First, please don't use this to bash any religion or opinion. The last thing I need is for this to turn into a bunch of petty arguments. Off topic/bad posts will be removed :)
Many on here have religious beliefs and others have none. Many faiths discourage involvement in the paranormal and many who have no religious affiliation are bound to 'if I can't touch it it's not real."
My question to all of you is, given your particular beliefs what allows you to not only be a member of such a site as VR but reach out for the supernatural? What drives you to potentially go against your faith to study such things? More to the point what allows you to be a religious or "logical" minded (non-religious) person and still be able to have an interest if not further belief in the paranormal?
I don't know. Technically, it is against Dr. Anton Szandor LaVey's way of being a Satanist to be on a site such as this. He believes that we belong within our own domains. There is only one site He approved of and that was the Church of Satan's site.
I personally believe that one should branch out and learn from all those he knows he can and to teach as much as he can. This is my main purpose here on VR. It is hard though cuz most people don't give two shits about Satanism or other peoples opinions anyway. That is cool, that is what makes them "Them".
I like to hear other opinion, personally. Not that it is going to change the way I see things or change my life. Just like to hear them. So I am just like most people, stuck on my ways and ain't gonna change. I am number 1, in my book.
Interesting question, DrJay.
Personally, I have no religion,though it doesnt nessecarily make me a logical minded person. =P Anyways, back to the topic. I believe that everyone needs something to believe in.
Paranormal happenings and religion allow people to believe in something that may or may not exist. In addition, people's natural instinct is to question that which they do not see, believe or understand. Or, to be more interested in that which catches their attention and captivates them, even if they do not understand it in its entirety.
People have a need to understand, to learn more. If a person doesnt understand something, they question it until they have some grasp on it in their mind. Sometimes, they delve on the subject until they reach a conclusion they're comfortable with in their own minds. However, if they don't reach an answer which satisfies them, they continue to ponder it. They reach for more knowledge on it, even if they're just wild thoughts.
I won't give my opinion on religion and this combined, simply because I'm not religious and it's not my place to speak. But to make this all simple, people need to understand before they're comfortable with things. Humans often fear the unknown.
(Sorry for repeating myself so much)
I do not have a religion therefore nothing to prevent me from believing in the paranormal. I do know that I have had many experiences with the paranormal and some of them were unpleasant.
I am religious and this site goes against everything I was raised to believe, but what I have come to believe, and I have only come to this conclusion this year, is that a man has made this church (based on the bible) but still with mans ideas, and it is my job to choose my own path, it is only between me and my God, not a man to dictate to me what I should and should not believe.
To me, religion is a point of view. I am not religious since I do not go to "church." But, I can say that I am a believer in certain criteria to become a bit religious. But I still say that the term "religion" just means that the individual has a certain deity they worship on a regular basis. If this is indeed the case, then no...I am not religious.
As far as logic and the paranormal go, I am by hobby a Freemason. Within this craft of mine, we deal with a lot of religious and logic combinations. My logic stems from something I like to call the Sacred Geometries. Within these studies of Alchemy, I combine logic with the paranormal on a regular basis. Since to me, the spirit is part of the paranormal attributes. The spirit, is content of the "higher self" which appeals to me greatly within my personal religious context. Which in turn deals with being a Freemason.
In my world, everything ties in and has purpose. I do not outcast even the slightest evaluation. But, some religion is by itself mediocre propaganda. But that I think is a whole other none Vampre Rave thread.
I can simply imagine, and be creative with what others strap on as beliefs. That which they admit (both sides) to be possible.. so if any thing is possible, then I simply imagine more possibility then limited by sensation. Separating my path from my imagination.
I am simply curious to find explainations to things that happen to me everyday,all my life.
As for religion..I have many mixed beliefs and they change or morph here and there,but no real religion persey.
So why does everyone come to a paranormal site if they are taught, or profess, to not believe in "paranormal"?
As animals with no true natural defense other than our brains and imagination, we quickly begin to use both. We know that certain things exist and for certain reasons, but when immediate mundane reasons do not suffice we move to either preternatural definitions or investigate other possibilities.
The Bible doesn't say that you can't practice witchcraft (of course it does depend on your interpretation of what witchcraft is). What it does say is that you shouldn't allow any woman to practice any magic that will cause death or harm. It stems from a mistranslation of the word "m'khaseph" - old Hebrew for "evil sorcery".
In any case, Exodus does not ban all magic. Any Christians or Jews in the Dark Network should be reassured that researching or practicing magic does not go against their faith.
I am not a religious person, but I was raised in the Catholic religion. From my point of view, everything we were taught was supernatural and paranormal. That's where faith comes in. Logic defies faith in my opinion. that said, the tracks for belief in the paranormal were laid down with the prayers, the imagery and the icons which permeated my home and city. Even the graffiti was religious in nature. I have often wondered if I would have less attraction to these subjects if I had not had that early exposure.
I raised my son w/o all of the above, and he's not nearly as "spookay" as I am. But he didn't escape completely, since Christian archetypes permeate our literature, media, politics, etc.
for me being a goth means questioning everything until i find the answers i seek.
not to take things at face value but to be skeptical until i'm satisfied.
i look for the answers to all the thins i want to know.
and being pagan i don't have the Christian moral muck to worry about
I myself study numerous religions. As for the paranormal i have had too much in my life that had proff it does exist. We all look for answers and keep searching. Whether we are religious or not is people's own free will.
As an Apostate I could careless what the churches view of anything is.
As a one time believer in Spiritualism, I see the majority of people in the spiritualist church (that claims not to be a religion) as refugees of other faiths.. so they cater to them.. very shady in my book.
I had a paranormal experience when I was seven after the death of a family member and I didn't understand then and while I don't understand it now I believe if I take my time and study what I can I can atleast believe what happened to me .... As for a religious reason I believe purely in the five elements : earth air fire water and spirit.....
Well I believe that anything is possible so me being a witch doesn't really effect me on this site or anything to what you are talking about. I do wonder on what you are asking though. Curious how people can do that.
But I continue to search for paranormal things because of my past experiences with such things.
I'm not religious at all, but I love to learn about others' beliefs and viewpoints. The closest I could describe myself would be an agnostic with spiritual beliefs...if that makes any sense.
I find that Spiritualism encourages freedom of thinking and would not be in the least concerned about me being on this site.
I grew up going to church and being told to believe in God...I am not saying that I don't but since reaching adulthood and meeting different people...I have used my open mind to explore other things. So my faith..which there really isn't one for me....has nothing to do with my belief in the paranormal or goes against me being a member here.
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TheFireWithin Premiere Sire (124) Posts: 2,110 Honor: 56 [ Give / Take ] |
Honestly? My mind's kind of messed up.. I don't know what to really "believe" in so I study, think, and form ideas.... I come up with my own "beliefs" which are more just opinions.. They're not set in stone... I'm always looking for input.
my openness to learn to experience ways that other acknowledge and except and my diverse religious background and studies o realize that there are many paths to the truth.
I'd like to clear up a few things since a certain high ranking member bugged me about it :P jk lol
I used the terms "faith minded" and "logical minded" in a very general sense and basically out of a lack of words at the time.
Faith Minded- Those who use a religion or spiritual faith which guides them and may dictate what is proper study, interest etc.
Logical Minded- Those who rely primarily on science and physical proof before they believe something is real.
Generally those with a faith have an easier time believing in the paranormal but many faiths prohibit such interests, in one form or another.
Those who rely on "logic" tend to not even give the paranormal or supernatural a thought, let alone take an active role in a place like VR.
Now obviously you can be both a faith and logic driven individual (heck most times I sound like some Borg in a pulpit haha) but that isn't the point. Perhaps a more direct and simpler question would be "Why are you interested in these things given that you may have been brought up against or currently have doubts on such topics.
Personally I was brought up being allowed to have a general interest in the paranormal but anything further was met with resistance. However, given that my faith requires me to follow an unseen force and that science also causes me to believe in the unseen I saw that there was an inherent similarity to it all. Despite being brought up a certain way I was able to see that both sides complemented each other and that if you wanted to really learn you'd have to study both the spiritual and physical.
Now maybe that will help revive this thread :)
Being agnostic (born to one Lutheran and one Atheist parent) I tend to keep an open mind about things. All ideas from everyone are considered and compared to what is logical.
From what I can see, religion has nothing to do with what a person will say, do, or like 100% of the time. There will always be the curiosity which drives people to investigate the darker side of belief.
Having studied all of the major religions of the world in my younger days. I had found that my religion, which I considered myself part of at the time, didn't completely fulfil my needs and so wanted to find a religion that suited me better. Well, what I found was eye-opening. There was no religion that was what I believed 100%.
It was then that I discovered Agnosticism. Agnostics are open-minded people and it is this reason that they accept many people and their beliefs.
This is why I believe Agnostics accept the vampiric way of life and enjoy the company they encounter here. :)
Since my beliefs on this have to do with energies and the mundane,it matters not, because religion doesnt factor in.Spirituality yes,but not religion.
Which breings up a point..there really is a way to disscuss a topic that could have foundations in religion without it being about religion at all.
My beliefs are well... I mean to discover the truth, and understand it. I've never been part of any religion properly, although I have tried and taken part. Whichever religion I consider, none have yet seemed 'true' to me. I went to a Presbyterian school, I've been to church twice, I was raised by a Tarot Reader so I dabbled in Wicca for many years. But now I am seeking to understand the truth.
I can come to sites like this because it gives me a place to put forward my latest ideas, and get other people's opinions on it.
I'm not an atheist, I'm not a Christian, I'm not Pagan, Wiccan a Taoist, Buddhist, Shintoist, Jew, nothing. I try to look at 'everything' and consider the 'universe' aswell as 'spirit' from a different angle, but one that makes sense and isn't stupid.
Maybe I'll die before I ever discover the truth or atleast a good explanation, but I'm going to try anyway.
"To me, religion is a point of view."
SoulShroude
Perfectly said right there.
What can we have faith in? Can we truly have faith in the things that we do not see? Or is it hope that they exist?
Is it logical to say that by process of elimination and not having evidence in front of you that things do not exist?
I guess I would consider myself a non-practicing Christian who is open minded, interested in other religions and cultures, creatures of darkness and things that go bump in the night.
I never knew there was harm in expanding one's theological and cultural knowledge. I figure if there came a day that I once again wanted to practice any religion, faith or path, I'd be chosing one that did not dictate what groups I could (or could not) be a part of or interests and hobbies I could (or could not) participate.
i consider my self a wiccan, celtic, im not evil just i do healing magic and make sure my home is safe, im very over protective
2) i dont judge others unless judged upon my self, first.
3) paranormal stuff happens to everyone is just who believes in it will come through.
i think also what mostly allows me to be a member here and to practice my beliefs and way of lifestlye is the welcoming of all walks on vr,well for the majority of the time anyways.
Personally, if I have a belief system at all, it leans more towards the spirituality of my Hidatsa/Mandan culture. This, of course, does not go against anything regarding the supernatural; as with most Native Spirituality, we have a firm faith in the spirit world. However, I also am a firm believer in science and the use of logic, as well.
I believe that what we don't understand today regarding unexplainable spiritual or supernatural matters will eventually be able to be either understood, or at least partially explained through science. We just are not at the point yet, scientifically, to do so.
But that is a part of being human, to strive for understanding. I feel eventually, we will be able to answer some of our questions regarding spirits, telepathy, TK, ESP, etc.. I think all of these things are natural - a part of the natural order in this universe - it just seems magical, mystical, or far fetched because we haven't figured out how to adequetly create tests, measurements, etc. to either prove (for some), and explain why these things occur.
I truly feel that much of what we consider to be supernatural is really just another natural aspect to the rest of the world, the universe. Mysterious now, yes, but natural nonetheless.
I am very eclectic and could not pin a name on my belief system but I think the paranormal is apart of our world. We only call it that because we don't fully understand it.
I have been interested in this area of pursuit for at least 50 years so I just see it as a natural part of life we have yet figured out fully. Even if some of us believe we have or perhaps actually do have the answers...society is not ready to accept anything they cannot normally see or touch. I have always been interested in that area because to me the mundane daily stuff is boring. You can pick up a book or go to school and understand all of that but the other is all speculative. That is what interests me, the unknown.
its appealing because one day there might be some pictures of the paranormal. its fun to fantasize that the things said on this site are all real. heck i even do some Lovecraft style role play. and as you can tell from my avatar am a bit of a fantasy nerd.
I have no faith so this site is almost a learning experience in the things I am interested in. I have learned a lot, some good so bad. I do not believe that any one religion is right, but if it gives you something to have faith and hope in, then go right for it.
This response comes based on my thinking about the post in the “Faith, Logic, and Paranormal” thread that says, “I’m a non-believer, but I would accept proofs otherwise…”
If you are wont to follow, (as many are even if they are unaware of the terminology), the Hegelian idea that dialectical progression lays transparent the mind of God, being as it is, according to Hegel, equivalent to the logical structure of the universe, then you have your answer.
How could a true believer in pure logic seek anywhere else but in the furthering of the scala paradisi? It’s not logical ;) And you trap yourself to go any further. The idea THAT you can trap yourself means one of two things: either your logic reasoning and rhetoric skills are piss poor, or that logic cannot account for everything. To allow the possibility of logic not accounting for everything could be seen as destroying the very premise of your argument, unless you can make a relation that “you can not know what you don’t know” and therefore, dialectical progression explains the “paranormal” quite easily.
It cannot be argued that logic only lays as a companion to science. When early humans thought that thunder signaled a god was angry with them, and they made sacrifices to appease said god: if the storms abated the tribe would make a quite logical assumption that they had pleased the god. This was not a faith based maneuver, this was based on calculated logic. The idea of god(s) was not a debatable concept as it is now. And so here we see an example of completely rational worship.
Modernity simply transferred us from an iron cage to a gilded one. Yes, we know “god(s) are dead” because we can explain the thunder now. Or is it that we have simply reached the pinnacle of our tower. Logic as the screaming bride of science only takes us so far, and we have to cap off all dissenters or the modernity program may appear to not work. We can’t include the Dionysian influences of the mad, arguably some of our greatest artists and thinkers, because they fall outside of our science cage. So we lock them up, we stigmatize and criminalize them. For modern society to work, for science to progress upon a logical path we have become a society of stereotypes. Culturally arranged and sanitized archetypes. The businessman, the worker, the landlord, the tenant: locked into classes so rigid that to move outside an arranged category automatically signals your fellows that you are breaking rules; That you are not acting logically, perhaps this makes you crazy. Perhaps we call you a criminal.
We suffer from too much knowledge rather than too little. We answer, think and live based on the pseudo-identities that many of us have adopted as the result of the non-stop indoctrination of normalizing institutions. We have even normalized god, the very most of paranormal concepts. Here, god wears Levi’s and has blue eyes. There, god wears a kurta and has brown eyes. We have become removed from the responsibility of our own existential choices. We hear the collective cry of wanting to know who we are, and yet in the same breath continue the pattern of horizontal social migration that continues moves us farther from the answer to the question.
Modernity has forced us to move away from ourselves, this is why we don’t know who we are. Faith is the only tool we have left to construct our own identities. Faith is a deliberate slap in the face to reason; faith itself being completely offensive to logic because it can only exist in the face of the absurd. The paradox that the infinite and the immortal can be incarnated in time as a finite mortal is the only explanation that we have for the soul. And to accept the paradox as completely rational based on faith alone is perhaps the spark that transfigures the actual, real, logical science based world into the ideal; a transubstantiation of the actual finite world into an actual reconciliation with the infinite.
One thing most religions have in common is that anything not for or of their deity must then be against it. That in a sense is a type of logic though it in many cases may be flawed. A person can be religious and be logical the two are not mutually exclusive. As I pointed out in another thread logic can not explain everything. The example I used is the fact that science and logic say a bumble bee can't fly, but it does anyway. Merriam-Webster online defines paranormal as :"not scientifically explainable". By that definition a bumble bee is paranormal. But it also references the word supernatural which the 1st definition it gives is :"of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil". If you are a religious person the definition probably still applies to the bumble bee since most religions believe that a divine entity created everything. I personally tend to be a person that believes in both scientific and religious explanations of things in the universe. I believe that God created everything and that God gave everything the ability to adapt to its environment. There are too many things in the universe that science or logic can not explain. I look for simple scientific explanations for things first but if science can not explain something then logically you have to look for other sources which can include religious and or supernatural explanations. Although this quote is from a comedian I believe that it holds a similar applicable point in this case: " What's right is what's left if you do everything else wrong" - Robin Williams.
Wow Sevenn, bloody good post! Although I think somewhere in there you called me a cow :)
Although, I was raised as in a baptist church, I do not follow any of the christian beliefs. Now that is not saying that I do not believe in anything at all. I am a person of many strange ways that choses to have a stonger side of spirituality then anything else. What I believe in more then anything else is myself and my heart. If you can not believe in these two areas than what good does it do you? This does not question anyone or anything eiether.I am one that does not have to see something or be able to touch something in order to believe it to be real.
As far as paranormal beliefs. I find myself at a cross roads looking through a glass window trying to find the truth that I search for in my mind and heart. So the paranormal to me is inviting. It holds an interest of things that I do not know about and things that I have learned in life. It is soemthing that intrigues me and makes me want to find out more about it.
With that being said, I do not mean to offend anyone here on VR with what I have said. Seven & Zav both gave a response that hit the nail on the head for me and my understanding.
The title of this thread caught my eye. Faith and logic sharing the same space? Impossible. You can't have faith while being logical. Faith is illogical. Faith: 1. belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof -- [Mid-19th century. < French , "accomplished fact"]
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
:) Just something I thought was kinda cute.
I have faith in myself. I feel that I hold the power to make or break myself. I don't worship one god or many. I pay my respects to everything around me--the trees, the sky, the grass, the animals, other people, etc. I think that there is so much more to this world than we will ever know. I believe that everything has an opposite--good/evil, light/dark, dead/alive...normal/paranormal. Not having a real set religion with rules for or against the study of the paranormal, allows me to do as I please. Honestly, I couldn't imagine adhering to any religion that didn't allow me to be me. That's not to say it's wrong. I'm just so curious. It would be a disaster for me.
Well, Theta, you believe in yourself, that idea sounds pretty existential to me; logical, I dare say.
I am Agnostic so I believe in the possibility of anything, even the paranormal...actually I have expirience of the super natural and my interest increased after.
As for logic, I don't think that everything has to have a logic, there are some things that the human brain is not able to understand, so what it doesn't mean that it's fake, after all we don't use 100% of our brain.
I am supposed to be Catholic, but I feel that those beliefs died out somewhat within me some years ago.
To be honest, I am simply an intellectual and curious person ~ it's part of what makes me human.
However it's also part of what make me different.
I have an extreme fascination in the paranormal, and a very creative and imaginative mind. It may be through my art or my mind's eye that I have discovered a network in which I feel safe and secure.
During my short life I feel I have become a rather firm believer in existentialism, and therefore do all that I can to enrich my life as much as possible :)
I am convinced that a lot of things are passed off as something they are not, usually in the interest of those that seek physical proofs of metaphysical concepts, this has been set early in practices that date back to early times. i still have an assurance in the after life. I imagine it to be something to "look forward to" I will no longer be convinced (though I was at once) that any sensational connection exist between this physical world and the metaphysical world.
Dab- I'm not talking about the imagined I'm talking about the real supernatural.
What are your veiws on that.
I have found that if such things exist, they are buried in all the sensational presentations.
There is very little to support such claims to super natural events, and the things that are said to be super natural are commonly shown to be hoax, or other physical phenomena.
I grew up with religion playing a small role in my life. I went to youth group and through the motions but my mother told us to keep our options open and that if we believed in something we were more likely to experience those things that have been classified as paranormal.
I believe in certain aspects of different religions...my faith is there is something out there greater than we are. I respect those who have place their faith in whoever or whatever they do as long as they don't push it on me.
We believe in what we cant to and there is no harm in exploring what is out there.
For me the paranormal and supernatural are the same. And go hand in hand with religion. All three you have to put blind faith in and all three you don't always get to see, touch or feel to find out if they are real or not.
As for myself I believe there is more to what we know and sense on this level of existence. I believe we don't know the half of what is going on in the very world around us let alone in the entire Universe. I like to go around with as open a mind as I can, with just a slight touch of scepticism & logic to keep me grounded. I know that I will never know all there is to know, I am very tiny being in something much larger than my pitiful life. To walk around blind and filled with self-righteous ideals is foolish for me to do.
As to others each to their own, we all have to follow our own paths in life. But we should never abuse another for not believing in what we believe.
im a witch and i have never been told in over 35 years to not beleave in the spirit world
LadyxLorelei: you are correct they are the same, at least according to Merriam-Webster online dictionary.
Faith is something you will have no matter what and where you go. I am on here more to have a place for my peoms.
Well I am a non-practicing Christian..So I don't know honestly. I can't say I going against though, there are things I have said or done that would make me a non-christian. I can't really say..I do believe in the paranormal, so I don't know honestly..
This is me in a nutshell.. I am not religious, but i do believe in something higher, just do not know what. I do believe there is some paranormal stuff going on in the world.
I don't believe in anything therefore it doesn't mess with my belief in the supernatural. If I had a belief I don't think it would mess with it anyhow. I think its easier to give a thought a chance than to instantly dismiss the idea of it.
That is a Fuzzy Logic Base.. a good thing I have found that I am researching.