The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

Most people would tend to agree that Kraftwerk, Throbbing Gristle, & Cabaret Voltaire are good examples of pioneering Industrial acts...but who would you say got the goth thing rolling?

Some might argue that the first Black Sabbath album in the late 60s set the stage for things to come. Can we give Ozzy this honor? What about Siouxsie Sioux back in the 70s. I say we give it to both.

Perhaps a combination of these two & *BANG*...you get morbid Duran Duran!!!!!!

I think the two of them set the stage for Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus, Christian Death, & so many others...but what do you think...or "what do you know?...

...Deutschland".

A lot of it came from Vaudiville theatre too.

The style came before the music that was influenced by it.

I don't even know if Ozzy the reason, but if so then I say good for him. I listen to his music and you can thank my sister for that. heh. But all in all, I am not sure what truly got it all started. I am a little baffled myself.

I would have to agree with Carsho that Vaudeville theatre has a part to play in this as well as those old expressionist movies of the early 20th century. Then again, goth also draws influence from sources that are way older than that period. As for the 'real pioneers' of the movement, I personally don't think anyone can easily point a finger at a particular band. Wouldn't it have begun with the supporters of the band (be it Bauhaus, the Sisters, or [insert ''creepy-looking'' band of choice here]) instead? I mean as I said, goth draws in influence from various sources. It's also hard to identify the first goths considering the fact that none of the early 'goth bands' would admit to being goths. I don't think it was so much a trend back then, in the subculture’s fetal stage, as it is now to hear people admit to being “Goth as Flip.”

I gotta' go with Siouxsie and the Banshees too...another great goth band that came out during the early 80's was X Mal Deutschland...and of course, The Cure. They influenced me a great deal, in any case.

As to dress, style, viewpoints of life, the dark side of it you always have to give credit to the bohemians, the beatnicks of the village in nyc.

yeah i think that it has always been around but befire the music it was hidden from saciety so it was never really seen so yeah i think that it was always there it just grew when the music came around so yeah that is just my opinion

I'd also add that Velvet Underground, David Bowie, Iggy (and Stooges), Kate Bush, Syd Barrett, Gen X, Ramones, the earlier punk movement bands etc. all had very large influence, even Johnny Cash.

Then from a fashion point of view I see the 1800s as the style for goth, the funeral gowns, and spats, the dark parlor games, and reading circles, Mary Kelly and her minions... set the genre rolling.

i say it was the era of the dark ages and the darker victorian era added with modern day creativity for goths

I like to think it started with people that got plenty sick of the artificially brightened world that was being created around them. I mean the thought that all that new leisure could ruin critical thinking, and stifle the imagination, has merit.

There has always been something beautiful about pale skin and painted faces. Pale skin especially. If you look through history books of beauty, the powdered white look has been quite popular.

Something as big as "Goth" must have so many different factors when it comes to what influenced it and started it.

-music
-models
-photography
-people in general
-movies
-history

on and on the list could go...I don't think there is one type of Goth either, so some were probably inspired by one area such as music more than they were by history.

You have to remember that Goth has been around well before the style hit the music scene in the 80's. Starting with the tribe of Germans that were called "Goths" and were quite violent and date back to 476 after the fall of the Roman empire and were considered rude and barbaric. Then the Gothic architecture during the Medieval period, which was ecclesiastical. Also Gothic literature which are works that have the supernatural prevalent and social outcasts. Including the plays Hamlet and Macbeth by Shakespeare.

For the modern goth movement, I would credit Siouxsie and the Banshees and Joy Division. I also like to think that if glam and metal had a baby, it would be goth.

The modern goth movement is a continuation of an ebb and flow in modern history since the Age of Enlightenment. The Romantic era in the late 18th and early 19th century is very gothic (Frankenstein) and the Decadent movement of the late 19th century and early 20th century is also gothic (Dracula). Notice how a new goth movement happens around the turn of each century.

As far as dress styles, let's not forget the pre-Raphaelites!
(My parents were total black-clad beatnicks in the late 50's to early 60's in San Francisco).

pandorabox I will have to agree with you. I remember something like that, that was mention in my college history class called Western Civilization and I remember how barbaric these many Pioneers were back in history and how they were consider goth because of the way they dealt with society and the laws that goven them

being that goth was actually a type of building structure ...way back when and such to bring it to us as we know it in people i would say KISS with thier make up and wild ways started it and ozzy and sabbath being dark and all kinda just was a mixing pot i mean seriously folks peoples dont know where the line is drawn bwtween GOTH/ PUNK/ EMO and FREAK it is just labels but what are you at heart is what is the true nature of ones self

Goth, like all the other trends and labels, have not been "created" or "established" by one single person, or even a group of people. These trends were created and established by all people, because if everyone didn't accept these trends and advertise them, they would never come about.

This question is clearly focused on music, and it is a good question; please don't de-rail it.

I thought some of the earliest important goth influences, particulary leaning toward later development of industrial were Nitzer Ebb, Front 242, Skinny Puppy, Clock DVA, and so on. I think Depeche Mode had a very significant influence on the young goth music movement as well. Certainly it can't be discounted that moody classical music was a heavy influence as evidenced by so many bands already named...Christian Death coming immediately to mind. One of the earliest movies that I would say gives a good cultural example of this is "The Hunger". The movie is replete with haunting famous pieces such as "Lakme" by Delibes and my personal favorite, "Trio in E Flat" by Schubert. I know that I am biased, but I think modern goth music owes a big debt of gratitude to the Germans.

Goth is beautiful in so many ways.

Let us not forget the influence of german films like Metropolis. Film Noir... any black and white really. It was nessesary to give the characters pop on the silver screen to have that certain glam style.

In my eyes goth has a music and a fashion code that generally goes with it ... however the undercore of goth is to live without fear of dying... to live each day to it's fullest... to even revel in what scares others about dying.

This aspect of goth has always been arround... so has avant guard music and dress; the two go hand in hand back through the ages... you could never trace it's origin; as only god creates from vacuum (ahem)

I would have to agree with Anann, I don't think there is ONE type of goth- labeled and boxed up in one dress code, aesthetic/musical taste; there might be common themes present but basically it’s all up to each individual in the end. As I previously said, we can't point a finger at one particular group so easily because the influences of Goth are not limited to the music scene. The music scene, in my opinion, only took up a style or look that was already there. SilentRunning made a point when he said 'how far would you go?' in asking what started Goth. We've already turned the pages all the way back to the Dark Ages, and maybe some even way before that. I think a better question would be when did goth begin to sort itself out of all the elements (period styles, literature, music, aesthetics) clouding around it?

^^ perhaps, but that would be a topic for a different thread. Please concentrate on answering the question the thread poster asks.

SILENTRUNNING,

Once again you are a grand volume of knowledge and provide insight to our music-cultural history. Your discussion crawls into those deep, dark corners to not only find the established Goth, but to go deeper into the roots of Goth music.

For me, personnally, I have to say that I give credit of origin of Goth to Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Cure. They are not only the first Gothic acts that I was introduced to, but they also should be given credit for solidifying the style into something that others could base their music on.

We've covered Gothic elitism by discussing the origins and evolution of punk, and we have now discussed the origins of Gothic, we now need a thread to chat about my favorite...industrial.

Bauhaus, The Cure, and Clock DVA are a great start.

I found this at www.flexeuropa.com

During the Romantic Movement, around 1800, many people felt attracted to the past and a revival of gothic and medieval things came into fashion. Romanticism emerged as a reaction to the rationalism of the Enlightenment. Emotive, nonrational aspects were central to the movement, and the creative power of the individual. Romantics wanted to escape from the concrete historical situation. They used various ways to achieve that goal: some looked back to the medieval past, some sought it in religion or the supernatural, others tried to find it in Nature. During the Romantic period gothic became associated with the dark, the strange, the bizarre. Many symbols and themes in Romantic art have remarkable similarities wih the present gothic subculture. Romantic and Decadent writers like Byron, Shelley, Baudelaire and Verlaine were interested in the darker realms of human conscience and experience. Sexual obsessions played an important role in Romantic literature, books of that period contain many femmes fatales ("la belle dame sans merci") and various sinful agonies of delight. To learn about the Romantic erotic sensibility, I advise the classic study The Romantic Agony by Mario Praz. The Romantic spirit was also clear in the visual arts. Painters like Caspar David Friedrich had a preference for dark, desolate landscapes. In architecture, a neo-gothic style was fashionable in the nineteenth century. Especially churches were build with gothic facades, to remind of the Age of Faith.

personally I think it was all about art and the dark but very creative people is how it started, look at any of the poetry from the 1800 romantic era from shelley to lord byron or mary shelley's frankenstien

OK, seriously, answer the friggin question posted or I will delete everything here off topic. Read the damn question, this is not an opportunity for you to go off all free style about what you think about the WORD "goth" means. There have been multitudes of the "what is goth" question...this is an ORIGINAL QUESTION, please respect the member who is asking it. READ THE QUESTION.

Technically, the question was if I am not mistaken "who got the goth thing rolling." He doesn't seem to limit it to music or the start of what I would think would be the modern era of goth music. While I do think goth does take its origins from many different periods, the modern take of goth was at least in my opinion made popular by the bands Siouxee and Baushaus. It would be interesting to know the influences that had an effect on this era of bands.

SEVENN EDIT: Consider the two preceeding paragraphs, and the following three-ish, and try to make an intelligent leap.

Well obviously...Bauhaus wasn't influenced by medieval European cathedrals of a duly named architecture...but they DID get their name from a German school that happens to be noted for its architectural style...The Bauhaus ;-]

Rock music has existed since the 50s...with roots stemming back into the first few decades of the 20th century...& perhaps a little bit earlier.

Of course this thread is about music...& not Germanic tribes & cathedrals. It's about a style of music that is basically a morbid mix of punk & new wave pop. It has a loosely defined & underwritten history...so I decided that we should put our heads together & write it here.

I find that on this forum you have to be overly specific on what you ask or you get a bunch of crap back. notice i did stick to music.

while i am not familiar with the 50s, i did learn a little about the change in the social acceptance in the "rock" type of the music in the 30s during the prohibitation time fram. I think i spelled that right. I wish i could go back and edit "Siouxee". every generation it seems tends to create a rebelleous type of music which tends to be the next generations accepted music style. Look at all the bands that have grown out of the 70s and 80s. Today, you have Ramstein which has become world wide popular.

SEVENN EDIT:Don't be so sensitive. Here is your quote, "He doesn't seem to limit it to music or the start of what I would think would be the modern era of goth music."

And yet, by his own words, he is! I'm not trying to attack you Necrop, only to keep the guys thread on track.

Lmao. Has the question been answered yet? I personaly can't decide which band to put the blame on. But maybe if I should choose just one, I'd say Bauhaus did it, with Bela Lugosi's Dead. Then again it could have been Siouxsie and the Banshees, too. Oh boy, this is going to plague me tonight.

I wanna hear the goth Duran Duran.

Not sure that any musician could be credited for the movement of goth. Think it came around long before the music actually got into the swing of it. Would have to agree with Carsho on this one as well.

Alice Cooper is one of the originals for sure ive heard ozzy say he was a major influence on him.

(w00t I'm on topic so sevenn doesn't have to yell at me ;-D)

SEVENN EDIT: HA...funny C...little smart*ss ;)

I thought Andy from Sex Gang Children was the first person referred to as a 'goth' or at least he claims that title.

Props to Ade for bringing up the Damned. They were one of those few initial bands that made the connection between punk and dark horror that gave rise to bands like Siouxsie and the Cult. Of course I can't mention goth origins without bringing up Bauhaus. While they may not have been the first to go dark and horror, their style musically and visually became the prime template for many many bands to follow.

The Velvet Underground for me are the first goth band - dark, introspective and painfully stylised.

Felix that would be the love of my life 'Ian Astbury' who first coined the term "goths" when describing the Sex Gang Children's fans :P

Sorry if you said Black Sabbath was goth, your wrong, Ive been around seen the band live and its not that way. Cruxshadows on the other hand is. What probably makes a goth band is its dark lyrics and constant New music of settings and whats going on. Would you say Cooper is goth or Blue Oyster cult is goth. Not. The modern new bands like Manson are different and hold together a new meaning for goth rock as it is termned, something in the way they have deemed in their generation of music unique, cold, with deep lyrics along with a show that puts them in that bracket of goth music. IMHO

Dark lyrics? In the late 60s...Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath was about the darkest album you could purchase in a record store...yet they never claimed to be goth...& I'm not saying they are. I'm talking about history...& bands that influenced the bands of the last 25+ years. I mean...f you really wanna get technical...Siouxsie Sioux considered herself punk before anything else...but she played a large role in making the goth scene. What Ozzy did in the 60s...has nothing to do with a modern Ozzfest show!!!!!!

Hip-Hop has a very defined history...with roots stemming in many directions from several New York City burrows. Even though Hip-Hop is a lifestyle & state of mind that goes WAY beyond just the music...it has been defined who the pioneers of the music are. Why would that be so difficult to do for goth music? It wouldn't.

Mentioning influential theatre & the like IS completely relevant for this topic. It's history which adds to the story...& is interesting information for people who enjoy goth music. The same holds true for finding goth themes in music prior to the 1970s. Have fun with this!!!!!!

Then we can bring it all together...& *BANG* the history of goth music has been written. Let's do it!!!!!!

OK a more relevant example is probably Punk.

People were already 'punk' before the music came around. The look and mindset were already prevalent is subsections of society. Once the culture is then set, people change the boundaries of music to suit the sub-culture. The music is created by the culture, not the ,usic creating the culture.

Siouxie, Bahaus, etc all made the music for the culture.

Good point. People were punk before the music. Wasn't "Generation X" with Billy Idol credited as being the first punk band back in 1974? I wonder if other bands influenced "Generation X" that came out in the late 60s & early 70s...if not earlier. Now back to goth..

Good point as well. My introduction to punk in my po-dunk area of NC, was actually through an earlier follower and stylist of punk. He dress style, in my opinon was the beginings of a Gothic look, yet her primary tastes where in punk.

Real tough to be punk and Gothic in a town that only believed in country, gospel, and big hair bands...

Glad I left when I could.

And it still boils down to a mind set.

I rarely dress the part, I somewhat look the part, but most important I feel the part as I live my life.

The rare opportunites that I get to dress and dance the part are what solidify my interest in the style, the music, and the people.

Gothic Rock is not what most goths listen to...

VNV, Combi, ZG, MM, or Skinnny Puppy for instance are definately NOT goth rock.

If I knew more about the mechanics of music I would be able to explain the difference in style better... I could lable it for you and tell you that this emerged from that... and had influences from here... and so on... but it wouldn't be proper for me to say that Gothic Rock, has a droning vocal quality over a (what is now considered) a moderate backbeat; the way ska generally has horns.

You could almost say Louis Louis with it's poor production quality was an influence *laughs*

I think that Ozzy, The Cure were a great influence it all depends also on the age of who is speaking, since a pioneer for one might not be a pioneer for another

I also got to say David Bowie in his early times 1969) then with the Labyrinth and his music at that period. to me was a pioneer.

Wow, I didnt even think of David Bowie, but I definitely agree. He does have a way of bringing out the darkness in any subject.

Bauhaus DID cover Ziggy Stardust...which shows that they were indeed influenced by Bowie...but the movie Labyrinth came out in 1986.

This following is taken from.. http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm

Early Influences:

The immediately obvious influences are Joy Division, Bauhaus and Siouxsie, all of whom are covered in the bands section.

However, amongst the punk and post-punk scene were several other bands who had definite influences on the early goth scene.

One such band were Adam and the Ants.

This may seem strange now, as Adam and the Ants are known mainly for their (or rather Adam's) later pop career, but before the pop career took off they were "art-school punk" with several parallels to the later goth scene, not least their emphasis on fetish imagery and use of sparse guitear and tribal drums. Certainly a fair few early goth bands seem to have been influenced by them, particularly Sex Gang Children and Southern Death Cult.

Mick Mercer kindly sent me some photos of the Ants which strikingly demonstrate their similarity in style to early goth bands.

Another band who may have had some influence are the little-known Gloria Mundi. According to Mick Mercer, they had a "goth" sound and imagery by about 1978. Their influence on other people and bands was probably quite limited as they were never very popular, but Mick maintains that Bauhaus underwent a serious image change after appearing on the same bill as Gloria Mundi.

A much better-known band who some people do consider as an influence were The Damned, but beyond Dave Vanian's image (and perhaps one of their later albums) I can see no real goth connection or influence at all (if anyone does know of definite connections or influences, email me)

(well, someone did email me, so thanks to James Lopez for this)

Further back, the pre-punk origins of goth can be argued endlessly, and have been. However, the most important influences on the early goth bands outside of punk were probably the Doors, the Velvet Underground and Bowie, as well as the 70s "glam" scene (T.Rex, Sweet, and perhaps Roxy Music).

Bowie in particular was very influential- apart from being a major influence on bands musically, he was responsible for much of the "glam" look and scene which influenced both goth and New Romantic.

And in 1974 he described "Diamond Dogs" as "gothic", something that may have had something to do with both Hannett and Siouxsie's use of the term.

Interestingly, since I wrote the above, I came across the following quote about Siouxsie from Nick Kwnt in the NME, 29/7/98:

Parallels and comparisons can now be drawn with gothic rock architects like The Doors and, certainly, early Velvet Underground.

healer I sugest kindly you stop as ax74 pointed you are not psoting relevent info and are actually according to the vr manual spamming the threads. So stop before you get your positng rights supended and all the post you did deleted by dominars.


now on topic:

I agree the movie was later, it just sort of influenced me a lot also the music itself that Bowie shared with the world. I think he was following the flow while staying in his style and beleif, keeping a constant goth style while evolving.

I admit his 1969 beganing were more impressive when it comes to style. but I was not born yet when the movie came out I was in the age of "influence" lol must be why he is a pioneer to me.

Still Ozzy did make an impression and still does today.

Everytime I try to search something, I find that no one really knows who but mostly Bauhaus, Sixiousie and The Banshees and other bands already mentioned tend to get stereotyped as the grandparents of gothic music.

However mostly they weren't labelled for their music but for their style of clothing and lyrics. In fact I think Ozzy's music is not gothic, but his appearance yes. The Cure-look at Robert's Smith appearence and Bauhaus: their first song-Bella Lugosi is Dead lyrics, taken from the movie Bella Lugosi, a vampire. But I guess no one really knows, for there is more than one interpretetion of what goth is, the same happens with gothic music and its influence.

No one really invented this type of music, people decided to label them as gothic.

Old school gothic bands have a different sound from today's goth, but today's goth has developed other sub genres too. So I found it more difficult to get what really gothic music is, but the difference from other types of metal and punk I saw it, even though they have stuff in common.

No surprise I heard gothic came from punk, but I more believe that people got fed up of punk and wanted a different type of genre like it happens in every generation, so yeah gothic music came and with it gothic clothing etc...then it got popular universally and with it developed sub genres of music, clothing and life styles.

Anyway gothic music but especially old school goth is my favourite genre, damn how I wish I was this age during the gothic era!

I also think of punk bands, like Duran Duran etc, and heavy metal bands had a lot to do with the establishment of "Goth" Except in those days there were called rock n' rollers, and nowadays they are called goth.

Yes in fact old school goth is also known as gothic rock rather than just goth (excluding the other types of goth-like gothic metal,gothic punk,industrial goth,electro goth, technogoth, etc...) like nowadays. One should aslo mention that goth influenced other types and from it came ebm,darkwave and other styles got from it.

Others even argue that it was called goth rock n roll in the beginning, which honestly it makes me giggle to see the two terms in the same sentence. But hey when something is new, it can't be defined as old school!

Black Sabbath took their blues sound into a darker place, influenced more by horror, than actual Gothic style.

Siouxsie & the Banshees didn't really have the same kind of reach into the darker side as Bauhaus did, so even though they were from the same group of early New Wave of Punk, they can't really be credited with being the first Goth rock band.

Still from the same group, The Cure didn't go Gothic until much later and even then, only briefly.

Bauhaus were probably the first band to directly influence most of the rest of the Goth-rock bands from the Eighties onwards.

i would say ozzy as well but i think he is just the first mainstream artist.and who did he get it from?

STABB666 -

Actually, Joy Division and Siouxsie and the Banshees are usually credited with the 'gothic' sound from the few albums they put out near the end of the 1970's.

im not quiet sure who stared it but i think ozzy did

Singularity,

I disagree. It wasn't until Kenny Morris was replaced by Budgie on drums that The Banshees stopped doing punk, which was closer to the Eighties.

Again, with Joy Division, they were stuck on their punk style until just before Ian Curtis topped himself. I'd argue that they were more Goth as New Order.

In contrast, Bauhaus started as a Goth band as a core concept, not an evolution of post-punk.

I will defer to STABB's observations on this. Bauhaus would definitly get the credit as being the first a Goth band formed from the ground up with the intent of playing Goth style.

Many of the other bands who have received their Goth credentials did indeed start off with a different initial sound, but grew into the Goth sound over time.

The Banshees and The Cure were instrumental in helping to popularize the Gothic sound to the masses. They can at least receive an honorable mention and still retain the label as "Pioneer" since they helped to settle the sound of Goth to the masses.

For all of the people who name Ozzy, I question this...was it Ozzy or was it Black Sabbath that you are refering to?

Understand that Ozzy did not become a solo act until 1979, while the other bands we have referenced were producing music mush earlier (Bauhaus 1978, The Cure 1976, The Banshees 1976)

Also, I am not seeing anywhere that list Ozzy or Black Sabbath as a Gothic styled band, but rather a metal band that uses "occult and horror-inspired lyrics with tuned-down guitars."

Just curious to know the source of your choice.

I used to listening to Ozzy as I teenager but it had nothing to do with being a goth just at that time I liked his music

Gothic took a while to develop and there were many early influences. I've always held Kraftwerk to be the pioneers of techno / industrial, but i always saw Black Sabbath as heavy metal. they undoubtedly influenced Goth though, but then so did The Doors. i think the Doors influenced Goth to a greater degree than Black Sabbath.

before Goth was used to describe that particular style and music, the term used to describe them was "New Romantics", and many of the bands had been formerly regarded as Punk or New Wave. Soft Cell, Human League, the Jam, the Stranglers, Spandau Ballet were all there at the early days. the Eurythmics were also an influence, and what about Adam and the Ants? not sure if you would class them as Goth, but quite definetely amongst the early New Romantics.

the clothing style was largely influenced by the old black and white movies - not just horror films like Dracula, but also the old Errol Flynn movies and Douggie Fairbanks. Pirate movies were just as much an influence on the style as the old universal horror movies.

much of the attraction has to be the clothing. by the end of the seventies, glam was out, and there was very little for men to wear. nightclubs didn't allow jeans (and jeans were getting old hat anyway), cords were going out of fashion, so all that left was the three piece. Travolta gave that a new twist in SNF, but for most clubbers, there was no real alternative to the "bank manager" look - so people looked to the past and created a new image.

(Sourced from Planettx.com)

*************
Origins of Goth

Arguably, the first groups to produce music that could be construed as "gothic" we re the punk bands Joy Division in 1979 with the singles "Transmission" and "She's lost control" and Siouxsie and the Banshees with their Kaleidoscope Album in 1980. These songs used dark imagery and depression to create an almost apocalyptic sense of impending tragedy in the listener. Although Joy Division can never really be classified as a goth band, the sound and the attitude that were in evidence here would go on to be the main style used in gothic music. The first recorded use of the term "gothic" to describe the music was Factory Records owner and five star pillock Tony Wilson on BBC Radio in 1979. He was quoted as saying Joy Division's "gothic style is an alternative to the mainstream pop scene", though their producer had deemed the band's music "gothic dance" earlier that year.

Around this time, another punk-influenced band called Throbbing Gristle began producing electronic rock music heavily punctured with machine noises. This band, signed to Industrial records and heavily influenced by Kraftwerk, would be the first in a long line of bands to use the name "Industrial" to describe their music, which at first was not linked to goth in any way.

By the end of 1980 Joy Division's singer Ian Curtis had died, the band had changed their name to New Order and they had started to move into pop music. The punk scene was also well and truly buried by this point with the gap it had left filled by the emerging "New Wave" scene. In 1982 a club called The Batcave opened in London. It was begun as an answer to the increasing commercialism of New Romantic, giving to its customers a mixture of old Glam Rock and the new darker post-punk groups. It hosted bands such as UK Decay, Alien Sex Fiend, Sex Gang Children and Southern Death Cult, alongside the first of the true Goth Rock bands - Bauhaus. Along with a changed Siouxsie and contemporaries like The Cramps, Bauhaus had a theatrical but still prevalently hard sound, and the band soon gathered a cult following from the splinters of the punk scene. These included Psychobillies in Britain and Death Rockers in America. The music was now being labelled as "Positive Punk" after an article in NME describing Southern Death Cult. Goth was beginning to gain media coverage but was still to remain an underground phenomenon until a brief period of visibility in the mid-eighties, playing second fiddle to Synth Pop and New Romantic.

The Second Wave of the Goth Rock Scene - 1984-1987

In 1983 Bauhaus split up, with lead singer Peter Murphy embarking on a solo career. However the other bands had become firmly established, and alongside the New Romantics and Mods, Goths were becoming a recognized (if not common) sight in the streets of 80s Britain. There was a Goth scene in America as well, fueled by the arrival of the Death Rock band Christian Death, although much of the impetus for this came from the British bands of the time. In 1984, the term "Goth Rock" was being used to describe the early bands, and a second wave of groups emerged. This was spearheaded by The Sisters of Mercy, a band formed in Leeds in 1980. The Sisters were the only group of the second wave to have had a single out before 1983, and although slammed by the media for its similarity to Joy Division, the group went on to release the singles Alice, Kiss the Carpet and Temple of Love before signing a major record deal. Despite the generously sized ego of the lead singer, and various reshuffles in the lineup, they recorded three successful albums before disappearing into obscurity. The other bands of the time, including The Fields of the Nephelim, Clan of Xymox and The Chameleons all built the foundations of todays Goth culture.

IM not gonna get all confushus on all of u but i do have to say some of u are for getting A band like CHRISTIAN DEATH who has alot to do with the early goth scene some have mentioned, BAUHAUS&SISTER OF MERCY ,siouxsie and the banshee and even the cure wich are also great bands who have establshed some of the goth music we listen to today

Actually Christian Death was mentioned by the thread starter himself.

Kontradiction,

I'm a little surprised that the article which you managed to copy and paste so effectively, only happens to mention Bauhaus once, which is to say when they originally split. The fact that they formed in 1978, just down the road from where I'm living right now in fact, and before punk bands started putting out Goth impressions, must have slipped the writers' mind.

When I mentioned Black Sabbath...I meant the whole first album in general. Songs like "Black Sabbath" & "The Wizard" were very unique for the era. Geezer Butler's guitar riffs (for example) played as big of a role in that album Ozzy's vocals did. It was the sound that they created as a band.

Bauhausers of Mercy huh? Sounds like another west coast wanna-be Rozz "death rocker". Andrew & Peter did their part too!!!!!!

Oh..I was seeing shit...It never said Bauhausers of Mercy..
..it said "BAUHAUS&SISTER OF MERCY"..LMFAO

Nevermind.

Kontradiction - great article! It reminded me of a lot of groups I use to listen to and will start to listen to again! ( drag out the vinyl)! Thanks!

i don't think you can say there is one defining moment - for any cultural / musical movement. Goth emerged from New Romantic, which emerged from Punk / New Wave, which emerged from Heavy Rock etc. new styles dont suddenly blossom overnight - they evolve gradually . Gothic has many influences and variations to it, but thank god at least nobody has mentioned the smiths. damn! sorry everyone.

im sorry about this but im gunna have to say that the Misfits have been responsible for a lot! XD
to be fair though there are so many amazing bands that simply would not be around today if bands like the cure had never existed (blink 182, my chemical romance, marilyn manson) and the misfits just happen to be one of my favorite punk bands ^_^
yeah i know were talking about goth here but they brought something to the PUNK scene that no one had ever really done before - horror!
one great feature of goth music that i just love is those fantastic morbid descriptions...

well if you count the misfits, then you gotta count BA Robertson too. and the Viewers, not to mention the Pretty Things. ever seen Monster Club?

Well...I still say Siouxsie and the Banshees are Goth pioneers...just listen to their first album " The Scream" from '78.

Well said Karnstein. I've been trying to point that out previously, but this thread has been narrowed down to the 'pioneers' from the music scene, as implied in the initial post.

Yes, the title goth has existed for thousands of years. The dress (traditionally) is nothing new.

The history, as I wanted to say, which is only now a regurgitation of what has already be said and mentioned.

How can we give One band the credit when it was a whole underground movement? It's like trying to trace the single atom, or the single gene. It's gone, it's now many.
So many bands were, few got signed, thousands disappeared. They influenced each other, played together in the raw days.
It's like trying to trace the first punk band.
It was a WHOLE movement.
Goth came from punk. Punk came from Metal. Metal came from rock. Rock from blues....
There is no One band, nor five, nor ten. It was a massive culture born. Those signed and well marketed bacame our common idols, with thousands of the lesser knowns... one example Skeletal Family.... and there are too many like them.
Where do I think the music started? the 70's underground.

I'd have to go along with the Bauhaus.

Ozzy had nothing to do with the invention of the 'gothic' genre of music.

This is an interesting thread... Especially since I remember when the Goth music scene got started... at least here in Austin anyway. Ozzy (Actually Sabbath) certainly had an early influence. In nothing more than opening a dark and brooding influence to rock that had been nowhere before. The goth scene sort of started as an offshoot of punk. More of a counterculture to the punk counterculture really (which by 1980 had become totally commercial and cliché). Black Mohawks instead of red or blue ones as I remember. Souxie was a major influencer there fashion and music wise. But for me circa 1982 - The "goths" were the ones who listened to Bauhaus, Depeche Mode, and the Cure. When I still think of "goth" thats what I think of. Although I partied with a lot of the goth chicks (who actually identified themselves as goth), that brooding style of music wasn’t my thing, so I cannot attest to the scene after that (1985-1995). Myself, I went more for the black death metal – Slayer, Venom, Voivod, Sodom, Celtic Frost. (Which in a way is a cousin to the goth scene) It was after getting into what became industrial (Ministry, KMFDM, etc.) that the scene [for me anyway] has seemed to come full circle. It has appeared to me as a “merging of the tribes”, but that may just be my own evolving tastes…
Kanpai!

Personally I feel that the start of the "goth" revolution had to come from when "stoner" music started. It created a group of people that weren't down with social norms and the rebels. So it goes back to probably when the hippies were getting started.

Music styles are primarily Classical, Rock, Metal, Heavy Metal, Death Metal, Punk, Rockablille and now Techno with all it's diversity. If you want to look at Gothic music your looking back to the gothic period which is clasical and that were goth got it's start.

Gene loves jezebel in the mid 80's

White and black make up, black clothing, demon iconography. Kiss =P

Would have to say the Cure, but I know there a ton of other bands and folks who have been there afore.
Victorian dress and the like seem very Goth to me even if it was not intentional at the time.

demonic -

I'd have to disagree with Depeche Mode seeing as they're synth-pop. ;]

Hmmm...perhaps Frankie Goes to Hollywood then?

MBK - I trust your word on that. I personally cant stand Depeche Mode, The Cure, or Bauhaus so any analysis of their specific genres or their musical attributes is something I honestly know nothing about. Just not my thing so please dont flame me for that. It is totally cool if that is what someone else is into.

Like I said circa 1983 - that is what the goth chicks I would party with would be into.

Isn't it interesting however that after 25 years - the "dark underground" (e.g. no radio airplay) genres of music are still around (albeit evolved) and yet all that trendy top-40 commercial stuff has long since been forgotten? I dont see anyone posting about the "pioneering artistry" of Menudo or Milli Vanilli or their contributions to the scene...

Off the top of my head The Cure is one of my favorite pioneers of goth!

Let's not forget about Alice Cooper!

DeMONic -

Possibly because bands such as that don't really have anything 'dark' about them. ;]

e.g. Most of the artists listed in the Vampire Database are somewhere along the lines of goth rock, darkwave, and things like that.

BlackxDiamond -

Hair metal? ;P

MBK - actually I was meaning outside the realms of VR... across the music industry as a whole. Sorry, I shouldv'e clarified that.

Oooh! Well if thats the case I think its because people stop becoming interested in them or they just didn't do anything well enough to be remembered.

misterstikki -

Weren't they more along the lines of pop?

Aronoch, you have a rather interesting view on what gothic music would be. ;] I like it.

I would say to me it was The Cure and Ozzy...they had a big impact on my.
I whent to private school and in order to pi** o** the caretaker we had we played goth, rock, and heavy metal.

I never really followed music since I am more a book worm then a music person. But my class mate where playing that music a lot. I can't really put names exept the ones mentions most of the time in the dorm.

But I think Ozzy and The Cure were pretty strong as to influence us girls. (yes private school for girls)

This thread has been automatically closed for length.