The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

If you believe the Bible is a historical/allegorical account of the birth of mankind; and that Adam and Eve; as the first humans were not stone age cavemen and cavewomen, but indeed had thoughtful, cognitive and capable brains, then one of the first "recorded" acts of human beings was that of making choices: Eve chose to eat the fruit from Tree of Knowledge and Adam chose to do so after. Belief in an omnipotent Divine Creator necessitates the belief that this Creator knew what Eve's choice would be and made no effort to stop her, nor stop Adam. Therefore, the right to choose our own path, even if it goes against the desires of the Creator, is the Divine right of every human being. But what if one does not know that there is an option to choose?

In the story, as written and edited by men for narrative appeal, Adam and Eve were both told not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And neither of them had the slightest inkling to do so until the Serpent told them they had the option of disobeying God. Until they were aware they had such an option, they were unable to exercise their free will because there was nothing between which to choose. Before the serpent presented them with a choice, there was only one path to take. If there is only one path to take, then free will is meaningless. Therefore, the presentation of an option by the serpent was necessary in order to allow mankind to make use of the Divine gift of free will.

Certainly God could not present man with this choice-- had God done so, no matter the path chosen, one could say they were following the will of God. So God needed someone to act as the choice giver. Someone to point out to mankind the options available to him. Lucifer, whose name to some means giver of light, accepted this job. Lucifer "enlightened" mankind that they had the choice of acting selfishly or of acting out of Love, which of course was the ultimate message of the Christ - LOVE ONE ANOTHER. In fulfilling this task, Lucifer is simply fulfilling the Divine will and providing the linch pin in the narrative arc of the story: allowing mankind the freedom to choose to return to God and follow the path of Love rather than another.

The character of Lucifer has been demonized, literally, by countless generations of willful humans. But just as the betrayal of Jesus by Judas Iscariot was necessary to the fulfillment of Jesus' "destiny", so is Lucifer's temptation of man necessary to the fulfillment of mankind's ultimate destiny as described in the abridged Bible story. For without a choice, there may be no free will. And with no free will, one may not be held accountable for one's actions. Without a choice, people are no more than puppets of the Divine Mind following a course of predestined actions. The acts of puppets are the responsibility of the puppeteer, not the puppet itself. Without Lucifer, there would be no "sin" because sin involves willfully violating the laws of God. Without a choice, there is no sin.

Of course, during the very early period when man imerged, reptiles were gigantic and carnivorous and could not speak, so it's unlikely that as the first humans, Eve nor Adam would have had names or much time to dialogue with a snake, much less debate the pros and cons of free will with it, as they would seem much more likely to have been concerned with survival of the fittest - But this is beside the narrative point

What are your views on this, without a choice is there no sin?

that's a big if, but certainly something to think about. can one have free will if one is unaware of the options? of course, Angels, even fallen Angels do not have free will, so when the serpent tempted Eve, then it must have been at god's command.

it's a fascinating idea - the only way to get Man to exercise free will is to manufacture a third party who has no authority.

but it could also be argued that if Adam and Eve were innocents, then they would have done whatever anybody else suggested to them simply because they are already predisposed to being compliant and suggestible. would they know the difference between God and Devil?

Religion in this story attempts to take on the role of the parent. God gave mankind free will but like a parent, doesn't show every option that exists.

You don't tell a child that they have the option of putting their hand on the hot stove, you simply tell them not to. But by telling a child not to put your hand on the stove because it will burn, you have in fact already shown the child that this is an option and this is usually followed by the child testing that theory and burning themselves.

In this way, by God telling A&E that they mustn't eat the fruit, he has told them that they have the free will to do so.

You must be taking a class, I have been following your forum posts...lol.

Freewill does exist, I am going to exercise it by not answering...lol.

Lol. im taking loads of classes, phillosopy and ethics been one of them. so a few things sparked my intrest and i wanted opinions on them.

Hmmm. Maybe it is human nature to be disobedient. let's see if I can make you disobey me, and think sinfully.

Don't think of a penis.

Okay - what did you think of?

There is choices everywhere wwther we want it or not we always have a choice, we have the choice to breath ro not, if we stop we die, we have the choice to love or hate, we have the choice to agree or not, we have the choice to embrace life ro hide and cry, we have the choice to jump in front of a train or to stop and wait till it pass.

So it seems the sin is not having a choice but the choice itself.

Usally, most people would think of a penis because when your reading it your brain automatically pictures the image of the chosen word in this case "penis" however if you read slowly, then you have time to think of something differnt, but as a automatic reaction in the brain we have no choice but to picture the selected word.

How often have you heard a parent say to a crying injured child, "Didn't I tell you not to do that?...Didn't I say that would hurt?...So why did you do it?"

I'm waiting for the day I hear the sobbing child reply, "Free will."

“One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license.” PJ O'Rourke

Perhaps we could blame a creater for all of our own wrong doings, but you would first have to verify that there is a creator beyond our mother and father. If you're willing to shell out thousands of dollars of $20 for a self help book, you'll soon realize all of the problems are your fault, and its your parents fault that you exist, and there parents fault that they exist. The cycle of blame is infinite.

how can the circle of blame be infinate though it must of started somewhere, thus, its going to end somewhere. maybe when the human race gets whiped out.

Ahh, but that is another topic altogether. TTYL

lol....I'm with Felix on this one.

hehe Carvall - you just want to see children cry ;)

*drat...found out* lol

If there was only one path, then everyone would go to heaven, thus I do believe it is our option, just a matter of if it is good or not.... Lucifer lost his name when he fell, which became satan...

great... nice subject here... first you need to read the entire bible to understand some things related to that... such as:
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am the Lord, that doeth all these things."
...yes God knew that Satan was going to tempt Eve and Adam, do you know why He doesn't stop him? cause Satan and all the angels in heaven also have free will... they are not robots or puppies, and he use it that way, it was he's choice... but we are not less sinners for not knowing, if there is a choice or not, remember the first time you lie? yes, it was God warning you... the nervous, that thing so called conscience... one more thing, a verse:
Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
have any of you ever search for Him?
I have, how? not believing in men's, and lies and philosophies, I was atheistic the whole my life, but a thing nobody could take from me, the will of wanting to live for all the eternity, from there my fascination for vampires ... up to what I discovered that really there are vampires, but there did God appear in my life and showed me that the eternal life was with Him and not with the vampires, but who I am? :X

I don't believe in sin per se, I believe that following your true will is the only option for you and all else will ultimately destroy you. So, there is a similarity I suppose. As far as the Adam and Eve account. I view it as the allagory of makind as a whole aquiring consciousness, and you're absolutely right, we had no choice in that, we had no choice but to evolve, and I agree it as being viewed as a "fall" from the unconscious unity of the mother.

good + evil, sin + virture...they both must exsit in order for the other to be...that is the paradox

Try this one on them viper, if God knows all, if he knows when, where, and if I will be saved or not when I die, then I have no free will. I HAVE tu follow the path tu that END.

Short answer, Yes.

Your knowledge level is directly proportional to the level of the sin or glory.

The cow is holy because it fullflls it's purpose. It has no free will so it is holy and without sin.

A human has free will which makes it capable of being worse; but when it fullfils it's purpose by choice, it is infinitely superior to the cow.

Duress is inadaquate for choice as well; choice must be made at the level of developement at which you are at. The more choices you comprehend, the greater the glory and personal reward (read self esteam) for choosing what you inderstand is right.

Free will is true just like i'm useing my free will right now by not answering lol.

Free means we have the option to reject the Bibical account of creation or accept it. Choices are a part of everyday life. I choose to go to work. I choose to pay bills or not. That is not something I do like a robot.

Religion is not the only area that discusses free will. Philosophy also discusses free will. Jean Paul Sarte believed destiny is controlled by our choices. He stated that what we choose matters. If you choose to practice the piano, then in his opinion you are choosing to be a classical pianist. If you say you wanted to be a dancer, but never practiced dance and had the opportunity, Jean Paul Sarte would say no you did not.

B.F. Skinner believed you were controlled by circumstances more than choice. He would say that anyone growing up in a bad neighborhood would end up robbing a liquor store one night and killing the owner. He did not believe that one in that neighborhood could decide to go to school and become a lawyer.

Carl Rogers believed circumstances and choice both played a part. Perhaps, the young girl growing up on the rough side of town wanted a college education. At the age of nineteen , she is raped and has a baby. She decided to keep the child. Then, she goes to school and gets a two year degree, so she can support the child. She may have originally wanted to be a lawyer, but time and circumstance did not allow it. She then decided to finish some education.

Religion will state we accept God if the religion follows the Bible or some other book that speaks of God or we accept the Devil. That is the two options it gives. It will tell us we live a good life or a bad life. There is usually no room for in between.

Well, God gave man a choice, nothing here is the will of god. Do you not see the will of man, the greed, the love, the violence. None of this is gods will. But mans.

K god has set rules to live by. He has made his words clear. Now the free will that we have is to live by them or not.

Free will was made as a test more or less.
If you fallow the law with the will and right to choose not to then .. um how do i word this, that's what he wants?
free will wasnt made so that you could choose to do bad. but the knowledge that it's bad is what makes it bad..
i could of wored that better but im sorta upset so sr lol hope it makes some sense

I love the devils advocate. God says eat...but don't taste! love....but no sex. Free will... It is a bitch!

He didnt say no sex, he said opposite which was "go forth and multiply" what part of that do you get the no sex idea from? what do you trhink he was telling them to do, stare at each other and get eve pregnant by shear will of their minds? Also on that note you would have to be catholic to think the no sex thing so heres a litt for you its the fruit from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong and its a fruit that we will never see again because it only exists in eden, meaning its not a stupid apple and its not the fruit of sex.

Free Will is the greatest gift that God gave to mankind.

cherish it.

Free will is the most important part of good or evil

First let me say...This is an AWESOME thread. Thank you. Very intellectually stimulating.

So I was thinking, does inherent evil that knows of nothing else see "good" as evil? Is there good? What is evil exactly? Is evil something created by the Christian philosophy? Is evil things that are not socially acceptable by todays standards?

someone told me once : THe mind dont accpet the negative words, it only take the positive.

I think free will is a natural extension of our sentience. Animals act on instinct; insert Stimulus A, reaction A happens. In humans, though, we have a choice to ignore the stimulus, or act on it with a different reaction than the one Nature might demand we do. 'Sin' is a relative concept, because it depends on the culture of the human in question. For example-a woman walking around topless would be considered to incite lust in say, Germany. But, in a South American rain forest tribe, the same woman would not even raise an eyebrow. So, I also think it's sentience that creates sin, based on what a particular cultural mindset likes and dosen't like. It's probably more complex, but, hey, it's a theory.

To the best of my understanding is this... We were in nirvana were perfect and stagnating. Existence was boring and there was no growth. So there was a decision to send us as human beings to Earth to populate. In order to grow we were sent imperfect, and with free will. This is the choice to make decisions ourselves. Given this then that is a good question as to whether or not God setup Adam and Eve. I suppose he placed the situation in play and then allowed them to make the decision to eat or not.

I think free will is a chosen choise given to all of us by but sides so too speak. it was written in that way that adam and eve didnt have a choise until the serpent made it to their knowledge in the first place if it there is no freewill then there is no point in trying to make choises in our own lives on which direction you wish to go. that is my take on that one.

free will is a part of life...it is something you choise to have....if you decide to do something 'evil' and get punished for it(jail) your free will is taken away....

in my mind the bible if full of contadictios this being one of many in one phrase it is sayin we have free will in another it says we do not i would suggest you surch yourself for what you beleve is true not to turn to one singel book for all the answers

1. Actually Adam did have the knowledge of Will, his mistake was not passing it on to "Eve"

2. How did the "Devil" get into the garden if the entrances were protected

3. Was free will inherent? How was CAin able to kill Abel

4. What was the emnity between the seed of man and the seed ot the "Devil"

It all has to do with................. Free Will

Yes free will is inherent,,,but good vs bad is not.... I believe most children (who may not know they have free will) yet left with out society or guidance would make choices simply based on the inert will to survive... It must be human nature to survive... or we would be extinct

iii, believe in evolution...
all the way.

Umm I beleive in evolution.

But I agree with you, without sin, there is no free will. If we have no chioce, then we are nothing but puppets. Free will is what makes us human. Lucifer didn't inform A+E it was possible to eat the fruit, he just kinda encouraged them to excersize their free will instead of blindly following what god had told them.

For the record, I'd have eaten the shit out of the apple.

If you give somebody free will and then tell them not to do something, most likely they are going to do what you told them not to...

without a choice there could be no sin because there is no other option to choose from

free will being tied to sin...? huhn... i believe in evolution and emergence, so i really dont have a grasp on religious stuff, but this doesnt seem right to me, i personall believe there is no such thing as sin, but i believe i have the free will to make my own decisions, and not be tied to a predestined fate....i always thought that free will negated sin & religion in general.....

to follow up, most choices we have are not as clear cut as right/wrong, most of us have to deal in the gray area of life....decisions that dont have a diffinative good or evil choice, or ones that both are equally good, or equally bad...... so how does that affect your sin linked to free will.....?

Ladies and Gentlemen excuse me...
In the name of this "so called" Free Will, God although had the power, did not stop Eve or Adam. This would violate their right to choose.
Based on the same logic, God can not prevent a man from raping a young child, because by doing so, he would violate the man's right to choose.
What I want to point out is that although God is supposed to have the power to make something happen or to prevent it, he sits on his throne watching, without wanting to violate anybody's freedom of choice. I ask you now, my friends. Does the young child have the freedom of choice, wether to be raped or not? If not God, then who is supposed to prevent this from happening?
God is said to be Most Powerful and Most Kind. If he was So Kind, he would prevent the young child's rape. If he is so kind, but can not stop it, then he is not Most Powerful.
We had 1 basic question: Does God exist?
Now we have 1 more: If God exists, what is he? Most Powerful or Most Kind?

if a man does not know he is a slave, is he still a slave? can you truly have free will if you do not know you have a choice? and if you believe you have a choice, but the choices offered you are false, or your decision is being manipulated, are you truly free? what if we are being lied to?

The whole moralizing over free will is way out of proportion.

We make most (if not all) of our decisions based on our environment and how we were raised in that environment. Certainly there will be some genetic predispositions to taste or based on how our bodies interact with our environment (skin color, handicaps, etc). Certainly there are millions of genetic pluses and faults that will affect how others treat us (but that's not choice either).

What that means is that if someone knew everything about you...from your physical makeup down to who used to baby sit you and every detail of life that happened to you (like God or a god/goddess)...they could accurately predict every decision you would make.

Does that mean that you didn't have a choice or just that your choices were predictable?

Does that mean you didn't have free will?

Does that mean that you aren't responsible for your sins?

well I have to agree with Felix on this he has said it very well and to the point

If there is no choice, then there can't be free will. However everyone regardless of their environment and upbringing has a choice. The only things that I can think of that don't have choices are animals and insects. They act on instinct alone. We don't say that a lion sinned when he killed the deer but we do say a human sinned when he killed someone.

I don't believe in the story of Adam and Eve. There has always been freewill, in my opinion. Except in obvious cases, and even than there is a certain amount of free will.

Callista - you're saying that you don't think your choices are based on anything other than your choice? What formed your choice? What made you like the things you like and hate the things you hate if not experience?

Because if taste and choice are just random decisions, how come people don't just decide to fall down and flop around or bark like a dog or eat their shirt. Those are all choices but only the insane make them because the rest of us have our choices limited by our experience, our environment, our upbringing and our rationality.

I find the comments about God watching evil occur quite niiave. It presumes that how others treat us is important, it is not. How we treat others is what is relevant. What OCCURS to us in life is neither good nor evil, mearly a crucible.

There are those who think that hardship is having made made 3/4 of a million less this quarter than last quarter; and there are those that survived concentration camps exhibiting "superjoy." Sin is not relative to hardhip, it is relative to knowledge.

I have to agree with Felix in a way also..
Other then THAT statement...
I have nothing to say on this matter.....

I think the story of Adam and Eve is made to make us think that for every choice there are consequences.

Humans are disobediant by nature,yes I think so because I believe humans are selfish by nature too.Also that humans are curious,easily to tempt,easily to fall for temptation,therefore that's our weakness.

From a religious point of view I guess free will is seen as sin,for me it's not,I simply believe we can choose our life style and live on the ''good'' but balanced side even without a religion.

I believe the story of adam and eve was made up by man to scare people into not sinning, or doing bad things, and as long as people have free will their will be sin...

the adam and eve thing it more to subjegate women then scare people about sin....i makes woman a less gender based on the entire story, her being made from a part of adam, and her being the first to sin...

I would agree with MalcavianMime. This story does not only outline the sinfull nature of women (fasism).
The tree in the garden of Eden "dipicts" wisdom and knowledge. For God, the will to answer the questions one may have and become educated, is a sin, as I can see in the whole "Adam and Eve" story.
"Believe and not investigate" is an old saying of priests.
Investigation, experiment and asking are the only ways to learn what is going on in this universe. Apparently, to some people, the above seemed to be sins. I hope that this is not the case any more.

If God did not give us free will there would be no sin as far as I know

except god's sins. god created sin, god is all things, therefore god must be capable of sin. sin could not exist until god created the concept of sin. free will does not need the existence of sin. you can be offered the choice of eating a raspberry or eating a grape. it doesn't matter which, except to you - you might prefer one to the other. that does not mean that one is sinful and the other not. we can still have choice and free will without the necessity for sin - so why did god create the concept of sin? the idea that you cannot have free will or choice without sin is false logic.

Free will has always been there. It is a test of loyalty.

there is the point that without sin, there is no goodness. is a virtuous act truly virtuous if there is not an un-virtuous (ie sinful) alternative available?

Some of you may htink this a bit off topic...
"Not all that wander are lost."

When I was last in New Orleans for Mardi Gras i had an interesting descussion about choosing a path that indescrimnately harms others, and thus adversely affects everything arround us including ourselves; vs a life of attempting to cause the least harm.

It was pointed out to me (which I have yet to be able to confirm) that a person who "sins" is reincarnated less times to achieve Nirvana than someone who follows the strait and narrow.

It has become my thought process since that this is why there is adversity in this world, so that persons who are inclined to follow/obey/persevere in the most noble road they are aware of; can actually grow spiritually.

His postulation was that a sinner achieves enlightenment at a quicker rate; but at what expense... remorse?

Occasionally I have broken new ground in my life path and I find it exceptionally hard to find the road again after; and I find, that the road appears to be all the more difficult to tread with each step one has taken off of it... but all the more personally valuable to me.

Both perceptions are illusion.

I have also found myself challenged in circumstances which I was not "sinning"
(in the superdome during hurricane katrina) and have found it equally advancing to my character, even though a large measure of remorse is also aquired in the lifestyle changes and paradigm shifts.

There seams to be an equal amount of self abasement in believing you did not do the right thing because you did not have knowledge, as there is in having chosen the wrong thing out of immaturity of character.

intersting forum, but when cavemen people come in, it must be after adam and eve. so humans must have been turned more stupid.

Well actually decaf. different race, different location, the egyptians were performing delicate eye surgeries while the so called "cavemen" were busy knocking each other over the head and eating raw flesh......try not to follow too much of hollywood or learned scientists who would rather bury the truth than admit it. But you not far from the mark.

Thank god that evolution is all but proven and divine beings don't exist

(note the ironic statement)

How is evolution all but proven
if it was proven there would be no religons as people would have no choice but to believe the theory of evolution note the word theroy, it is still a theory, there is evidence to support evolution yes but it is not proven, and i dont think it will be in our lifetime.

Wouldn't it be a kicker to find out that there were both

Evolution & Creation or should I say evolution and Genetic Maniulation of an evolved indigenous species. Hmmm

Not to hijack the thread but evolution is considered fact by really the entire scientific community. It is only a few right wing influenced people that push this as a debate or wedge issue.

However, the choice of sin is dependent upon whether our environment has given us the capacity to see that choice. If abuse and violence beget violence, was there really a choice there? When we look at those who have broken a cycle of violence in their heredity, it is usually through contact with some new environmental influence (a teacher, an animal, a location) that gave them the new perspective they needed to break free of their path.

So then, was that choice or merely cause and effect?

if you want to be stubborn about creationalism, why not go the whole hog? nobody can prove to you that the world is not flat, so you'd better not try sailing out too far to sea - you might fall off the edge of the world.

It is species evolving into other species that creationism has a problem with, not that species evolve within themselves.

A creationist would think that a person who believed that men were once apes is just as deluded as a person who believed that rats came from garbage instead of mother rats.

Creationists have as much logic to their theories as evolutionist have faith in theirs.

I am a true believer in evolution, therefore, to me, God does not exist, but free will does...

God gave us the gift of free will i suggest we use it wisely .

The question of free will is whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions. Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic. The various philosophical positions taken differ on whether all events are determined or not—determinism versus indeterminism—and also on whether freedom can coexist with determinism or not—compatibilism versus incompatibilism. So, for instance, hard determinists argue that the universe is deterministic, and that this makes free will impossible.

The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought.

one of Gods greatest gifts he gave us was the choice of free will and how to use it .

It is possible to rationalize the situation and say that there is no sin, technically, but it cuts the other way. Supposedly, God created everything, including Lucifer, knowing what what would happen...He could have destroyed Lucifer before anything could happen. Maybe he did not, and is allowing humans to suffer on earth because there is a greater plan in mind?

Or possibly, God does not dictate the future but merely sees it, and is a slave to destiny and fate.

sin is considered to be an act done for the wrong reasons

If someone doesn't have any free will or choices how can they do something for the wrong reasons when they can't chose wether to do it or not?

so no I do not think someone who has no free will can committ a sin

sin is considered to be an act done for the wrong reasons with out free will or choices.with out free will how can one choose ?

I'm going to pull the thread back to evolution for a second because I think it does have to do with the question at hand. Evolution can not be accepted as fact if it is still a theory. There are some large gaps in the theory that hold us back, aside from the fact that there was no one there to see it happening.

One of the first things that they're missing evidence of is how did the elements become organic molecules? How did those molecules form appropriate polymers that would eventually begin to replicate themselves?

I buy into the theory of Big Bang, personally, but we can't deny that the events which led to actual life required outside forces besides electrical currents. Once life evolved from basic protists - who by choice and free will decided what nutrition would be best to survive in their environments - the resulting creatures had the same basic decision making qualities - hence free will.

Free will protected us from the dangers of the open wilderness. Should our ancestors have chosen to ignore predators or the possibilities of predators we would not be here to debate this issue.

Knowing that we, as well as a mushroom, evolved from the same ancestors, and the cosmochemistry that preceded all of this - we can see how our internal operations mimic the events of the universe. I think, then, that it is easy enough to "predict" one's life events without actually taking away their free will.

a free will to all is a chose to make.. you all the difference from right and wrong and the truth and a lie , its all the same to me to chose thats what makes free will..

It's the name Lucius that means bringer of light.

God did give them the choice from the very beginning, he said don't touch the tree, & humans being humans will be disobediant if thats what they want. I dont think they needed the serpant to tell them, as they already knew about it.

Free will is what we have as a choice to make a good or bad decision, the thing is what maybe bad for one may be good for another. To not have free will then we are as robots and do everything we are told to do with out question.

Myself I would not want to live like that .. I feel free will is about loyalty to oneself and doing what you may think is right for yourself. with out choice what is there what are we.? that would be my question and yes i am exercising my free will to give my opinion *grin*

i'm not sure i think in the story eve got a bad rapp for the deed and the lucifer only said think for yourself......which translated to 'if you think for yourself you are disobeying the jewish/christian/muslum god. '

we all have free will... sometimes it is limited...

following the earlyest post .

Satan gave them the knowledge of choice . befor that they didn't know they had one really . Atleast thats my thought on it . I know that in the norse religion loki was the catalyist for alot of changes that were brought about .Most of which brought good ends to the world

FelixFelix's example is excellent.

The way the brother explained it, the doctrine of free will was developed to counter arguments that if God is all powerful, then he could prevent sin from ever happening if He wanted to. Since He doesn't, then maybe he can't or there's something perverse about Him, not us.

Who wants to think God is playing with us?

The free will argument with the Adam and Eve example also provides the perfect segue to "original sin."

Well, I can't add much more than
Felix has already stated. Obviously,
we think along the same lines...

I agree with everything he said as my
oppinion and several things a few others
added (but only where it really went
along with what Felix was explaining
all along). I'll have to come back and
read this before it closes up.