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oh, and on the other side of this, just because one believes does not mean it will work. at least it may not work well.

i have seen a number of forum threads about some very advanced and deep topics of the occult that contain nothing more than surface understanding of the subject at large. one cannot use magic effectively without understanding the basic principles and laws that are at work underneath.

I agree very much with your structure of thought.


I do not believe magick works, i do not believe that what i have done requires belief and i doubt the actuality of blind faith being effective.

The energetic currents that the word magick attempts to define under an umbrella term is the unknown forces which cause desired change.

The force that causes the plant to grow, the correspondences between the outer world and inner world. The perception that these forces have and the science that causes their change. I believe nothing other then that knowledge I have of these currents works.

My ideas about the energies are sound, the theory put to test, the theorum proved and hypothesis tested. If it works, then it is. If I cannot define it under physics, or chemistry then I call it alchemy when it operates under the celestial rules of nature, and the laws of transformation.

These things I can prove to myself, the results I need not test. Dr. Emoto's work backs this view point. What he has accomplished is what mages have known since the dawn of time. The movie the Secret, emphasis this. It is the means by which magick opperates. Blind faith gets you nothing.

If you stand infront of the bus and believe that the bus is not going to hit you there then you will die like you deserve. If you have an idea about the bus yuo will see the way to avoid the bus, to avoid the circumstance. It is science. Folk magick is ineffective, ritual magick, natural magick things that operate under the natural order work. Magnetism as it was termed and well defined by many of the thinkers since the 1400s have been aware of this. Plato, Socrates, and the presocratics. The ancient tribes and the alchemic works from Khem, and things before "modern" thought were aware of this connection. It is science, it is skill. It can be learned and mastered by anyone willing to endure the lessons the body has to learn to be able to work within these systems.

You cannot win a gold metal race in the olympics if you never train. So goes true for magick.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The universe is a complicated place, and nothing is simple and straight forward. Belief in something can vastly increase it's effectiveness, but that does not mean it has no real effect. even "conventional" medicine is prone to the placebo effect - just as much as the so called "alternative" therapies. of course, drugs companies and the AMA (and the BMA) will play this down.

the mind is a powerful tool, and it can make things happen - really happen. I could invent a new religion, invent new gods, and invent new spells - and as long as enough people believed in it, there would be real effects that could even affect those who don't believe.

Conversely, if you disbelieve something strongly enough, it can also have similar effects. Some say we could levitate, just as long as we could truly disbelieve in gravity.

Quantum physicists will tell you that you can affect the outcome of an experiment just by observing it.

So the first question is "do you believe in reality?"

i was told by my Master or Mentor as He is, You have to believe in something for it to work..If You are just doing it for the fun of it how could it work if You have no belief? I have actually made my first voodoo doll and i am giving it my all in order for it to work as i wish it too..

IN His words if you perform a ritual or spell there has to be belief there in order for it to work as it is suppose to..Maybe that is just the case for Satanism..I am learning and so therefore in my teachings i am going to believe Him..I have changed since my first ritual or persay satanic witch name and this is how i will believe..i also believe in karma also so in order for this to be done right i must be in the right all the way so karma wont bite me back

Some of it is belief the other half of this is the ability to use magic.Some or born strounger then other..well this is the way i think bout it,which mean if you are bron stroung you that have to believe for it to work,I know people who have pratice for years and are not as stroung as other that just started.

But If you believe in the power of the magic, you see it happening. Power of thoughts.

In that case, if you do not believe in it, will this not weaken the power you give it?

:) Nice thread, by the way.

Interesting...it's been a long time since I was part of the education system lol

I suppose it's because I am simply not drawn to magic that makes me feel I would not be affected by it.

Energy...is....but as I think that every person has their own form of resonance the energy of magic may be affected by that.

It would be an interesting experiment. if you could condition or hypnotize a group of people into not believing in electricity, would electricity fail to work for them?

Any sports trainer will tell you that all the training in the world won't help if you do not believe you will win.

of course believing or not believing in your own ability is not the same as not believing in the laws of physics.

lol.....sadly life is not so simple lol

Physics is natural law, because it cannot be broken. What is termed as natural law is because there is no other way known to determin it. You can test gravity, you can subject it to all sorts of tests. you can observe it nature and in vacuums,

magick must be observed in a different setting, you must understand how nature works, why correspondence exist as correspondences. You can light as many candles as you want, speak charges to gods you may or may not follow you might or might not see results. But as a science if you know the hows, the whys, Then you will not need to believe you will know. You will know how your perceptions shape your reality.

You knowing and believing are different. To know means that you are aware of the structure of something because you have observed for yourself.

Put your hand over a candle and you burn yourself.

Condition yourself to know that the heat of the energy generated by the fire, will be dispersed when you put your hand over a fire to deflect the energy and your hand will not be burned.

You know this is possible.

Believe it, if you want, or don't want, it is subject to your whim, you will kill for it, you will curse the people and scorn the words that speak against it. But if you know it. Then it cannot be refuted because you can tell the hows and whys.

I am very interested in it..Satanic, Pagan and Wicca.. He has seen the change in me as well as i have so i guess it is also a matter of you believing in Yourself also..I am learning the Satanic ways of the Church ov Aperion in which He is the High Priest and i agree that some just starting out is stronger than some that has been doing it for years..not saying i am one of those for i know i have alot to learn

I disagree Infernal. it is magic that is inflexible, and physics that adapts. for years scientists will say the laws of physics are so, then another scientist will come up with a new theory, and lo and behold, the laws of physics change and adapt to allow it. lord help any magician or warlock who is audacious enough to ignore the strict rules of a spell - miss out one vital glyph and he's likely to get ripped to shreds my some fiend from the abyss.

Good point....i would have to agree with you :)

One's belief is valid and able to help them only if the belief comes from true respect, acknowledge etc and not from fear (I have posted something related to this to my journal).
If somebody has the need to believe in something in order to find courage etc, they will subconsiously create their own belief. The ancient Greeks knew very well that there were no such things as supernatural beings with super powers, but they created for themselves the Gods of Olympus and other, in order to pass the basic principles and rules of society in another way, in which all would understand, remember and embrace them.

some very interesting and thoughtful responses. i thank all that have replied.

karnstein, you have a good point that the physical and the very laws of physics are subject to 'magic' and energy... simply because the laws of physics are laws that are observed. one of the most fascinating things i've read in my limited study of the subject is how physics can seem to change based on whether it is perceived or not.

i would have to break out the book i was reading on quantum consciousness to recite it exactly. but it has been observed that certain experiments change and are effected by the simple introduction of the act of observation. it was one of those studies on light particles, i believe.

It still exists but the belief makes it work and stonger.

Belief will certainly give magic more power, but I think that it's more a case of if you believe, it works; if you don't believe, it still works but you find some other explanation for it.

Well, I think that for one to be able to use magic, they have to believe that it is going to work. If the person that the spell is targeting doesn't believe in magic then I guess the spell will still strike that person, but maybe it wont be as strong. I think that if a person has a very strong belief in magic and they are targeted with a spell then that spell will have a greater affect on them, because the two people involved in the spell believe that it will work.

As my dear friend says, "If you put it out into the universe you shall receive what you put out." What the meaning is whether or not you believe if you set the energies into motion to get something, nine times out of ten you'll end up with it. Now the varying factor is when you get it.

Sometimes it takes moments other times it may take years.

i must say that i´m new in the realm of magic... most of the time in the past, i saw things happening but i never paid attention to them. I mean, things i could do. so that makes me think that you don´t to believe in magic to see it working... now i understand many things ... because it´s just the power of the mind. of thoughts.

i remember some years ago (my awakening was about a year ago) i was so mad about something that happened to me that i said something like "i hope you can feel it too" and the same happened to the person i was sending that thought.

other, i was in the countryside when i saw a guy in a 4x4 hitting a dog in the road... i stopped my car and helped the dog, took him to a vet and such, and i thought... "i hope you receive your punishment" and when i was on my way home, i saw the 4x4 hit against a tree...

i think that you need to know that most of the time your words are statements... desires, commands... so we need to be very careful...

Belief is a question of focus. When we believe in something, even an ideal, we put more of ourselves into it. When we don't believe in what we are doing, we are said to be "just going through the motions" and usually with substandard results. This is true in any work that requires skill or concetration - from sports to politics to parenting.

The same would seem to hold true for metaphysics or magic. Without belief, your focus wouldn't be set on energy and concentration but more on the right movements or sayings...most have already stated that they believe the movements, sayings, sigils and signs are all secondary to concentration and focus.

I do believe and for anything to work one must believe in it with all your being...this is in real life also..everyone has their own opinion and no-one can always agree..

My beliefe is that, if something works it works wether you believe in it or not. Things are not TRUE only because someone believes it is, it is either true or not, it either exists or it doesn't. A persons believe does not create physical fact in my opinon

Just because one does not believe does not believe one does not exist. With enough willpower you can train your mind to believe anything. However, that is just your belief.
Willpower, devotion, all fuel belief. If you believe in something, by the amount of energy you are devoting to "making it exist" it therefore is done.

If you don't believe in something that doesn't mean it's not there, it means that you will rationalize it otherwise or try to explain it in another way subconsciously. Therefore being made oblivious by doubt.

to believe or not to believe.. but i do ...

I believe magic is intensified through intent and if the intent of the caster is to, say, maim, then that magic will maim. I think the receiver is struck with the intent of the caster.

Let me preface this with the statement that I have never witnessed magic, magik or any other purely supernatural occurance. Some of you will stop reading now...

The human mind is a very powerful thing, and what the mind believes - and the filters that the mind puts in place for us to view the world through are very powerful as well.

Research has shown that any form of focus - be it prayer, meditation, or any other practice can have tangible impacts upon the body - especially in the area of healing.

I therefore tend to see magic/magik as yet another form of focus without any special supernatural intervention.

First of all,requiring or ordering us to answer the way you want is kinda rude, just my personal opinion.and the red font telling one to pay attention is also rude.
My opinion once again,
i would think one would get more answers if a more kinder approach was used. The last I heard we can answer a thread any way we like as long it answers the question....
In answer to yours, I do believe in magicks and the like.And have practiced for many years.I would elaborate, but was really put off by the way you posted this.
Respect for other people goes a long way.

I believe in gravity, I also believe that there are forces that can be manipulated to defy gravity.

The Status quo is gravity, magic is the abilty to choose to fly. Someone who deliberately chooses not to fly can be said to not have faith in that (or those) which enable us to defy the base law. In order to fly, one must have, by some concious effort, chosen to have some modicum of faith in it.

There is also the aspect of perception. There is no reality, there is only perception. Only when you can observe without judgement can you truely say you understand reality. The less you judge the more capable you are of controlling your environement. The ability to percieve something without changing/judging it, is called love.

The more you love something, the more power you have to change it, and the less desire you have for it to be as you want it to exist.

Well, that is my perception of it anyway.

well to believe in it for it to work makes it just stronger on your part, the thing I wonder all the time is does it always work even when you use it on someone who is NOT a believer. something to ponder..

I think many disciplines stress the concept "you have to believe in it or it won't work" because many (if not most) novices lack the will, intent, understanding, or even magickal power to cast effective thoughtforms. If they lack unwavering belief in their ritual, they have a tendency to create negative thoughtforms which often quite effectively ruin their ritual altogether. This causes discouragement and often, further doubt and disbelief. At the beginning, most people studying magick need patience, focus, and most importantly, unwavering faith that their magick is working. Over time, belief becomes less necessary as knowledge and results become more prevalent.

As for spells being cast at/against you, the same concept applies...to novices. If someone sends negative thoughtforms your way, fearing the possible outcome often makes it more likely to happen. When someone much more powerful sends negative energy your way, the effect becomes negligable, but it's still there. If you don't believe something is going to hurt you, there is a slightly decreased chance of it actually hurting you. That is not to say it won't hurt you, but the chances are decreased nonetheless. It's all about subtle changes to the chaotic ether. A powerful thoughtform will hardly be affected at all by the unfocused thoughts of a novice, but in this world, there are far more novices casting energy this way and that than there are adepts casting powerful and focused thoughtforms at one another.

The concept is a popular one which, while almost obsolete to an adept, is still very relevant and important to a novice practitioner.

My personal belief is that you do not need to believe in anything for it to exist. For something to be real takes nothing but the fact of its being there.

But.. to use the item be it energy, crystals, magic, what have you. This requires belief. If you do not believe in magic or the power of crystals, even if you attempt to work with them, your own disbelief will block the needed energy to use them.

But at some point, belief becomes unnecessary. Knowledge takes over, and belief is no longer a factor. After all, if I believe the sky is red, but know that it is blue, it will remain blue.

I guess it's a poor example, but you get the idea.

This is basically saying if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a noise. Well of course it does the dynamics of what actually happens is not going to change because someone thinks that if you don't see it or believe it that it isn't going to happen. So the use of magic or thought of any kind, used with enough intent, is going to work because magic is out there whether the masses believe it or not.

I believe that there can be both. Some people perform 'magick' from things such as the Necronomicon and claim that it works. For these instances it has more to do with that the 'spell' fills them with self assurance as surely they can acheive their goal now. However there is real magick out there too, and whether or not you believe in it it can and will affect your life.

"You cannot perform magick while staring down your nose at it." not sure who said it first, but it's true. The basic premise of this statement is if you believe AND understand what you are doing it is more likely to be successful.

Kglitterous brings up a good point, perception is everything. What we perceive about the world around us creates our reality. So if you perceive your magick to be real, to you it is.

Believing in your magick, believing in what you do will make it more accurate. You'll be more likely to see results. It's true, everything in the universe radiates energy. It's in how we manipulate this energy to our will that matters. Some people don't believe they can manipulate energy and there for do not see the effects when they do. Those of us who do believe we can manipulate the energy around us can see the effects on a regular basis. Again it's about perception and perception is about belief.

Depends upon whether you are talking about parlor tricks or nature. A cell growing inside someone and becoming a person is magic. Taking a few pieces of metal and adding fuel and electricity and creating an engine, stimulating electrons and creating light, and the thousands of other miracles around us, seen and unseen are true magic. Sometimes we look so deeply for something special that we miss those things that are the most special.

Magick does work if you know what and how to do it.....but also you have to realize that what you send out can return on yourself also...kind a like a what comes around goes around effect!

Very interesting, I agree that one must believe in magick before being able to use it truly.

I personally have never practiced it due to my lack of faith and also fear of redemption if I were to ever cast something that would cause magick to seek me in revenge so to say.

no I do no think you have to believe that magic real for the illusion to work....You just have to want to be entertained....

hah, Muerte:

There is no stronger faith than knowledge.
In fact, knowledge could be DEFINED as extream faith that a thing is so.

Do not believe this, because I am quite sure that anything you know to be true (including gravity) is probaly not even close to what you believe it to be.

I have faith in my alarm clock. I have faith in my paycheck. I have faith that my neighbor will not riddle my connecting wall with bullets.

Does not make it so. Mass belief in a system makes things go a certain way; magic is the ability to alter this somewhat.

Call it what you will... the cat is not always in the box, sometimes youmust think it is outside the box.

I am a skeptic of sorts and it is such a natural thing for me that it keeps me from experiencing a lot of things. I think you have to have faith in magick, or magic, or whatever for it to work. This is as with any religion. Generally for someone of the Christian faith to recieve signs from god (like crying statues, the stigmata, or visions of jesus) they have to be deeply religious and extrememly grounded in the faith they follow.
Why would it be any different if Witchcraft or Wicca, same with crystals, spells and stones? I think faith and beliefe play a BIG role in how things work.

I dont believe you.