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Here's an interesting topic for discussion, I apologize if it's been discussed before.

Now, Goths used to be conisdered individualists because of their somewhat unique style of dress; however, in recent years with the emergence of the "emo" movement and the rise in popularity in stores like "Hot Topic", that individuality factor has gone down as every teeny bopper with a razor goes to hot topic so they can feel cool.

My question is this? How can we keep Gothic style unique and authentic while the mainstream threatens to fill it with suck?

Well just be yourself. That is all I think that it is labeling I believe everyone is unique in their own way.

just don't fall into societies balance, a trend in other words, just because it is in fashion, be yourself, assecerize yourself. Tommy hilfiger is a good example.

Bot very good replies. Also wait...in a bit the fad will pass and the followers will go to something else and we will be on the outskirts again. Besides it really isn't hard to tell goth from head to toe Hot Topic....look at accessories and attitude :)

I totally agree with gothmarionette.
You will have those that just do it because its the "in" thing to be. Im starting to see some "goth" kids now bringing back the old school hip hop look with the gold reeboks and the hightop fades. One side of the spectrum to the other.
There are those that want to stand out and be noticed for being different and you have those that are just themselves, I feel the later is what true goth is.

i totally agree with VampiressRosalie and the other posts... just be yourself... and in my vision of what a goth is... is to use creativity, if we use them in us and in our way of dressing... no one will be able to "copy" us... be creative and unique... that's what sets us apart from other beings... ^^

The reason for this is as simple as it is obvious: almost all of us have no true inner individuality any more. We all want to be perceived as strong, individualistic, with character, integrity and the inner strength and power that comes from all such... yet so very few of us bother to invest the deep contemplation, the diligent work and study, the choosing of the difficult paths that result in true inner growth and strength of character to achieve such REAL individuality.

Instead... we think we can buy it at a clothing store, "earn" it through hairstyles, piercings, tattoos, and accessories, and proclaim it through all the outer trappings that are, in fact, just as literally superficial as we ourselves truly are.

When will society recognize that true individuality comes from within, from the spirit, the mind, the soul, and not from without and what is placed, pierced, cut, colored, or otherwise done or worn on the body?

Until this fact is acknowledged and lived, none of us will ever be true individuals. Instead, we will forever remain nothing more than a statement not of who and what we truly are, but instead a statement only for the "sub-culture" fashion and accessory industry.

And truly... how individualistic is that?

I agree with the above posts.

Individuality should be kept in the personality not with the image.

Really if a goth wants to be an 'original' goth by the looks, then s/he should wear light colours, like pink from head to toe and go to a Goth Club...

Businesses like Hot Topic are just that Businesses...they don't have to stick to one thing they want to make money and new trends is where the money is..

Does that mean that the so called 'goth fashion' will disappear? No. It just means its not mainstream anymore its no longer a trend...

Kids do what they do to be cool and adults should know better as to a topic like this.

I look for the furniture,a well keep parlor says goth to me.Antiquty in fashion and assesories,someone that is in I believe the word vogue would never do plastic or die cast ,Would a fad goth buy any thing from a specialty store?I would say only if they invest in exploring the culture and sharing interest...this is how societies build with initiations without which sub cultures are vunreble to misrepresentation by hyper fad kids that have scattered sub culture exposer.

Punk gets the same fashion debate all the time but Goth is easier to spot when it is just costume.

I personally feel that there is no way to dress gothic. Goths are unique individuals altogether. Not just on how they dress. If they were to claim they were goth because of how they dress then they are not goth at all.

I enjoy gothic fashion and find that those that are goth
are much more comfortable with the attire.Like Punk Goth is subject to Fashion Posers,Are they playing dress up or are they known to be spotted in goth lolita
swim wear and do they have Ikea at home or victorian
era original or imatation at home.Goth is Beautiful in appearance if a person in costum doesn't have the mannerisms I feel cheated.

True nonconformity is doing (or in this case, dressing) a certain way purely because you want to, even if others happen to be doing it too.

i don't think the 'mainstream' is making inroads into Goth style, but the emo crowd seems to be taking elements of punk, prep, and goth and blurring the lines -- i think this merely gives the impression that Goth is appealing to mainstream. There is probably a fine line between goth & emo but i haven't spent much time thinking about it.

Boy #1- "So like I bought some Vans and like some Independent Pants that sag in the back and like these way shredding boxers so now i am ready to be a skate punk...."

Boy #2-"Oh really,do you want to go skate?"

" No I don't know how too,but I look cool in all this gear right?"

(lol- dabbler)

i think its the personality that makes the person who they are....i think that is how it should be and those people that go and buy clothes from "hot Topic" or other store that fit in that category are just fake...

Well to be fair and exceptable they could be seekers and they could be limited in there options so to see some one that is a whelp and write them off as a poser is to miss the chance to introduce a person to goth in depth...

So would you consider a person goth even if they didnt fit into the "goth asthetic" ie clothing? Its easy to spot a poser in the goth clothing but would you say a person wasnt goth just because s/he didnt "dress the part" all the time?

I have seen girls dress gap that where more punk then punk outfitted girls,the key is in the introduction trivia ask a person who is goth interested a question and if they don't know the answer they will be intrested not only in the answer but a source to find more answers which means they have questions and a desire to search as opposed to a poser who is only intrested in the appearance.

Thank you for the response.
I agree completely. But its hard when you grow up in a time when its ALL ABOUT APPEARANCES. I have a 19 year old brother that jumped from thug to skater to "emo" and now I have no idea what he labels himself now.....
I on the other hand, can dress in a 3 piece suit, sweats and a t shirt, or dress in my all black/ boots and Long coat and still be the same person.
I think what Im getting at is nowadays, people feel they have to portray the image they dress in. (sorry, going into another topic) :)

Does the quality/authanticity of clothing/assesories count for anything? Would a shallow poser fill a closet with vintage goth garb?Does a punk get his cloths from a "punk"shelve of from a thrift store shelf,Hair style adjustable between mainstream and goth or just goth?

Following the fads, is like a lamb being lead to slaughter. There is no future at the end. That's it an END. Meaning, an end to individuality. Creativity and imagination would need to be reborn to overcome societies labels that have blinded others from seeing themselves as individuals different from one another.

The Gothic style never was, nor ever will be unique.

Wearing all black doesn't make someone unique. People do so at funerals all the time.

The concern most cultures have with posers is misrepresentation by fad if a bunch of kids dressed "goth" or Metalhead go on a senseless psoedo-drunken "satanist like" spray paint spree the goth,or metal head attire will make the grape vine glow neon about other goths in the community.

If people dressed in dirty clothing throw rocks through a window and the fact that they had worn tatered cloths impressed someone to think homeless riot then homeless would have a time of suspision cast on them,the "riot"could have been laborers but the impression is already left by pre-prejudicial circumstancial exposures.

NephliteDarkside

Maybe there is no such thing as unique in the way that you mean.

My hope is that people are more concerned with thinking rather than dressing.

Like I said you can't buy goth at hottopic, its a mind set, you can were all pink and still be goth, its not the clothes its the persons thats in them.

the cycle....arrrr

I think as long as we maintain to be ourselves and not give into the mainstream look than we will hold our own. From all the emos I know their style of dress is a bit different from authentic goth.

As hinted upon in some of the previous posts, "Goth" is individuality from the inside. It's not what you wear or what music you listen to. So in my opinion, the true Gothic culture will always be unique, because very few people are true 'individuals.'

Obviously .. since authentic goth would be the Middle ages. =/

If I took 100 people that claimed to be goth the first round of elimination would be toa trivia question air.

What would be a sample questionaire

{Insert here}

Second round of elimination.

Strip off all assesories.

Third the cloths

What remains .....?

well theres not alot we can do. but i do agree with what are saying that there are a bunch of posers out there, and they talk about is cutting themselfs and how they want to die and that bull. i gess the only way is to look at the heart.

While I do love the fashion I do not own any of it myself. It is a mind set, something that you just one day see that you are that way. The grow into, loving black cloths, hearing the music, and being where the goths commonly hang out are a part of it that is it. It can just be part.


Though if I could I would love to get some of the standard goth things in a nice red/blood red. But that is not likely to happen.

I think the only way to beat it would be for yourself to outshine the rest and be your unique and individual self. I think the great thing about being a goth is standing out in a crowd and showing the world your an individual not a sheep like the rest. So if you hold to that standard then you will rise above the teeny goths of the world.

Its clothes stuff to hide be hide, I dislike those that think they are so cool, with there 400 dollar jeans on, or with there dark and "gothic" looking clothes. Like stated before what happens when you strip that person of there clothes? You get the true them, even when I didn't were black my mind frame was still dark and "gothic". I'm so tired of people, more or less teeny bopers, think they are something cool just cuz there mommy and daddy got it for them from a store.

Yes but from that pull you find the strays the ones that are working to seperate the fashion from the lifestyle so don't write the "teeny boppers off they may be bearing torches to the core goth continuim,like punk nearly killed itself dead over poser hunts Henry Rollins Felt the brunt of that.Metallica felt the same " fan edge " it comes on all levels and the out come is infighting...however I must say in moderation it does shake loose the undedicated...because the undedicated perpetuate stereotypes far more then those "initiated" ,or emerged.

Lol because Goth is a stereotype and all other things like emo and scene kids are just copying. thats all. Goth will stay the same

In my opinion, it is very simple.

Stick to your guns and your heart, and continue to dress your same style, listen to the music, read the same books, etc.

Sooner or later, this emo thing will blow over.

Just as the uber-baggie-pants and the re-emergence of platform shoes was "in" 10 years ago, it did not take long to fade away.

Just as everyone in the 60's acted and dressed like hippies then, but now only the ones that were true hippies continue to dress and live as hippies.

Long live Goth and those that live by the Gothic!

Now, pour me another Absinthe...

I, as many I'm sure, have been asked several times "what exactly is goth?" Annoying question yes, but I always answer it as being an individual with perhaps a darker shadow with them.

So, put simply, if you are mainstream you are not gothic. You can wear all the black in the world, but if its not your unique style you are just like the rest.

Nonconformists travel as a rule in bunches. You rarely find a nonconformist who goes it alone. And woe to him inside a nonconformist clique who does not conform with nonconformity.

- Eric Hoffer

If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist, it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of nonconformity.

- Bill Vaughan

NocturnalxHeart has what I believe is the best description of goth.
Nocturnalxheart

Being Goth is not just how you dress. Its how we feel, live life and embrace what others are afraid of. So who cares how others dress.

I dress in a way that makes people call me goth, but in reality I just put on what ever I feel like putting on (be it black or not). I never considered myself a goth in any way (or any other stereotype with the exception of metalhead because that is the closest thing that describes me, or I thought it did), but reading NocturnalxHeart's profile made me really think about myself because of the way he described gothic people. I felt that he described what I'm all about.

It is a way of making money so why not...Thats the way some see it anyways..I see it as be yourself and if you cannot afford hot topics or whatever .....do the best you can and just be your self

"Goth" is a label...just like prep,jock,nerd...etc.You don't have to wear all black or call yourself a "Goth" to be one.The media labels what they don't understand...now being "Goth" is a fad to most...they want to be like everyone else to be "unique"

/agree completely with gealachlass. I never really adopted the "rubber stamp" Goth look. and people are usually stunned when they compare what I look like with what comes out of my mouth. =):

It's been said already, but yeah being an individualist is about being yourself. That's obvious. If you want to stand out in this world of sameness, wear whatever the hell you want. Don't shop at hot topic, don't copy other alternative people.
I've said this a million times, but those who try to be nonconformists generally end up conforming to a different society. With the hugely swollen population of goths, emos, gravers, metallers, etc., the alternative society is getting as large as the non-alternative society.
It's hard to stand out in this world, unless you be yourself, and if you are truely unique and individual, standing out will not be too hard.

babe, look at me... think about it... we go to the mall and where do i drag you every time without fail? the pet store, spencer's and hot topic, and occationally we get stuff. does that mean i follow the "fad"? no. if i see it and i like it, and we can afford it, i get it (or rather YOU get it for ME lol)... tripp pants, doc martin's white schoolgirl type blouse, and a corset looking waist sincher to go over the blouse... thats me... from that to just black miniskirt and a black cami and nothing from HT, to everything i wear being from HT, it doesnt matter as long as you are wqearing it becuase you enjoy the look of it on yourself.be yourself, be creative, and dont let others tell you what you can and can not wear... thats the difference... i would think you should know that being engaged to me lol *gives you a cute anime "duh" type look*

UpirLikhyj said a lot in his post, and I am in complete agreement. Goth has become mainstream and commercialized, so that the individuality that was original conceived is minimized to fad status. Great trick.
Goth is not a purchase, goth is more of a state of mind and about creating a personal outward expression of ones individuality. And that is something that can never be bought.

I say let the young ones figure themselves out in the best way plausable in the spectrum of what they think "goth" means. In their perspective, at least they are not out killing or robbing society with violent behavior.

It is all a huge psychological fault of society. Gotta blame someone for what certain parents instill within their children.

Is this not what a "fad", or "trend" is? A way for the children to come to a conclusion of who they are? I say it is up to us as a community to maintain balance within whatever structure or culture our community is based upon, and not to put words such as "comformity" into play.

As this only confuses the new generation within our culture. The only reason why I call it "our" culture, is the fact that more then 75% of us right now, grew up just as they did at their age.

I say be an embassador to your culture, and community and not instigate a distilling their minds with inconsistancies. It is not bad to be "goth" or whatever stereotypical name you draw to conclusional context.

Lest we be just as the rest of society deems as such to put into our minds of what right and wrong are.

I say embrace what it is that satisfies your mind, unless it be for meneviolent behaviors. One and the same mind we were at their age, nothing has nor will change about this. It is not a dillema. It is a way to channel frustration society throws our way.

Exactly Soul, we were all teens once hah.

I believe everything lies in the realisation of a idea, and the support of it with ones strong character, in to realisation, and full stabillity, in the world today. Everything recuires great effort today, and that recuirement is getting to be more and more demanding. In the practices of realised ideas and their firm support in our minds, everything that is supported is producing a positive result as well. It is in ones belief to endure, and form to be larger and greater, thanks to ones efforts of realisation of the important goals. It is important that everybody stand togheter in their belief/idea.

It's to late for that, it's uniqueness has dissipated and mainstream has set in. 10 years ago goth wasn't a cultural rebellion, it was a art.

i agree with nocamoroa becaThe Gothic style never was, unique.

Wearing all black doesn't make someone unique. People do so at funerals all the time i'm not a goth i were black for work it's part of a uniform as well as my everyday were

I think its more than just wearing all black. I wear all black most of the week just because I like to wear black. I like dark colors by nature.
Sometimes its not always what you wear also, its how you wear it.
You can tell a person that is comfortable in a suit and a person that HAS to wear a suit.

I think that everyone has their own style of dress....in my area where i live we have two storesss that sell the Gothic look. But I wish we had more of them.

These are all true and believeable fact's represented here. Out of all the people i know at my school i'd have to say maybe 1 or 2 are truly goth.

I believe that individualism is in the personality. So be yourself. I have noticed gangsters even trying to dress goth or listening to goth music. So we just need to be ourselves. The ones that are pretending to be goths will follow a new 'popular" style soon. And as for the preteens I think they are 1. just following the crowd and 2. Trying to find themselves. As long as they don't try to be "the worlds view" of goths that aren't true (like that goths are all satanists, and violent, etc.) then I don't mind the kids tryin g to find themselves, as long as they don't do the gangbanger thing (those pants to their ankles bug the crap out of me looks like they pooped their pants).

Thats my opinion.

Add something odd to the outfit. Something really eyepopping to the black outfit. Like a brotch, ruffles, lace, or a bright color someplace random.

I agree nocturnal at heart puts it well.

and I ask the following:
What is not goth?What gets bulked into goth fashion?Any idea how the crossover happened?

In my mind the facts are this, to be gothic is just not the cloths we dress ouselvs in but our frame of mind. The so called "gothic" look about dressing in all black cam about and was permoted by such artes as marilen manson ect. The true gothic look is the indavidual trying to express ones self in clothing of there choice and historicaly speaking the color of the day was not black.

Actually the 'goth' look was 'promoted' by Ancient War-folk.

Or if you're trying to talk about the 'modern' goth look, it would be artists such as the Bauhaus or Siouxsie and the Banshees. Not 'Marilyn Manson'.

ive always though that goths are highly conformist anyway

i dont belive the way you dress makes you goth. its the way you carry yourself everyday. just like me i love being an individual. i dress somewhat goth but in a skater way. trust me skaterz now a days dont dress the same like i do.. keep it old school.

if you are goth do u have to wear black of is there other colors

posion -

Being goth doesn't mean you have to wear black. You can wear anything you want.

Goth is not defined by what you wear but what u believe

just be unique enough that mainstream can't touch you

Blackthenewpink -


What people consider 'goth' today is basically mainstream.

_To your question, I say this:

While the rising popularity of Hot Topic has diminished the originality of what we call "THE GOTHIC STYLE," every person can make it their own. One thing I do for originality is by my make up style, the type of shirts and shoes I wear, and my socks! There are always things you can do to make a style that it currently unoriginal your own._

.:~*NARI*~:.

I just stick to black......but what ever you where it should be your style not anyone elses.....posers can just be dolls that can dress themselves.....that is all they really are right?

You are You i am Me and being Unique is always a good thing but if You label your self all the power to ya:)

The type of clothes and make up we wear definately effects the types of poeple we will gravitate towards us. I us to wear all black most of the time, because it was easy to put together. I got labeled as a "Black death chick." Now i wear what ever is on sale and fits. I want to fit into the suburban statis quo.

Nothing spoils any subculture like corporate profit motives. From Hot Topic to other "alternative" clothing lines, the gothic/ punk image has been branded and sold to the masses.

meeper -

I think it's been like that since the 80's.

I am Goth - I identify with the lifestyle a great deal.

But I stopped "dressing" in the old school black outfit... Because I felt like I wasn't an individual anymore.

As far as style goes, I throw on some clothes... Sometimes it's goth, other times it's not... I don't care anymore!

As has been repeated throughout the thread - Be you - Don't worry about Hot Topic and Emo... And all that. Emo kids, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, as just trying to be themselves too.

And hey - Weren't we ALL "posers" at one point? It takes a while to find yourself... And unfortunately, to those in the lifestyle one may be seeking - You get labeled a poser.

I admit I get frustrated when I see the kids wearing Misfits t-shirts, and they don't even know who the band is lol!! >.>;;

True it has been going on for decades, but I wasn't really able to see the mass production of punk/goth/atlernative in walmart or other massive conglomorations at the time.

Maybe they're just a fan of Danzig or Samhain? Lol

keeping a sense of individual style is all that matters. as long as 'gothic' people continue with a unique way of presenting themselves all is well...but these methods are becoming a bit scarce...stupid emo kids...

Yeah, it is interesting to see "goth" style clothing in WalMart and places like that...
Hey, sometimes I find something that I like! lol I'll admit to buying stuff at Hot Topic... They had some nice Nightmare Before Christmas sweaters... And I got one. ^_^ Then it got bleach on it, so I had to cut out the image and sew it on something else... lol... karma? j/k

It's trust people wearing band t's might just be fans. But I know too many people (that I work with and go to school with) that have NO IDEA who the band is...
Which...if you think about... is okay too. One lady at work was wearing a KMFDM shirt... She didn't know the band, she just liked the design. i can't hold that against her! lol

A lot of people tend to do that with band t-shirts lol.


Hell, if it's KMFDM I don't even think a hardcore fan could hold it against 'em.

If you wear what you like and not for anyone else and not because it is in style I think you are being unique and standing out just by doing that.

1024,

Great reference to Nocturnalxheart's profile, with a marvelous discussion on "being Goth."

This past year, I got to observe a demonstration of what the difference between being a member of the true Gothic subculture and being a Gothic "fandinista" (a person who dresses in a Gothic style, but does it for the attention).

A large crowd of us where waiting to board the bus that was to take us to our ship, to begin our trek known as the 2007 Gothic cruise.

My wife and I had just met a nice lady (Hi Scarlett!!!) and we started to chat about our up-coming adventure. Scarlett is most definitely Goth, old school, like my wife and I. We were dressed in comfortable, but slightly dark resort clothing (Florida is still hot in October!)

She was approached by a couple that was decked out in some extreme Goth-style threads. They walked right up to her, pointed to her turquoise luggage and said to her, "your bags aren't very Gothic..." and then walked away.

They, my friends, were not Goth, but attention-grabbing punks.

Being true Goths, we looked at eachother, stunned for a moment, laughed about it, and then continued to chat and prepare for our fun with our new Gothic friends, and our non-Gothic friends.

I do not see the point in labels honestly. But being yourself in my eyes is really showing individuality. I know it is hard to dress differently sometimes, but that isn't the only way you can show individuality.

If there weren't any labels, everyone would just be the same. Thus making nothing and no one even somewhat original.

Labels are as neccessary as genres of music.

Seems as though most of you are refering to the "goth" style as a ends all thing. Which is not the truth.

The truth is, no one really knows the meaning of being "goth". It is differant for all in this society. Many in the community have been conditioned to dress and act a certain way, thanks to those they hang with (Peer Pressure).

Most of you are talking about stores such as Hot Topic, which is a corporate franchise believe it or not. So what if you shop there. This is YOUR choice. I see no benefit in making fun of anyone of whom recognizes our community even if some of us interpret "goth" styles differantly than others. Grow up already.

Hell, back in highschool I was called a "butt rocker" by all the other metal heads, just because I couldn't afford a leather jacket and always wore a jeans jacket. Did this make me any less metal head than the rest? HELL NO!!

Just because the youth of the nation at times likes to go main stream with what they choose as their style of "goth", does not mean we as the older "goth" crowd need to critisize them for their chance at wanting to become what we represent.

It does not take vice to condition the "goths" of tomorrow, but encouragement. No wonder many of the younger generation have attitudes from hell, look at how the community treats them. Even within a forum thread, I am seeing a bit of bashing of them. I am seriously suprised I have not seen the term "Emo" come up. I might have even missed it.

The point is, instead of bashing the younger ages for what they wear, trying to fit in, trying to be themselves, or finding themselves, how about encouragement.

How about one day you are walking down the street and see a group of "goth" stylists in hot topic gear. Instead of bashing them for it, let them know where to buy other merchandise from. Give them pointers. Not how to dress, this is not your decision...But what stores are in the neighborhood that you like, recommend these to them as well.

No, the clothes do not make "goth", but we must realize, that in this day and age...Regardless of what we think...Clothes are a good part of the "goth" style.

Just govern yourselves accordingly, and they just might give a bit of respect for the way you choose your persona and or demeanor.

Reflect the mirror. Don't resent it. I know...A bit of a vain statement, but with the "goths" of today, might as well embrace them, they will more then likely be us in about 20 years.

Lol the term emo came up more than once.

And yes it's a choice after all.

At the moment I am in baby blue pijamas for example, does that make me less goth?

I don't know, goth has so much different interpretations, cause it's a subjective topic, that I wouldn't know, oh well I'm enjoying my pijamas haha.

(Chuckles) I am at work at the moment, in a hotel, behind the desk...The only thing gothic about me apparently would be my rings...Ohhhhh!!!! Scarryyy!!

Oh, by the way, I have black silk PJ's, does that count?

The only thing I am trying to figure out is the meaning of all the guy's make up and eyeliner??? What is the deal?

Now mind you, I am not bashing the style, just wondering.

Most in society would deem fit to call the male oriented make-up eye liner fashion well, a bit risk gay.

But then we have musical artists such as Prince and Green Day, these two have that certain look about them. Even without the eyeliner.

Hell, even Motley Crue did it in the hair band era.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.