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With the recent push for change in the forums, and the knowledge that your Sand Box posts probably won't stick around and do you much good, there's a big push to find some topic to post here in this Forum. With that comes debate.

I've been reading through the discussions here and have been wary of posting in many places. It seems that quite a few people feel that anyone disagreeing with the main point (or ensuing discussion) is flaming them.

I would like to point out that disagreement can happen without an attack, no one should take it as a personal attack if their idea is challenged. The options you have are to support your idea or consider that the other person has a fairly sound point (even if it doesn't work for you).

If you feel as though you've been flamed, to avoid taking the thread even further off topic, why not calmly state that you are not going to respond to someone's personal attack of you. Then PM a Dominar and ask them to remove the offending message?

Doesn't that make more sense than flaming back and risking your entire discussion?

However, since I want to stress this point I will say it again: do not assume that anyone disagreeing with your opinion is doing so because they don't like you. If they disagree with you, the other side of that is you disagreeing with them - that is what brings about interesting discussions.

You can deal with this constructively and learn to see how others view the topic at hand. It's also helpful to defend your opinions and beliefs. How do you know they're right for you if you can't bring yourself to defend them?

In addition, Dominars, I haven't been around much in awhile, so I don't really know the latest policies, but I do co-run a forum or two of my own elsewhere. It seems that RIP'ing or RIA'ing an entire discussion because one person starts flinging four letter words defeats the purpose of expanding the topics that are going into the ever-expanding database here. Why not just delete the offending post and send a PM off to the person losing their cool? This way the discussion survives and the BS is gone.

Debate is good, everyone should stop running from it and use it to their benefit.

True. Words typed and words said are different in that emotions cant be read as easily wich is why its a good idea to sometimes place something like this after your argument ( no offence to anyone its just my personal beleif )
and so on and so forth.
But people should keep an open mind even if they know 100% that somethings right it could still be wrong.
Depending on ones definiton of the word "wrong".

i love it...and i totally agree with you nyx. i love debating but 1/2 the time you're afraid what to say because so many people end up taking it wrong

Yes, debate is good, otherwise this wouldn't be a democracy. I feel as long as it is opinion, and not viscious, say what you must.

Part of the problem that I see as a Dominar is that many members do not wish to take the time to spell out what they want to say.

They will use Internet short hand and expect everyone to understand their use of it, or they just mention one part of their view without expansion as to what that entails and then accuse others of not "understanding" them.

To have these forums work well time, effort and thought MUST go into postings. Not just fly by handle posts. Explain what you mean, make an effort to get your view across.

Sadly sometimes the only choice we have is to close a thread especially when 80% of it has gone off topic or into mocking of the poster.

Please do message Dominars; I know I am always glad to know if something is going on in a thread, even if I've already seen it. Remember we have friends here too and are not 100% of the time in the forums.

The forums are EXACTLY what VR members make them out to be. If time is not taken, the members who do spend time stop going into the forums and the over all tone goes down hill. Take some time to make these forums what you would want them to be.

if you notice a lot of the threads are debating threats anyways. I dont think stating one's opinion should be taking personally by anyone. however, i do agree that some do take it to other means.

I love this thread Nyx! And I would like to add that we all need to remember that everyone has their own way of thinking and processing information, just like we all have our opinions. I wish everyone would grasp the concept of letting others exress their opinons without trying to cram them down anothers throat, or to be flat out rude if one does not agree. Like the "Golden Rule" says, If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.

See and it's short bits like that that should stay out of a thread.
A big problem and sorry if someone already mentioned this, is that when a new member goes to post a thread, good or not, it's already up somewhere or in the wrong section. Instead of making the short time we have with the thread worthwhile by teaching the person proper use of the forums, we lash out and bash them for it. Everyone trying to gain some sort of status or title.
It causes someone who could be a brilliant person for discussion, to hide away, wary of the reprocutions to posting again. This allows the "I'm always right" crowd to take over any thread eventually turning it into flaming, because we can prove them wrong but they stilll don't back down.

Bows Respectfully:

I'll agree as well.
For the basis of all Being interaction is the ability to communicate effectively.

Guidacarta Di Nerezza

I enjoy a good discussion but admit to having been run off a thread before due to them becoming just angry posts confronting each participant. I already know my opinion on the topic. I want to hear the opinions of others especially if they disagree with me. But I refuse to argue about it. I’m here to learn and enjoy myself not demand everyone prove their opinions as if scientific fact. If it’s unclear ask them what they mean but it doesn’t require treating another as if they are stupid. Thank you for giving me this thread to post this, My Opinion on the matter.

I love debating.... but I hate it when someone is losing the debate and changes to personal attacks. Its weakness.

lol you my brilliant one have hit many nails heads,
I have always adored your logic....... and 'again" YOU hit many points" some /many of us have been afraid to address.........Debate is healthy ....flaming isnt.........if everyone would learn the differnce between debate and a"discussion...without being head strung It would be fine........ you rock Nix!!!!~does the woot woot ~ thing..............

I know what you are talking about. People get very offended when the point that they are making is disagreed with. People get really uptight about it. Debating topics is good and it helps other people learn more about it but it defeats the puropse of discussion when the topic is RIP or RIA. People just need to chill out a little bit and not take things to personal.

There is a vast difference between asserting ones opinion and being aggressive. There is also a deeo gorge between an opinion and a fact.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."

-- Daniel Patrick Moynihan (U.S. academic and senator, 1927-2003)

i always thought that debating was against VR rules? but i guess not i love debating on certain topics that im knowledgeable about but as u say many take it the wrong way. and as u said contact the dominars if u feel offended. great thread you have here as it may prove to be helpful when using such a strict forum as this

Debating isn't against the rules. They just don't want it out of control.

Its' not that debating is against the rules, what good is a forum topic without a little disagreement. Its debating to the point where simple discussion turns into flaming and bashing someone elses opinion...that is against the rules.

Raziel, debating is different than flaming.

Yes debates are allowed provided they are done in a polite manner. Which brings up another point that causes many issues in the forum.

The lack of good manners. There are some here who would make the conversations informal even with those members they do not know. To do so with a person you know well, is different than doing so with a stranger.

It leads to assumptions... and we all know where that goes... down the drain.

It is always good to discuss dissenting views and ideas. Debate should always be accepted

It is nice that the Dominars (Dominars, right? Not "moderators"?)have their heads around the rules. And, with the great system of ranks we can always know what is right or wrong for all of us. :)

thank you sahahria for the clarification, as when i disagree with some threads or points of view i have refrained from debating and voicing my different view, as i will remember this and when i disagree i surely will not be rude or flame someone and i dont think i really ever have, thank you

Yes, debate and frank, open discussion without censorship is always good!

Great thread Nyx! We all have our personal beliefs and I love to hear everyone's different way of thinking and what they believe in is important to them and I respect that. I love to share my opinion in hopes that someone else might get a different point of view as I have from others.. It is hard to make me feel offended because I don't take anyone else's opinion personal, for me it's about learning and sharing.

I took some time to think about this more. Perhaps it is up to the thread creator to guide the thread where they wish. If they would only want the thread to be a listing of those that share the same opinion as them they should state it. Action could be taken if this doesn't happen. If they want to give a multiple choice of answers, then let people post olny about the one that suits them. Again, action taken if it goes outside of that. If the creator wants a free for all, and possible debate style arguments, they can state that they are ready and willing for this. I say that the original post should be the most important thing monitored, since it will give a good sign of what should be in the thread. Careful planning should be used when making a thread. If you ask 'What do you think...' you open it up for people actually doing that. If people are told that they can't say 'what they think' most will tend to get combative and perhaps start flaming. I just say we are more clear on the intentions of our threads.

I see nothing wrong with a healthy dose of emotion in a response. Flaming, as I understand it to have always meant, was not so much arguing as just insulting. I've had some really exciting debates both here and on other sites where one could definitely call the tone argumentative. I also feel that there is nothing wrong with questioning the accuracy or depth of research in a response.

One hopes that if a debate or thread were to veer too far into the realm of insults and epithets that it would be edited or removed as this is not a democracy so much as a gentle monarchy. And one would also hope that in their benevolent duties, the dominars will give a thread due course to iron itself out before any of the more fatal solutions are used.

On a somewhat related note...Where's the Angry Dwarf when we need him?

Ok ty Nyx for this thread hello all the title of this forum is "General Discussion" that means we can all have a point of view and talk about our views. I got tired of many of the threads due to the very fact noone was discussing just say yeah sure its that way and if someone came in and said hey I see it differently they were either skipped over or people got upset and said stuff to them..
I want to talk about my points of view learn things from others and show them things I have learned as well.Debating can be fun even if people would step back and realize this person isnt attacking me personally just might have issues with the way I see things, best thing about this is you can agree to disagree you veiw point and theres may never be the same...
Thats even great because if we all agreed to the same stuff what a boring world this would be.
We all have minds and idea's and we can share those here hopefuly without being ridiculed by others because our beliefs arent theres.
Like I said this is a place of sharing and discussion..
Nyx thank you so very much for having this thread again :)

I have to confess that it turns me off from continuing to post in particular threads because of someone's insinuation that I am flaming them, attacking their view, or going off topic simply because I didn't agree with their stance and have made points to express why.

I think largely that it comes down to a person being able to understand the difference between constructive cryticsim and unconstructive. some people, believe it or not, simply can not except any challenge on any level to there way of thinking. other people can accept an alternate view point and discuss it with intelligence. i think that that is what is missing from alot of people

If someone is personally attacking me because I may have misunderstood the thread or just have a different point of viewing a topic, it's hard for me to take offense because I use what people say like a tool if they get (ugly) with me I learn that this is the way this person functions and I just don't respond to them. If they have a difference of opinion I take that and learn what I can from it. I have noticed anger and I just choose to not respond making it easy for me to stay focused on the thread itself.

Thank you, Nyx and others for this thread. I believe it has really been beneficial to all that have read it, even if they did not respond to it.

I have started to respond in several threads, then come back to it and see how the discussion has gone and have decided to just read and not comment further. That is a pity and what so many have done as well.

Some people feel so strongly and are so passionate about their thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc that they tend to get carried away. Personalities are also that the written word is easily misintrepreted if the person has not downright been rude and change a healthy debate into a flame war.

Domainars are so important for that reason and have their work cut out for them. Hopefully, we'll have excellent viewpoints to further enlighten us in many threads to come.

I have to say this is a great thread, and i know I have the tendency to be a caustic bastard myself.....
but that said i do try to form my displeasures in intelligent fashion and give appropriate reasonings for the claims I make, and it is a very rare thing that I take something personally.

Debate can be a beautiful part of live. It's a (usually) civil way to dispute your differences. It's a really good way to express your individuality. No one should be afraid of who they are correct? Everyone just needs to express themselves freely. Life is alot less misunderstood when people say things straight out instead of just keeping to themselves and giving "signs"

Jeez you guys have posted a lot since I went to work this morning. I can’t answer all the points I’d like to right now, but I will ask you all to remember that we had this discussion and that at least the 25 or so people in this thread are on board with the idea that debating is ok.

I had an awesome paragraph that went here, but then I hit backspace and the browser backed up a page and I lost it, so please just pretend I said something brilliant here.

The final thing I’d like to touch on, and get people’s input on (including you Dominars out there): when a person makes a new discussion, does that mean they get to be the boss of it from that point on, or is it then up to the responders and ensuing discussion to define the rest of the thread? Because normally a discussion will naturally wander from one place to another while still staying on the main topic, but there are some out there who most definitely don’t want “their” discussion going that way. So input and clarity on that would be nice..

Debate is healthy and sometimes can help us forum opinions. As far as blasting people here in the forums or even on profiles is just wrong in some cases. It is alright to disagree with someone. But do it with discussion and be an adult about it.

Sad thing with being online, and typing to others, there is no inflections in your tones as you write. Sadly people take words literally here because that is all they have to go on. Sometimes there are ways of saying things without offending and sometimes there isn't.
And then there are those that just want to feel like they are being attacked even if they are not.
I don't think things should be taken personally unless it is specifically directed at one person.
Debating is a great thing to do, and it has the potential to open the minds of those that are not aware.

Don't be afraid to speak your mind.

I for one enjoy debate. I am not afraid of anothers opinion on a topic, and welcome different views other than my own. My was is not the right way for everyone. I also enjoy following the different ways a thread wanders before it comes back to the "main" topic, again this is something that I enjoy following.

I would have to second that question that Nyx wrote to the Administration and the Dominars about the authority of those that make the threads.

I have been told at times that my deviation from the subject isn't condusive to the discussion as it is. While I have my own views on whether it is or not should I be more open to the whether or not the thread opener has the definite say on this or not?

That is reasonable Nihonin. I have always felt that if you wanted to really run the discussion you need to be there guiding it by asking questions, giving examples, and taking a direct role in where it goes.

Some of us just aren't sure how far the officiating authority is for those that make the discussion versus people who speak the topic and move it in a way perhaps that was never intended.

this is why i always tell people not to argue with me becasue im not gonna change they're opinion and they're not gonna change mine, and if either happens then its by unexpected chance.

Well, that's kinda how I see it, Nihonin. I often see the person who created the thread demanding things from people, but I wanted to hear what others thought of it.

I, personally, don't have the time or energy to babysit a thread I've started, but I would definitely check back and throw in any input or questions I had on where the discussion ended up.. sorta like now.

So we have agreed that debate is healthy and good. Also, flaming is bad, but it is up to the thread creator or those involved if it is actually flaming or just strong debating. If I could offer my suggestions...

The dominars moderate, since any forum always need moderators. I say if something gets serious, bordering on harrassment, posts should be deleted or locked. If there is what that dominar would see as flaming, send private message to those involved telling them to calm down. We agree that posts will wander to and from their initial purpose, so they can be helped back around in a private manner. Opinions?

Very wise and sound advice. Sometimes words can be misread or your point could be misunderstood... I find myself hesitant to speak on topics, mostly because I am a little shy putting myself out there to be flamed :) But it only makes you stronger right!

well i think if every one states y they thing in the way they do on a point it shouldnt be taken as amed at any one in potick i guess the easy way is just to think about the way we word things so they cant be taken wrong

I agree with a lot of what I've read in this thread, and that goes for both sides. My problem lies with the fact that it seems that there are people who post in here (and I'm not going to further that statement because I don't want to anger people, or make people think I'm targeting them in particular) who don't seem to want anyone who has an opposing opinion to respond to the post, even if the person goes into an explanation. It just seems that there are some people on here who are closed minded, and who don't want to change.

LovesEternalDeath- very true. Condescending comes to my mind on a few.
I read the forum and learn from all the threads, but post to very few for that reason alone.

I agree Wholeheartedly, everythhing that is said so far. Debating a topic is great way to see different vies on any subject. Unfortunately, there are many that see it as a personal attaack, no matter how it is worded. This Thread will hopefully give those who don't understand the meaning of Debate an understanding that just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't mean that they are attacking you.
And an understanding to those that disagree that to disagree with a topic does Not mean to attack the poster of the opinion you disagree with.

I've found that when one exercises too much effort on leading the direction of a thread as opposed to simply nudging further discussion, the results will typically be a dead thread...One sided arguments don't last long and no one likes to be shoved too hard in one direction of conversation.

I'd like to point out that as the 'caustic bastard' stated in his own way (and I agree), emotion, sarcasm, wit and even anger have their place in debate so long as it is still directed towards a purpose of furthering discussion as opposed to simply trying to insult someone into silence.

PS. that was fantastic debating with Cancer! Intelligent and well researched debate supporting strong beliefs that I almost completely disagreed with :)

Like LadyWinterRogue said, I am also very shy & hesitant to speak out on topics! I think because of me being very shy, occassionally I have taken responses to what I have said the wrong way. In doing that I have felt attacked & in turn responded in a way I shouldn't at times. I don't doubt that I have done that! I am glad that the threads are monitored. Sometimes statements or opinions can be easily taken the wrong way. I am open to others opinions & think discussing them are great. However I do think sometimes they are taken to far. I am really glad that Nyx made this post! Thank you for that! It does help to clarify some of what is okay & what isn't!

I also have avoided posting in threads where it seems like it's just 2 or 4 people arguing. To me that's not debate. I enjoy hearing others points of view it makes me think about mine. What I don't like is "no...I said this" " but you meant...." over and over.
Great thread!

I agree with what everyone has said here, but I'd just like to point out that opinion is usually based on perception. I'd like to remind the forum that it's not often that people think exactly alike.

So no matter what you say, someone will disagree with you. You can count on that.
See, some of you are disagreeing already :P LoL

Reminding me of today's lesson: "It's not what you say that matters; it's all in how you say it." Which doesn't work on the internet because not many people can really read your tone. So keep it tasteful.

*runs in screaming* It's all about ME ME ME!!!

*SIGH* ok so that is a bad attempt at humor...

The reality is I think people want to have others understand THEM, so they confuse their thoughts or opinions as themself.

Naturally when someone disagrees with what they have said, it is taken as an attack on THEM. Which it is merely a disagreement of thought.

I personally am glad we do not have "official" rules as to how the forum threads are to be run. Too many rules create the worst kind of apathy. Besides some of the most interesting conversations are in the conflict of disagreement.

Not all Dominars agree with me, but that is why there are several of us. Each one has an area they like and tend to watch more than others. Creates its own imperfect balance if you would.

But now back to ME ME ME!


;)

"Naturally when someone disagrees with what they have said, it is taken as an attack on THEM. Which it is merely a disagreement of thought.

... Besides some of the most interesting conversations are in the conflict of disagreement."

Why is it that only 1 out of 20 posters get this?!?!?!? That is the perfect example of how a thread should be.
The most interesting conversations I have ever had are over a disagreement. Be it religion, politics, vampirism, whatever, if you can take one of these topics and form it into a mature and intelligent debate with examples, evidence, coherent sentence structure...we could have some of the best threads on the web. But like Sahahria said, too many people think that it's all about them.

I agree that everything should be dealt with on an individual bases, and that an entire thread should not be deleted because of a fight inside the thread but the fight itself should be taken out of the thread as long as everything else is on topic and of relevance

Agreed felix, discussions with Cancer are a disturbing, informative, and almost painful mental exercise, it's great, haven't done it too often myself tho

There is no way to keep a fight out of a thread...take one of vampariah's threads for example. He actually posted a logical question that didn't ramble and all people wanted to do was bash him and his "irrationality" left and right. What started as a fantastic and debatable thread had to be shut down because too many people continued their bashing...even after it was removed by SEVERAL dominars. On top of that, too many people have the issue of posting "cool" or "i agree" or something of that nature. The effort it takes on part of the dominars and on part of the people that actually want to discuss without interruption of "morons" would cause more chaos and drama than necessary.

nyx i totally agree and saharia .. but to many people do take things as an attack on them and i have posted things before with an honest disagreement to what they were saying and was totally read the wrong way wich has made it to were i dont want to post in the general discussions anymore...... alot of the times it is like if you dont agree with the forum poster of the thread you are bashing them ..when all your trying to do is just put how you feel about the subject. and it dose seem like more and more it just turns into argueing........i would really like to see the fun in debateing come back and see all the outher sides to how people feel about a certain subject then just have people post that they agree so it doesnt turn into a agrument about whos bashing who........i rarely post because of thes reasons. and i know theres probably many out there who do not post for the same reasons.if your gonna start a debate everyone needs to rember it is that a debate diffrent sides to a subject and not everyone has the same views on every subject .and everyone should respect everyone elses thought or belifes......and because one might not agree with a subject does not mean they are attacking you......its just the way they feel or belive......

Whats the big deal, really?

Just wade in with an opinion.

If someone gets their knickers twisted and turns it into a bitch-fest, they will be dealt with appropriately.

The problem is that when this happens threads get closed, or we end up with the person who created the thread thinking they get to boss everyone around and direct the thread. It gets old fast.

This was more about getting people to understand that not every disagreement is a personal attack - if they can acknowledge it themselves, outside of a heated debate/argument, then they are less likely to jump into that line of thinking when the opportunity shows itself.

OK, it's unfortunate that threads will be closed, but this doesn't prevent them being reposted once the offender(s) have been dealt with.

And yes, a lot of times I've seen people get heckles up because they feel they are being singled out for attack, so I would see your points here, but there is a constant influx of new members, so there will always be someone who misreads, or miscommunicates.

And yes, it is down to Dominars to manage these situations, but to be frank, the 'flamings' on VR aren't all that aggressive and even when they are, they are put down pretty quickly.

If the heat is too great, the kitchen has an exit, as they say.

And that is why this is such a good thread. We need to make it clear that good threads shouldn't be closed due to troublemakers or whiners. Debate doesn't mean off-topic... and if there is flaming, delete those posts and don't close the thread in general. About the same energy is exerted~ and Dominars KNOW how easy Cancer has made it to delete specific posts. That doesn't mean delete posts that disagree.

A Dominar has to look at a thread with a non-biased attitude. They can participate as themselves with their individuality~ but you don't use Administrative action on threads because you personally don't like it.

Thanks Images, that's pretty much the second point to this discussion.

Stabb, I get irritated when perfectly good topics are closed after 50 replies have been made, it's not simple to recreate that in a second thread. The other problem is, since there is such little tolerace for flaming here that leads people to believe they can't debate either - which has been said a few times in this thread.

If I disagree, someone else takes it personal and flames me, if I reply to that, even if it's just to say that I wasn't meaning it as a personal attack, that is another post off topic. Then five people run in to say "stop taking the discussion off topic" and then a Dominar comes in and RIA's the thread because the whole thing went to crap.

If the original person had just thought about the true meaning in the words, rather than getting offended and beginning the downward spiral, there'd be no problem.

I also feel the need to point out that you're messing up my debate thread with debate - it's just not cool man.

Perhaps I've been away too long, but I have only gone through every open thread in the top forum, so I can't comment on why threads have been closed for a little bit of nothing.

It seems to depend on the decision of the Dominar involved, but I know that I do spend some time deleting off-topic and such, rather than just closing the thread.

What seems to be missing in this point, is that threads can be edited and re-opened. I've done it many times, when someone has taken the time to send a polite request by private message.

Fix the old one or make a new one, both are easy enough to acheive.

As it happens, I have deleted many, many posts along the lines you state, because they have nothing to do with the thread, so it does get sorted out in the end.

I don't understand the final point you've raised- what am I messing with, beyond making my own point on how the debates are formed and managed on this forum?

Well I took that last bit as Humor Stabb ;)

The ironic, don't debate in my debate thread :D

Well that is what a forum post is all about.. Expressing your thoughts and how you feel about a particular topic. I haven't posted many of my opinions because at least 90% of the time there are alot of different theories and views so it makes it a little difficult...I don't like to repeat other replies.
However it's still important to contribute. Some people get on the deffense a little too quick, while others are maybe hunting for that fight out of boredom.

Debate is healthy. Debate is good. Debate should be used to not only express your own opinion but open your mind to the opinions of others.

If debate is not conducted in a healthy way, it becomes a flame-war or insult fest.

True debates should never include personal attacks.

I think that is where the line is crossed and the thread should be closed. If a "debate" has degraded to an insult-fest.

Perhaps the easiest policy is to warn the first "flame" post that it won't be tolerated, delete the next post then close the thread completely.

IMO, the rules leave too much open to the individual dominar's feelings on what is appropriate and what is not, resulting in many decent threads being closed without giving them a chance to grow into anything.

Good thread Nyx, great subject. Hopefully the opinions expressed here can be used to further enhance the forums.

Debating is a great way to learn about others as well, and it can be fun. Some go a overboard and feel they need to get in arguments so people will listen.

I have seen a great many non offensive post deleted, for what reason I have no idea. Many times the excuse given is that it would be more fitting in someones journal but the point of putting it on the forum is then negated because the whole reason for putting it there is to open it up to the rave at large and not just those who visit ones profile

I agree with both birra and cadamia here, there have been many threads that were active and generally polite that were closed with little or no reason, and the few times I did ask the dominar that did it I was given rather abrupt I did it because I have the right kind of answers (not exact wording, but that attitude),
I won't name the dominars who did it, but there are more than one

My only question is:
If we want to start a debate thread on say, "The Possibility of Eternal Love" or "Outsourcing America" or "The Patriot Act" where would we put it?

Technically, these threads should go in the sandbox, but now you're suggesting we post them elsewhere?

actually the ousourcing and patriot act ideas would rank under political, and then you put them on a different site...heheh
but if the question of eternal love is geared towards a vampire lifestyle or the idea of soul mates through reincarnation, then that might be valid for a vampire related topic, otherwise, sandbox

Ahh, finally! People being reasonable! It was the lack of this that made me leave the General Discussions for so long. Debating is one of the greatest joys I have in life. It can expand the minds of both the people involved, and those who just like to sit back and watch. Debating forces you to examine yourself to discover what exactly makes you feel a certain way about a topic.

People always say, "Why bother, you're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours," and that may be true, but it's definitely possible to make you see it in a different way. You might disagree with the other side, but at least you'll understand it a bit better. This is the true value of debate and discussion.

And people should keep in mind that this is a forum. Definition: A public meeting place for open discussion. That is the whole idea. Everyone should be allowed to state their opinion, even if it means they are going to publicly disagree with your deepest held beliefs, your dearest hopes, and your whole way of life. We're not Nazis. We're allowed to think what we want.

So long as we are rationally debating the topic, rather than flinging insults at the people stating them, there shouldn't be a problem. I think we've all agreed on that. But the real problem is that there are people who will take everything personally and try to drive away all dissenters. It happened to me when I first arrived. I contradicted someone's post and they lashed out at me. First in a PM in which they described me as childish, idiotic, and fundamentally incapable of understanding them or their glorious wisdom, before blocking me, then, in the thread they accusing me of not knowing what I was talking about and without refuting my argument carrying on.

This is not uncommon. In fact it happens constantly in one thread or another. It's hard not to respond to baiting like that. It's infuriating. You have no choice but to either leave or descend to their level. I think it needs to be made more clear to members, new or old that this is not something to be tolerated. That there is something they can do about it.

It's not just the fear of being flamed within the debate people are worried about. It's being flamed via the mailbox, getting profile bombed, being snubbed in every other thread they participate in with the people involved . . . I honestly think there needs to be a section just for people who really want to be involved in an intellectual debate. Maybe not now, but it's something to think about in the future, when all this silliness becomes unbearable.

now that...was intelligently put...bravo
There is another forum i'm on, very political, so things get very heated very quickly, but even there if I am going to refute something I either say that I am doing it from MY OWN feelings, or else I try to add some links to the evidence i am presenting, I know I don't always do that here, but I try to

Daermon -
Ben Frankin is one of my favorite idols/mentors. He figured out how to debate without getting the other party up in arms. He shared two of his secrets in his autobiography.

The first was: Always, Always, Always, give your opponent a chance to save face. Never trap him in a corner, never make him feel threatened, never make him feel like he is being called a liar, or make him feel like he is wrong.

Second, put your side a little more gently, don't state your ideas or your point as absolute fact. Try to start out with "It is my understanding that...." or "I believe that..." or "I seem to remember that...."

I started using those two tenchiques to the best of my ability whenever I can. Every time I get into trouble in a debate, I realize that I messed up with one of his two rules above. ;)

*gotta love benny-boy*
*sigh*

hehe great ideas from a great thinker, hehe but I like being a viscious bastard sometimes..hehe it's a talent

I think the forum rules for posting and starting threads take into account humanoid nature, but they do not reflect the need to change that nature.

I only looked at the forum posting rules once, and ffrom what I remember they do need to be revamped. For one I within the past couple of days really wanted out again, to leave, not because my color Goth thread was completely shut down without even a mention that it was completely erased, or that ity wasn't RIA'd or, well it just disappeared immediately. That doesn't bother me at all, I did mention the color of a particular endocrine fluid that get pumped around the body, and that was one of the rules to not to mention that. So, I was not angered.

What really infuriated me was twice my posting on the special abilities topic by CLIX was erased. Vampires have a tremendous fighting ability and I wanted to teach the secrets of how I have defended myself over the years, and in posting how to defend yourself, and demystifying it, I know some people must have thought, like who the hell does he think he is?

Yes taking in to account human nature that we fear other people's ability, is one thing, but protecting people's momentary security by erasing a post where it teaches you how not to be pummelled, if it is erased you get pummelled in the long run.

The whole lesson from the dude with the cross was no one could accept their savior, and this was their sin he had to die for, and this cross bearer, looked back at the world and said, hmmm, so that is human nature, that people cannot accept that someone cares more than them, and when bad is encouraged and good to be punished, this dude with the cross put down his cross and said human nature cannot change.

I think human nature can change, and the forum rules of posting should reflect the possibility to allow for humanoid nature change. Should we erase posts that bring other people power, but can't afford to take the power because in the exchange of power they feel less?

Should the thought police step in and erase truths of special abilities as in the case here? Or should humanoids face their fear and recognize that somewhere someoine out there knows more than them about something. We must face our fear to change ourselves, to change our nature, and protecting people from antiquated human nature flaws does more harm in the end.

I teach merely to learn, I like to be proven wrong, I know I am screwed up by it, but I have always desired to be told by the oppostie sex how truly wrong I am. I know that when I am proven wrong I step into a new world, and I have changed. If we are right, then we do not change.

Life is not about being right, life is about learning what is right, and the whole process of changing your nature is dependant upon admitting that we are not these strong beings that we think we are.

I want to grow tell me just how wrong I am.

VAMPARIAH


once again i think you brought up a good point.......like you do in alot of the threads ive read......... i think it was because of nyx and this thread i was actualling feeling better about posting in the general forum again and i have...... i even opend my first thread ever thinking that it would be shut down but it has actually done very well.......anytime you have a debate you need to hear all side or we cant learn new things or be blessed with seeing how everyone else views things......i belive in nature its how we learn.........and how we decide for ourselves on what we want to belive and dont want to........its just my opinion though.......

agreed, personally i am very hard to insult and with that will listen to all views more so those that are different.......i set out to offend no one and expect the same in return ok so i am knew here, but i have been around a bit. I speak my mind always.....the only thing i watch is linguistical changes cause of different countries. i luv a good open friendly debate!!! amounggst friends after all thats why we are here, isn't it?

When coming to The Forum seeing the threads that are posted makes me shy away from posting myself.

I do like to debate if there is a topic I can relate or have an opinion on. But on the other hand how I have seen how some threads go, I tend to second guess myself, if my opinion would be laughed at.

That's why I like these kind of threads that can open the proverbial door for others like myself. (if any can relate to what I am speaking of =) )

All the other posts I have read here on this topic have very valid points and could be used as a possible learning tool for those that join to have as a guide. (Basically more in depth understanding and such that has been placed here).

Just my opinion... =)

I love reading all of the debates, and discussions, but for fear of looking stupid, I am reluctant to post my thoughts on them, and that is the feeling that I see with all of the newer members too. Not being sure what to say is one of the toughest things to do on these forum posts, hense why the sandbox is so popular

Not everyone has had a gun pointed at their head for more than a decade to find the truth, and then drowned truth serum. You know, everyone has their heroin, I know that, we all have something that makes us relate to all of us, some may not have found it, but I think this place the Rave is a disturbed Wasp nest, and we all understand the buzz. Some may not know how to phrase what they are feeling, but it comes in time if you try.

Only losers fear losing. I remember my first college speaking class, I didn't know what the hell to do, but I prepared, and relatively in my first speech I did better than the rest and it gave me some courage to be able to pulpit.

People in NYC don't even like talking on trains. I talk. I talk to open people up to make them feel alright. I smile with my broken grill and my bad clothes and sloppy hair, I am not going to pretend I have it going on, people I think stay silent because they have secrets of some kind. That is why I always tell the truth to everybody. I even told a gym class once I hit my mother the day before because she threw a bucket of water on my bed to wake me up, and then she slipped and fell on her puddle. One of the girls in the class ran out. They couldn't believe I could do that. I did fear reprocussion of telling the truth to a class, but never anything I did wrong was used against me, the students respected me because I was truthful, and usually the things they held against me were contrived.

I figure in life, if expressing yourself is a lost art, and they have to make up stories to get rid of you, you might as well take a chance and teach something else than pushups.

You don't know how many times people who are gagged by what they feel post something they think is unintelligable, and I thank the moderators for being ablke to relate to posts with symbols or periods, or whatever... it affects me on another level and I feel all your pain, especially the pains that cannot be admitted.

Fortunately on the internet we have the confessional, and I burden you all with me problems so I don't feel the pain. Life is devisive when all old friends move away, and bartenders do not even come to get you a drink after the slop you told them about the last time. They are fascinated and yet horrified, but if you cannot express yourself with the internet confessional here, where are you going to do it.

This site has saved my life, every damned one of you, and I encourage you to speak your mind....

it is a vault of life experience and needs to be shared so you can grow beyond what torments you.

Well after looking at the lenght of the previous responses Mine looks a bit weak............I agree is all and debate is good and people shouldnt take it personally

well we all are scaredy cats, even me. But I learned that the reason why I had a tough time taking advice was because I was insecure. As soon as I realized I was in fear, then I changed my behavior.

It takes a long time to see through ya self, but we have to be big and take it on the chin sometimes, even if we have glass jaws.

Pretending to be emotionally balanced is part of the game. Yeah I get dunked on, and it gets to me, but you can't show fear, there is a little act in life, and we have to put our best face forward.

People get paranoid and this is why they like animals. Animals do not judge, but they think people know what you are feeling. Once you realise that everyone is oblivious to your state of mind, you can act like nothing is wrong, and just get by.

But you do have to get it off your chest sometime, and that is why we are here, this is not a forum, this is a support group.

Well I think people should not take everything so serious. Why open a thread if you dont want people debating on it? If you dont voice ya opionions then how do you keep the thread opened? Anyway that just how I feel.

This thread is a great topic to discuss.

LuckyOne had once stated something in a thread about love being found in a bite. She stated how she felt like we became united as one when we experienced our first time together. Someone else responded to another thing she said that related to the topic and they said someone to her as if to brush her off because she stated something they felt sounded stupid. She was a little bothered because she said he made her feel stupid but I told her to remember that everyone is entitled to the right to debate your response. She agreed.

I think debating can be very healthy for our minds. It makes us think when at times we thought we had no thought for it. I of course love a good debate. It can be a little bothersome sometimes when you feel strongly about something that someone else thinks is stupid, I know. But I feel like we shouldn't aiways take ourselves so seriously. I value everyone's opinion...no matter what it is. I respect those who speak up more than the wimps.lol

People have to understand that everyone has an opinion and just because it differs from your own, it isn't an attack or a put down. These threads are to explore different topics with intelligent conversation. If you don't like someone's comment, it is your choice to ignore it or comment on it. As i can see here, this idea is supported by several staff members that i'm sure are tired of being the teaching in the classroom and hearing..."Did you see what he said to me?"

I believe that there are many people willing to debate just not enough that listen. Communicating does not mean just waiting for your turn to speak. Sometimes we get so busy just thinking up what other clever thing we can say next that we are not comprehending what is being said to them and maybe thats where bashing or misunderstandings begin. This again is just my point of view. Everybody, especially here in VR knows something...so when we are so busy trying to prove our point is the only one we are learning nothing. I try to keep an open mind and I listen and I read and some people are great debaters! They have the skill to do that but to communicate at any level is even a greater skill. I know some people make type-o's I myself am one of those people and perhaps my vocabulary isn't as large as others non the less I may have something just as important that I would like to share. I had to just throw that out there...

Oh, I suddenly feel the need to point out that sometimes people do say some pretty stupid sh*t (can I say shit here?)

Anyway, that doesn't mean I think anyone in this thread said something stupid, but sometimes that is all it boils down to. There have been some pretty stupid threads (my personal fave, off the top of my head, was the one questioning the dental hygiene habits of Vampires). There are times you just have to say "Dude, you're a friggin moron".

That should not happen in every debate tho. If they have presented a well developed argument then hear them out, consider it, and then agree or annhiliate it with your own well developed argument.

debate is debate for truth is what is true for you at the time

in a life full of stages, the truth for an individual changes, we are all at different life stages, and so no one is going to agree with anyone, we have to expnad our minds to include the concept of other people's perceptions of existence because what is true for them might be true for us someday.

Truth is temporal.

lol nyx that was funny and i never saw the dental hygene of vampires thread.... but i think you are right some post have been a little far fetched .......and those are the ones i generally stay away from......

This thread has been automatically closed for length.