouldn't be a problem with it. However, the person using the body should in no way act to harm other people (or suffer the consequences), and should not use a body that they do not have WRITTEN and notarized consent from the deceased.

And that is my two cents.

personally, i believe that the 'right' and 'wrong' aspect depends on if the person expressed their oppinions about this before they died. for example, if they told you, 'sure, if you want you can use my body for spells after i die' then yes, b/c you have their permission. the same goes if they told you 'i dont really care what happends to my body after i die'. however. if they never mentioned it or told you 'no' then dont b/c it would be a huge disrespect for them. you also have to take into consideration the remaining family members and friends of the person. dont do it if it'll hurt them or if they tell you not to. it was, after all, their family member/friend who is now burried in the ground and just knowing that the body is intact and resting may be the 'comfort', if you will, that they need

It's bad to remove bodyparts but okay to take the hair or pull out the fingernails! How, oh, how did that reasoning come to be?
The issue shouldn't be wether the corpse still resemble a human afterwards, but wether the desecration of a body at all is questionable. You can't say it's not right, but then say it's okay to take SOME pieces!

agreed Ctyler, it is either acceptable for the parts or for none, and hair and fingernails are parts, no less than the meat and blood and bones.

"why does your voodoo and your black magic not work on those that don't believe it? So yes it's just gross to me why would my personal view about it be any less valid?"

this argument works on ALL magic clix, not just the darker side, as a forcefull disbelief is in itself a form of protection magic.
but the reason I say claiming it's gross just because it is, is entirely dependent upon the upbringing one has had, also it's very poor debating.
to some a dead body is something to look upon with memory and reverence, for others, it is a slab of meat, nothing more, nothing less, and that which made it more has continued on another journey, or simply winked out, depending on ones belief systems, i'm not arguing MY side here, i'm looking at this objectively from numerous sides, I never said your opion was WRONG Clix, merely a little closed minded

I'd like to point out that when a corpse is embalmed for an open casket funeral, there are any number of things done to the body for the sake of making it 'pretty' that could be viewed as desecration.

Lets all remember that most often in modern western embalming, standard practices involve the mouth being stitched shut and the blood being removed from the major arteries and replaced with embalming fluids and chemicals.
The chest cavity and major organs are also sucked dry of their natural fluids and refilled with chemicals and still more chemicals are injected under any section of the skin that may need to be 'fluffed'
Some may write this off as necessary but it's still a bit odd that we don't take exception to our loved ones being emptied and re-stuffed like a pillow just so they provide a pretty corpse for us to cry over.

You have a good point. I've never thought about it that way. It makes me wonder if the embalming stuff would make a corpse unsuitable for spells.

first of all, i if i sound like i am flaming, i assure yall i am not...but this thread shouldnt even be posted.

it seems to me that this is started because someone doesnt know jack about the craft at all, and is trying to fake it

its highly dangerous to be playing around in things you dont know anything about. period end of story.

personally i have never heard of using body parts in spells at all, and ive been studying this stuff all my life. i am an ordained master druid priest, and the only time i have ever heard of anything even remotely like that is sacrifice.

just the thought of some idiots reading this and being crazy enough to actually try to go dig up graves for body parts or even worse start killing people in order to get the body parts is sickening.

DMD you took the words right out of my mouth, hun...well said.

maybe not in druid teaching but I thought the hand of glory involved removing the hand of a recently hanged criminal...or is that horse pucky?

Here we go:

The Hand of Glory is a grisly candle-holder. To create it, one must:

1. Go to a gallows near a highway or crossroads and cut off a hand (preferably the right hand) of a hanged felon.
2. "Using a strip of the burial shroud to wring it dry of any remaining blood, you then put the hand into an earthenware pot, filled with a concoction of herbs and spices, and left it to marinate for two weeks."
3. Take it out and expose it to bright sunlight until it is dry. If it is not a sunny day, it is permissable to heat the hand in an oven along with vervain and fern.
4. Make a candle out of the fat of a hanged man, ponie (probably horse dung), sesame, and virgin wax. The dead man's hair should be used to make the wick.
5. Place the candle between the fingers on the hand.

With such a candle, witches and sorcerers could cast a spell over the inhabitants or any home, rendering them insensible and motionless. The potential for burglary is obvious.

Now you could argue that the spell isn't real or valid or in line with your teaching but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or hasn't been spoken of before.

As I read the new post to this thread I felt that the spell was in question and not addressed. Trying to keep an open mind I feel the spell shoud be questioned. In the case of the spell above should it be cast. I am but a novice but isnt one of the Wiccan tennents "And Ye harm none do what ye will" I feel that any spell using the dead human body parts will incorporate the deceased into the spell and therefore causing someone harm.

First off I have to say that the body is always just a shell dead or alive ( in my opinion) so to say it may be ok to use it once the soul is passed on is a strange query for me . Seccond I dont think anyone needs to use parts of the human body for spells it just doesnt seem right . Third however some people use dead animal parts for spells and nobody is saying anything about that...

hhmm I see i am in a minority here. personally would I do this.. not for anyhting.. nothing would be worth it to me. But as was stated before.. if the person died from natural causes and was willing to allow their body to be used.. I really see nothing worng with it. After all we "descrate" bodies daily to train doctors since it was the persons wishes to do so. Why not allow our bodies to be used how ever we wish.. it snot like we will care at that point or be in need of them again.

And just so I do not get hit with the reserection view.. if they can raise you if you have been creamated or been dead so long your nothing but dust why would this be different?

Ok. My humble opinion: If everyone was ok with it then I don't see the problem. I don't think that what happens to our bodies after we die has any affect on US. So, why not? lol

I kinda wish the poster would come back and answer some questions though. Such as what kind of spell? What body part(s)? Also, FelixFelix made me think because of his post on embalming. I'm wondering if you could still use body parts after this procedure. I mean, if the majority of the blood is drained and replaced by embalming fluid...then wouldn't that be a hindrance?

Catalunah, laws vary from country to country.
And Felix, enbalming also vary from country to country.
Some do not practice enbalming at all, some burn the bodies and spread the ashes into the river (that they also drink from btw).

Furthermore, the objection to an idea is not valid reasoning to say that a thread should not be posted at all. Even though this site is based in the US and is subject to US law, it still has some freedom of speech involved. The only rules on the forum are mostly topical limits, and are listed here, so do check them out.

Let's not restrict the topic to national law, but focus more on moral and ethical rules.

Lamia - the spell for the Hand of Glory was never claimed as a Wiccan spell. The Hand of Glory is I believe first discussed in the 1600's. As I said before, you could argue that the spell is invalid but we could argue that any spell is invalid since it's all a question of belief. So while there may be none that use human material in Wicca, we shouldn't discount the spell entirely on that respect alone.

Catalunah - It is legal to own a skeleton or skull in the US. You can own them as a teacher, or even as an artist. There are laws governing how you obtain one but no real rule on your qualifications for ownership. See here:http://www.boneroom.com/skulls/newskulls1.html

That being said, other bio-material can have laws governing it's ownership and use. Most states have laws that prohibit the 'abuse of a corpse' or actions against a corpse that would outrage reasonable family sensibilities. There are also laws that govern the "right of the dead to rest undisturbed and unmolested". That means laws against grave robbing and corpse robbing but they also vary within the US. "Some states prohibit abuse of the corpse, some criminalize mutilation of the corpse, some states expressly outlaw necrophilia, but there is no consistent and coherent body of law pertaining to bodies." See Here: http://www.slate.com/id/2063222/

I think the body should rest in peace not be cut up

I think if it was for a good cause and for a good spell yes. But allow the remains of the shell to rest in piece.

in some places now they take body parts for spells. in transylvania, someone believed a spirit was haunting them so they took the heart of the dead corpse and stored it away and it ended the haunting. But i do not think of it being right to take any remains of a corpse, for a good spell maybe...

Katye

I never saw any spells that called for large parts of the human to be used, other than to create zombies. I have seen finger nails, eye lashes, tongue, sexual organs and baby fat listed but never anything that called for an arm or leg (unless you mean demon contracts). Head for trophies and blood, of course.
I am listed for organ donor so, I may show up on someone's altar some day. ;)

I can only imagine what body part of mine would show up one day? hmm. i either what to be buried in a box tomb like my ancestors or mummified lol. probably the box tomb. or ill have myself put in my families mausoleum in sedalia. not quite sure. a box tomb sounds interesting. my family was one of the first familes to use a box tomb. box tombs are rare.

Well my thoughts on this is that I would not use a body for anything unless it was for some form of medical purposes. I feel that a body should be respected and given a proper end of life ceremony. Whether it be buried or burned.

if it was hair or nails not I dont really see the issue as long as it was someone that would not have had an issue with it to begin with. Other wise NO!!

Felix,
wiccan spell or not wouldnt the use of the body parts incorporate the dead into the spell?

Just imagine to yourself. what if someone you knew who died was being pulled apart by others and no one had a opinion on it. i feel like i would regret taking the body parts of others unless i took hair or nails clippings. i would probably use a spell out of that.

Ew.... creepy much? What the hell is going through that head of yours? It's completly disrespectful. Not to mention the mob of people who'd be on you in a second if they ever found out. You'd be one dead s.o.b.

I would have to say no...But at the same time I can see nothing coming from a dead shell.

we wouldnt be after a skull for voodoo now would we. :) you do know voodoo is just hoodoo hehe :)

truly this question should be writen and sent to your council I am sure they will have a very firm view on this. its damn illegal as imoral
not that illegal ever stopped me but wow.

uh babes... voodoo and hoodoo are 2 totally different things.

Lamia12 - that would assume that there is some kind of universal guideline for spellmaking...and there isn't. A spell is creative. That involves huge variables from the spells intent, the culture that influenced the spell, the possible religious beliefs of a spell maker, and the question of whether the spell was meant to literally transform or merely act as a focus for the casters own will and mind or just as some kind of positive/negative thought made whole.

Since spells aren't universal, their uses aren't universal and the beliefs that influence them aren't universal, the effect that a body part or corpse would have on a spell would also be varied in its acceptance and practical application. Moral questions aside, whether or not using body parts and corpses in a spell would work is a question of belief like any other spell.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.