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More specifically, why (or why not) does it matter to you personally? I'm looking for personal revelation here in terms of how your belief in this area --- a creator vs. science, a plan for humanity vs. shit happens --- affects how you've structured your life.

This is not an opportunity to diss someone's beliefs in either direction. If you focus on yourself, there's no reason to pity, or congratulate anyone else.

For me it really doesn't matter, it's interesting to talk about, but doesn't really matter. I try to keep things simple in my life and be happy with that. Ignorance can be bliss for me sometimes. =)

If we do every find the answer, my reaction would be, "ok, cool". :)

For me personally at this point,it doesnt matter why it was created.If there is one who did it,we as humans can never really know the answer,.And I would go nuts trying to figure it out,so I dont think about stuff like that.And depending on what one believes,hell,we cant even follow 10 simple rules,much less understand why we are here.Nope.one thing at a time.

i'm such a proof monger that it actually comes down to maybe i just don't care if it was created or just popped into existence, i just like learning about things

the chance happenstance that things HAPPENED to be at the right time with the right circumstances to create anything out of nothing seems just too coincidental for me, but at the same time proof of a creator can sometimes seem just as far fetched.

i've never really gotten satisfactory answers because when it comes down to it.... it's all just theory... and 'proof' is all relative, but both are fascinating theories none the less

I would say I am torn. I am a student of Anthropology and for that reason it matters.. My own personal reason it doesn't matter. So I am in the middle. Science dictates much. My personal oppion is just that.. This can become a very interesting deep subject, I look forward to reading more oppions on this subject.

I'm not really worried as to why or how it was created... I'm more worried about what is the reason that we are all here. What is the deeper meaning of life.

I myself wonder why the universe / planets were created or put here, I mean for what purpose is it to serve other than the fact that we live we die and move on or some believe we die and reincarnate to something within this planet or universe. it is an age old question I figure and you may find out once you pass on or you may not. I just wish I knew the purpose of it all.

For me it matters greatly. If the universe was created then everything we have learned through study of the universe means very little; in effect, it would be meaningless.

The words "create" and "creation" should only be used metaphorically, and that is because these words refer to a process never witnessed or even evidenced to any human. No one has ever witnessed an event of creation. What we see and refer to as "creation" are events of transformation. And this complies with the most likely scenario for the universe.

The universe has most likely always existed. Some people have trouble with such a concept because they look at their television, their cell-phone or even their home and think of these things as having been created -- going from non-existence to existence. But the most basic components of the atoms from which these things are formed have most likely always existed. The forms change, but the basic units of which matter and energy are composed show no evidence of ever not existing.

Many believe that the Big Bang theory is an explanation of how the universe was "created". Some will even find support for such an idea through carelessly worded technical writings on the subject. But the Big Bang is not a model of a creation event. It is the model of a transformation event. It begins not with nothing, but with a point of intense heat and dramatic density. Without that point, no Big Bang occurs. So the base components exist "prior" to the event known as the "Big Bang".

For me it helps to look to Einstein's most popular equation; E = MC^2. All that equation tells us is that matter and energy are the same thing. The conversion factor between one and the other is simply the square of the speed of light (89,875,517,873,681,764).

This means that the whole of the universe could be converted into energy. And energy is detectable through its affect on matter. So with no matter, can you detect the energy? The appearance is the absolute lack of existence, aside from perhaps space-time itself. And yet by reversing the process, an entire universe comes back into obvious existence because it was never really gone. It simply transformed into another state, and then back.

I would submit that the answer to the question is of great importance to all of us, though some may not feel the need to ponder the question.

It matters because there is not enough time in this universe for everybody. This universe is going to end one day, and all those which havent understood they have to and how to get out of it, will be crushed. No mercy. You have couple of ways, transfer to other universe by your own means of achievement, or reaching the divine consciousness, and merging with it by your own effort, for which the universe was created for at the first place, or maybe it was an accident not meant for anything, and this is the best predicted way of conduct in this universe. Once it crushes, all that stayed behind, goes in to recycling. Just imagine a lots of functional parts which have nowhere to be added, in the trash can. Well, thats how all those souls which havent understood how to master the process of life, death, and rebirth, will look like, mixed with the rest of the material mass of the universe, preparing for the next big cycle. There is no true death, just a change, prolongation of the agony, which does not know, until it can wake up on its own.

I want to answer this question on one hand, but on the other don't think it matters a great deal as many people live unexamined lives for the most part. Beast has inspired me, so I will take a short go at it.

I agree with Beast, but for different reasons. I tend to look at the associations of civil society and think to myself that if there was no Creator argument in all of this then people would be living very differently: we would treat each other very differently. There would be no standard of absolute upon which to base differing moral systems. This is strange in itself that people argue the absolute and yet come out with different results, saying to me that the absolute cannot be present in all of those situations. This stands as a bit of proof to my mind that moral systems, at least, are not created by any singular source; basic tenants of civil society are merely re-interpreted based on changing cultural perception.

Now, I am mindful of Voltaire's statement with regard to this, but I don't think, with "proof" of no Creator, with a capitol C, we would be able to create god in such a way as to so strongly effect cycle after cycle of life. It's hard to say what would make people happier. The "opiate of the people"? Yes, I agree with that and I wouldn't want to take away the cosmic teddy-bear of those who need it, but I balance that against the idea of the continual wars we fight, the sheer cruelty of people who think they have a line into the Creator, then I balance this with people who find hope in sheer despair based on faith; or could we withstand a world with no moral systems at all? What if no one believed that it was wrong to kill or steal? Again, it may be argued that a system of laws could correct this sort of behavior, but I dont think to the degree that moral systems prevent it.

Anyway, yes, I think it matters a great deal to know if the Universe was "created" and by whom/what because it determines my own moral standards and tables.

I believe that the universe was created knowing how it would end up..... I know that there isn't any proof of that, but it's what I believe not what others believe.. ^_^

For myself personally what matters is the searching for the reason why it was created. Creation is a largely discussed topic in my area because of the belt. But none the less I enjoy the search for answers to just about anything that I can find. Whether its on the universe or on something else.

The existance of a creator allows for a direction in life as well as rules and ethics for our existance. Do we adhere to man made laws because of the penalties assessed by the police, or do most of us abided by rules because we believe certain actions are "right" or "wrong"?

not sure if it really matters...but id like to know. i want to see what as humans we can find out. i believe there is something greater than ourselves out there, but were i handed absolute proof tomorrow of the big bang, it wouldnt bother my beliefs a bit...it would still fit together just fine.

Now I am NOT bashing anyone's beleifs.....Warning said....

I beleive in the big bang theory. For me, creationism (god created the universe) is too far fetched for me. Were I given proof about either one tomorrow, I would freely admit I was wrong

i so have to agree with misfit....lol

science for me makes more sence. i don't know about the whole 'Big Bang' threoy now. no real proof. or not enough for me to swing me to believe that.

And truely, the earth being created in 6 days.......yeah....

but thats me.

Thank you xRobin3x.

Scientists are still finding proof that the big bang thing could have happened. Kinda like the arguments over how our moon was created.

it doesn't really matter to me how or why we got here. Whether it was God or the big bang, one way or the other, maybe neither for all I know, we're still here, and I doubt we're leaving anytime soon. I like to focus more on the present than the past when at all possible, but if there were to be undisputable proof in the future, I won't say it's wrong, I'll just be curious as to how the information was found.

i believe the universe happend by the big chaos theory that there was nothing but chaos but then a big bang of elements which created and gave balance to what is now

Like to think God does things in a very scientific way. Adds more fun to wonder if anything we were taught is "real' or not>The more we learn the less we know..

Beast stated simply but eloquently what I experienced as a child while trying to contemplate nothingness, a blank slate, the lack of existence (as humans experience it). For me, it was a visual process, a sort of rewinding and erasure. I was never able to arrive at nothing as my image of it ended in black which is something. I could go no further, but it didn't feel as if the blackness was a void, nor did the unexplained frighten or disturb me. The notion of a creator, or a grand plan for humans evaporated for me on the spot.

This was before any exposure to scientific theories re energy transformation, but that word resonates. It's a word we use in the vampire realm quite a bit, and it has personal meaning in my life.

personally i prefer to think that there is some higher being or beings who set everything in motion which is why i think that there will always be things which science can nither prove nor disprove. i also think that regardless of which religion of lifestyle one follows if they have been true to themselves and have not hurt others all the mysteries of the universe will be revealed to them upon death.

I see a number of comments regarding morals and ethical behavior as though those who hold theistic beliefs are more likely to adhere to standards of morality than those who do not subscribe to theistic beliefs. I understand that this is what many believe and it is their stated opinion.

But if we can rise above the level of mere opinion for a moment and actually examine the evidence, something quite different emerges. Atheists represent a rather low percentage of those incarcerated in prisons. And while various sources produce a range of numbers, what seems to come out in nearly every statistical study is that theists are far more likely to engage in behaviors which lead to long-term incarceration than are those who do not believe in god/gods.

Here is one such break-down of the data;

- Catholic 29267 39.164%
- Protestant 26162 35.008%
- Muslim 5435 7.273%
- American Indian 2408 3.222%
- Nation 1734 2.320%
- Rasta 1485 1.987%
- Jewish 1325 1.773%
- Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
- Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
- Moorish 1066 1.426%
- Buddhist 882 1.180%
- Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
- Adventist 621 0.831%
- Orthodox 375 0.502%
- Mormon 298 0.399%
- Scientology 190 0.254%
- Atheist 156 0.209%
- Hindu 119 0.159%
- Santeria 117 0.157%
- Sikh 14 0.019%
- Bahai 9 0.012%
- Krishna 7 0.009%
http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Percentage_of_atheists

Note that the percentage of atheists is very small (near the bottom). This is of course, only one source. But if one looks to a number of different sources, what continues to emerge is that there are fewer atheists in prison than the percentage in the free population would suggest. Meanwhile, the number of theists in prison and out of prison tends to be very similar.

It seems that atheists tend to remain responsible to themselves, rather than holding any external standard for responsibility. The data suggests that this is a more successful means of conducting one's self in a responsible manner.

I look at it this way. What I have read about the multiverse and how close they are that when they touch...big bang. I know that the WMAP measured a lot of these things etc as far as age of our Universe. Thing is there is no reason to believe that what we call science to explain things cannot compliment creation. We don't understand what a "creator" is in the physical that is why there are disputes in that area that is personal belief systems. I have heard the math and I think it is an orderly creation for the most part and it has some sort of conscious direction that in a minor way can be explained by science but not well. You know the old saying, " there is a method to my madness" Well I think there is a method to things that we don't fully understand and science can only partially explain and that is why there is anomalies in the evolution theorty. So what...if you know will it make you feel any better about anything? Will you take a number and request changes to your benefit? Sometimes there is a reason why we aren't suppose to know everything and what the reason is I don't know but it leaves us open to choose for ourselves what direction we wish to go in belief. . . To each their own! I don't think it matters one iota to know. There would always be someone who would debunk it because it conflicted with personal views...there is one or more in every crowd.

The thing to remember is that the idea that the Earth was created is nothing but an assertion -- an unsupported statement. There is zero objective evidence to support the assertion. So it's comparable to any imaginary construct such as; "sentient, purple, feathered pickles exist".

The idea that "Earth was created"...
...Has zero objective supporting evidence.

The idea that "Sentient, purple, feathered, pickles exist"...
...has zero objective supporting evidence.

Thusly, the two statements hold an identical likelihood of being true, regardless of the fact that many people believe one and it's likely that no one believes the other.

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On the other hand, we have the mapping of the cosmic microwave background radiation which supports the Big Bang, the audibility of that radiation which supports the Big Bang, the current expansion of the universe which supports the Big Bang and the current temperature of space, which supports the Big Bang; not to mention the rate at which the universe is cooling which again, supports the Big Bang.

honestly i dont think it does matter how the world was created i understand and respect different peoples beliefs but in my opinion im more concerned with the here and now rather than what started it all even though it is a testing question though... what actually did start it all???????

The here and now is important to me, too, but I've noticed a difference in how people interpret those words depending on whether or not they believe in an eternal reward . . . and yay, Catholics, #1 in prisons. Not sure if that means they just get caught more often.

I agree with Beastt's initial post, and will take it one step further. The moment before the Big Bang would be the beginning if something else was able to "create" that moment.

We've been told that anything that happened before the singularity is irrelevant to our current universe. I disagree. That singularity must have had a beginning, and whether it was "God" or a slew of cascading events, it most certainly matters to everything we've learned thus far. For those of us concerned with prediction, it also matters. Knowing where we came from helps determine where we will end up.

It is my belief that both Theistic Evolution and Intelligent Design occured in the past. To create a "creator", natural forces without input from a deity had to occur at some point in time. Once the evolution of that being (deity) occured to a point of ability, creation began. History and science both support this theory.

That explains the imperfectness of the design then, because do we really need tapeworms or Ebola viruses?

Omigod! The Masters of the Universe are praying. Just saw a clip of brokers in the French stockmarket closed down to pray!!!

Bloodmother - who said the design was imperfect? ;)

Bloodmother you are such a cynic... but that is why we appreciate you...!

Beast,
You made some points that I was elluding to, that I agree with, but I generally only have about 5 minutes a go here during the workday, so this follow-up will be short. I agree that acts committed "in the name of god" are relevant to this example, and if compiled on a massive scale might outweigh those that were not (for example, I would argue most houses are not burglarized in the name of god, I would not take into account whether the burglar was a catholic or a baptist. I can see the over-riding argument being made here, or at least this is ONE of the arguments to be made about theists and moral systems, but that is not my concern.)

My interest in the situation is as Bloodmother quickly mentioned: the idea of people taking actions that otherwise would be off the table in the thought of gaining their eternal reward. I also noted that you got your statistics from a biased source, no biggie, I know you were just throwing up an example.

But the thing is, I DO think the idea of morality is a paramount issue here because it is what concerns the "rest" of the world that is willing to disregard the examples you gave regarding science. I know and you know there are plenty of those people. So, from a strictly rational point of view (and please no offense people, I am using the words rational and reason here in a formal epistemological way) If people are willing to abandon reason in place fo faith, the question of creation becomes outstandingly important with or without scientific "proof". In fact, in many cases, theology has constructed a multitude of ways to bolster the creation argument based on lack of evidence. Therefore, to me, the idea of knowing whether the Universe was the product of creation, and to what degree becomes important from what I might call a humanist perspective as opposed to a scientific one because it helps me understand observable and what I might refer to as non-rational moral (based) behaviors.

There are a number of alternative Big Bang theories and extensions to the theory. One is a cyclic pattern of expansion and contraction. It starts with a singularity (or at any other point in the cycle), moves through the Big Bang, follows expansion of the universe to a critical point at which the sum gravitational force in the universe stops the expansion and begins to pull the universe back so that it contracts. The contraction eventually leads to a singularity and the process repeats.

With the fairly recent discovery that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, this seems unlikely which opens the door for the concept of the "Big Crunch" which is said to be one possible outcome of the continued expansion. No present theory (of which I'm aware), leads to the destruction of the base components of the universe; but only to the universe as we know it. And if those base components were once in the form of a singularity, what prevents them from returning to such a state?

I find the conclusion that the singularity must have been created at some point rather interesting. I'm not sure what leads people to such a conclusion aside from adherence to certain doctrines. I see no cause to believe that anything ever had to be created. If it has always existed, then there is no need for anything to ever be created.

When cut down to basics, there are two possibilities; either everything which exists now has always existed in one form or another, or it first didn't exist, and then came into existence. Why one would find the idea of creation more likely is a mystery to me (except of course, for the adherence to doctrines). Existence is best explained by existence (adherence to Occam's Razor). Explaining existence by proclaiming a state of non-existence seems somehow less logical -- counter-productive and counter-intuitive.

Things either had to start with non-existence or with existence. In that the universe exists, the most likely conclusion to me is that the base components (whether this turns out to be strings or something else), have always existed. Why is nothingness a more likely starting point that somethingness, when attempting to explain somethingness?

it depends on what belif you are really lol..
like in the christion belife the universe
was created on the 6th day and god rested on the 7thday

As I'm not a fundamentalist, it does'nt matter at all to me.

Re the facts and figures > I deal with forms that people fill in with information which includes a question about religion.

Here in the Uk I would say that only a small percentage of people are actually practising whatever they put down....C.O.E etc is usually what they were christened not what they follow as adults.

I said the design is imperfect, strictly as an outsider looking at someone else's work if I follow a creationist line of thought.

Taking it a step further--- and keeping in mind Sevenn's intro of moral codes of conduct and the Beast's list of the incarcerated's religious leanings--- the designer/creator takes the heat for its work, thereby usurping individual responsibility for making the world a better place.

I really don't want to discuss free will here. There are too many escape clauses with it. It's in the small print down at the bottom of the creationist contract. And it all circles back to the belief that if I was created, then my life is not my own; my reward will never be of my own making; I'm gonna have to lockstep my human existence postponing gratification; that pisses me off so I'm gonna take what I can now and damn the rest of y'all. Oops, I got caught. I'll stew over god and the unfairness of life while cooling my heels in lockdown.

Or, I'll just do what this man tells me to do because who am I? and some of this stuff sure is dangerous and humiliating, but wtf, it's so lonely when I try to think and god has a plan for me, I just know it, I'll join this vampire site and post a picture of a weeping angel with a bleeding heart cause that's my soul.

Not referring to a specific picture or avatar, just a class of them.

the fact that it was does nothing for me, the how now might make a difference to me. you know what is quite concerning for me? my previous sentance with its "was does" and its "how now". oh me oh my.

I can think of no question more imperative to our lives, more critical to the values we hold dear, and more telling of how we live our lives and find purpose therein than how we choose to answer this single question: "Are we the result of intelligent design... or simple accidental random chance?"

If the former, then we are indeed here for a purpose and to fulfill specific potentials for which this life was... intelligently designed.

If the latter, then... ultimately... nothing matters given that life doesn't matter as it all is simply a random-chance accident that has no purpose and goes back into the oblivion from whence it sprang. Thus, if this were true, values don't matter, ethics don't matter, altruism and compassion don't matter... only living by the base seflishness inherent to the Laws of Evolution, which is simply the "Law of the Jungle" and "survival of the fittest." Of course, were we to truly live by such a truly dog-eat-dog, might-makes-right view of life, can there be any doubt that Humanity would soon be inexorably driven to self annihilation and extinction?

Thus, in my strong opinion how we each view the answer to this Key Question will in great measure determine our values and the motivations behind our actions in life... and the degree of progress to which we each ultimately attain while in this life.

It does and doesn't matter to me. On one hand, I'm curious as to how exactly the universe was created because I am a naturally curious person, but on the other hand it doesn't matter to me because what is important to me is that I'm here surrounded by my loved ones no matter how everything came to be.

The question is, and should be seen as important because it is perhaps the most fundamental question we can ask. But I disagree that morals become unimportant if life arose as a natural consequence of chance rather than by sentient and intentional design.

Let's suppose the Earth and it's inhabitants were intelligently designed. Now let's assume I cross your path, club you with a bat, take your wallet and spit in your face. Does it matter to you that I've done this? Will it matter to your friends, family and the police?

Now let's suppose the Earth and it's inhabitants were the result of natural events, devoid of intelligent direction. So now I cross your path, club you with a bat, take your wallet and spit in your face. Does it matter to you that I've done this? Will it matter to your friends, family and the police?

Either way, it matters.

The answer is clear. Morality doesn't rest on the outcome of the question asked. Whether or not there was an intelligence behind the existence of life and the Earth, moral behavior still matters. That's why we find it even among what some might choose to call "lower life forms", such as bats, wolves, chimpanzees, etc.

And if we were intelligently designed, then the intelligence behind the design was painfully limited. We have a single port through which to obtain food and oxygen and that port is easily blocked by food, depriving us of oxygen, leading to death. Is that an "intelligent design"?

We have eyes which can only see part of even the visible spectrum of electro-magnetic energy. Yet we have learned to build devices which can "see" the rest of the electro-magnetic spectrum. Why not just design us to be able to sense the entire spectrum? And the sensing systems we use for electro-magnetic energy degrade over time. Many times, they distort even while we're quite young, leading to imprecise detection. The same happens to the sensors which tell us about compression waves in the atmosphere around us (ears/hearing). We have organs we don't use such as the appendix. What's that all about? Unlike some animals, the human animal has teeth which don't heal as does the rest of our bodies. Many other animals have ivory teeth. If they get a cavity, it's no more of a problem than is a chipped fingernail for us. How smart is that?

It's been said before; if we were intelligently designed, then the evidence locked within that design suggests it was by a very poor designer with very limited intelligence.
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Trying to place the whole of morality and ethical action on the balance of the question makes the people themselves devoid of value. I don't believe there is any "higher sentient power" who created the Earth or caused its creation because there is no evidence to support such an assertion. Yet it still matters very much to me how people treat each other, how I treat others and how people treat me. Moral behavior should be about people. We know without question that people exist and that the things we choose to do have a very significant effect on them.

And if the evidence doesn't matter, then no knowledge we have obtained by adhering to evidence matters. Do the mechanical systems which keep many comatose patients alive not matter? Do computers not matter? Do the lives saved through the immediate communication afforded us via cellular phone, not matter?

No matter how the Earth was created, everything still matters. But if the evidence is lying to us, then how is it that following the evidence has given us every modern convenience in life?

Wow, how do I follow that?

My thoughts are that everything boils down to science. This is not the first world to be created (and destroyed) and will not be the last. There might have been hundreds if not thousands of "earths" before us. The universe is infinate, and will continue on, long after the Bush admnistration.

I must agree. Well said.

It's very likely that other worlds with other life have come and gone and made all of the same mistakes (i.e. appeals to the subjective), which we have made.

I fully agree that morality still matters. I hope I have gotten that message across. I simply think it (the general question) greatly affects the motivations of the morality systems, and the "doers" of certain actions.

If there is intelligent design, then I fail to be capable of right action without prayer.

If there is chaos, I am right in looking to my soul for it.

And yet the design carries with it either the indication of very limited intelligence (bad design), or consistency with the outcome of selected events of random origin.

The viscosity of water coupled with the consequence of gravity can sort particles by surface area and weight faster than can any known form of intelligence. And yet viscosity is not an intelligent entity nor is gravity. One might imply evidence by looking only to the results. But by observing the mechanism, we come to understand that intelligence is neither utilized nor implied.

even in science there is creation. beast your theory that all the basic elements have always existed is false even by scientific standards as science has shown that all the elements came from hydrogen the central building block of everything we know. There are now elements that are man made that did not exist in the past and don't exist in nature. Also if you go with the big bang or any other it just happened theory then you are required to believe in bio-genesis. bio-genesis is the theory that life began from nothing it just happened. Science has duplicated the conditions on the earth at the time they say life began and has never been able to get life to just happen. One thing you also have to realize with the story of creation in the bible is that it was put in to terms that the average person could understand at that time and a lot of it is metaphorical. we assume a day to be 24hrs long because that is how long it take the earth to make 1 rotation on it's axis. If we were on any other planet a day would be a different length. we have no point of reference to know how long a day for God is so we put it in a context we understand. The bible also does not go in to great detail as to exactly how the universe was created so the big bang or what ever could just have easily been caused by a creator. which is really more plausible that a nearly infinite number of coincidences happened to create the universe, then another nearly infinite number of them to create our galaxy, another to create our solar system, another to create life on or planet and yet another to finally create us. You are more likely to win the lottery everyday of your life than for all of that to happen by chance.

Einstein's theory shows us several things but not that matter and energy are equal. it shows that the energy contained within a specific piece of matter is equal to it's mass times the speed of light squared. That was very important in the creation of nuclear weapons. It also shows that as an object approaches the speed of light it's mass increases and even more energy is continually needed to get closer to the speed of light. That's why science fiction came up with ideas like hyperspace and warp fields. The theory behind those ideas is that an artificial field is generated to warp or subvert the natural laws of physics.

As for statistics involving humans they are pretty much meaningless. "There are lies, damn lies and then there's statistics." - Mark Twain. The point being that they can be made to say anything. Without knowing all the specifics of how they were obtained there is no point of reference.

Just because a person has a faith doesn't mean that person won't commit a crime or do something immoral. If it did there would be no need for forgiveness. Also a large percentage of people in prison that have a faith acquired it while in prison. There again though you're dealing with a statistic so it is suspect. The statistics also don't likely take into account whether or not the people actually believe in the particular faith they reported themselves to be in. A person can be raised in a faith and even call themselves a part of that faith because of that but that doesn't mean they truly believe the faith or that they practice it.

I will agree that it is virtually impossible to prove anything. The only thing we can prove is to ourselves and that is "I think therefore I am." -Shakespeare I believe I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Anything beyond that is suspect because all of our senses can be fooled. Our entire lives could be nothing more than a dream.

It does matter if the universe was created or just happened. If it just happened we might as well all suck on the business end of a pistol and pull the trigger because there is no point to anything because it just doesn't matter on the grand scale of the universe. On the other hand if there's a creator then there is a higher purpose to everything and a point to everything even though we may not see it now.

The theory of evolution has a lot of holes in it. According to the theory of evolution when a creature evolves the creature it evolved from ceases to exist. We are supposed to be evolved from apes yet apes still exist. oops! There are many creatures that can not be explained by evolution. I personally believe that all creatures were created and given the ability to adapt.

Well whole modernity and growth n progress is depand on this... we are living in universe... when we live in house we think of it how it be maintained.. live in country how it be protected... universe how to progress... there are many creatures inn te world very advance from us we call them aliens and few of creatures on earth advanced in the powerful senses... its all connected to the evolution and expansion of the universe and the human civilization too is the part of this universe and those who do no care unierse and time sphere do get set back... they go to decay and fall in dark ages coz our progress too is as usual as we gain the knowledge of the universe.... we are searching the suitable planet in he universe so that our future generation in case of earth's atmosphere does not suit to human civilization, can migrate to those planets...

Wolvie,

Re: "beast your theory that all the basic elements have always existed is false even by scientific standards as science has shown that all the elements came from hydrogen the central building block of everything we know."

I neither stated nor insinuated that the "elements" have always existed. I stated the "base components" of matter... beyond elements, beyond molecules, beyond atoms, beyond protons, neutrons and electrons. Think really, really small... down to something akin to M-theory units.

And that happens to be very much in line with current science findings.
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Re: "Also if you go with the big bang or any other it just happened theory then you are required to believe in bio-genesis." bio-genesis is the theory that life began from nothing it just happened.

Actually, what you're thinking of is "abiogenesis" and it's not a theory about life just happening from nothing. It's a theory which is consistent with what we know about chemistry, about the availability of amino acids, and about replicating RNA.

A·bio·genesis - starting with non-biological matter and generating biological matter.

Current research is showing a great deal of probability behind the idea of abiogenesis. Fatty acids in a water-based fluid will spontaneously absorb nucleotide materials (catalyzed by naturally occurring clay), which then self-assemble into strands. The tiny units even display Darwinian competition for the nucleotide materials. They're not alive by any accepted definition at this point; but expecting any collection of chemicals to instantly jump from non-living to life isn't exactly realistic. It's far more sensible to suggest that they evolved (non-biological evolution), rather slowly to the point of being classifiable as life.
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Re: "One thing you also have to realize with the story of creation in the bible is that it was put in to terms that the average person could understand at that time and a lot of it is metaphorical."

I don't wish to get into a long discussion about the Bible as too many people have extremely tender toes and thin skins. Let me simply say than in only 15 verses (the first 15), the story clearly demonstrates that it's nothing more than fiction and does so with no less than four clear and obvious false-hoods.
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Re: "we have no point of reference to know how long a day for God is so we put it in a context we understand."

Again, I have no desire to engage in a long dissertation concerning the biblical Genesis. But I will suggest to you that you pick up a Bible and read the first 8-verses in which you will find a "day" defined, not once, but three times (twice in 1:5 and once in 1:8). People like to ignore that because if they don't, it leaves them with an actual 6-day creation which simply isn't plausible.

People often make the mistake of assuming that if someone doesn't believe the Bible, that they haven't read the Bible. That seems to be your assumption here and it's a false assumption.
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Re: "The bible also does not go in to great detail as to exactly how the universe was created so the big bang or what ever could just have easily been caused by a creator."

Actually, one of the biggest errors in Genesis is that it goes into far more detail than is necessary to make the intended assertion. In so doing, it presents a planet which forms covered in water (Gen 1:2)m but without an atmosphere (Gen 1:6-7) (which can't happen); an atmosphere dividing water on the planet from water "above the atmosphere" ) (Gen 1:7) (which can't happen); highly-evolved plants growing on Earth before there was a sun (Gen 1:11) (meaning they were growing without light and in temperatures below -400°F), and a sun, moon and stars which are said to have been created "in" the atmosphere (Gen 1:14-16). (That will be my last reference to Genesis in this thread. I tend work from evidence, rather than from ancient tales which readily demonstrate a lack of veracity.
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Re: "Einstein's theory shows us several things but not that matter and energy are equal."

You might wish to check your sources here because you're simply wrong. Look at the equation if you don't believe me...

E (EQUALS) M · (C^2)

Energy.... EQUALS.... MASS times (the Speed of light Squared) -- they're the same thing.

Mass and energy are two forms of the same thing. The bomb dropped on Hiroshima converted six-tenths of a gram of matter directly into energy and the yield was 12.5 kilotons of energy.

.6 grams --> 12.5 kilotons

And that has nothing to do with hyperspace warps, time-travel or any of the other things you've attempted to mix into the theory.
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Re: "As for statistics involving humans they are pretty much meaningless."

I think what you mean to say is that they're meaningless when they don't support what you want to believe, but represent the truth when you agree with what they say.

There have been a number of such studies and the one thing that emerges from all of them is that atheists tend to be less likely to engage in immoral conduct that theists. Note that the "immoral conduct" is that which harms other people, not that which violates the various doctrines of the various religions.

Re: "I think therefore I am." -Shakespeare I believe I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong."
Rene Descartes, not Shakespeare.
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Re: ""It does matter if the universe was created or just happened. If it just happened we might as well all suck on the business end of a pistol and pull the trigger because there is no point to anything because it just doesn't matter on the grand scale of the universe."

What people attempt to do by granting themselves eternal life via religious/spiritual beliefs is to suggest that they are each more significant than the whole of the universe. The universe isn't eternal in any specific form, yet people wish to assert that if they aren't eternal, then they have no purpose. Purpose is not assigned. It's something you must work for. If you find no purpose for yourself, then perhaps you have no purpose. If you seek purpose for yourself, it's not that hard to find. But if you insist on being more important than the whole of the universe and feel that anything less leaves you without purpose, then I'm sorry, but you will not find that for which you are searching.

Well ancient theosophy the science is accepting...

its the birth of universe from zero point and at the same time the balancing thread of matter and no matter imerged as first particles and on that the formulation of the universe and destruction of the universe written as it is written on bio genetics...

Well funnily enough how the universe was created doesn't bother me. I believe that the energy has always been there it just over time slowly moulded into something more substantial.

I believe the universe is still creating and developing itself... still growing and learning from all the live that is created and resides within it.

I think we are mere specks of dust still developing and growing.

I tend to leans towards the various Pagan views...Chaos created order...Chaos is both 'father of all' and merely the energy that surrounds us all in his infinite search for carnal pleasures delivered to the physical manifestations of his power...wow it's as though Miroku and Master Roshi decided to create the universe...but less 'models' in bikini's all over the place...

Re:"It does matter if the universe was created or just happened. If it just happened we might as well all suck on the business end of a pistol and pull the trigger because there is no point to anything because it just doesn't matter on the grand scale of the universe."

If someone else created me, then they must have a Plan. The plan resonates, is fairly brimming over, with Destiny. Ergo, if it’s all planned out, then it doesn’t matter what I do. For me, this would be the time for the pistol.

Belief in intelligent design may give some people purpose in their lives, but for the vast majority it removes individual responsibility in Designing their own lives.

I have always believed that we choose to be here. As an individual you decide to come here to learn and expand your knowledge. That the design of our life and our purpose is in our hands not someone else's.

I believe this post was about "Why it matters to us" and the discussions of which ideological thoughts are right is off topic.

A truly nihilistic viewpoint would become unpredictable and serves in and of itself no point.

I believe it matters for what I stated above, as well as mankind has a need for comprehension. This drive to understand and not simply lay down has given us the concepts of fire, working tools, automobiles, computers ... etc.

This is how we are built.

Is there any particular reason you feel the need to argue with me when I'm agreeing with you?

Regarding the word anomaly, the Big Bang is a singularity and the event is unique to that particular situation. It IS anomalous to the rest of the processes of the universe. We accept that certain laws govern these processes, but at the time of, and shortly before, the event known as the Big Bang, those laws do not/did not/ and will not exist. This makes it abnormal in comparison to the rest of the universe, otherwise known as an anomaly.

I did not realize I was arguing a point against you in this topic.

I apologize Archide.

That statement was directed at Beastt.

It would be anomalous for a fetus to write a book report. It's not at all anomalous for a child to write a book report. Yet these are two stages of the same entity. Likewise, it would be anomalous for a school-aged child to receive all of their nutritional and oxygen needs via a tube feeding directly into the circulatory system, yet this is the standard for a developing fetus and not at all anomalous for the fetus.

The same holds true with the universe. Pre-Big Bang, it would not be anomalous for a singularity to form (to the best of the knowledge we can currently hold). If one looks to the post-Big Bang universe and suggests the singularity is an anomaly, they're attempting to compare an event at one stage, which occurred only at a different stage. It's something like suggesting that receiving all metabolic fuels through a direct circulatory link (umbilical cord), is anomalous for a child, when no such thing actually occurred. It occurred only during the fetal stage at which point is was quite normal and not at all anomalous.

Somehow I feel that had the universe never formed none of us would really find any reason to care.

I think that Big Bang happend and no one that wrote biblical history could explain it so they decided that God created earth. Gimme a break. I think that the religious fanatics need to get with the science geeks and hammer out some sort of compromise on how it all happened in the first place.

For the most part I agree.

However, I do not believe it to be appropriate to ever compromise the truth, even in reverence to "sacred" superstitions.

The evidence all points to the Big Bang. No evidence points to creation and if you look specifically to one ancient creation tale, it shows itself to be wrong.

I love my universe whether it is created or not...

I love my universe here inthe universe the energies... here in the universe you charming peepal shines most in the darkness...

I love my universe and I am unbreakable part of this universe....

here i do get cosmic energy forces...


I love my universe...


please the universe matter me...

The Universe is charming most...


What? Odes to the Universe most likely belong in your journal from now on.

I will step out an post here, hoping that I am respected as I am respecting all the other posts.

There are far too many reasons to list why it would be important, and I don't want to sound like I am preaching... so I can't give all the reasons here and make this post out like I am preaching. I don't preach. I talk about things when I am asked and like to keep them private from public forums that were not meant to be religious themed. But I can be basic :)

It's no secret that I believe in God. It is important to me to know that this world was created, but it is not important to me to know that it was created as read in Genesis. It is my personal belief through intense study and hob-nobbing with other Theologians that the Bible is full of myths- but just because something isn't fact doesn't mean it is not true. Truth and fact are not the same. I mean this regarding parables, and other forms of creative writing that produce truth without being factual. I believe the Biblical creation story is one of the biggest myths of all time. But I do not mean myth in the way that people define the word today. Did you all know that there are in fact TWO creation stories in Genesis??? It's easy then to believe that what is going on here is, a point is being made, simply.

If I am wrong about God, it won't hurt me one bit to have believed. It of course doesn't bother anyone who does not believe, just as it usually doesn't affect someone when someone else misses their plane, soda is flat, parent died, and so on. You might feel bad, but it doesn't affect you. This is as personal as it gets.

I am: No offense taken. We think alike on multiple issues and topics that I've seen so far.

I honestly don't have an oppinion on this. Do I believe the earth has always existed? no I don't. But as to where the earth came from, where humans came from ETC. I have no clue. I think the better question is, will we ever know?

"Be here now." - Ram Dass

Personally I believe that the universe was created by an outside force using the laws of physics. I also think that "shit happens" regardless of a persons belief and regardless of if theres a "God" or not, thats part of life.

Why I believe this is 2 fold:

1) The universe is far to complicated to be a series of random events. Mathematically the human eye is more complicated in its creation and structure than a star and the human brain is the most complicated thing in the 156 billion light year universe we know of.

2) It matters, personally, because if the universe just "happened" and we all came from random events in primordial soup then there is no such thing as right and wrong, it would all be relative. There would be no purpose for life except whatever we made it to be. If there was a conscious act of creation (via God) then that would mean that theres more to the wee bit the human race and individuals face.

I believe this both from a scientific perspective and personal faith. Until one is proven wrong belief in both is fully justified and there are no contradictions in terms.

Just my opinion ;)

Xzavier, why wouldn't there be a moral gradient of right or wrong?

We humans have more in common with each other than we do with some amorphous being who supposedly handed down a set of rules?

In essence, the rules were drafted by humans "as told to," sort of ghost writers for god.

All of the interpretations have been written and argued by humans.

The only difference would be in owning the authorship.

" There would be no purpose for life except whatever we made it to be."

Exactly what we do anyway, without a higher recourse for blame or succor.

"If there was a conscious act of creation (via God) then that would mean that theres more to the wee bit the human race and individuals face. "

What we face is immense, glorious, intense, and we'd appreciate it more, take better care of it and each other, if we finally realized that there is no thing beyond what we have.

BM, while I agree that our lives are not simple walks in the park the biggest troubles we face are a matter of our own perceptions and how we view the events surrounding our lives. How we perceive reality often outweighs the truth of it.

As for a lack of moral gradient we must remember that morals are based in belief and faith, ethics are based on society and its norms. You and I may agree that killing an adulterer or weak infant is wrong and reprehensible it does not mean that those things are "wrong." Without a higher mandate where we are held responsible for keeping our lives in a set order there would be little to stop us from burning witches alive, killing homosexuals or hitting a woman for wanting to vote.

Ethics are a matter of personal opinion and are subject to change according to primal emotions. Even if I am wrong and there is no God and the universe was created by chance it is still important for people to believe that there is something more than society and their personal biases governing human action.

to me,its doesn't really matter,as long i can fight in life and search for any good meaning that teach by mother of nature,everything in it just so beautifull to learn it.

but,what was or how was world be created,i think religion and science are very close.

and there is already pfoofed that human existence are created by GOD.

I am going to agree with the post above and say that even if we did learn the way the universe was made I don't see how it would effect my daily life in the slightest...

A quick note before I reply fully a bit later.
People and their interpretation of a religious belief system have killed witches. From a Christian perspective God never said to do anything of the sort. Faith and Religion are two different things. Remembering also that Christianity proper only deals with part of the Bible not all of it, after all the Old Test. is of the Jewish faith.

Thats the extent I'll discuss religion in the forum :)

Science claims to be a methodology but it is far from a non biased set of numbers. Science is as much a religion as anything else. When we get data we interpret it according to what we wish to find. Heck a lot of "proofs" for Darwinian evolution has been proven to be nothing more than hoaxes and out right lives. (Not saying I don't believe in evolution, just not as Darwin presented it).

The main point being it is illogical to think the universe and life are just random occurrences.Even a cycle of big bangs/crunches must have had an actual beginning and creation. Everything doesn't come from nothing. However it is possible for matter to come from nothing as defined. Matter and the laws of physics only exist in the current state of the universe. Quantum bubbles can destroy all forms of matter, re-arrange it and make water into a rock, a rock into an MP3 player and the slowest possible speed the speed of light.

I think sometimes we forget that there can be an assumed purpose.

That, though an option of there not being original intent may not have been there, our existence could allow us to pick up a role and play it. Based on what we find worthy.

Like a sandbox. It does not need to be worthful outside of us, to have true meaning. We are enough.

Why does it matter?
If what you're trying to say is, well, we're here now, so why does it matter how it started..I have an answer. =]

if there's somebody out there who created EVERYTHING, then I would want to know, so I could pay my respects. Because if there's a God out there, then I'm sure he created us for some purpose, so I'd try to figure that out.
Partly because I'm a nice person, partly because I have no clue what my true purpose is, and partly because I really don't wanna be damned(at least I'm honest lol)

If I created the universe...I'd want people to try and figure out it was me. But that's just my opinion.

When I think about it I don't think that how the universe was created matter that much as long as we live our lives. But I can not say that I haven't thought about it. And if I had to choose something to believe in I'd say that it was an accient, a marvelous and interesting one. But I really don't believe anything. I'm Swedish, we're all so damn neutral all the time. :P

I guess I hope that there is some intelligent design behind the creation of the universe and our place in it. I wish that there is someone benevolent watching over me and my friends and my family...I think it doesn't really matter if there was a "big bang" and everything evolved from there or if the biblical stuff is true, anyway right now we could use some divine intervention...so if he or she is out there ... I hope they notice the stuff going on down here pretty soon! :)

why does it? we are here it is here everything is good

In some ways it is good. In other ways it's not as good. Do you think anyone realized that the Earth could be destroyed by a cosmic object like an asteroid three-hundred to four-hundred years ago? If they did, how many would have believed them?

We understand this today and are looking for methods which might lead to a measure of control and safety because we are gaining an understanding of the universe. Knowledge is not a bad thing. Knowledge is the only means by which we can hope to hold any level of control over our environment.

And knowledge comes from science, not from proclaimed divine influence, (never so far). So it matters that we know and understand and it matters that we understand from where knowledge comes and from where misconceptions come, learn to recognize the difference and prepare ourselves for reality. Reality doesn't care what we believe. We must deal with reality. Reality doesn't have to deal with our beliefs.

Re: the earth being destroyed by a comet.

The ancients saw shooting stars and asteroids and other observable atmospheric phenomena for which they had no explanation.

Early humans saw their existence as part of a spiral of life and death and regeneration. Regeneration is essential to understand because fundamentally it means that death is not absolute. The wellspring of faith begins here.

Humans were part of nature, but I think early man differentiated himself to a certain extent from animals. Early art by itself shows this as it is thought and prayer enlivening a cave wall.

With thought and the observable heavens above, the ancients applied a process: the star shot across the sky for a reason. It was propelled by something.

I don't think they were capable of an existential shite happens causality in their thinking.

They were thinking, and they were aware they were thinking, and that's about as far as it went. Not much has changed for a lot of people since then.

Thank you for explaining how logical evolution and random occurrences are, I'll have to keep that in mind during the physics class I teach lol. Randomness and/or chaos are conceived ideas which attempt to explain a perceived lack of understanding. The universe and all thats in it have come from a set of rules which exist only in this universe. Should the universe tear itself apart there would be no physics, laws, time, memory, past, present or future.

The very nature of all things is the understanding of contradiction. We do not live in a logical world (1+1=2) for many times 1+1=3. Contradiction is a part of science and existence, without it things could not be.

As for science being a multi-tiered review process which isn't a religion I simply say nothing can be further from the truth.

In a perfect world science would be the search for the truth based upon physical, reproductive evidence. But it is not. Proof is considered proof when it fits the theory in many cases. Scientists will hold on to their ideas years after it has been proven wrong and will also skew results.
Not to mention that all evidence is subject to interpretation which is determined by personal wishes/belief. Using flawless mathematics I can prove that Churchill was a carrot and by taking local ground readings I can say that the earth was formed in a specific manor, regardless of the broader picture.

No matter how hard we try we can not definitively say anything "is" or "isn't" until we have full knowledge of all systems. Even I refrain from saying that I know that I know anything.

Let us not forget that this universe only exists within itself and yet was created by something outside of itself. Recent studies of cosmic background radiation proves that with little doubt.

Seeing however that this thread isn't about the tenants of religion, methods of physics or the nature of belief I think I've answered topic.

Wow personally there are too many thing that can't be explained by science for me. Also for me it relates to death and the want to know if there is a higher power to answer too. So I tend to believe in the creation before evolution.

it doesnt matter really

There are some really educated replys to this post, most of which are great IN THEORY since our math is only suited for the universe we live in. Theologically, prove it!

How the Universe was created doesn't matter. What matters is BREAD.

The more bread you have the less shit you have to eat!

OOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!

Eat more bread.

Prove love. And when you do, how are you doing it? By the way you 'feel', and 'do' things? Well... it's the same for faith.

me personally i dont separate science from religion... what ever force created me is my god.... you know what im saying? i dont admit to know what made me but i worship the archetype which is the universal flow... i dont tend to think of something separate from myself... law of singularity... the totality of all is my god, i am my own god... but so are you.

But Images, LOVE is flawed for many people, and in very harmful and humiliating ways. It sure must feel good though because they don't seem to learn from their mistakes. They have believe in love, in their idea of love. They have faith in it. When I look at FAITH and LOVE in that way your analogy is apt.

Iam: I'm with you most of the way.

to me this an excellent question i have always been taught to believe in creation so i have but i must wonder if some species has or not evolved making us into what we are today.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.