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Forgive me if this is in the wrong section, or a dup. I've done a forum search and cannot find an acceptable thread to piggy back onto....

I want to discuss Independence. More succinctly, an independent happiness.

In the last month of working with people of VR, I've run into so many friends wanting and needing acceptance in the form of title, ownership, sex, love, property, status...etc. Ive run into a few dear friends who are so very upset (some nearly suicidal) when an external stimuli which they feel is a cornerstone of one of their above "needs" is ripped away from them.

Therefore, I wanted to discuss...

What does it mean for someone to be independently happy? What does it really mean to be an independent individual?

Where in the psyche does this state of being an independently happy person have any relation to the commercially advertised basic needs? Love, Life, Money, Success, etc?

If we are not programmed to feel "inferior" in some way, then how is it that commercial advertisements prey on these base "needs?"

Let me try again to summarize the point I'm trying to make:

On Happiness
- The quest for an independent happiness

If you look at a flower and it makes you happy then your happiness is dependent upon that flower. If you go out with friends, and it makes you happy
then your happiness is dependent upon your friends. If you go to the movies and it makes you happy then your happiness is dependent upon that distraction. If you buy new clothes, or new toys and it makes you happy then your happiness is dependent upon those objects.
If you win the lottery, and it makes you happy then your happiness is dependent upon that money. If you go for a walk and it makes you happy then your happiness is dependent upon your health.

Any of these things can be taken away from you in a flash.

What do you have left to make you happy without these dependencies?

The answer is you.
If you are happy with you, then you are happy. No matter what befalls you.


Looking for feedback and discussion....

Thanks!

Yes being happy with you should make you happy but society gives you so many outside influences that gives you reasons to be unhappy with yourself. Even though it would be nice not to have to worry about what society thinks, there is still a stigmatism that forces you to consider society in all decisions. Whether society is your friends, your family or the public in general. You have to be a certain way in school or at work. Whether you like it or not, these institutions influence many things about a person. And these things can sometimes push you past the point of being completely happy or comfortable with yourself. Ultimate happiness with yourself would be wonderful but for that to happen, you have to the perfect picture of generality and not be any sort of individual. You must be pretty/good looking, perfect weight, have the perfect life, and drive the perfect car. If any of these things are not what society dictates that they should be, you are looked at as different, not worthy or less than a person. Getting the attitude from others increases your dislike for yourself and whatever is deemed unacceptable by the general population.

I think it is sad that our society forces us to be this way but it is the way it is. If you can get past all of this, you are a very strong person or you spend most of your time alone.

thats actually v. true.
like when im out having fun with friends or something i feel happy, then when i think abuot it, im not.
or another way of saying i might hink im happy but im not>>
its complicated what im trying to say, dont know if its relevant tho.

Is it that you must be the "perfect picture" of what society wants to be happy... or more simply just not care about the "perfect picture" of what society wants.

Example: I have green hair. Most of my family still like me, even though I have green hair, but they constantly try to tell me that they are "worried" about what "others" will thing of my "jaded locks."

My response: Why are YOU worried about MY hair, when I am not worried?

Does society really need to influence us in this manner?

Is it possible to NOT watch the same TV shows, have the same standards, don the garbs, masks and attitudes required of us for acceptance, and still live a happy, harmonious life where we are gainfully employed?

Its not that you HAVE to be the "perfect pictures" to be happy but there are so many things that happen in your day to day life that kind of enforce that. I am overweight but more often than not I am looked at like a second class citizen. When I go to the bar, guys don't even give me a second look. People who are overweight are often looked over for jobs. Yes my family and friends still love me but is that enough to make me completely happy? I think it also depends on where you life. Dallas is a very superficial city. Perfection is a big deal.

Since we are children we are taught about the importance of education so that we can have a nice job and be happy.

When we are teens we want to be like the others and gain acceptance so that we are happy.

When we are adults our parents ans society itself makes us belive that to be happy we have to have a nice job,a nice car,a nice house a partner.

I think that what makes us happy is what society brainwashes us what is it that makes us happy.

Then there are those things that make happy every individual.

I can never be completly happy cause when I obtain something it gets taken away. Or else if I'm happy by myself I can't cause my family or society ruins it,cause I'm not the tipycal person I should be in their eyes.

well, I know some of you are in England here, but in America the whole system is based upon driving the economy with buying american cars. The image of success is based upon your usefulness in society, we are casteouts of the sytem any and all members on here. We reject normality because it makes us happy to have our own values.

I have always been happy with nothing. My memories are something I cherish most, and these things have no price tag, yet they are invaluable to me. Some people aren't happy unless they drive their Escalade past my bike and throw a big puddle in my thighs, they aren't really happy, they are just spreading their misery. Their happiness is an illusion.

I walked the streets tonight naked from the waist up and it was a saturday night, and I thought I lost my girl, and I should have been going about obtaining more flesh... but I walked the streets in my flip flops knowing it takes a life time to find yourself, and another lifetime or two to find her, so I was happy knowing that life was long enough that things will fall into place so I wasn't desperate, even though I had a right. Someone yelled where is the beach or something, and I know I should have been aashamed for flaunting my body, I had no idea spring had put fiber into my being, but looking good makes others try to make you feel bad for what you got, and I know it was like I was in my bedroom, I was a bit ashamed, not for what they said, or tried to stamp a particular emotion of the "collective" on me, it was just I knew I would have walk on eggs to not have people shater them in me, make myself a low profile for a target, and keep quiet my dignity.

One should only care what their signficant other thinks about us, only they have a finger on our pulse, if you re affected by what other people thnk about you then there is a flaw inside of you. People that mean nothing to us, should have no effect on our happiness. It is only insecurity which makes us take the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. True self love would make us strong in the face of the devils in life that make us doubt ourself.

I have always been happy with nothing, I don't need anything materialistic to cheer me up, I like a good stick of cherry incense dipped twice, some mango nectar, a song I hear for a second passing me by in a car reminding me of a girl I forgot, as time warps experience with doppler, these kinds of things, make me happy. The best things in life are free. Take power in that, be unaffected by the throng insults, look in the mirror and give life your best shot, this may be the best of all possible worlds, but life is screwed and don't let it skew you. We are all lucky to be alive.

I am worth mucho dinaro, but if I can't have Callia I turn into a cold blooded killer. If I wait my entire life for a coming together, and at 39 even that gets denied I snap, and no amount of million of dollars is going to erase the fact that the bimbo I bought had read the latest issue of Cosmopolitan to know how best to tickle my mind to drain my wallet, fake love is rampant, money is a mood changer, but love is why we are here.

Not only England but from around the world.I'm neither English nor American.

but love is why we are here.

I don't agree very much with that.

Just cause someone is single it doesn't mean that s/he should shoot themselves cause they are unhappy.

Some feel happy in a relationship others don't.

i beleive we can never truly be happy... to be happy, we need something, but when we gain that something, there is always something else that we desire...
no matter what we own, feel or gain, there will always be something more, or something less...

I am not single, have no real overt concerns about money, and American; so whatever that last stuff was about, I guess I am missing the point. As to the point of the thread, it took time and maturity for me to understand independance. For me, it was being fucked over on a HUGE scale, that led me to a period of viscious self-reliance. As those feelings came into perspective, I never forgot the lesson, but lowered the boundaries.

interesting question...very zen even
it's the question of whether the old guru in the cave is content.....he has nothing but the rags on his flesh....no belongings..no interest in them even...
no real friends...only students...they are all wanting him to teach them....and yet he stays content in the knowledge that they have not progressed far enough to realise he can't teach what in their hearts they already know...so he tries to teach them something...simlply to pass time..till maybe enlightenment hits....and they shed their fancy clothes....and happily find another cave on another mountain and join him in friendship...
I am a man who asks very little out of life....I have no car, don't own a home, no fancy tv or stereo...even my computer is second grade crap...but it works...as long as i have art supplies I am fully able to content myself.....
and I don't mostly even buy my art supplies... many of the things I have created were of copper wire I scrounged from construction dumpsites...steel wire from the same....and random things I find...
but on the topic of love...
after just seeing the ending of 18 months of happiness with a woman I still and always will love dearly...I cannot dismiss this one so lightly as the things....
where would we be as a species without love and caring? Is not the person you see youreself as somewhat reliant on what others think of you..if we all said no then our race would die out very quickly indeed...
the guru may be content in his cave....but if he had not left and offspring...the what really would his contentedness matter to the furtherance of our kind...?

All very great points. There is no one solution. It is all a personal thing. Only you can make you happy. Whatever it is you are content with. If you can wake up and say yes today is a good day, and I am happy with who I am. My needs are few and I have met them all. I don't care what society thinks.
Of course we have been limited as to what we can and can not do via society, government.
Be all that you can be, be true to yourself.
Maybe I went askew on the topic.

I do belive it is a matter of years of training. In America, is it possible that we would ever learn to ignore the ads that say we can't be happy without without a mercedes or botox? If we were to grow up in a culture without TV and ads would there be some other artificial happiness token to fall into its place? Perhaps some other way of acting, living or being that fulfills this base need to be "Just like everyone else" around us?
The need to be a part of a bigger group, and NOT stand too far out as an individual for fear of being passed over for a job or being treated badly.

Depression can take over very true but you have to look at positive things in life go out make friends try and do stuff that makes you happy.
My computer is my bestfriend lol

well we could be taught to look past the ads...but more than likely it would be replaced by something else....
as I said....without living the austere life of the enlightened....there will always be other things which we require from the external to help keep us in a state of happiness...

well, I am glad someone defended the hierarchal need for love that I ended off with, because.... we are asleep until we love, love is the reunion of the separated, (both Tolstoy) and love is the key to all the other emotions. So if it isn't about love...

I mean they say music is the food of love

it is like, love give music it's meaning, unless you are into thrash which I guess most of you are, at least the youngest of us, there is little feeling in screaming, or it is like opera where you need the libretto to understand what the weird alternative thrash singers are screaming hoarsely, there is no love in that. Where is the feeling, but when you stand at a jutebox together for the first time, and you pick a song for her, and she pichs a song for you, and then you pick a song together, see what you get for a dollar? And then 14 years later when you haven't seen her in 5 years, you walk out of a fancy restaurant, past the valet guys in bibs, and that song is playing:

Let's stay together by Al Green

the song you picked for her just because of the title, it may have been a crappy song, but with the power of love, you walk out of that parking lot, forget the arguement with family at the table, and you walk as far as you can because no one is to see your tears, and you end up at a fence in the night. If younger you would jump over, but you are in fine clothes now, the medium rare filet mignon 4 inches thick is getting cold, you throw the cig away, you started smoking because of her, and now you can't stop, because you wanted to know what she felt like, and not in denim when you found her, you can't jump the fence, and they are such sweet tears, out of eyes that will never see each other in each other ever again. We cling like strangers on the phone, wondering whether this will be the last syllable

the last breath

there is smoke coming out of your mouth in the night and it has no tar or nicoteine

love is why we are here

Roxy Music sang Love is the Drug

everyone who agrees with me lower your hands

these are scraps of words that found no form kgrat

the other thing, was, about happiness. It seems that is what this is all about, yeah so love doesn't always bring you happiness, that is fine, their is an emotional investment made in a woman, she is bitchy with her mood swings, but she fluffs pillows, or hits you squarely on your back, or needs a best friend to talk to, someone to scream at when it seems the whole world is ganging up on her and her alone, you gotta take the good with the bad, and vice versa.

But I am talking baout real love, when you love yourself and it shows and thjis attracts someone true and the love is real because she loves herself too, then the percentage of good love in love gets higher, there still is the bad, but, you do the math

and the thing about self love

when the BBC was here doing a doc, in between the 5th and 6th documentary I asked my dad in front of the crew something that I suspected

"Tony, out of all the famous people you photographed, what was the most consistant thing in all of their character formation, what was it about all of them that was true to all?"

My success was based upon not caring about what other people think, I didn't supply my fatehr with the answer, I did not lead him to the answer I suspected that was true

He said: "David, pretty much all of them didn't give a damn about what other people thought about them, they could do what ever they wanted and this was key and central in thinking outside the box and doing something new and neccessary for mankind.

uh huh I thought so I said

and that is what I like about all of you on this site

we all don't give a damn about what other people think about us, that is what being a pariah is all about we don't want the gang tattoo we'd rather live in tthat wise man's gave in rags, no shiny belt is going to make us any happier than if we shine on the inside

we are going to be what we like and do what we like

and we are going to be individuals and do great things, because we don't have the horses blinders on

that is true self love

doing what makes you happy

if you don't think this is about the topic

you missed the point

I apologize for being brash brazen and cocky, but that is the way I am, sorry

a

I can definitely agree with several things that have been said. It does take many years to achieve happiness but if you are constantly striving to be happy, can you tell if you actually are happy? Or are you constantly striving? You could have everything you ever needed or wanted but what if its not enough? What if there is still something that keeps you from achieving utter happiness? Do you just feel content and don't feel the need to look for happiness anymore?

Does the fact that your not happy every day mean that you haven't achieved complete happiness?

I really like what VITS99 has said here, "pretty much all of them didn't give a damn about what other people thought about them, they could do what ever they wanted..."

Therein lies another quandry. The art of etiquette. Etiquette is not necessarily knowing which fork to use or on which side the knife should be laid out on the dinner table. Etiquette is the art of making OTHERS feel comfortable around YOU. (Credit goes to my love for teaching me that one.)

Is it possible to make ANY person from ANY walk of life feel comfortable around you regardless of the color of your hair, the way you dress, or the amount of tats or piercings you don?

Is it possible?

Is it possible to make others feel comfortable enough with you to get hired for a job, create the job you want or make a decent wage if the person you are is "outside the norm."

What would happen in today's world in Marilyn Manson sat down for dinner with President Bush? Is it possible for each of them to make the other feel comfortable?

If they do not hold a strong sense of their own inner happiness, what would they see in their own reflections as they looked at the other?

it is not the kill but the thrill of the chase

DEEP PURPLE

stalking a woman like Callia is fun

ultimately the women has to concede even with all my indescretions.

Romance is a dance through the seasons

when you have love it is gone

love is a fire that continually has to be tended

proven, that is why the hunt never stops

what does she do that points my nose in her direction?

I don't know don't tell me

just keep doing what you are doing to give me cues that it is alright to proceed further into her lair of hair

happiness is hunting

stalking

then ultimate throes of immersion together

it is both possessing and maintaining love that is the happy part, the rubber band effect of two planets in orbit, not a circular orbit, but an ellliptical one, like an egg, sometimes oit is summer and the planets are furrther away, and then in the winter the planets are closer, yet the tilt of the earth, causes the earth to cool, and us to recline and huddle warm.

Too much charm has the opposite effect. There has to be the right quantity of it to work. Otherwise it can backfire. And etiquette poochachoo, the desert spoon is on the top of the plate next to the shrimp forks, everyone knows that.

Disarming people is about charming them, but people who do not love you resist the charm and the disarm, so you have to have the sixth sense top pick up on their cues. It is an art to turning people to your mind f*&^k, it is not indoctrination, it is aDMITTING THAT YOU ARE HUMAN, when actually you are a super human vampire that has a surplus of charm to seduce, it is good people do not believe in us, for then they lower their guard, when we admit our err of our ways and thought processes. There was more I had to say, but...

Ettiquette has nothing to do with shrimp forks when you are dining at mcDonalds with strangers.

If you brought OUT your shrimp forks for your mcNuggets in that situation, it would be very bad ettiquette indeed!

Now, back to the subject(s) at hand. 1. An Independent Happiness. Followed by 2. Successfully walking the fine line of society in whatever skin makes you happy.

I have to agree with vits99 not with all of it but some.lol,so much better vits99 when your name is smaller!!!!...But i will say that i spit on society and all that comes with...stuff it,i care not for there thoughts...do what you believe to be right.I would to like to live in a cave and have rags to wear wanting nothing....I strive to live the simple life but its society which wont allow me.

The Ban -
Can you further describe exactly how society "doesn't allow you" to be the person you want to be? Is it because you "need to have" this or that to survive in your environment? Is it a matter of someone holding you back because of the way you look? Is it a matter of your expectations of the responses of society to the choices you make? I think I may be far off the mark of what you were trying to impart, so can you please clarify?

Thanks!

Yes there is a need to have... in society today,i try to get away from this but i cannot...if i wanted to hunt for my food i would be arrested...if i wanted to wear nothing,i would be arrested...society here does not let you leed a simple life...its like with work...you have to work to have money...you have to have money to buy food...to but your house.....Society..and now the enviroment we live in will never let us be ourselves....Someone else made the rules and we have to live with them...trying to explain..not very good at it though lol

I'm a bit to tired for anything really mind-prevoking, but I feel I have to say something anyways. Isn't that the way it usually is, the people who shouldn't be talking are the ones who do the most of it? Meh, anyway. I don't believe in the idea of independent happiness. For us to learn and grow, it is importaint to have an intermingling of ideas and experiences. You can only learn so much from yourself in one lifetime. Wether you choose to find your sources of influence and inspiration from mainstream society or underground/alternative society is a matter of choice, your own choice. If you don't want to mind the ads, don't. Sure the majority of humanity is blind and dumb, but if it wasn't for the white sheep, there would be no black sheep, because what would black sheep be, then? Hmm? Anyway, I've been up for way too long. *waves*

Ravenas - I think you might have missed out on some points of this discussion. By "an Independent happiness" we mean a happiness that comes from within.

It would be ridiculous to think that ANY of us can exist without intermingling with others, and it would be silly to think that we could encase ourselves in a bubble and not pick up a single thing from others who walk around us.

What we are discussing here is the ability for us to rise above what OTHERS tell us we need and "should have" and make our own decisions and be happy with who we are, whether or not we have a partner, whether or not we have a decent car, etc. Regardless of what "others" may think, and how this may affect our daily lives when we apply for a job, go to the store, etc.

And what is this that you started to say about who "should" and "should not" be talking? Please clarify...

All humans have basic needs. The problem is that some people are needier than others and must have large quanitites of certain things to feel like a complete person. An attention seeker may feel ignored and need the attention to feel that they matter or extist to others.

You have to be happy period and it is an inner happiness one should seek that is not affected by outside stimuli.

lolitamarie -
I think you have hit it on the head. There is, of course, Maslow's heirarchy of needs.... and that has not yet been discussed here.

Very nice!

the puruit of happiness sometimes the way in which we go about securing Thebans basic needs through slavery

all to get to love at the top of the pyramid, love is the most basic of need

in NYC they laugh at you if you say what do you do for a living, it is just as bad as asking a girl how old she is

but the pursuit of happiness, the way in which we obtain the fabric to hold together our life, the most important thing I think is finding our place on the ladder of success, finding a job which isn't slavery

then the pusruit of happiness makes us happy

I remember reading somewhere

if whatr you are doing makes you unhappy then why do you do it?

I think it is a song lyric

Ultimately the only person that can make you happy is you.
You decide to be happy or not yes brain chemistry plays a certain role in everones life but all the same if you want to be sad or suicidal than you will be. If on the other hand you decide you want to be happy then you are happy.
I let things get me down but I stand by my belief that I can be as happy as I want or make my life a living hell
And can I tell you I went thru hell came back and here I am now Happy

What about unreasonable happiness?

Or more acuratly, establish your happiness and wellbeing on something that can't be taken away. I find happiness in the energy of life and its ebbs and flows.

Again brain chemistry plays a role many times unreasonable happiness as you call it I call a euphoric stats happens due to chemical imbalances of the brain I know I live with a Manic/Depressive he needs meds to help him balance out but this last month he hasn't needed them as much the mind is a wonderful yet tricky place it does make the chemicals it needs but mood oftens inhibates(sp) ss the intact of those chemicals...People are well big batterys with thought power..We each have inside of us what we need to do what it takes to be happy or sad its well I want to say knowledge we were born with but people seem to disagree with that...If you want to be happy then be happy its all mind over matter

in many eastern societies it is believed that the vast majority of western societies cannot survive a couple of hours in a completely empty room, that we can never be alone with ourselves and be happy, and unfortunately through many years and decades of advertising and marketing, it is very true...

Mikhail has a point....
But also contridicted themself...in the previous post you said "You choose to be happy" But, then said, it is in the chemistry of the brain.
It is both...but we have to recognize what it is.
The chemical balance within us is very delicate, so when off these feelings within us alter balance. But if we recognize it and rectify it then we are fine.
But it is a choice that we make...do we let this person that we depended on all our lives, or for a short while given them our heart, tear us down? Or do we choose to see the flaw and move past it. The flaw of their being...we cannot always step outside ourselves, we weren't made to self analyze and correct. But, we can do it.
Also, if you have lived a certain way all your life then what else do you know? That is why I don't judge, but I will enlighten people...."I do not know from whence you came but from this point forward I will share your road if you wish."
You have the power over you, and you give the power of yourself away if you choose to act upon others actions.

the brain can be fooled with distraction, SUVs and NBA Finals sweat seat tickets or nose bleed seats. That is why everyone is after money, it is the great equlaizer, for money, the mood changer that it is, attracts the drug of Love....

It took me 30 years to understand happiness the way I wish I'd always had. I did focus too much on all those other things. I wasted too much time dwelling on them, that I continued to crash and burn.

30 years old brought me newfound revelations. I am now truly happy just being able to utilize my life the way I feel is my personal perfection. I am happy when I complete a story that most people probably won't even read. I am happy when I learn new things. I am happy with the basics- I appreciate them beyond words.

And if I didn't already know happiness and true appreciation- surviving Hurricane Katrina would be enough to smack me in the face with it.

Bascially, a fulfiling life to me is one where my mind continues to grow- and I continue to create new worlds through writing (writer's block = unhappiness, lol).

Actually- this reminds me of something someone said to me recently. There is a difference between happiness and joy. Because you can receive joy from things that may not necessarily make you happy. You are not truly happy doing everything you do- but joyful of the outcome.

I am happy, with splatters of aggravation :) I am nowhere near the person I was in my 20s. I now realize how successful I have been in recovering each fall in life. The falls will absolutely happen again- but I know I don't stay there.

My family, *sigh* , that was taken away from me and I rarely speak to them, I know they are there for me but very distant, and i suffer for that even though most of the time i dont want to face that pain.
If even that was stripped from me, I would have nothing, except myself, and sometimes I am not very happy with even that. I think that's normal though.
Happiness for me is love, and love comes from family.
Love comes and goes, blood is thicker than water.

Pookachu - I'm not sure that kind of happiness exists without being 6 months old or slightly out of touch with reality. That's not meant to be insulting but more of an observation. The only people I have ever seen that are just smiling with everything...are babies and the occasional mentally disturbed person. I mean you can learn to be happy with yourself and accept your lot in life with a smile, but the things that will make you happy will always be some outside influence. As you stated, the sharing of friendship, a flower, enjoying one's green hair or just knowing that you woke up alive. If you don't react to outside stimuli, then how in touch with reality can you be.

I think we should definitely learn to understand the importance of bigger things like friendship and learning over more mundane things like a new car or a bigger stereo, but I don't see that as independent so much as proper priorities in life.

Ravenwytch - as you rightly pointed out, society in general is set up around consumption and competition and these pressures to have the best or e the best are an unfortunate influence on many peoples happiness. Modern advertising is set up to make you feel bad about yourself so that you'll buy the products that are supposed to fill that void they just created.

Ravenas - I agree. Independent happiness seems disconnected from experience. And experience is what makes us who we are. I'm not talking about ownership and consumption. I'm talking about enjoying the experiences we have in life which IS an outside influence. And while the point may be more nuanced in thread than in a bubble or out, I think that happiness can be having friends whose opinions matter and understanding where a family member may have a reason and rather than ignoring it in our 'independent and happy way' we can try to bridge those gaps and learn.

I agree with Ravenw. Yes, we are naturally made to be happy with ourselves. society is the one that gives us these things to make us feel that we "need" them in order to be happy. Like there is no way that we could be happy without having these things. Or the fact that people with these material possesions, etc, are happier than you are because you don't have them. It's insane I tell you. But, if you can learn to just say "Fuck Society" and just be happy with who you are than you will be free to be happy without the use of dependents. You need to free your mind from society's view points.

I think the key here is the word "in-dependant"

It is quite acceptable to be made happy by extenal stimui (mmm Stimuli......) but if you are "DEPENDANT" upon a "SET" stimuli thats where your happiness is "DEPENDANT" and fragile.

However if your not dependant upon a single set stimuli your happiness is much more stable. Its like sitting on a chair with six legs, you can kick out 3 of the legs before its going to fall over!

Now you may not say this is Independant Happiness, but I'd say TRUALY independant happiness by your definition is unattainable, and never has been.

Thank you Druidic for that defining moment in the thread. I really think you nailed it. Some people in this thread think that independent happiness must be separated from the influence of outside stimuli or opinion...and I think that as long as one can recognize that we are the final decision makers in how we deal with that stimuli or opinion, then we can be happy without having to disregard those friends or family.

The trick as you so deftly pointed out is the need to be aware of ones influences and able to accept them but not be dependent upon them.

I was fully prepared as I read this to write this big long write up - then I hit the very end. I feel Druidic and Felix both nailed it dead on. What you describe at the very beginning is unattainable, and what we should strive for is the type of happiness that Druidic describes.

hehehe too slow man :)

Druidic really gets my respect on this because I probably would have rambled a bit and he really captured what I was hoping to say.

I often write really long ramblings and have someone come behind me and sum it up better in one sentence :P Thank god for friends that understand me well enough to get it anyway

The difference between the simple complex and the complex complex, well, today, as a complex man, (which it is very difficult to be happy complicated) I walked by the restaurant that finally opened after the grandfather had died. It took a year, but finally it opened nearly a month ago. They had a mentally handicapped adult boy who used to stand in the sun with a helmet on. One day I saw he had a watch, soi everytime I saw him after that I always asked him what time it was, just to include him in life, and because of that make him happy.

The restaurant was closed today. I saw Delilah who patronizes the place cross the street to be on my side where I had just come from looking at the death notice, death in the family....

Delilah, who died?

The handicapped guy.

My god! The innocent died. I was so unhappy, I didn't know what time it was anymore.

People set so many "requirements" to be happy, they forget the primary requirement of being happy is reckognising you are.

And I'm as guilty of this as the next man.

Big home, nice car, high income, hobbies, friends, toys, Stuff.TM, so what actually makes me happy.... 5 minutes of quiet and a good book, preferably in the bath, preferably with a cold beer or a nice Red Wine and Coke with Ice (trust me, try it one day)

Thanks for this thread, gave me a moment of thought to remember this.

i have discovered that when i am truly happy, the others around me are not happy the way i am in fact.. and i think its not fair thus i have decided and i wont make them shape me the way they want...

I don't agree with the last post. I think joy is contagious, at least with two friends or more. Acting up leads them to lower their defences and then everyone less inhibited is themself, or who they want to be before responsibility and obligation part us.

i dont agree, in my case at least... you have to make your own happiness, no one will bother to make you happy, the human being is egosistic by nature, you ll only find few persons which will be there for you eventually

sad but true. I have been artificially happy thinking it was my own doing being happy having things...till it rained and I had nowhere to go no money to spend noone to hang out with...funny i was miserably bored. The only thing I new would make me happy is a nice warm shower. How do you become happy having nothing. I never have been. but whatever it makes me sad thinking about it.lol

never said having nothing lol! but loads of people are egoistic ;)

I would get rid of cars just so I could have those true friemds the number of which I could count on the fingers of one hand. These are the people whom around us being ourselves are themselves too and accept us accepting their happiness, the rest who need rides to the airport, well they can go to rot. You just don't have a nuff friends raven haired one, that is not singular in life, no one has enough real friends. Look at your email address list fer instance, it is time for spring cleaning I am sure, get rid of all that dead weight in our lives, people who don't understand us, we have so much hope that these peeps when we put them on our lists, but then it becomes readily apparant, that they are the same as the other 99 %, too bad the 1% we can't show our writing to, because it involves them, so I guess we do need that car for those airport rides we can talk safely about the people in our lives with people not in our lives to make sense out of it all.

Happiness comes from within, for me. I know myself, and therefore I know the world around me.

We are programmed in this society that whoever has the most toys wins, I belive true happiness is within yourself, in the values you have and the respect you have for yourself.

This post is very interesting.
It got me thinking about happiness from the moment of birth into this world.
We are dependent from mthe moment we are created. Firstly depent on our mother in the womb.
Maybe it is true that we should strive for happiness within.
To be truley happy within one must remove all else, because other objects/persons can interfere with a happy state of being, just because we as intelligence stive to understand, to be heard and validated.
Maybe the psych. wards are a haven for happiness within because external stimuli is at a minimum???

OK~ I read most of the thread and got the general idea of what it was about.

First off, I think that~like alot of people have stated~ you have to be happy with yourself. But I also agree with the fact that society will not leave one alone much to be happy inwardly. Or at least express it outwardly. There are things, that we all know of, that society says we can not do or should not do. And if we do those things then we get judged as a freak or loose or job.

Sadly this is how I percieve it works today and do not see much chance for change in the near furture. This is just what I think on the subject....

the postman was outside

he was wearing a shell for the rain

he was sitting down I asked him if he was alright

he said he was checking his blood pressure

I then told him what to eat to lower blood pressure, fiber

and I told him to take off that hot outfit, and he was like well we are supposed to wear it

and I told him you work so you can be happy, don't do work if it doesn't make you happy

he smiled and took off the rain shell layrs, and his blood pressure went down

yes first and formostg the lesson in life is comprimise, but it is us who should decide what to comprimise. It is our life after all.

I think it's pretty well impossible to be completely happy unless you love yourself and no one else. To the point of absolute egotism, even. Because if you don't love yourself you can't be happy at all, and if you love anyone else you'll always be worried about their happiness. Even if it's just a general love of the human race, there's always someone suffering. I think the closest you can get is to be content, and the best way to do that is to have an overwhelming faith in a higher power. Not like the Bible thumpers and religious maniacs, more like monks and such. I've met some and they seemed pretty damn content with life. None of them was dancing for joy, mind you but they were just about the happiest people I've met who've actually stayed happy through thick and thin. That's the mian point too isn't it? You can be happy for a little while, but eventually something always seems to come up. Too bad I don't have a vocation.

I think vashati makes an inccredible point

when you love somebody else you are worried about their happiness, I know I feel it too, now

but although there is a dark side to the concern of others you love, I find great joy in making others ecstatic

Philosophy is the key ingredient in happiness.

When you first try making a snow man you start out with a little snowball and turn it, it picks up a few thousand flakes on each revolution.

When you are older and you are making your last snowman, the snowball is larger, even if you do not push the snowball a full revolution, you still get more flakes into the snow ball from when you first started out.

That is the nature of philosophy it grows and gains steam. Philosophy is the most important thing in obtaining happiness.

I would just like to say that this is a great topic and i hope that my reply if worthy.

I do not see what is wrong with outside factors making you happy. But if you are depandant on them being physicaly there then there is a problem. If you are able to be happy by summoning up memories of things then that is being self sufficantly happy methinks...

No one is truely happy there is always a bad side to something however small. and I am pretty sure no one person is independent. Complete independece means not having to rely on anyone, for compassion, money, food, shelter, knowledge, etc.

There si a book called:
Superjoy- Paul Pearsall

Talks about all consuming joy even in the most tragic conditins (ie deathcamps etc)

I find it remarkable on how often the term 'society' or 'the others' is used. Consider this: You are an integral part of society, thus society is partially but not completely defined by what YOU are. Now, how you define yourself might be somewhat different to how others define themselves, but in turn, same goes for them! Of course, it's your choice what you commonly accept in society and what not. The largest subset of people's attitude towards moral code, religion, etc. might be what is commonly accepted in society, but nothing more and nothing less.

though i respect the ideals and intellegence behind this, i still have to ask, why is this even a topic? we are all smart enough to know what society spoonfeds us. and yes for complete independence, one would have to strip down naked, and go live in the woods. but no one is going to do that. if looking at a flower is to make one happy, that happiness is not dependent on that flower. thats a physcological trigger to temporary bliss, ITS NOT A FUCKING DEPENDENCY! a statement like that is overthought. its like saying if i would have not broken up with this girl, she would not have left, and wouldnt have gotten into that car wreck, well if i never met her she wouldnt have died, oh fuck it if her parents never had sex she would have never been born, and she would have never died.

Everyone has their own version of happiness and yes it does come along with independance.

In respond to the initial thread -"We" are always the problem. "We" have cravings, desires, wants, jealousies, etc. that drive uo to find happiness in external stimuli.

"We" are always in search of the next commercial item that will make us happy. But this happiness is fleeting. It vanishes as soon as "We" see the next item "We" want, whether it is a book, a handbag, a pair of shoes, a car or your neighbor"s wife/husband.

If a person does not have a desire for anything, absolutely nothing ( and this a a rare person, indeed), then perhaps that person is truly happy!

Very well spoken, Lord Fangor. I totally agree. Happiness lies in the denial of the will (i.e. desire). That's also what Schopenhauer said, which comes very close to Buddhistic beliefs. Not an easy task to achieve, though. I'm still fighting ;)

I have found this topic to be most interesting but I have to say that I feel independent happiness is an impossibility. No one is without external stimuli that determine their mental state at that moment. As mentioned it could be a flower, or a loved one or even whether it raining or sunshine all these affect us and our emotions. I can be perfectly happy sitting alone quietly doing nothing but thinking. But introduce a good book or friend to visit and my happiness will increase, therefore was I happy to begin with? So I truly do not believe independent happiness is possible.

It's different for everyone, though there are a lot of similarities. There are needs that need to be satisfied in order for the personally defined sense of happiness to be fulfilled, kind of like a foundation. It's all a matter of the individual and what the surrounding is like.

I think in order to be happy, one must shed the requirements of society and do what feels good to them, as long as they are not hurting any one, live and let live. Sure, Curly said it. It's that One Thing, and that one thing is different for everyone. We just have to find out what that is for ourselves.

I believe "Ture Happiness" can only come from inside yourself, but that it is more of an acceptance than a happiness. Once that is done, Happiness can be felt through anything thus not being dependent on outside stimuli.
Happiness is subjective, but IMO once you are accepting, then you can find happiness anywhere.

Blacksefirot:

I wholeheartly agree with you. If you don't mind, I would like to add a slight twist to your words.

True happiness is in accepting oneself. for who or what you are.

Once you accept you, for who you are you will be happy in who you are.

Once you are happy in who you are it shines from you, and spreads.

I believe that is what true happiness stems.

Well from the time we are kids they teach us that we should care what society thinks or says about how we look, live love etc... I feel unless you are happy with yourself and find that inner peace then you find your own Independance,I could care less what society think of me and how I look live etc.. I am happy with myself and that is the most important thing I feel that is neccessary.

From a young age we are taught happiness in relation to external things or people. When you are a baby and you cry your gaurdian hands you a rattle or a pacifier. When you grow older you learn to rely on other things to make you happy. We are never taught to rely on ourselves for happiness which is probably why most of us are not happy w/ ourselves. We have not learned how to be happy w/out outside variables. I am most happy when I am w/ the people that I love even though I know that tomorrow they could be gone. I think part of being happy w/ yourself is a matter of acceptance. I am happy because I have those things now but I am well aware of the reality that they will not always be there. I am happy w/ myself because at the end of the day I am all I have. I do think however that having other things that bring happiness is vital to remaining happy w/ ones self. Self-acceptance is often spurred by outside things, without those things you will rarely feel the desire to accepte yourself. So while I understand the importance of self-acceptance and happiness I feel that happiness induced by outside sources is equally important.