I have done a great deal of reading throughout the Vampire Rave site. In my random wanderings, I found many vivid and wonderful opinions expressed, but a few seem to lack in factual correctness. One might critize me for wanting to find fact on a site dedicated to topics that seem to naturally defy logic and are highly personable, but I think any topic must have a firm foundation in which to build its case.
My question is when the enlighten come across such a discussion, which they know to be credibility lacking, should they take the time to provide such evidence regardless of its supportive nature even when it might impose upon the originator's intent. Should you help those ignorant of certain facts find a truth supported by well documented research?
Should we then change the world with our own personal correctness? Would we be any less enlighten if we change only a few individual people? Did any enlighten being come to us and correct our misguided truths? Or did we learn on our own and from our own mistakes?
oh, most certainly. why not? you're helping educate people here.
that is why i try to post things on my journal for people to read
because alot of VR newbies are looking for guidance on vampiric culture and what are they really
i try my best to do so whenever i possibly can
It seems to me that reactionary statements, arise when one makes such fact based statements, after a while one just gets tired of readdressing them.
but yet of people are looking for education and you have the facts that they can use, why not help the "seeking" find their knowledge?
seems like a decent thing to do and hardly "reactionary".
i think a reaction is a neccesary thing when it comes to educating someone
how else would you know that they learned something?
I think it's human nature to be hungry for more knowledge we're always wanting to know more to grow and to learn
I usually respond from personal experience on topics that hit home. I posted on the transplant forum because I actually had one. I may not be able to quote from a book but we can also learn from people's experiences.
Hard to correct an opinion. As for the VR threads go, they're for discussion not for ultimate truth for any enlighten to correct. But then an enlighten person would already know this. There are more misconceptions to shake a stick at. *no poking, please* How many times can we say that there is no real Hollywood type undead vampire? But some still swear there are. Go figure. My mommy says that babies come from storks. Just ask her! The statement is true and as far as the child is concern, very real. Would you try to correct her with your enlightenment? It wouldn't work even if you tried. What makes you think it will happen here and who's benefit would it serve?
Billy, i agree about the opinion part.
But i say, if there is some documented stuff on something, then link it up here and let the seeking read it. it'll only help them broaden their knowledge on the occult.
of course as with anything dealing with actual facts you should always find more than just one source that backs up the truth because of course there will always be those who just guess and use their opinions in facts that will mislead the reader.
if you can prove someone wrong by all means do it because maybe they don't know they are incorrect.
As long as the facts in dispute aren't so far off from the threads intent that it's a sidetracking issue then yes, of course we should attempt to find facts and reason if they exist on a subject. I don't know that Wikipedia (so often used here) is the best source of facts with which to base that argument but resources are permitted and encouraged in threads seeking debate. However, I'd also state my opinion that sources should help stimulate your own argument and not take the place of your own words.
I agree with Felix and Billy. This forum is for educational purposes. Opinions are individual. Whether to gain knowledge from said opinions or to input your own is always by choice.
To correct a supposition with either an opinionated, theoretical, or otherwise answer is the individuals own agenda. We as individuals have always had that right regardless the consequences. Nothing in any conversation be it online or off is ever be all end all. This is why a discussion is a discussion and not a decree.
If you feel obligated to correct any discussed matter, feel free to do so. Just remember to follow the guidelines of VR policy in the process as not to break any rules or regulations.
The forums have always be a place for discussing interesting topics, whether or not they have the appeal to fact or fiction is always questionable, which is why it is so open based.
To dictate whether or not an idea based on fact should be the only thing within forum discussion is basically taking a way the individuals right to free speech. Thus, it does not happen. Discuss what you will. Retaliation will be prompted within the boundaries of others minds as they see fit to judge the forum thread for themselves.
*suppresses laughter* Okay, okay... if we all agree we are in discussions of all that is "unknown", how can pure conjecture be discarded because a particular reader finds the opinion of another to be lacking?
The idea, or so I thought, was to take from all of this as you will. Many of you have the ability to differentiate between what you may consider and what you'd chuck away as trash. Those that are not quite able to make the distinction and happily nod at any suggestion -- consider that we are all doing them a service by providing entertainment, at the very least.
So, please share your beliefs that's what the forum is for... Don't sweat the small stuff.
I find a discussion interesting when there are both facts and opinions present. It can lead into a most interesting debate.
A persons opinion can shift my thinking into another mode. Even though I might not change the way I see or feel something, I do like to be able to see both sides.
Learning can come from numerous things.
I would find it much easier to learn and debate with some who use spell check and not text speak though. I want to learn facts and opinions. I do not want to decode it before I answer it.
It is reasonable to disagree with posts in these threads. Much discussed here is opinion or topics that are difficult to prove. I find it hard to believe that there are undeniable truths, supported by hard facts that have never been questioned.
Never try to force someone into your own beliefs, but if you truely do believe that you hold the truth to something that they are wrong about, then yes, feel free to impart your knowledge unless asked other wise. Never badger people.
we as humans need to absorb knowledge and even understanding of all thinks it is just natural, I love to learn and like it when I learn something new .. :0
These forums are great for bouncing ideas and thoughts back and forth, to discuss.. people should always do research first and then discuss in here what they have read and their questions or ideas on what was researched.
I agree to an extent that if one does have the factual evidence needed to correct another on a certain topic, then so be it.
BUT how would one, who believes themselves to be "enlightened" on a topic such as Aliens building the Pyramids be able to say that their "facts" are more "enlightened" than the next person?
There's also the line that grey line of if one is indeed trying to help educate another with these facts OR just trying to push their opinions onto others.
I agree that on some topics facts can prove or disprove a theory but some thing have to facts to either prove or disprove them. Those are the things that need to be take on faith alone. I don't think having faith is a bad thing it just matters what or who you have faith in.
An enlightened person should definitely support the discussion with facts, as long as it is not going to offend anyone's beliefs.
You may put down as many factual and logical explanations as you like, but regardless, people will choose whether they believe it or not.
As long as the discussions do not deter the forum guidelines and freedom of speech, have at it with which ever facts brought to the table.
Personally, I do not see why people are so quarrelsome over forum discussion. Links to factual evidence are given time and time again.
If dominars, and or site admin really had problems about certain discussions, I am sure they would do something about them.
To me, subjects such as this one should really not be up for debate.
There is room for both views. accuracy and diversity of opinion do not have to be mutually exclusive.
If there is something that will prove or disprove a theory it is not a bad idea to post the information. But no matter what information u put out there is always a way to argue the other side of the story
yes i think that you should. actually think that it is your job to because you are enlightened to share that knowledge
It depends on the debate on any given thread.
Sometimes it is impossible to prove a subject up for discussion.
One mans enlightenment is another mans prison.
I have given link sources in some of my posts.
However who is to say that what is written on the internet and books is all right?
Anyone can write a book or a site and claim that everything written is right.
Heck I could write a whole book or build up a site and say I am the rencarnation of some dead celebrity/historical person who'd say I am right or wrong?
So when I give links I always say, ''according to this site'' and say that I am stating what's written in it but that it doesn't mean I actually belief or disbelief it.
So in a way even 'real' sources, in my opinion can be subjective, also only a few take care of the links I prove, many don't even care, so in the end the majority still prefer opinions then 'actual' proofs.
And like it was mentioned before it's not always possible to give proofs.
How can I give proofs of my expiriences? I can do nothing, I can just either get believed or don't.
Still it'll always remain subjective, if not there wouldn't be any purpose of the forum.
You don't need to correct the individual as its all about opinions, just state yours and they can take from it what they want.
When Make believe is involved Billy you said it well, that is the reactionary element I adress people want to "learn" more obscure things to support obscure claims
based on their beliefs, some of which are documented as hoaxes. They insist that they even saw a stork bring a baby to someone, or idolize a person who says they did. telling them that they lack evidence of something will get a rotunda or defensive jargon, aimed at dislodging a critical thinkers base of contest, "You cannot prove that it does not exist !" Faith based elements all share this formula.Your Lack of faith in myth is held against that of others. Some feel persacuted by non-belief, as if one person not believing what you do is a challenge to what you maybe questioning in the back of their mind.Works both ways as well. When someone says thats what I believe, and I don't care to hear anything against it would be great if it ever happened that way.Those words are veiled prompts to debate. Yet this is a descussion form something that faith based people point out after they prompt a debate.
I think a lot of people are on this site to find answers to the questions that they may have. Just because someone does not have credible evidence, it does not make them ignorant.
People are here to seek answers and to ask a lot of questions. That is what these forums are for.
I agree with listless. Most discussions have both opinions and facts in them. It is part of what makes it a discussion. A lot of threads are posted because the people posting them want opinions. They also may want to learn something. If you have facts about what the topic is, why not present them? But I also see nothing wrong with someone stating their opinion as well.
By reading the Forum Discussions I've learned a lot of info.
Thing is, you are talking about fictional subjects on here for the most part, so there is no factual shit to post. It's mainly vamps, werewolves and all that biz from movies, imagination, and books. It's a make believe world so you are dealing with whatever people want to post as their opinion.
imaginative opinions based on notional whims... usually founded in fad.
necrop,
I did read all of the previous responses, but I'm going to pass over replying to them and address your question directly, since I disagree with so many.
I understand your frustrations and there was a time when the forum was less of a playground and more of a place to actually discuss a topic, rather than provide short responses to the original topic in the hopes of increasing that post count.
Unfortunately, as the site and the membership changed, the interest in the serious study of the theoretical existence of vampires, and the researches associated with that, have taken a back seat to the fantastical.
This is not necessarily a negative thing, just different to what it could have been. There are many other sites which look at vampirism as a valid state of being and strictly base their forum content upon that premise, but on VR, the majority are young people with little or no experience of the occult, as you are probably noticing.
The blend on VR then gets a bit mushy when someone begins a thread from either stance, real or fictional, and the respondents often take it upon themselves to drive their own agenda, regardless of the initial intentions of the thread.
It then polarises the camps into those who believe and those who don't. Each has valid arguments, but neither seems able to 'live and let live'.
If a thread creator wishes to see a specific topic discussed as a serious study, then they need to indicate that, otherwise it will likely be filled with opinionated responses.
The trouble I find now, is that the majority of threads are so poorly presented in terms of the information that they contain and the questions they seek answers to, that those with the ability and knowledge to contribute on an almost academic level, rarely find the inclination to do so.
Further, the fact that children make up a large proportion of the membership, does create some ethical questions on content. Generally acceptable topics on other sites may not be appropriate to discuss here.
Probably the only real supported discussions will come from the threads on history of the legend, medical disorders, psychology, sociology, the books and other media, etc, as there is obtainable evidence to bring to the table on these.
The hypothetical existence of people living with vampire traits is pure conjecture, which may be founded in logical assumption, but is more in the realm of philosophy, rather than science, in my own opinion.
This makes it increasingly difficult to fulfil the needs for hard fact and documentation.
I am glad that there are still some people who are willing to take it as a possibility, and not close their minds off to theories which can make sense, but I feel that those are in the minority on VR.
Thank you for raising the question and I am regretful that you have found a need to ask it.
If you have the skill, knowledge, ability, experience or training in a certain subject then I think it is good to share. However, if you are just researching, jumbling and pasting to sound like you know the subject to serve an inflationary self purpose that is a different matter.
However, you can only lead a horse to water you can't make him drink it.
Any evidence presented here is in the form of personnal experience or links to websites. Real scientific evidence would take the form of papers or articles in respected journals that are peer reviewed.
everyone has thier own opinions on these subjects. Some people do give what ever facts they can find, but again we dont know how accurate those facts are. When we get into the subjects that are discussed in the forums there is no proof one way or the other if they are real or not, so we will always have the debates on these subjects
I feel most people already back up there staement with details and make for some good readings on facts that Im unsure of
I agree alot of people do back up what they say. We just don’t know how accurate the info they give is. The subjects we talk about are mysterious so there is not alot of factual information mostly theories
I think that if one is more enlightened to a certain topic than another. Then yes you should share and assist in educating more. You never know who might come along wishing to learn. If you do not share than you have simply done nothing to help or educate others. There are ways of doing it so that it would not be taken offensively, yet will make them stop and think instead.
well if they post something that upsets otherpeople and other people say their wrong in doing so. then prove it to everyone and send the website with the information regrading your subject. i would
I believe that one should help inform others with a certain well documented fact or common sense reasoning as long it contributes to a certain topic as a resolution of it, and it should act as a solid proof.
That of course should everybody accept as a proof, and it should perfectly respond to their own common sense.
And if they cant agree with the fact given, than I guess more time is necceserry for them and their mental process to understand and adopt certain things/meanings.
I guess if it is producing unecceserry bickering, than it is not worth of further intervention, but should be left to resolve its own natural way.
Threads opened to invite testimony, tend to imply claims based on fiction.
Is that inviting discussion of facts?No it is not it seeks people with shared fictional interest, the difference is as well stated above. the Header on the thread, if you want a psuedo-scientific discussion you will less likely to get counter or cross chatter. When a thread seeks factual address to a topic, that may even request research links. Then the physics or nonfiction based forums can be opened. But open ended question, that veil claims
wear thin on people that want to reply, yet avoid
the third Degree, and counter replies from what sometimes seems to be a baited question to confuse a person into appearing to lose there critical thinking on a topic.If I ask a question that is confusing and I my agenda is to support my claim
I will ask a "blank" question then when a person ask it I will reply to their reply to a baited question with a question that will in turn question their already one degree separated question. then their hasty reply supports my projection to others that I wish to champion my claim in front of. witness the stumping of a person that made a reply to a loaded question. Anybody want to buy a bridge?
Who doesn't learn a lot? I most certainly do. Especially from forums and also other links.
this is like Ripleys believe it or not that is up to the reader. If the facts are just how can one not believe. But all in all it is educational to say the least.
When a person argues something that is based fiction
or claimed as super natural, through debate they challenge facts presented against the claim, say "I was touched by a ghost during a visit to a medium, that is why I payed her 50 dollars."
I state that another lady that visited the medium, discover that bubbles where blown in her face. from some one in the room.
The person replys in usually one or two ways (depending on their critiacal analisis, 1 they are astonished and embaressed, they may be more cautious of people.
Others the idial marks, attach their faith to something, I want to believe in ghost ti is all I have
to connect me with my loved one, I am afraid to meet people I seek love readings or "spells'.all these and more reasons. They attach to the illusion that duped them, a new tactic I cannot go into is being usd to combat the "lever" used by scandelous fraudsters.
anex - debaters of super natural or fictious based claims usually involve a dismissal of facts (by challenges), yet the lack of any presented fact on their behalf is glossed over. Statments bearing on support are inflated, example," you cannot prove that blowing bubbles is used by all mediums." they are right if you admit that they chalk a point of support for their camp.
Yet if allowed to folow up the statement with say.
Yet there is also a list of other items found in shops that show other possibilities. They will again attack the language. "That only accounts for a fraction of mediums !" Is their faith being challenged? No their lively hood is being threatened.
poeple should try and prove things to be true yes...
but this is all about showing the feelings we have about certain things...and working towards an answer we can all agree on...
On some of these things, opinions are all we have. Is there really any solid proof of paranormal? We don't know how to measure it.
There are some very well researched posts, quoting ancient documents and tracing history, but is that enough.
In most areas of endeavor, numbers have importance. In some areas, if you can't talk numbers you don't know what your talking about. Economics, engineering, science, history all rely on dates, times, counts, numbers.
Could it be that there are no measurement system available to count, measure and record the paranormal.
We all probably doubt some of the measuring device that we see on popular TV shows. Perhaps our research and activities should move toward new ways of measuring.
I believe you can put across your opinion and give your advice. But it is always up to the individual to take it or walk away. So by all means give your opinion just don't think you have the right to sway everyone into your way of thinking.
Then there are also those who use "discussion' to mock others in two camps, they are likely to pose as a believer or a skeptic, yet they are only interested in reading the entertaining debate they started with a loaded question. Motive?
I think you have to careful 'tho of false information and spoofing though. It happens!
I think that forums can be used for both opinion and facts. We all have own beliefs and we all have studied different topics...why not educate and help open the minds of others?
I have no problem opening peoples minds, it is when they invite me in and then close the doors that I worry.
I seek things to believe something beyond imagination, but I do not look in the same places over and over, i am critical of things only because I want to assure that when I do witness something phenomenal that I can witness it and not be struck with awe.
There has become a tendency on this site to ridicule the "less-informed" rather than try and educate. If I see a bad posting I usually try and discuss it via PM. Posting it in my journal and pointing to my friends seems a bit playground, even though I have indulged in that in the past myself.
and as long as the items that are posted here are fact not opinion, then they can be helpful, versus harmful.
i enjoy it when some one post with back up...i enjoy actually learning things and i can honestly say i have learned a great deal on here...thanks to all
I'd have to agree with an earlier post .. it doesn help educate those who need it, so yes.
yes i believe that you should enlighten people on the subjects they wish to be enlightened on. like alot of people have said we are here to be educated.
i agree with everything been said, it is intresting to read things posted it here, i have learnt quite alot form reading certain posts what take a interest to me, but some of the stuff i don't believe in lol!
I have said it before... one persons fact is anothers fiction and yet anothers fact is both our fiction. But what you beleive in is what you beleive in and you should stand up for what you beleive in. But at the same time be open to others beliefs... your fact might not be the only one out there...
sure why not but theres many who would say no or yes so is never a win win.
if you find something to be true then yes make sure you tell us we all can still learn something new
If something can be duplicated that was once a mystery and others disregard the exposed event and still consider it probable that it " has to be a mystery" Then I say let them, let them fatten the pockets of people who write books based on it for years to come, it is no skin off of my back. yet when I go to a book store and see a book in both the fiction and non fiction section I believe I found out that spiritualist are crafty, admirable, to a person that comes from a carnival background. If the suckers play and think they can win unless the Carney wants them to then let them be "Entertained" I always am when i go to the Midway, but for different purposes. So if a person does something like a carney with a faith based attachment, well do I have to expand upon the likely hood of belief that can then be exploited?
Let us say that if 5% of unexlained(uncatorgorized) events are scrutenized and announced to be so, now the believers will hound those ponies for all they are worth. Yet they tend to exclude them after they are exposed or classified, by upgraded research, and equipment, as well as growing pools of former hoax artist. all who like to tell ghost stories and be mystified as well. rel bad magicians not good enough to perform on stage usually get involved in spiritualism, the same slight of hand they would perform on stage under pre adjusted observation( the audiance is watching for the ploy) in a mediums shop they are less cued to watch for much less suspect a simple trick. already primed with faith attached belief it is a double take. Motive to lay to rest the adult and bring out the fasinated child, easier to financially exploite, or good for a promotional stodge.