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Magickal Beginnings
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menerfecious
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01:24:47 Jan 17 2008
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I have often wondered how far back into mankinds history the roots of egyptian magicks, sumerian magicks and pagan magicks really go.

I now believe that it probably goes way back to when mankind were still living in caves.

Neolithic cave drawings have shown ritualistic ceremonies, but these drawings do not really help us to identify what kind of ceremony, be it a mating ritual, or a ceremony of some magickal or religious reasoning.

Being able to understand neolithic man has always been very difficult to modern man as we tend to use our primitive brains.

However, a vast amount of us have some belief in very similar based ideals.

I wonder what other people think about the possibility of magick going as far back as neolithic man.

Obviously as there is no real evidence, this is purely a hyperthetical discussion.

I would love to hear all of your views.

Mener




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MistressBloodDiamonds
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01:28:33 Jan 17 2008
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I agree, I believe that it has its root as far back as the birth of humanity its self. From the time when we were naked apes cold in caves and gathered for warmth and started to chant to keep a rythem.



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02:01:59 Jan 17 2008
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Well bro to me would it not be close to the rituals that the Native American Indian uses and other cultures worldwide.

Basing this on their needs such as fertility and a good harvest and hunt.

Also, rituals of becoming a man,hunter, warrior or even leader.

Also, there would be ceremonies for mating or pairing and healing ceremonies.

Just a thought and they would call upon whatever respective Gods that they knew at the time or elements to aid them in their undertakings as we do.

Just a thought.



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Law
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02:16:17 Jan 17 2008
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Could be, yes, a fact. We do not really know. But I would think so truly. The roots can be way back.



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Daedal
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02:18:13 Jan 17 2008
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I too believe that magick dates as far back as humankind. Of course, as stated before, there is no way to prove it, but it seems logical to me.



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LadyPatricia
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02:19:50 Jan 17 2008
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I believe that 'magic' in some form may have been around before human kind even existed.



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Wolfspirits
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02:29:16 Jan 17 2008
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actually, what ...assasin69 said is true. they would you magjik for harvesting, fertility and so forth - deffinately!



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DarkAngelDevina
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03:14:41 Jan 17 2008
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I feel as most everyone here has stated that magic has existed since the beginning of time itself. And that it has always been in the mix of all religions and practices there of.


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NyteStalker
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04:26:22 Jan 17 2008
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i think that magik may have actually started when man started to move out of the caves and into the huts. i believe that is when magik actually started happening but as you said there really is no proof so this is just speculation.



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RavenEyes
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04:40:55 Jan 17 2008
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I think we may have had a basic knowing of energy and such when mankind was in its earliest ages, but I don't think it really became a religious or ceremonial way until later, when we had evolved more and were able to think past just our primitive instincts.



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Wiccanpothead42024
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04:44:57 Jan 17 2008
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Ever since mankind was able to look around and notice certain things I believe we realized a greater power was at work.

Whether man was able to understand this power and use it to their advantage is unsure, but magick has always been there to be used.



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ShaolinWicca
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04:57:40 Jan 17 2008
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I'm sure magic is even older than the Earth.



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angelicallyvampiric
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12:51:23 Jan 17 2008
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well i was raised druid(pagan), i actually started my path at 12yrs of age , they figured i would comprehend things then and i did so.



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hawntedandforsaken
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13:30:10 Jan 17 2008
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as other members postted i believe that magic has been around for quite some time before time even



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mysticwinds
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14:02:53 Jan 17 2008
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magic most likely did start at the beginning of mankind...finding roots of plants to cure sickness as the shamans did. Some things just remain a mystery. Cavemen invented fire....to me that is magicial.



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alixaryon
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14:40:45 Jan 17 2008
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Well, I am sure that a form of magic existed at such a early point such as the one you are mentioning menerfecious, but I am not sure about the complexity of the magic exibited, since magic always deals with some sort of information(more complex the information, more stronger the magical outcome), and since the human brain was'nt able to process some sort of complex thinking at that early point of human existence thanks to its young stage of development, I believe that the complexity of the magic exibited was considerably lessend as well.

I believe the early magic exibited by the early human was'nt going further than trowing the stone, or breaking the stick ritual.



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RazielTheReaver
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14:45:59 Jan 17 2008
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Well I will leave u guys with this matter. I dont want to talk about stuff I dont know. Now I can give u my thought about it but u would just think what the heck do i mean. lol



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Oceanne
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14:48:24 Jan 17 2008
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Thats what animal figurines are about..magic.Or so it is alledged.So yes,Men,it goes pretty far back.Nice topic btw.
Animal figurines are abundant in Near Eastern sites from the 9-3rd millennium BC. From the Levant to Iran.



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RaineVampire
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16:08:07 Jan 17 2008
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it's absolutely possible, in my opinion, that the origin of magick goes back to pre-history, when they have to heal using just herbs and where their contact with mother earth was very close...



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menerfecious
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21:54:25 Jan 17 2008
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Thanks everyone, there has been a lot of feedback on this topic.



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Khosmhyn
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22:24:43 Jan 17 2008
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It is not proper to speak about magick, in the ritual way of speaking, far back in the Neolithic. There was more shamanic habits than a system of magick. Anyway everything that first was seen as unable to control, after a time, become a purpose or a goal of the magickal path. So, first were the shamanic habits and after that these "habits" started to become ritualized.



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drak47
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05:39:42 Jan 18 2008
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I also believe that magick dates as far back as humankind. Of course, as stated before, there is no way to prove it, but it seems logical to me.



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Oceanne
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19:26:54 Jan 18 2008
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http://www.crystalinks.com/ancient.html



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BLOODLIFE
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19:33:41 Jan 18 2008
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I wonder if when 'man' discovered fire it was considered magic!!!!



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Oceanne
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19:43:37 Jan 18 2008
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Most likely.I think they thought anything they didnt literally do themselves,they thought was magic.I still think it goes on today.In a sense.



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BLOODLIFE
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19:47:13 Jan 18 2008
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I totally agree with you...........

I still remember my great granma being amazed by aeroplanes.

That could be the difference between magical and magic..lol



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Oceanne
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19:50:13 Jan 18 2008
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Right..and could you imagine if they were to have seen a teli? Or a cell phone? StarTrek time.



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BLOODLIFE
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20:17:55 Jan 18 2008
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so really it seems to be not just the spiritual will to do magic but also our own perception of what we think magic is...

come to think of it, is magic spiritual?!!!!



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RAAGIOSL
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20:23:21 Jan 18 2008
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Why don't we ask Stanley Kubrick, sorry couldn't help myself. Who knows what they really did all we have are those hiroglyphics. Maybe it was magical that they had a artist in the group.



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RainbowPrincess
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01:43:03 Jan 19 2008
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I don't think it goes quite that far back, but maybe somewhere close to it.



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CelestiaNocturne
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01:47:46 Jan 19 2008
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Without hardcore proof, anything is possible! Im sure the first religions were stories that early man told to explain things like season change, sunrise/set, eclipses, etc, and with the nomadic lifestyle the stories got spread around to other people and places. But thats what i think anyway lol.



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Polishsiren
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03:07:21 Jan 19 2008
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The first reported evidence of magic dates the ancient art back to 2600 BC, as hieroglyphics were discovered in an egyptian tomb, thought to be depicting cups and balls, the famous magic trick. However, numerous scholars have disputed this claim, stating that this may have just been a game.

Later in history, magic was often confused with religion and some ancient magicians used magic to fool people into changing their religious beliefs. Some people even say that Jesus Christ himself was an ancient magician.

Please include links to copied infrmation.

STABB



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Oceanne
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05:55:54 Jan 19 2008
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here you go...

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0162-2870(198622)37%3C6%3ATROTCM%3E2.0.CO%3B2-0

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/coffintext.htm

http://www.magiczoom.com/history-of-magic.htm?sid=&lang_site=en



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Oceanne
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06:01:41 Jan 19 2008
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Oh,almost forgot.The Egyptians used to put spells in their tombs too.



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TravelingEnigma
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06:02:53 Jan 19 2008
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i think as far back as there was man we have had our rituals and that if you look hard enough we were probly trying to invoke someknd of magic



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Infernalmage
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06:05:29 Jan 19 2008
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Polis,

Our minds do indeed trick us. But i would rather be tricked by my mind, then 2000 years of nasty perverted narrow minded freaks attempting to tell me 1 man and only one man is the son of god, that he came back from the dead in his body, in that same era, within a few days. That not buying their book, or going to their meetings, means im going to burn in a lake of hellfire that i didnt create for myself already....

I chose the voice in my head over the voices of idiot men and their imaginary friends. I have my own thank you.



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NocturnalGoddess
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06:20:15 Jan 19 2008
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I am inclined to agree with Infernalmage, as my beliefs are rooted in the magicks far before 33 A.D. Magick itself is older than man's short reign on this Earth.



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Infernalmage
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The things that i deal and work with, originate from the time of the Sumerians, Assyrians, Babylonians in the fertile crescent region of the world. Where the cultures spread off, then to their Asiatic cousins. So you are looking at about 4000 bce, (before the common era {for those diehard zionics around here}) to the present era. which equates to about 6000 years of history. from who did what to the first cave man what lit the first fire.



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BLOODLIFE
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Given all that -- you could even argue that the 'big bang' was magical.



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Namir
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16:19:13 Jan 19 2008
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Ah...Magick has always been and will always be. And the first Magick to be practiced was most likey a Shamanistic form. And as Villages and Communities developed they began to become more complexed and centralized on each individual Society. Thats when we begin to see the different Religions begin to develope. But the complexity of Magick prefromed in the begining is hard to determine. Though I would believe they were quite complex, as Stonehenge and other Monolithic Structures around the world would suggest.



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Oceanne
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Rock art, the first permanent form of visual communication known to man, the same art which led to the invention of writing, goes back almost to the origins of mankind. In fact, in Tanzania, as in Australia, there are rock paintings which it would appear go back 40,000 years and more (Anati, 1989).

Since most of the works of rock art were, or were related to, initiation rites, or were part of religious practice and its context, the idea that these works should be associated with the use of hallucinogenic vegetals (as has already been put forward for some specific cases on the basis of ethnographic and ethnobotanical data) comes as no surprise.

This use, where it arises, is historically associated with controlled rituals involving social groups of varying dimensions. It is perhaps not a chance occurrence that the areas where examples of rock art are to be found are also the areas where the most famous examples are to be found in terms of imagination, mythological significance and polychromy.

In California, the rock art of the regions inhabited by the Chumash and Yokut, a polychromic manner of painting, particularly evident during the stylistic phase known as the Santa Barbara Painted Style' has been associated with the toloache cult centered around Jimsonweed (Compbell, 1965:63-64; Wellmann, 1978 and 1981).

Apparently, the first examples of Chumash rock art date back to 5,000 years ago (Hyder & Oliver, 1983). The impressive Pecos River paintings in Texas have also been associated with the mescal' cult (Sophora secundiflora, hallucinogenic beans of which were used during rites of initiation on the part of the Indian tribes of the region) (Howard, 1957).

Furst (1986) affirms that the mescal cult goes back 10,000 years, which is to say back to the Paleo-Indian Hunters Period at the end of the Pleistocene period.

Archeological excavations carried out in the areas where paintings are to be found reveal mescal seeds which go back to 8,000 B.C, when Carbon-14 dated. Peyote (Lophophora williamsii) that contains mescaline has also been found during some of these excavations (Campbell, 1958)

An interesting and quite explicit use of cohoba, a hallucinogenic snuff taken from the Anadenanthera peregrina tree has been documented among the peoples of the Borbon Caves art in the Dominican Republic (Pagan Perdomo, 1978).

This art is probably an example of the Late Antillian Culture of the Tainos and goes back to a period shortly before the arrival of the Spaniards. In this painting, the subject of inhalation of cohoba, by means of cane pipes, is repeatedly represented (Franch, 1982).

Copied from..
http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mus01.htm



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Oceanne
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18:08:17 Jan 19 2008
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The Hindu practice Vedas is pretty old also.I think they have dated that back at least as far as 500 600 BC.
I will find something on that for you.



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Oceanne
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18:10:38 Jan 19 2008
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http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ANCINDIA/VEDAS.HTM

Looks as though I was slightly off on my numbers..my apologies.



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chivvareborn
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18:14:22 Jan 19 2008
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i think it could very well go that far back... most knowledge was passed through speech so there was no written record so there is no telling how much we have actually lost



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STABB666
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18:29:03 Jan 19 2008
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Oceanne,

I find your interest in the rock art side of this topic intriguing.

I am surprised to find that has been little mention of Egypt here. There are also rock paintings around there, depicting animals which thrive in lush green surroundings, such as gazelles. These are located at an oasis in the middle of the Sahara desert, spanning the border of the Egypt and Libya, indicating that a paleolithic culture existed prior to the dynasties of the Nile.

Egypt, being the 'mother of magic', has a mysterious history, with the pyramid construction being the most obvious conundrum to solve. The pantheon of Gods is extensive, and there is the aspect of the Kings being personifications of those Gods.

Aside from that, there is the Biblical aspect of the Old Testament 'magics', which were performed in and against the land of ancient Egypt, with the plagues and wars.

Additionally, some vampire groups have developed an extensive mythos, utilising a system of energy work and ritualistic practice which beckons to those ancient times.



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Oceanne
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18:54:26 Jan 19 2008
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Thank you StABB666.It truely is a very interesting subject.Like you,I am a little suprised Egypt hasnt been discussed more,considering it has been mentioned above and are pretty well established as one of the forerunners in magical history.
As for the petroglyphs.They amaze me.Even as primitive as we find them to be,I have always believed they depicted a type of hunting magic and such.Also,not to forget one of the most magical peoples of all,the Aboriginies of Australia.



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Oceanne
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20:26:15 Jan 19 2008
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The Didjeridoo itself is one of the oldest magical tools.Its frequencies where used to bring about very specific states of mind and such.That ,in my mind is quite magical.



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menerfecious
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20:42:50 Jan 19 2008
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Polishsiren

Thanks for posting those very interesting links and information. I think, without a doubt, that the is definately evidence to suggest that neolithic cave dwelling humans could very well have performed magicks.

Mener



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menerfecious
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20:46:12 Jan 19 2008
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Stabb

Thanks for the information you have posted in regards to the egyptian magicks. I myself am very interested in the ancient egyptians and agree that there is a lot of evidence to show that they used magicks.

Thanks for fixing some of the links too.

Mener



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princesskayd1
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I think it does go way back. There are drawing you find in old caves of a lot of things that aren't even believed to be real.... legends that are told for generations that they think to be false and then suddenly find out that it's true. I see no reason why them having magic could nto be true either. After all there is still a lot that modern man does not know.



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KioshisKeeper
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10:01:17 Jan 20 2008
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That is so true Princess. I don't think anyone will ever know for sure. the battle will just keeping going around and around and the one with the most money or biggest mouth will win. :-)



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Oceanne
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10:54:04 Jan 20 2008
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Biggest mouth? I dont know aboutt hat KK.Seems to be alot of evidence out there showing that there were many ancient cultures that had magic in their lives..So maybe its a matter of the one with the sharpest eye and an open mind.It is more likely the perception of it that has changed more than anything.The Egytian snake incantations are a good example of their magic.
Anyway,here is more on the subject..

5,000 Years of Herbal Healing

In 1991, on a glacier in the Italian Alps that had melted back to an unusual extent, hikers stumbled on a dead body. It turned out to be the naturally mummified body of a prehistoric man who had frozen to death some 5,300 years before and whose remains were preserved in the ice.

Dubbed the Iceman, he's been studied by Italian anthropologists ever since. He wore straw-lined leather shoes, leather clothing, a thick coat made from woven grass, and a bearskin cap. He carried a wooden bow, a leather quiver filled with stone-tipped arrows, a flint-bladed knife, a wood-handled ax with a copper blade, and a food pouch that still contained dried deer meat and a prune.

The Iceman's pouch also contained two mysterious corklike lumps about the size of walnuts that were pierced through and strung together on a leather thong, indicating that they were of value. The lumps turned out to be bracket fungus (Piptoporus betulinus), one of many mushrooms that grow in shelflike plates on tree trunks.

This species of fungus contains agaric acid, a potent laxative, and an oily resin that is toxic to some bacteria and intestinal parasites.

The scientists studying the Iceman had no idea why he would have carried bracket fungus until, in 1998, a painstaking autopsy of his digestive tract turned up the eggs of an intestinal parasite (Trichuris trichiura) in his rectum.

It now appears that the Iceman knew he carried the parasite, which causes abdominal pain, and was using bits of bracket fungus to treat his condition. Given its laxative and antiparasitic action, the fungus probably provided some benefit.

This discovery ranks as the world's oldest documented example of the practice of medicine, and it suggests that prehistoric humanity was more medically sophisticated than previously believed. After all, the Iceman or someone else had diagnosed his malady correctly and had recommended a reasonably appropriate treatment - an herbal treatment - around 3300 b.c.

Animal Attractions

Just what is a healing herb? The word herb comes from the Latin for "grass." Technically, herbs are plants that wither each autumn, plants other than shrubs or trees. But many woody perennials are used in herbal healing, such as slippery elm, tea tree, and white willow. To an herbalist, the phrase "healing herbs" applies to every plant with medicinal value.

Prehistoric sites in Iraq show that the Neanderthals used yarrow, marshmallow, and other herbs some 60,000 years ago. What attracted them to these plants?

Animals played a key role. Prehistoric humans were keen observers of the world around them. No doubt our ancestors noticed that when animals appeared ill, they sometimes ate plants that they ordinarily ignored. Humans sampled these plants, in many cases noticing curious effects - wakefulness, sleepiness, laxative action, increased urination, and so on. The herbs that caused these effects were incorporated into prehistoric shamanism, and later into medicine.

Animal-inspired herbalism has continued into modern times. The controversial herbal cancer therapy marketed by Harry Hoxsey was reportedly inspired by a cancer-stricken horse who ate unusual herbs (more on this later).

Aromatic Magic

Early humans were also attracted to healing herbs' aromas. They rubbed strong-smelling herbs on their bodies to repel insects and to hide their human scent from animals that they feared or hunted. They also adorned themselves with sweet-smelling herbs to please their mates.

Fragrant herbs evolved into the first perfumes and embalming mixtures. Demand for them spurred ancient trade. During the Middle Ages, when Europeans believed that bathing was unhealthy and farm animals often shared human living quarters, homemakers spread aromatic "strewing herbs" to freshen the air. Herbalists still prepare scent baskets (potpourris) today, and the perfume industry still creates most of its fragrances from herbal essences.

But foul odors, not fragrant ones, were key to the development of herbal healing. Early humans used plants such as rosemary, thyme, dill, and virtually all of today's culinary spices to mask the stench of rotting meats. Today, we use culinary herbs and spices only as flavor enhancers, but to prehistoric humanity, flavor enhancement was incidental to food preservation.

Prehistoric humanity had no refrigeration, and meats spoiled quickly. Spoilage destroyed precious reserves, and early humans learned the hard way that eating rotten meats caused illness and sometimes death. No doubt some prehistoric homemaker happened to lay some rotting meat on a bed of wild mint, sage, basil, or some other aromatic herb, hoping the herb's fragrance would mask the meat's malodorousness. It did, and as a bonus, the meat didn't spoil as quickly.

Our ancestors began wrapping meats in aromatic herbs to preserve them, which led to other astonishing discoveries. Those who ate preservative herbs along with meats suffered less illness. As an added benefit, the meats tasted better.

Surely, our ancestors must have decided, aromatic herbs were magic. As time passed and magic was incorporated into religion, ancient civilizations came to view aromatic herbs as gifts from the gods. This is why many herbs figure prominently in ancient myths and religions.

Thanks to modern science, we know that the oils that give aromatic herbs their fragrance and flavor contain antimicrobial compounds that kill many food-spoiling, disease-causing microorganisms. In fact, rosemary and sage have food-preservative action comparable to that of the commercial preservatives BHA and BHT.
info copped from:http://www.enotalone.com/article/9469.html





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purplehaze76
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I believe it started with the cave men. They may not have totally understood what they were doing, but I think if the drawings they made were studied more u would see signs of magic



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Oceanne
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It most likely happened thousands of years ago, when some medicine men found that by directing the power of the mind en mass, they found they got good results in hunting. Now whether this power affected the animal or the hunters didnt really matter.Bottom line, it produced results, and they called this power or Magic.
Just speculation.



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Oceanne
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ok one more thing ..

Neolithic hunter peoples considered red to be the most important color endowed with life-giving powers and thus placed red ochre into graves of their deceased. This explains funds of skeletons embedded in up to 10 kg of red powdered ochre. Neolithic cave painters ascribed magic powers to the color red. The word "magic" ("Zauber" in German) translates to "taufr" in Old Norse and is related to the Anglo-Saxon "teafor" meaning "red ochre". It can be stipulated that they painted animals in red ochre or iron oxide to conjure their fertility.

Protective powers of the color red against evil influence were common belief. Objects, animals and trees were covered in red paint, warriors painted their axes and spear-catapults red to endow the weapons with magic powers. Some of the Australian aborigines abide by this custom up to the present times. Neolithic hunters and germanic warriors used to paint their weapons and even themselves in blood of slain animals. Roman gladiators drank blood of their dying adversaries to take over their strength. In other cultures, the newly born were bathed in blood of particularly strong and good looking animals.Red painted amulettes or red gems, such as ruby or garnet, were used as charms against the "evil eye". Wearing a red ruby was supposed to bring about invincibility. Red bed-clothes were customary in Germany up to the Middle Ages as protection against the "red illnesses", such as fever, rashes or even miscarriages

Exerpt copped from: http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/color/reds2.html



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Kryptick
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It wouldn't surprise me if magic was dated as far back as when time first started...I mean who could really "invent" magic? It had to be there from the beginning.



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theunknown
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I totally agaree with you but I also think that cave man thought it was a magical thing when they discovered fire for the first time and the invention of the wheel so to speak I mean they could have known what they where doing who are we to say what knowledge they actually did have we only go by what we were taught not what really was so I think magic goes far beyong what we reaal know...



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menerfecious
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I am not asking who invented it, i a merely asking when mankind first started to use it.

I believe that before the earth was even habitable, magick was in existence.

Before the universe was created, magick existed, before time began, magick existed.

Magick itself is a raw force of creative energies. However, when mankind first encountered the forces of creation (other than the creation of life through intercourse) we can always call it magick.

To neolithic man, creating the fire that only ever emerged rom erupting volcanoes would have been both magickal and frightening, but once man learnt more about fire by testing and working with it, he became more confident of his skills. (i use the term he very loosely, there is no evidence to suggest the sex of the humanoid that first created fire for themselves).

Mener



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fyrechyld
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From the beginning of time



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menerfecious
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Considering the fact that mankind was not around at the beginning of time....how can you say that magick has been used by man since then?

No, I think you may mean since man first learnt to measure time...which would indeed be around the neolithic period.



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Kryptick
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I think the creation of the world was magic in itself, so, magic has always been around. As for when man realized it was there, it couldn't have taken that long.



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ChemicallyYours
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I hate to post something so short, but yes I agree with those that say that it has been around since the dawn of time. As long as there have been people on the earth, there have been theories of magick, and ideas of things that are beyond their realm.



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menerfecious
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But time was around from the very first second of the unvierse's creation. In comparison, the earth is much younger than the dawn of time.

Yes, magick has probably been around since the dawn of time, but after the earth's creation, when the dinosaurs ruled the earth....do you really think that magick was used here?

I think not.

Please do make sure you understand the question before you attempt to answer it.

The question is....how long ago do you think mankind first used any kind of magickal practise?



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BloodDrenchedRose
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People used to think fire was magic, end of post



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BloodMoonAngel
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03:50:04 Feb 11 2008
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I tend to agree actually



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menerfecious
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But what do you agree with Knightduchess?

Do you agree that man has used magick since the dawn of time when manking didn't even exist? Or simply learnt to harness and use it's powers when man was at an early age (like the neolithic period i suggested).

By the way, time is completely immaterial when it comes to magick. I believe that the raw forces of magick were there before the universe created itself, and I believe that magick will still be there long after the universe crashes in on itself.

Mener



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xKioshix
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22:19:07 Feb 14 2008
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lol basically since the dawn of time.. everytime humans evolved, or discovered things.. it was considered magical.



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menerfecious
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But again, we are seeming to misunderstand the question and somehow manage to pour time into the equasion. Time is immaterial.

At the "beginning of time" there was nothing, then the universe suddenly created itself. Long after that, mankind started to wander this earth, so how could man have been able to use any magicks if they did not even exist on the earth?



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xKioshix
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when human kind evolved.. I think that is when the belief in magic occurred... LOL we can debate this forever.. because the term magic wasn't coined until the development of the written language. Its hard to say exactly when and where it all started



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menerfecious
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The term magick may not have been coined until humankind invented writing, but there are indeed many cave paintings that date back to neolithic periods that depict what seem like magickal rituals. Hence the reason for the word magick being coined in the first place.



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VW39
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I believe that magick goes far back, but not to the beginning of humanity. Maybe a few thousand years after its start.



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menerfecious
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Thankyou for your honest opinion NocnaMora.

So would you say that the neolithic period (maybe a little later) would be around the right period of mankind's evolution for magickal usage?



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VW39
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Around that time, yes. Because I don't think when humanity first started out that it knew enough, and the inhabitants hadn't been around long enough to develope yet alone learn how to use magick.

I believe things like that take many many years to start up.



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menerfecious
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Thank you for your input, I truly appreciate what you are saying and agree whole heartedly with your opinions.

mener



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CrozzDeNook
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03:16:01 Feb 15 2008
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Hey...Paganism and Magik itself Goes WAY BACK...Dunno how long...Maybe someone along time ago figured something out that we...Really still don't know...but I believe that it is possible to see what it was like long ago throw research and well...other things...so Maybe they knew something we don't is all I'm saying.



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sweetblooded
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sometimes I believe magic was more powerful the farther back you go because it you think about it the whole of magic is spread out and forgot more then enbraced in today world.



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drak47
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I too believe that magick dates as far back as humankind.



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LumiyaOfTheSith
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Evidence of magic and some kind of animal god worship as far back as Cro Magnon man.



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menerfecious
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23:46:10 Feb 15 2008
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Do you really believe that cro magnon man had the understanding essential to use magick?



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Theshining1
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hum its over id like to read more...man will find out about himself more with life if life lets us.... i believe magic or the other word has been there for some time.. dont have any dates , one day all our eyes will be open that have the gifts that higher power has given us.. if any one believes that.

maybe one day some one will use all there brain and tell us all that we have been looking for.



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theunknown
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00:28:46 Feb 16 2008
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because you want all correctiness then i will give you 2 book and they explain everything for you by the time you get to the end of both book you will have your answer.---book 1 angels and demons.
--- book 2 davinci code.



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FoxxyCherryBlood
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00:35:10 Feb 16 2008
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I don't think cro magnon man had the understanding to use magic



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menerfecious
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01:13:37 Feb 16 2008
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the unknown, the problem with those books is that they are largely incomplete as they have lost all meaning during translation.



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Oceanne
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For our ancestors, magic, ritual, religion and indeed their everyday world, would all have been connected at a very deep level .Attepting to even try to differentiate them would not make any sense. The basic conclusion from what I understand,is that religion was being followed in Europe at least 30,000 years ago with Cro-Magnon man. It is believed possibly earlier with H. neanderthalensis and the Aurignacian culture of H. sapiens.Even more astounding, 62,000 years ago in Australia with Mungo Man.A big part of it being symathetic magic.


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daemona
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I believe that magick exists in everything around us. Therefore prehistoric man definately could have used magick. I believe he found more uses for natural things as we because there were no alternatives. There was no Bactine to put on a cut - so they used mud or honey.

Were we to suddenly find ourselves without all of science's medicine or electricity it would force us to be more attuned to our natural surroundings and we would look to magick again.



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Atonement
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09:50:11 Feb 17 2008
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I have wondered the same thing. But to argue (respectfully, of course) your comment on the cavemen and the drawing. They could have done rituals for just about anything with no magic behind them because of their lack of intellect. I mean, take for instance just about every football game in america. A man sneezes and his team makes a touchdown. Then you'll see him sneezing the rest of the game thinking it will help them win.



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Daeva
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I think the answer is we will never know. I mean I am sure that any form of magick was commonplace with certain members of tribes and such like Native Americans have their Medicine Man. Certain practices today might be looked upon as magick and then just a part of daily routine for certain ones.

It's when a society becomes extremely diverse that they question the nature of reality and what is fact and fiction. Philosophy gets put in the mix and other ideas come to play. Look at how many religious groups exist but we assume they were much more primitive in thought and action but I am sure like others have mentioned it would deal with fertility and nature for the most part.



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DamianDarkrose
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In most disscussions iv'e been in there allways seems to be someone who discounts these belifs and i am very happy to see that i have found a place that i can say this without critisizim...
The begining of magick starts in spirit,
the goddess has granted me with life and mind. I and all who beleave must know of the rede, and the law of three. i know it sounds pretty basic. but i like knowing i can say that without a slapin the face from the "others" = it is not up to me to cast judgment on others because i cant find a reson to pigionhole anyone



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Oceanne
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10:48:01 Feb 17 2008
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I dont..whatis the rede and the law of three?



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boneyardvixen
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12:04:42 Feb 17 2008
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The movie Clan of the Cave bear (the book was better) shows some interesting views of possible 'caveman' rituals and beliefs. If you haven't seen the movie, or read the book, you should. The series of books is awesome!



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GirlOfTheValley
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Magic does go back to the neolithic era. Archeologists have found that Neanderthals were indeed buried with their belongings and their bodies were fixed into a fetal position. In the museum I work at they replicated several burial sites of this species of hominids. Historians that work there agree that they may believed in magic and may have also performed a ritual to bury their dead based on the artifacts that were found around several neaderthal bodies. If they performed rituals then definately they believed in some religion and performed magic of some sort to bless their dead



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xXLEGIONXx
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I dont believe it had anything to do with religion.Everything was magic to them.The important things where food,land and babies.If anything the desire to have these things might have propagated rituals aim at keeping them plentiful.



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menerfecious
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Religions of any kind are just a way for mankind to express themselves in a magickal way. All religions have their own rituals and written words to follw. Personally, i follow no religion or set of rules when it comes to belief. I believe in myself and that is all that matters.

Another thing about religion is the fact that no matter how much they will deny it, religion is nothing more than a way into your deeper inner self.

Mener



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Theshining1
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00:41:16 Feb 18 2008
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so how easy is it to teach some one majic kmenerfecious



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demonicflipper
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i agree with you.



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theunknown
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00:53:53 Feb 18 2008
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it is never easy in teaching someone until the are devoted to learning it is a long process in teaching ppl magick it is not an over night thing.and as far as the comment directed to me above is concern i was talking about the text you read now i was referring to the original text on both books .



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Theshining1
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01:00:09 Feb 18 2008
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menerfecious says those books are largley incomeplete.. any answers to that ..



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Theshining1
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01:04:35 Feb 18 2008
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menerfecious how do you no that the books theinknown is talking about is incomplete.. i dont no and im will to learn the trade



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xBloodxSoakedxLipsx
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I only know of 400 years of magick.

But i have been a Wiccan and a vampire for 400 years.

I know it goes as far back as humans, and further.

Depending on your religous veiws, whatever created everything, created magick.

Energy is everything.

In a way, everything is related to everything.

No one just got up one day, and made magick.

It has always been here.

Some are just born knowing, others have to learn it.

Thats just my insite.

(NO flaming me, please!
Thats just disrespectful!)

~*~Electra~*~



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VR System
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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