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This thread is in consequence of several threads that have been converging at a central theme. Prediction, prophecy, free will, and the human species' fate.

Nostradamus was a Predictive Astrologer, some would say the best in history. One of his most notable alleged predictions was World War II and his forecast of Hitler (who was noted as Hister in his works). However, Hister is an ancient name for the Danube river, the translation of Germany referred to a very general location, and according to the actual text the person was the son of Germany, which Hitler was Austrian.

The question is: can you name a well known prediction by any historic figure and either qualify or disqualify it? The goal being, can we trust the prophecies set forth in any multitude of texts?

well thats interesting, but off the bat I cant think of any famous people but how often have we heard the thoughts of ordinary people who didn't take that fateful plane ride or those that cancelled their voyage on the Titanic......
I think it's prelevant everywhere. Or coincidence!!

Interesting view. Sort of along the same lines as getting into a car accident of your own and saying to yourself "I knew I shouldn't have gotten in the car today."

I don't think you can because you can take anything and bend it to modern time

That's sort of the point of this thread, icefire. If you take a prophecy or prediction and give us a reason why it's true and then provide evidence, we can start a discussion. Or you can glom onto the Nostradamus predictions and either give evidence for or against them.

Any prophecy loosely written enough can be applied to any convenient world event...

Can you provide an example?

I have never held any faith in any sort of prediction..they are too generic..you can twist and bend them to say anything.

Honestly you can't disqualify a prophecy - it's like proving I don't have an elephant in my car trunk... ultimately you can't do it because at the end of the day we have to agree on what the term "elephant" means and that the meaning is immutable.

You also can't "prove" one either as they're all generally open to interpretation.

Let's make the supposition that we are talking about an African Elephant, even a baby Elephant. And then we can suppose that the vehicle you are driving is a Honda Civic. The likelihood that an Elephant as defined by taxonomy is actually in your trunk is pretty nil. Can you refute that? Sure, but then we would be getting back into the laws of physics, and reality vs. belief, and that's not really what this thread is about.

As in the example given at the start of this thread - Nostradamus gave some pretty specific details in his predictions, and in comparing those details to certain events or locations we can judge whether or not its true. It is all, of course, subjective but that's the point of this thread.

Yes - but you see, your proof relies on assumptions... and therefore proving a negative becomes impossible...

Now, you can prove that there IS an elephant in my trunk...

It's one of the issues with classical logic...

Now, if someone made a prophecy that "a man named Adolf Hitler, born in Austria, who served in the German Army in World War I rising to the rank of Corporal will found the Nazi party based on the political theories he advocates in his book Mein Kampf and will then rise to become ruler of all Germany in 1933..." SURE - you can "prove" or "disprove" that...

... but prophecies are NEVER written that way and are ALWAYS interpreted to cover some event AFTER the fact...

Think of all of the doomsday cults who firmly believe that they've correctly interpreted prophecy BEFOREHAND - and who have all been wrong...

Fair enough. Humor me, though.

Going along your lines, here is an exerpt from an article "Prediction and 11th September 2001" written by Luke Andrews regarding predictions made in April of 1997 by Robert Zoller, the leading Predictive Astrologer today.

"Terrorism will become the greatest single threat to the West in the early part of the next century [21st]. I anticipate the latter part of the year 2001 and the early part of 2002 will see a marked increase in combating terrorism."

It further goes on to explain that...."In answer to the question 'What do you mean by marked increase?' it was replied, 'The use of conventional military weapons directly against the terrorist themselves, wherever they might be'."

This seems to be a pretty specific foretelling that one may have come to as a result of simply following politics on television. But the prediction was formally made in April of 1997. Bush hadn't even been elected yet, so it can't be blamed on him.

When validating predictions it has to be determined how much is foretelling the future and how much is simply common sense. Announcing that one day the earth will be flooded and humans will be grossly mutated isn't a prediction - it's an obvious scenario based on the way we're living now. Announcing that in the year 2012 a president will be elected who will pass laws against war (for example) can be called a prediction.

Predictions need to be specific, is my point.

I see where you're coming from now. I'll have to double check the source, but prediction is different than prophecy - and you did start this out with Nostradamus.

Prediction is based on available data and analysis of historical trends, and it doesn't always yield the correct result. Best place to see this is in the financial institutions, but 10 year threat assessments are another good source. However, for every predictive analysis that is on the mark, I guarantee there are several others that were partially wrong, dead wrong, or disasterously wrong. So what's that particular author's track record?

"Prophecy" is based on none of that...

Predictions are based on data provided to the person performing the prediction. In a meteorologists case, he can predict what the weather will be in the near future as a result of previous occurrences and advancing weather patterns. After applying tried techniques, he/she may come up with a reasonable (though not always accurate) prediction.

Announcing that there will be a president that will denounce or eliminate all war in the year 2012 with no applied techniques and nothing to base it on is not a prediction but a prophecy.

The statements that Nostradamus made were based on Astrological movements and meditation and can be classified as predictions. Because of their concurrence with the Church's concepts of End of Days, they may also be categorized as prophecy.

Sorry Stormwind, I basically regurgitated how you defined prediction.

I disagree there. Movement of planets has no direct bearing on actions of humans or world events... aside from if an asteroid hits the earth or our sun suddenly decides to go supernova...

Weather models, on the other hand, are quite sophisticated and based on real observed data. Other predictions are based on understood market forces - in other words, real data that has a direct causal impact on future events...

I won't argue with you in regards to Astronomical movements, but the predictions made by Nostradamus were based Astrologically. At the time that he made these predictions, before, and shortly after, this form of prediction was considered an observable science. It was during the Age of Enlightenment that humans all but abandoned it. When it was re-adopted by the West it somehow morphed into psychological Astrology.

Does that make Nostradamus' "predictions" any more valid? Not by your standards, no. Having seen a small bit of how to actually perform that form of prediction, I have plenty of respect for them.

I'm one of those rare people who has an actual understanding of both medieval education and science as well as modern science...

The reason that astrology was abandoned is because it was discredited. People realized that the assumptions behind a lot of astrology were dead wrong and the universe didn't work that way...

It's like all of a sudden going back to the plum pudding model of atoms simply because people don't like what modern quantum theory tells them.

The use of leeches were also discredited by modern Western medicine. Yet these leeches produce a natural anticoagulant that helps pre-operative patients.

The use of herbs has been supplemented by laboratory synthesized chemicals that, in many instances, cause more harm than good. If one were to suggest that a person use natural supplements in a controlled manner, it is considered "alternative" medicine.

Perhaps if the Medieval sciences were re-examined, we might find something originally missed by those who "discredited" it.

There are many people who predict the future... Jane Jacobs in the "Dark Age Ahead". Our society needs prediction or speculation, such as the Stock Market, Economy, ect.. we are society that needs information about the future and seek it daily...

the only happening of such thing i can think of is about the sinking of the titanic. in 1900 a book was written about a ship called the titan. it was an exact make to the titanic everything to how many went down with the ship to where it had sank.

Obsidian - do you have any more information about the Titan?

i used to have all of it. i found that out in school and as of right not i am not sure. but the book and the sinking of the titanic was weird in the sense that it was as if he was there. i wish i did. i would have to google it

the name of the author of the book was Morgan Robertson. but the book was never published as Morgan Robertson tried and every time the publisher declined to do so as they thought it was a cruel joke. i am looking for more info on the book now.

i am sorry it was not 12 years it. The book, The Wreck of the Titan was written in 1898

here is the link that i found on wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futility,_or_the_Wreck_of_the_Titan

Wiki has an article about it. Pretty interesting. That one is close but the author never claims it was a prediction or prophecy, and the Wiki article tries to discredit it as such by giving the number rescued and the number on board each ship as drastically different.

he had to rewrite the book. on another site i found that he had issues trying to get it published with the first draft he had. and wiki used the second book.

Interesting thread.

I think the difficulty lies in the fact that predictions are only famous after the event has happened. Ergo, the person who made the prediction would already be dead.

In recent history, there are very few prophets. Sure you can adapt existing prophecies to fit current day events, but off the top of my head I can't think of new prophecies that have been created, let alone fulfilled.

the mention of the Titanic prompted me to think of the fellow who wrote a book about a largre ocean going liner hitting an iceberg four years earlier.
the ship was called, 'The Titan.'

well some of his predictions have came to past in some way or another ...Yet I would not read alot into any predictions it is alot like the weatherman you have a % of being correct.

My view is even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile. So, if you make enough predictions you will eventually get something right. Additionally, If you make things vague enough people will read into them whatever they like.

Wow what an interesting thread. I have nothing new I can add.

I really don't think Nostradamus had any real merit, most of his predictions were pretty much just interpreted to look really close to what has happened.

I really don't think his predictions hold any real merit, they were just interpreted to be really close to what has happened.

some of his predictions have came to pass so of course it could be even a good guess who is to say

Ok well i think that yeah some of his predictions came true. but then if you look at everything he wrote. it could very well be he was writing aboutthings that were happening in his own time. only doing it in a way that made itlook like he was predicting the future, thus saving his ass fromthe prison cells for speaking his mind. think about it.

You make a good point, they would of locked him up some of the things he spoke about . Yea... I sse the point on this.

how about the myan calander predictiong the end of the world in 2012?

the only predictions that I take into acount for any thing are the mayans since it was they that wrote their calander to end in 2012

a little of both maybe?
His predictions are vague enough that they can be applied to several events in time and history.
Yeah, how about the Mayan prediction of 2012?

there are many things that can be said bout the mayans. and bout the Nostradamus. most of what he has said could be consider to be fiction but the other things that he has foretold could however be considered fact. it was he that foretold Hitler and in that case if i remember correctly was unmistakable of who he was talking bout. now the thing of it is that u are the only one that can tell wether it is true or not. some people think it is total bullshit while others look in to it one hundred percent.

so what i am trying to say is that it is all up to u to decide if it is true or bullshit.

yea we are the ones who have to decide if we believe or not

I think everyone is worried

Damn! That was suppose to say Link I think everyone is worried for no good reason.

Come on, there is no reason to be worried, Hell people were saying that the world was going to end in 2000, but it didn't. Who's to really say when it will. More than likely it will happen long after all of us in this site are long gone.

I think that visions or prophecies are just pictures of a future that could happen. Some times you can't change it or stop it from happening....and so times you can. It's all in how you use the information.

There is always a looming expiration date according to prophecies and then revamped when it doesn't happen. Maybe the world will come to an end, but I remember people believing in 1996 that Nostradamus was predicting the world to end that year.

The verses are too cryptic to find solid evidence of when or who, and just vague enough to keep us thinking the end is around the corner.

this is my thought there will always be somone calining they know what is comming and others will beleve as far as i am consirned noone is 100 percnt correct

Wouldn't it be a pisser if they were correct? The odds are stacked against them, but science teaches us that human life on this planet will end at some point.

I can only say that Nostradamus was one of may who wrote predictions. However, it appears they never provide specific enough details to pinpoint exact historical events or people. It seems there is always that missing detail.

I have read quite a few of Nostradamus's predictions. Most, I must admit, were very vague, and can be interpreted in many ways. Fascinating, if you ask me. I cannot deny the fact that, given how one interperates his writing, he has been closer than most I have read about. Makes a person stop and think.

I kind of see him as a psychic investigator, they tell you someone died. Anyone can say someone is going to die, or has died, however they never produce a body.

One point I wanted to make in all of this.
I read above that it is said that no astrological event can effect us. (i.e. on earth)
While I am far from any sort of master on the subject, one thing I had heard some time back.
Everyone always talks about how the moon effects their moods etc right?
Doesn't the moon hold an effect, of some kind, on the tides? Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that it does.
It has been suggested, that the reason that so many feel 'a pull', or some sort of effect during different moon cycles, is due to the amount of water within our own bodies.
Simple logic, at least to me, is if the moon does effect the tides, i.e. water, would it not affect us? At least in _some_ way?
So... isn't that astrological?
Presuming so, you cannot say that astrology is totally fake.

Sorry... just rambling, prove me wrong. :shrug:

its a bit late for this however I could fit an elephant in a honda civic's trunk

now it would be a real african made elephant toy or plushy but it would fit lol.

as for predictions and prophecies as stated its hard to disdain truth from fiction
however being able to see detail or lack of in something is also a part of prediction
if you know someone really well watch them for a week, and you can probably guess something that they will go through or have happen to them based on study

Everyone who has predicted the end of the world has one thing in common - so far, they've all been wrong...

I'm still planning for my retirement - and that comes AFTER 2012....

ill agree with you on that no one has predicted our end and each time that time comes its oh its the end

when it passes oh well uh it was a test or i guess the date was in confusion lol

There were a multitude of things that he was correct about, yet he also made some wrong predictions, or those predictions still haven't come to pass yet as he may have said they would.

Not everything is set in stone, therefore what he may have predicted may never come to pass.

Pontius - Yes the Moon does have a gravitational pull. As a matter of fact the first seven "planets" in Astrology all have a gravitational pull on Earth's water - (per NASA).

Because our bodies are made of approximately 70% water, this would mean they also have an effect on our systems. That 70% comprises not only our organs and actual fluids, but it also includes our hormones and neurotransmitters which have a large impact on our general behavior. The slightest change in dispersement or amounts of at least these two things can determine further degenerative or improved human operations. Deficiencies and overdoses can cause death - and it doesn't take alot to cause either one.

I'd like to make a comparison between the predictions of a meteorologist and the elephant in the trunk. A meteorologist makes predictions based on past experiences and observations, then assume the outcome. It has been my experience to have observed the size of a typical elephant as being much too large to fit in the trunk of any car. A car, mind you, not a large truck.

I think that we read into his works what we want. I mean when his name comes up as one of his 'profecies' had come to past it is always noted after the fact. If he was correct couldn't people read into them before they happen so the events could possibly be avoided?

I agree with darkRose, you can see a lot of things in what has already been written.

2007Skittles...from what I have found from studying the Maya is that their calender is based on the cycle of their time wheel, where in certain blocks of time, certain things shall take place. It is said that in 2012, we shall reach the end of the block of time we are in, and at the end of that block, comes the ending of what we know to be in this world...

I believe there is both fact and fiction to Nostradamus, seeing as he is not the only one to predict that the world will come to a catastrophic end, him as well as the Mayans and the Chinese have all predicted the worlds end then, as well as many other cultures and peoples, Plus there is a geographical anomalie that is going to happen on that date.

I agree with BloodAngelx. I do have faith in some of Nostradamus's prediction, as I do with Edgar Cayce.

I believe his beliefs were true and i believe in much he had said

"Planetary Cycle-Based Market Crash Prediction
Astonishingly Accurate

http://divinecosmos.com

by David Wilcock


Today, October 25, 2000, the global markets crashed — just as we had scientifically predicted on our website twelve days earlier.

The Nasdaq slid 190.22 points, or 5.6 percent, to 3,229.57. The Nasdaq’s third straight loss was its eighth-worst point decline on record. The Dow Jones industrial average lost 66.59 to 10,326.48, breaking a four-session winning streak. The S&P 500 lost 33.23, or 2.4 percent, to 1,364.90. In the currency market, the euro fell to a record low of 82.64 U.S. cents. The Toronto Stock Exchange suffered the largest point drop in its history, slumping 8.1 percent on losses in market heavyweight Nortel. Brazil’s Bovespa stock index closed at 13,665.3, its lowest level in five months.

Members of the private Bradley Cowan Discussion Group indicated that the natural energetic effects of a number of planetary (astrological) cycles would create a stock-market bottom that would converge on October 24-26 of 2000. After this moment of time, their cycle analyses indicated that the energetic pressure would be reduced and stock markets might recuperate."

Again - thank you to Oceanne for this link and information.

i totally have to agree with twilightsmile
as for my opinion

how do you all think the world will end when it happens if it does

If you're referring to the end of the Earth, then I think it will suffer the same fate as the rest of the cosmos - or the Big Crunch, from what I've read.

If when you say the end of the world you mean the end of humanity as in Armageddon, there was a thread not too long ago discussing that and there was no general consensus. Personally I think humans will kill themselves off.

I believe that with predictions in general and Nostradamus’s predictions specifically they are only as correct as we believe them to be. People will see what they want to see in anything. It is not uncommon for someone to make a straightforward statement with no other meaning than what the person says word for word. Yet people like to pick the statement apart and interpret it differently. Interpretation is so subjective and vague that it is hard to prove but also hard to disprove. I think like our other beliefs it all depends on how much each person believes it. When it comes right down to it what we personally believe is all that really matters for us.

the only place you will find predictions that are semi accurate is the bible

The gift of being able to see the future is great. But just because some one sees it dose not mean it is set in stone. It may happen....it may not. I have predicted many deaths in my family and they always came true. And other things I have seen have not come true...I think what I see is just one possiable future.

I don't believe Nostradamus actually predicted anything. I think he was just so good at mincing words that anything he wrote down can be interpreted any number of ways, and by sheer coincidence, one of those ways happens.

It's funny, though, that nobody ever says "Nostradamus predicted that!" before something happens, only after.

I'll just say this:

Why oh why are prophets and psychics always so fekin' vague or poetic so that a fortelling could end up being nearly anything based on how you read it...ESPECIALLY when it's read after an event. Can anyone give me a prophecy that was interpreted correctly before it came true?

It would have been amazing if someone had read the Nostradamus prophecy of Hitler before Hitler's rise to power. Even if they hadn't acted on it. If someone had simply written down somewhere right before Hitler stepped into power, "oh wait...that Nostradamus quatrain sounds like it's talking about you." But instead, we always read a prophecy after an event and say...yep that's what it was about and if that is in fact the way they have to go, then what's the point of realizing a prophecy AFTER the event.

Because they're just making random stabs at what might happen in the future by using what they dream at night, Felix?

I don't know if it's a random stab or a completely accurate prophecy but the point I make is that without a clear decipherable way to interpret it, it doesn't matter because it's useless until we have the event and can look back and say "oh yes - he was right wasn't he - shame we couldn't see it beforehand".

Got a link for anyone who wants it on the subject . By the way the myans were not the only ones to have predicted the world to end in 2012 . They were just the most descripitive and to the point with it . The first is a link to an encycopedia . The second just makes me pose a question to everyone about the end of the world . link onelink 2

Sorry new at links but there are two.There just right next to each other

The biggest problem with predictions of global destruction lay in the fact that it's a prediction of a final outcome not a solution to an impending problem.

If the prediction of 2012 is accurate, we won't know until it's upon us and the Mayans certainly didn't leave any advice on how to stop it though it's said that their human sacrifice may have been an attempt to appease the gods if you wanna try that out.

well the angel of light has alot 2 do wif people thinking the r able to see the future and again the only place you will find truly accurate ummm GUEESES is in the bible and you mite not agree but how can something writen by so many dif people in dif parts of the world at diferant times with all the accuracy its shown be discarded as crap and yet people will stik to the word of people like Nostradamus like its fact ... I dont understand it

I see blind faith in Nostradamus just as difficult to understand as religious faith however I won't argue against yours as it's not the place for it. Sufficed to say that your particular prophecy does offer up a solution but with nothing so concrete as to say exactly what comes next. Again a prophecied laced in metaphor and vagueries that is only of use to those who believe this interpretation over that one and no real way of knowing who's right until it's over.

If everyone agreed on what exactly the bible prophecied, then there wouldn't be dozens of different religions using the same book would there?

Thats a hard one to really answer , cause alot that he has predicted has come to pass . I would have to say honestly Fact ..

Nostradamus made almost 1,000 phrophecies in his life. He started making these after the 1546-47 plague in Aix-en-Provence and he died in 1566. So there wasnt much time between the time he started and when he died.

It is said that he started with the weather and going by what the weather readers do today I think he did a better job and he got more right.

All his prophecies were written in verses so in fact he was a story teller and out of these stories he fortold of King Henry II death, WWI and WWII, the death of the Kennedys and much much more.

This leeds me onto Morgan Robertson, he wrote a story in 1898 about the "Wreck of the Titan" This story came to fruition nearly 14 yrs latter with the Titanic. Nearly everything stated in this story was fact with the Titanic and what wasnt fact was so dam close it isnt funny. For example...

Mth of wreck. Titan: Apr, Titanic: Apr
Passangers and crew. Titan: 3,000, Titanic 2,207
props: Titan: 3, Titanic: 3
Speed at impact. Titan 25knots, Titanic 23 Knots.

Again Morgan Robinson was a story teller whos story became true in a certain degree. My mother always told me a story when I was a kid about a comic she use to read when she was a kid about Buck Rodgers. He flew a space shuttle and she recalls how it looked exactly like the space shuttle today...was it a prediction of the space shuttle or did the designer design the exterior from the comic, who knows.

A lot of us make predictions of the future me I said I was going to be a soldier when I grew up...and here I am today a soldier.

The point is all these started out as storys and came to be. So in real terms they sarted out as fiction and became fact no matter how we look at it.

i dont know alot , but i know if humans keep goen the way they are , all life will end , less we clean up our act. stop throwing trash on the streets, do more than clean your room , how about the world.....lol


ok i think i went green tree...lol were did that come from. i am a flesh eater ,....lol not a veggie boy...lol

i kinda believe it could be true.. hey this could be a nice poll for me to post.. lol

I think everyone can say 'the end of the world will happen', they'll be right some day - it's like saying 'you will die', because you will

To me stating the obvious is not a prediction, saying "You will die on Tuesday" is

Nostradamus wrote a great deal of general stuff, some of which came about right if you twist it to fit, some of it never came right no matter how much you twist it

I'm working on the connection between elephants and cars [I've only just figured out that the truck is what americans call the luggage hold on a car LOL] and I will get back to you when I have grasped it :)

Well I don't think that you can really rely on a prophecy honestly it seems far fetched... like the bible it is like how can you believe a human they are liers.. they betray everyone and everything.

St Colomba predicted every Pope n history and the last Pope he listed was this one... what does that say I wonder?

From what I understand, he's had FAR more prophecies prove to be false than those that have been true.

That is very true. The only ones we hear about are the ones he got right or very close. He predicted the 2000 Olympic games right down to where it was held, but what he got wrong was that a tidal wave would wipe out the east coast of this nation (being Australia). People dont wanna hear the wrong only the right and then it is a wonder of the world because it is right. Not everyone can be 100% right, not now not then.

You can interprete the translations ever how you choose...but it doesn't mean he actually saw the future.

I would say no you can not accurately trust the predictions of someone no matter what method they use. I say this because you are only getting the possible future at the time it was seen. Between there and now one thing could have changed which would make the outcome something completely different. Plus you can look at a hill and see the bottom of it and say I know where the ball is going to go when I roll it down, it is going in a straight line to that point but hidden you didn't see the rock and as your ball is rolling down the hill it hits the rock and travels far off to the left of the mark you thought it would go. Just my way of saying you can't see everything.

BathoryBabe - I like that analogy. I prefer to think of it like this:

Prediction is akin to the effects of a rifle vs that of a shotgun. The bullet from a rifle hits the target spot on - but that from the shotgun sprays pellets at the target. It hits the target but not dead center.

Like your analogy, you can see where the ball is going so you may be able to reasonably predict the outcome. Even if something changes, it won't stray in a completely opposite direction.

In time we will kill each other off till there is none of us left. We like to fight too much. Just look around. You see it ervery day.

Darkpoet - is that a prediction or an assessment?

Well, supposedly the end of the world was going to end on June 6, 2006. That never happened. I think something that someone says turns out to be true it is just a coincedence. I don't believe it is possible to read the future but sometimes I think perhaps I am wrong.

predictions have been coming around from times past and to put faith in the belief is hard, yet certain things seem to keep coming up, the accuracy of his predictions, quite amzing, infact a insight of things yet to come which he was very averce in doing. But still alot of his predictions fell short.

Like most things a little bit of both.. Fact and fiction.

If you say some thing is going to happen and only give general points of reference at some popint and time it will happen.. LOL

This thread has been automatically closed for length.