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What Is The Source Of All Vampires?
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xLoganx
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10:53:35 Aug 27 2008
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Since There Are Many Legends And Lore From So Many Different Continents As Well as Some From The Same, But They Are Vastly Different In Many Ways With Few Diviating From The Drinking Of Blood.

With All These Cultures Believing In Vampires, Where Do You Think They All Started From?

Or Do You Think It Was A Random Event?




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xLoganx
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11:29:42 Aug 27 2008
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I Dont Think It Covers allicantzaros. Found In Ancient Greece,
They Believed You Only Had To Be Born On Christmas, But I Do Think It Covers A lot Of Other Culture's Who Could Not Explain certain Things



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TumorNamedMarla
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11:40:17 Aug 27 2008
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I was looking for the Origins of the "Vampire" in general...to show where the term and history of the word came from.That way people would understand more about the actual history of it.



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Whispersinthewind
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11:45:46 Aug 27 2008
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As well, my advice would be to look for actual historic prove rather than any sort of religious context such as the Kain vs Lilith texts.



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Daeva
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12:07:52 Aug 27 2008
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If you use the word "vampire" then you will get only one point of view and probably the same one that everyone always gives. No one knows this answer except certain people who aren't telling, lol. There are others that have written about it but people don't appear to read their books. I know of at least two sources that differ from this slavic source idea but you can't lead a horse to water. Do the research and stay away from the already done ideas and more common words used and hyped. I am working on an article about this but I don't think anyone can prove this unequivocally unless they come forth with a family history and sources I am aware of will not be doing that any time too soon...Good luck.



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TumorNamedMarla
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12:23:06 Aug 27 2008
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Ok...the Bible says this about Cain...even though it is a work of Fiction

Genisis 4:11-15

11. And now art thou cursed from the earth,which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's brother from thy land.
12.When thou tillest the ground,it shall not henceforth yeild unto her strength:a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13.And Cain said unto the Lord,My punsihment is greater than I can bear.
15.And the Lord said unto him,Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain,vengence shall be taken on him sevenfold.And the Lord set a mark upon Cain,lest any finding him should kill him.

Ok...does this mean God made him a Vampire....NO.



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xLoganx
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12:31:46 Aug 27 2008
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I Myself Think That There Is A Little Basis For Each Belief In Each culture As Stated In DarkWolfMans Post And trroughout The Years The Stories Changed But That Is Only My Theory



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Whispersinthewind
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12:34:14 Aug 27 2008
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*Chuckles* Darkwolfman, damnit, I said no religious context...

Molliew, you cannot blame me for trying to lead someone down a differant path. In all fact, the vampire beginnings myth has been done over and over again...Those of whom know the actual truth are not just going to tell anyone...This I believe is the point you were wishing to make, but of course, we are in a place that does have mostly deaf ears.



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Lightningsking
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14:06:30 Aug 27 2008
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to my understanding the legend of the vampire started in romania



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xLoganx
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14:12:47 Aug 27 2008
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There Are Way More Than That My Friend
List From....

http://www.geocities.com/jptempleuk/SBN/rules/vampire_legends_from_around_the_.htm

Check Out The Different Types And Decide For Yourself.

Asanbosam:

African. Asanbosam are normal vampires except that they have hooks instead of feet. They tend to bite their victims on the thumb.
Baital:

Indian. These vampires natural form is that of a half-man, half-bat creature roughly four feet tall. They are otherwise unremarkable.
Bajang:

Malaysian. The bajang normally take the form of polecats. They could be enslaved by sorcerors and forced to kill the sorceror's enemies, and some families were believed to be hereditarily stalked by the bajang.
Baobhan Sith:

Scottish. The baobhan sith (pronounced buh-van she) are evil fairys who appear as beautiful young women and will dance with men they find until the men are exhausted, and then feed on them. The baobhan sith can be harmed and destroyed by cold iron.
Callicantzaros:

Ancient Greece. According to Greek legend, a child born on Christmas will become a allicantzaros.

These vampires often appear in half-human, half-animal shapes.
Ch'ing Shih:

Chinese. Ch'ing shih appear livid and may kill with poisonous breath in addition to draining blood. If a Ch'ing Shih encounters a pile of rice, it must count the grains before it can pass the pile. They can be harmed and destroyed by normal weapons and by sunlight. Their immaterial form is a glowing sphere of light, much like a will-o'-the-wisp.
Civateteo:

Mexican. These vampire-witches held sabbaths at crossroads and were believed to attack young children and to mate with human men, producing children who were also vampires. They were believed to be linked to the god Tezcatlipoca.
Dearg-due:

Irish. The dearg-due is a standard European vampire, except that it cannot shapeshift and may be defeated by building a cairn of stones over its grave.
Empusa:

Ancient Greece and Rome. Empusas appear as either beautiful women or ancient hags. They are strongly related to the incubi and succubi (q.v).
Ekimmu:

Assyrian. These are vampires of the spirit variety. They are naturally invisible and are capable of possessing humans. They can be destroyed by using wooden weapons or by exorcism.
Hanh Saburo:

Indian. These creatures live in forests and can control dogs. They will attempt to lure or drive travellers into the forest to attack them.
Incubus:

European. Incubi (plural of incubus) are sexual vampires. They are spirit vampires of a demonic nature. They may enter homes uninvited and can take on the appearance of other persons. They will often visit the same victim repeatedly. A victim of an incubus will experience the visits as dreams. The female version of an incubus is a succubus
Jaracara:

Brazilian. Normally appearing as snakes, jaracara are said to drink the milk of sleeping women as well as their blood.
Krvopijac:

Bulgarian. Krvopijacs (also known as obours) look like normal vampires except that they have only one nostril.They can be immobilized by placing wild roses around their graves. One way to destroy a krvopijac is for a magician to order its spirit into a bottle, which must then be thrown into a fire.
Lamia:

Ancient Greece and Rome. Lamias are exclusively female vampires. They often appear in half-human, half-animal

forms and eat the flesh of their victims in addition to drinking their blood. Lamias can be attacked and killed with normal weapons.
Loogaro:

West Indies. Appearing as old women, these vampires go abroad at night as blobs of light, much like the will-o'-the-wisp.
Mulo:

Serbian. Mulos normally appear as people wearing white clothes. They are active both day and night, and can assume the shapes of horses or sheep. They eat their victims in addition to drinking their blood. Mulos are also known as Vlokoslak.
Nosferatu:

Central and Eastern European. The "traditional" vampire described in Dracula. Most vampires appearing in movies and books are of this sort.
Rakshasa:

Indian. The Rakshasas are powerful vampires of the spirit variety. They usually appear as humans with animal features (claws, fangs, slitted eyes, etc.) or as animals with human features (flattened noses, hands, etc.). They often appear as tigers. In any form, rakshasas are powerful magicians. They eat the flesh of their victims in addition to drinking blood. Rakshasas may be destroyed by burning, sunlight, or exorcism.
Strige:

Eastern European. These are "birds of ill omen" who will attack people at night, with a whole flock of strigoi sometimes attacking a single victim. The strigoi use their long,sharp beaks to peck holes in their victims and drink their blood.
Vampyr:

Serbian. The vampyr is naturally invisible, but can be seen by animals or by a dhampir. A dhampir is the (living) offspring of a vampyr, and is capable of seeing vampyrs and of harming them physically. Dhampirs would often hire out to destroy vampyrs. Vampyrs cannot shapeshift
Vrykolakas:

Medieval Greece. Described as being "swollen" and "distended," vrykolakas can walk in daylight without being harmed. The vrykolakas may only call to be let into a specific house once a night. In addition to sucking blood, vrykolakas also cause nightmares. They may be destroyed by exorcism or burning. In Crete, they are called kathakano.
Wampir:

Polish and Russian. Wampiri appear exactly as normal humans and have a "sting" under their tongue rather than fangs. They are active from noon until midnight. A wampir may only be destroyed by burning. When the wampir is burned, its body will burst, giving rise to hundreds of small, disgusting

animals (maggots, rats, etc.). If any of these escape, then the wampir's "spirit" will escape as well, and will later return to seek revenge. These creatures are also called vieszcy and upierczi.





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TumorNamedMarla
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14:14:59 Aug 27 2008
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The vampire legend dates back to the earliest times of human civilization to the Assyrians, the Babylonians, and other peoples of the ancient Orient. The original vampire was not like the sophisticated, suave European aristocrat that we know of today. The vampire, at its origins, was a monster.

The bloodsucking Akhkharu is mentioned in the Sumerian mythology and later vampire-like spirits called the Lilu in Babylonian demonology. These female demons were said to roam during the hours of darkness, hunting and killing newborn babies and pregnant women. One of these demons, named Lilitu, was later adapted into Jewish demonology as Lilith.





In northern India could be found the BrahmarākŞhasa, a vampire-like creature with a head encircled by intestines and a skull from which it drank blood. Tales of Vetalas and pisachas, ghoul-like beings that inhabit corpses, are found in old Sanskrit folklore. A prominent story tells of King Vikramāditya and his nightly quests to capture an elusive Vetala. The stories of the Vetala have been compiled in the book Baital Pachisi The vetala is an undead, who like the bat associated with modern day vampire, is associated with hanging upside down on trees found in cremation grounds and cemeteries.

The hopping corpse is an equivalent of the vampire in Chinese tradition; however, it consumes the victim's life essence (qì) rather than blood.

The Ancient Egyptian goddess Sekhmet in one myth became full of bloodlust after slaughtering humans and was only sated after drinking alcohol colored as blood.

In Homer's Odyssey, the shades that Odysseus meets on his journey to the underworld are lured to the blood of freshly sacrificed rams, a fact that Odysseus uses to his advantage to summon the shade of Tiresias.

The strix, a nocturnal bird that fed on human flesh and blood is mentioned in Roman tales. The Romanian word for vampires, strigoi, is derived from the word, and so is the name of the Albanian Shtriga, but the myths about those creatures show mainly Slavic influence.

In the Old Russian anti-pagan work Word of saint Grigoriy (written in the 11th-12th century), it is claimed that polytheistic Russians made sacrifices to vampires.

As an example of the existence and prominence of similar legends at later times, it can be noted that 12th century English historians and chroniclers Walter Map and William of Newburgh recorded accounts of revenants that arguably bear some resemblance to East European vampires.

http://vampires.monstrous.com/antiquity_vampire.htm


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RaggedyAndy
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14:30:34 Aug 27 2008
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LordSesshoumaru:

No disrespect intended, but you've posted this exact same information, regarding the various types of vampires in folklore in other cultures, in two or three other threads since yesterday. It's great information but after reading the same thing over and over, it's becoming a bit redundant--find something new and post it.

As for your question, there is no definite response--and nothing different than we have already discussed before. There are many cultural and religious beginnings as to why each has their own version of Vampires (or the like--as indicated and proven in the types of vampires you posted). People were also thought to be Vampires due to medical conditions (such as Porphyria and Consumption) and the process of death--other vampires have been introduced to us by the imaginations of writers.



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xLoganx
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14:32:45 Aug 27 2008
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The Other Post Was To Find Out Why We Accept The Stoker Type Of Vampire As Well As Apply The Rules Of A Vampire To One Kind When There Are Many Others Out There



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Artemisia
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14:38:05 Aug 27 2008
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I found the following information on the webpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampirism :

The Oxford English Dictionary dates the first appearance of the word vampire in English from 1734, in a travelogue titled Travels of Three English Gentlemen published in the Harleian Miscellany in 1745. Vampires had already been discussed in German literature. After Austria gained control of northern Serbia and Oltenia in 1718, officials noted the local practice of exhuming bodies and "killing vampires". These reports, prepared between 1725 and 1732, received widespread publicity.

The English term was derived (possibly via French vampyre) from the German Vampir, in turn thought to be derived in the early 18th century from the Serbian вампир/vampir. The Serbian form has parallels in virtually all Slavic languages: Bulgarian вампир (vampir), Czech and Slovak upír, Polish wąpierz, and (perhaps East Slavic-influenced) upiór, Russian упырь (upyr'), Belarusian упыр (upyr), Ukrainian упирь (upir'), from Old Russian упирь (upir'). (Note that many of these languages have also borrowed forms such as "vampir/wampir" subsequently from the West; these are distinct from the original local words for the creature.) The exact etymology is unclear. Among the proposed proto-Slavic forms are *ǫpyrь and *ǫpirь. Like its possible cognate that means "bat" (Czech netopýr, Slovak netopier, Polish nietoperz, Russian нетопырь / netopyr' - a species of bat), the Slavic word might contain a Proto-Indo-European root for "to fly". An older theory is that the Slavic languages have borrowed the word from a Turkic term for "witch" (e.g., Tatar ubyr).

The first recorded use of the Old Russian form Упирь (Upir') is commonly believed to be in a document dated 6555 (1047 AD). It is a colophon in a manuscript of the Book of Psalms written by a priest who transcribed the book from Glagolitic into Cyrillic for the Novgorodian Prince Vladimir Yaroslavovich.The priest writes that his name is "Upir' Likhyi " (Упирь Лихый), which means something like "Wicked Vampire" or "Foul Vampire". This apparently strange name has been cited as an example both of surviving paganism and of the use of nicknames as personal names.

Another early use of the Old Russian word is in the anti-pagan treatise "Word of Saint Grigoriy", dated variously to the 11th–13th centuries, where pagan worship of upyri is reported.




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Artemisia
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14:39:47 Aug 27 2008
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here's a another bit from the same article i posted from above:

The notion of vampirism has existed for millennia; cultures such as the Mesopotamians, Hebrews, Ancient Greeks, and Romans had tales of demons and spirits which are considered precursors to modern vampires. However, despite the occurrence of vampire-like creatures in these ancient civilizations, the folklore for the entity we know today as the vampire originates almost exclusively from early 18th century Southeastern Europe, when verbal traditions of many ethnic groups of the region were recorded and published. In most cases, vampires are revenants of evil beings, suicide victims, or witches, but they can also be created by a malevolent spirit possessing a corpse or by being bitten by a vampire. Belief in such legends became so pervasive that in some areas it caused mass hysteria and even public executions of people believed to be vampires.




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iamduckspit
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20:07:59 Aug 27 2008
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The source of any vampire is another person's weakness. Period.

Vampire = feeder of another's weakness.

That's my opinion. Simple and to the point. No fireworks or need for deep scientific studies.



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Undervampsgaze
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21:09:58 Aug 27 2008
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So be it i hear you but the question was what is the source of all vampires.. I saying so many people say so many things it is hard to believe were the source or who the source is..



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Whispersinthewind
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07:43:01 Aug 28 2008
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Personally, the source of all vampires is....*Drum roll* Human creation!!!

Seriously though, the stories of the vampire started back in the time of the Sumerians, the Greeks, before the Germanic, before the Nazerene, way before Constantine...

Even if the Koran depics lilitu in the garden with Samael and Kane, does not mean any of the above were vampire...On the contrary...Kane was ultimately a wonderer. Thanks to Whitewolf, this was taken completely out of context.

But, enough of my religious idealogies, I will leave those to the bible thumpers.

Did you know the Japanese have their myths as well, it is not only certain countries, it is all over the world. Pic and choose, that is all I have to say.



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xLoganx
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11:35:30 Aug 28 2008
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I Think Every continent And Country Has A Myth, That Is What I Mean.
Was It So Random Of A Thought Shared By All Or A Story That Went Around And Changed As It Did?
Even The American Indians Had A Belief



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Whispersinthewind
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11:57:10 Aug 28 2008
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A good allegory would be the movie: Finding Nemo. In the movie, Nemo's father Marlin was looking for him...The other fishes were giving a differant story everytime.

Now base this off the fact that instead of fishes telling stories, nations did. As a childrens boogeyman story. The placebo worked so well, that fictional authors started writing about the same thing, just reiterating the story to their own liking. Thus the myth of the vampire as it pertains to historic relevance.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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14:52:34 Aug 28 2008
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whispersinthewind is right i mean over time stories will be created and changed so it could have started with one vampire, and nations just adapted their own stories



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LovelyXDEATH35
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hmm im not sure if this website has anything that you havent seen yet but it could help

http://undiscovered-realm.blogspot.com/2007/07/t-he-history-of-vampire-begins-in.html



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DravenG
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15:59:39 Aug 28 2008
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Well I would have to agree as well each country has their own belief, they may be all simuliar but all come down to the same thing just different names



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Spiritwalker
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22:43:07 Aug 28 2008
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Many cultures vampires legends come from 'events' that have gotten distorted over time. Some are taken from other cultures and twisted to fit the new one.



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darknessgalore
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well vampires have been interpreted over the years in different cultures differently. its not easy possibly to find the actual root of vampires i think.



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Daeva
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I want to clear up this thought on people saying vampires originated in Romania.

As a nation-state, the country was formed by the merging of Moldavia and Wallachia in 1859 and it gained recognition of its independence in 1878. Later, in 1918, they were joined by Transylvania, Bukovina and Bessarabia. At the end of World War II, parts of its territories (roughly the present day Moldova) were occupied by USSR and Romania became a member of the Warsaw Pact. With the fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989, Romania started a series of political and economic reforms.

Professor Sabina Ispas, director of the Institute of Ethnography and Folklore in Bucharest. When she addressed the World Dracula Congress in May of 2000 in Transylvania she stated unequivocally, “there is no tradition of vampires here in Romania.” She went on to say, “Bram Stoker presented his fiction with a special identity of his own making. Until 10 years ago, we Romanians hadn't even heard of the Dublin writer or his character, Dracula. Dracula did not live in Romania; there are no vampires in our mythology and no vampiric castle.”4

4.Journal of Dracula, Dracula: Sense and Nonsense, 2000
http://www.benecke.com/pdf-files/dracula_2000_TSD_congress_transylvania.pdf
(Excerpts: Publisher Desert Island Books, ISBN # 1-874287-24-4,
www.ucs.mun.ca/~emiller)


The Romans conquered the Dacians in Transylvania and occupied the territory for around 165 years. It is from this occupation that the language took root; Romanian so when they refer to someone as such they mean someone descended from those of the occupation who speak this language that evolved from Vulgar Latin. This was the peasant language. The aristocracy of Rome spoke Greek. Many of those who were born in the area spoke more than one language as did Vlad Tepes and Elizabeth Bathory. He was supposedly descended from this occupation but they really don't know if it is from Dacians because generally the Romans would slaughter everyone and then put others into their armies. Therefore before the country was formed in the late 19th Century, when you use the term Romanian it just means they speak the language and were descended from this area and occupation but ethnicity is hard to pin down. Many of the superstitions in that area came from the Roma who are nomadic and settled all over that area. Their language has been studied and relates to those in the region of India but even in Romania there is a dialect of that language mixed with the Romanian language. These people have many superstitions and I am sure they have many stories as they are a colorful people but the very first one...Not in Romania because that country didn't exist then.





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cadrewolf
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How can we determine the origin of the vampire epedimic, many scrolls or books or even written language was lost or never written down. many have speculated to the early where abouts it had started and many countries believe they are the origin point, from lilth or cain or chineese it is so hard to pin point at this time with out many scrolls or manuscripts to help. many are bed time stories or events of disease that was mistaken for vampirism.



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behemot
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00:37:05 Aug 29 2008
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we can all make assumption as to where the origin started from but unless we can invent a time machine to go back and find out the truth then it will always be a mystery.



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TumorNamedMarla
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The internet does not hold all information on the topic...maybe if people would go to an actual library and look through history books that are several decades old...they may find more of what they are searching for.



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behemot
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01:24:10 Aug 29 2008
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Good point , We have became so dependent on the info that the internet has provided. That all of those books in the library are nothing more than a bunch of paper weights rotting away on the shelves.



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Behomoth
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Your point is well taken but many of the old books that go into many of the legends concerning vampires and werewolfs are in public domain in the US and can indeed be found online if you know where to look. Many things were orally transferred down via families now it is tracking the families if you know where to look and finding out about their backgrounds and if they actually have written down histories that can be found in any book on or offline. Libraries are fine but many things have been uploaded right onto the internet and beyond that would you be able to read some of these old languages through and including Old English that bears absolutely no reseblence to what is spoken in any English speaking country now? Some of these things are hard to find and then you find them in books of people who just parrot the common view. Why do people want to know this...if you find out let me know because it won't relate to the present and if there is definitive evidence once found someone will argue about it.



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TumorNamedMarla
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01:59:44 Aug 29 2008
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True...the internet has alot of info at the touch of a mouse...but books still hold more info then the internet ever will.But unlike Wikipedia where info can be added and changed...a book printed in 1920 is still the same today as it was then.Everytime a book or movie is made about vampires....the writer adds to the myth or changes things about the origin of a vampire.That is why so many people get confused on the concept.



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gealachlass
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02:51:43 Aug 29 2008
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I think its a little of all & none. Vampires started in several ways ,each making it a little different from others. (different clans = diff. abilities.) So in that point each story is true creating a different clan. Much like a animal and its species.
EX: polar bear, grizzly bear, panda. ect..



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AlwaysViolet
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04:28:01 Aug 29 2008
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Honestly, all these accounts and descriptions are backed up by plenty of source.... I've read it all several rimes and even watched it on "Cities of the underworld." You know if they put it on the History Chanel, it came from reliable sources. And yet, nobody can say from sure where, who or how the first vampire came from. I think it's like the question about "Which came first; the chicken or the egg?" But instead, was it the vampire or the bat that came first? Way back when some one might have been able to discover the answer, everyone was too afraid to search for it, and now when any one might be brave enough to actually find out... the answer is buried in thousands of years of history and all we can do is suppose and have theories.



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Harly
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05:31:51 Aug 29 2008
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I have always believed that the stories all came from Lillith and continued from there. So in theory it came from the Bible.



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DemianA
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06:50:53 Aug 29 2008
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Vampires originated nowhere. They never existed except in the racial unconcious of humans who feared things of the dark and so imagined creatures which we all have in our memory throughout the history of our species. Speculation, fear, and imagination is the origin of myth. And each human culture added their particular desciption to the archetype, as described above, over the course of our evolution.
Of course the archetype has been the source of psychopathological behavior of some note worthy humans in our history. If there were no "acting out" of these individuals we would have no stories of vampires. The origins of bloodlust are easier to explain than those of vampires, and they are based on the common practice in mostly ancient cultures who practiced blood drinking. The blood of an enemy was was swallowed after killing them in battle.



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Behomoth
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13:28:37 Aug 29 2008
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Lilith stories came from another culture. Some already posted this. Lilith was something the Jewish folks came up with to explain two verses they had in the Old Testament. Only one is included. Because of the nature of the culture women were not wanted to be equals in their writings. They had one verse that stated Adam and his mate were created at the same time and another that said she was derived from his rib. If you use that old science that most keep talking about the rib story doesn't add up according to what I have read. Regardless they had something they call Midrash and in it were explanations they had no explanation for and one of them is the Lilith story as an explanation of why there are two verses. If you think everything that the History Channel shows is truth well they had something about this in one of their broadcasts. She has nothing to do with vampirism as far as I can tell. I think it is futile to look there for the source of vampyrism.



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Spiritwalker
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17:43:42 Aug 29 2008
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Nexus -



True, that probably would solve the problem but it would be nigh impossible, if not completely impossible.



There are probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of vampire stories and lore out there.


We also can not miss the fact that many vampire stories and lore have been lost and or forgotten.



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CrystalJolynn
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Lilith is believed by some to be the first wife of Adam, a woman who existed prior to the creation of Eve. The story basically states that Adam and Lilith were each created from dust. Lilith’s dust was dirtier than Adam’s. When Adam approached her for the purpose of having sex, Lilith refused to be subservient to him, questioning why she should be made to lie beneath him. When Adam attempted to force her, she called upon the secret name of God and fled from Eden to the banks of the Red Sea. There, she mated with demons and gave birth to demons until God sent three angels to make her return to Adam.

Lilith claimed that due to the things she had done since leaving him she could not return to Adam. The angels told her that if she did not return to Adam, she would die. Again Lilith argued, stating that she had been created immortal, a being which could not die. The angels then told Lilith that one hundred of her children would be slain for each day that she refused to return to Adam. In response, Lilith vowed to kill one unprotected child for every one of her children that was destroyed. An arrangement was reached and God created Eve for Adam while Lilith became the first vampire and slipped into the role of being Queen of the Demons, alternately seducing men and eating children, and making guest appearances throughout history.

Those who have read the Bible, however, may know that there is no mention of any such person as Lilith in the book of Genesis, although she is mentioned in the book of Isaiah (34:14). There is also no mention of Adam ever having had a first wife. Delving a bit deeper, one may discover a Lilith mentioned in the Midrash. Further investigation will show the recurrence of the tale of the first wife of Adam in the Talmud. For those who are unfamiliar with these books, the Midrash is a collection of Hebrew legends, and the Talmud is a Hebrew text, written by rabbis as a type of written interpretation of oral traditions associated with the Torah. The Old Testament of the Bible is essentially the Christian version of the Torah and therefore the Torah and its associated books become a good resource for researching Biblical mythology.


Please add a source link when using material directly from another website. ~CTD

http://www.angelfire.com/biz4/vampyreresearch/lilt.html



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UpirLikhyj
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The Slavic Vampire: the Only Actual Vampire Archetype

Despite the claims from most "vampirologists" and other vampire "experts" that vampiric beings existed in the folklore of almost all cultures, worldwide, the fact is that the "vampire" did not exist outside the Slavic countries:


"These writers, and others, established the notion that 'every culture has a form of vampire belief'that 'vampires' were a universal, even archetypal human superstition, and that they were found world- and history-wide, buried in every body of myth, hidden in every holy book, lurking behind every fairy-tale.

"And of course, they were quite wrong!!! The folklorists managed this feat by taking each separate element of the vampire metaphor and using it to qualify as a 'type of vampire' absolutely anything whatsoever that fitted even one aspect of the definition. Was it a supernatural being that drank blood? Then it's a 'type of vampire'! Was it something that came back from the grave? Then it's a 'type of vampire'! Was it an entity or revenant that was 'hungry' or that pestered the living for sex? Then it's a 'type of vampire'! Never mind that the individual cultures concerned had complex histories and belief systems to which these 'types of vampire' really belonged. They all got lumped together, and suddenly the word 'vampire' included at least half of the myths, legends, and folklore ever known on the planet. Child-killing demons, blood-drinking gods, hungry ancestor spirits, cannibalistic demons, fierce animal ghosts, night-hag entities, incubi/succubi, the restless dead, plague demons...these and many other very culture-specific beliefs, all with their own context and history, suddenly became part of the definition of 'vampire'."


http://www.sanguinarius.org/articles/vampdef.shtml (emphasis added)


The True "Source of All Vampires"

As for Lilith and Cain, neither of these mythological characters provide any compelling evidence that identifies them as the "source" of the Vampire: Cain was simply the mythological first murderer. And Lilith was a complete invention resulting from Rabbis and other Jewish scholaras misinterpreting the seeming double creation of Man story in Genesis and, not knowing then that in fact there had been two separate accounts that were later amalgamated into our current Book of Genesis, they attempted to explain the two accounts by fabricating out of thin air the assumption that the first account of Man and Woman being created together that this must have been some previously unknown first wife and that the second account that stated that the Woman was formed later on was of Adam's second wife, Eve.

In neither case is there anything definitive or even compelling that indicates some evidence of a true Vampire "Source."

The true and only "Source of All Vampires" was the account found first in ancient Sumer of the Annunaki that was somewhat duplicated in Genesis 6:1-4 in which a small group of unique males descended from the skies, mated with women, had children by them that... due to their "angelic" characteristics and superhuman sexual capacity had them vilified and hated by men due to the great love and attraction women had for these unique males. And this singular characteristic is also identical to that shared by those discovered in Medieval times in Eastern Europe that resulted in them being vilified, hated, and slaughtered in the same manner and for the same reason.

This "Fallen Angel" progeny were and are the true and only "Source of All Vampires."



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Behomoth
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07:47:04 Aug 30 2008
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Inanna has a good knowledge of Vampirism because you are using the word vampire and that word became popular because of writings in the region or related to the region the word is derived. Inanna writes under the name of Vyrdolak but as you can see some of it is extrapolated with religious viewpoints. Number 1, one has to prove that there ever were fallen angels beyond beliefs of Judeo/Chrisitianity and associated religions. Most of what is written about them is considered to be in pseudoapocraphal writings or apocraphal. That means it is not canon and open to interpretation as to being suspect of its true origins. A few minor references elsewhere. When you study this you find out there were several falls and there were groups that were misrepresented to be part of the angelic base who were not if you look closer to the culture than what is superficially written. I know another who is an author from the UK that believes they stem from fallen angels but his take on it is slightly different but research into this area is his expertise.

I personally don't agree with her on all points and we have published from this in the GYP because we stay sort of neutral on all of it. Some believe this is true but one has to look at information outside of religious writings which is really hard because way back everything was wrapped up in that. I personally don't think she is correct. I am not going into all the particulars. I have my speculative articles as well based in historical folklore but that is all they can ever be because she can only prove the historical things about vampire scares and the like and the mood of the times but when she gets into more specifics...she can't. I have read other things by people just as credible if not more so. The whole topic is a futile debate.



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RAAGIOSL
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15:19:14 Sep 20 2008
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I can't really pinpoint a exact source, but I do beleive it dates back to the B.C. times in encient egypt.



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Jypcie
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03:56:44 Sep 21 2008
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it could be possible that the origin of vampires started back before the continental shift and each race grew with it and adapted it to their way of lives since



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Confusion
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21:47:59 Oct 04 2008
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I think stories got spread around and each culture adopted a version of their own. Ya' know ... a rumor so to speak.



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Evita
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04:01:20 Oct 06 2008
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No, no, no---it's Dracula of course!!! Lol, don't take me seriously, I'm just joking. It's an interesting thread, and a lot of people had some pretty good responses, keep up the good work! ;)



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FALSExCURE
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16:36:22 Oct 06 2008
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I've always liked the theory that Judas Iscariot was cursed because of his betryal of Christ and was the first vampire



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Bloodmother
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22:36:04 Oct 21 2008
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This is one I've never heard:

Sleeping with your grandmother.

from the Vampire Lectures.



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Sorren
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00:55:10 Oct 22 2008
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ok as far as I know the oldest know living text I have read is about a lowly goat hearder in the romanian mountains tending to his flock when they started disappearing one by one and then in an abandoned castle he had seen lights and smoke rising from the chimneys knowing that noone had lived in it for many many years he had gotten a little worried and ran back into town to spread the news, the one day he vanished.

as far as I know that story is from around 500 ad

another I heard was not that cain was a vampire but it was Judas as being the first, the traitor couldn't handle the fact he had turned Jesus in and hung himself but just as the last light from the son hit the earth the rope broke, robbing him of his death he was forced to walk at night haunted by all the demons from his own conciseness



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DeadlyXDesire
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00:58:17 Oct 22 2008
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I am not sure that the source of All Vampires will ever be found but each culture does have their own belief about many things so I do believe there is a truth to them somewhere.



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lordxofxwar
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01:02:38 Oct 22 2008
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From my understanding there are writings of vampire like creatures mentioned in glyphs from Ancient Egypt.



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FallenDreams
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14:44:07 Oct 22 2008
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You have asked a very difficult question that we all ask at some point. The problem is that there are so many varied reports from all over the world, from many different time periods....So realistically unless you were there when it happened there is no real way to know.



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LouisLeMeer
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00:01:29 Oct 23 2008
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It is my personal Understanding that nearly all cultures had their own version of a vampire, the names and some of the charactoristics are rare and may only be found in said cultures folktales. But which folktales to listen to? thats up to you, since much of them change, hence the nature of folktales, over time to fit the context of the current generation.



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FolRacht
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01:50:02 Oct 23 2008
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I had heard one fairly interesting theory that vampire legends may have been started by unfaithful spouses making excuses.

"No, I didn't cheat on you while you were away! I was seduced by an evil undead vampire!"

I highly doubt that that was the origin, but I thought it was amusing.

I do, however, think that misunderstanding of the decomposition process, i.e., they dig up a body and it doesn't look decomposed, but rather appears healthier than while alive, may have had something to do with the origin of vampire legends.

Oh, and boogeyman stories to keep kids from misbehaving.



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Confusion
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01:54:51 Oct 23 2008
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Regardless ... it would be impossible to try to determine the source of all vampires because it would be impossible to compile a list of every single legend or story of vampires since the beginning of mankind.



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Sorren
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02:30:47 Oct 23 2008
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no but isn't that what this site is about ? trying to catalog everything vampire ? I'd say Cancer had a real good Idea and it takes all of us to help him out.



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Indulgence
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02:46:23 Oct 23 2008
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From the main page ...


''Our goal is to catalog everything there is to be cataloged about Vampires.''



It doesn't say everything vampire. But everything there is to be CATALOGED about vampires.


However, Vampire Rave does not catalog any of vampires histories or different stories of vampires. All that it catalogs are things such as whatever is listed in the Vampire Database.



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daughteroflestat
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who can really be certain? it is possible that an event occured, which led to our kind. but have you ever considered the possibility that nothing in this world created us? maybe, we are creations of Satan himself. as God made man. Satan made vampires. we simply came from nothing.



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dabbler
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FolRacht , Thank you. Very interesting post. Some lore was lost in the oral tradition to printed word I am sure, medical journals being well preserved, and often used by fiction writers for study. I can clearly see the base for some very lasting vampire tales. Part, folk, part modern inventivness.


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Levity
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20:54:21 Oct 23 2008
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Maybe there were completely different cases at the same time, in different places around the globe.. They could be connected, or as a simple evolution of man..

No one can really know, but I think that for the sang vamps that may be the case, as for energy vamps I believe it to be a very simple yet elegent evolution of man.



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Ludak
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14:45:15 Oct 25 2008
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Just an old fairy story - perhaps?

When God created Adam, he was lonely, so God created Lilith from the same dust from which Adam was molded. But they quarreled; Adam wished to rule over Lilith and insisted that she would lie under him. But Lilith was also proud and willful, claiming equality with Adam because she was created from the same dust as him.
She left Adam and fled the Garden. God sent three angels in pursuit of Lilith. They caught her and ordered her to return to Adam. She refused, and said that she would henceforth weaken and kill little children (and in some accounts) lust and feast on blood.
The angels overpowered her, and she promised that if the mother hung an amulet over the baby bearing the names of the three angels, she would stay away from that home. So they let her go, God then created Eve to be Adam's mate [created from Adam's rib, so that she couldn't claim equality]. And ever since so the story goes, Lilith flies around the world, howling her hatred of mankind through the night, and vowing vengeance.

Parts of this story appear in many folk legends, also, it is mentioned in The Bible, The Dead Sea Scrolls , The Talmud and also in Shedim cults of 7 century BC. ???



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SelfDestruct
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Let me state this. by no means am I pushing my views on anyone.
My intentions are to just give other prospectives on the origin of Vampyres.


In the beginning...
God began to create Heaven and Earth...
The Earth was first unformed and void;
and darkness was upon the face of the deep,
and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters..

God said “let there be light”...
And there was light; and God saw that it was good..
God divided light , from the darkness;
calling the light day and the dark night.
This was the first day.
God said “ Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water that it may divide the waters from the waters”...
And it was so. God called the expanse Sky. And this was the second day.
God said “ Let the waters be gathered in one place, so that dry land may appear”
And it was so. God called the dry land Earth; The gathered waters Seas.
And God saw that it was good.
God created behemoths called Chalkydri to be the guardians of the new born world,
and these were Dragons, and they lived through God’s glory and kept watch over the Earth...
and God said “ Let the earth bring forth Vegetation;
Seed-bearing Plants, and Fruit Trees of every kind... and God saw that it was good and this was the third day...
On the forth day God said “ Let the seas bring forth swarms of living creatures;
and Birds that fly above the Earth across the expanse of the Sky..
God created the giant Sea monsters , and other creatures, and the winged Birds of every kind..
And God saw that it was good and blessed them all and bade them be fertile and increase upon the earth...
On the fifth day God said “ Let the Earth bring forth every kind of living creature;
Cattle , wild beasts of every kind , and Creeping things” and it was so. And God saw that it was good...and God said “Let us raise up beings who will have dominion over the lower forms”
and it was so..

But this was not good , for these called Grigori had no souls and would not worship God.
And God was displeased, and these fell from his favor...So God created again and God made the human in his image, in the image of God were they created; Male and female.
God blessed them and bade them be fertile and increase; to fill the Earth and master it and God gave them reign over all lower creatures that creep upon the Earth.
Another creature there was , who was seeded with pride. She was Lillith.
She had been created to mate with Adam, the first human but was not of the same flesh, thus she felt she was his equal and would not bow down to Adam.
And as with Lillith , God seemingly forgot the Grigori, and they fell under the sway of the dark fallen one, and he began to scheme with them how to reclaim creation...

Before Earth was, God created Angels to help minister to God’s creation.
Mighty were these in strength and grace, and near to God were they in power.
The Angels served God in joy and glory.
All the Angels served God save one called Lucifer,
whose name meant “Light of God” and God loved him, but Lucifer was jealous of God.
And Jealous of God’s creation of all the worlds God had made , full of Creatures who loved and worshiped God..Lucifer desired all this for himself, and sought to wrest it from God’s grasp..
Lucifer sowed seeds of discontent among his fellow Angel’s and with his God given light won many to his side..
And so began a war that shook Heaven itself..and God saw what Lucifer had wrought and was sore displeased..God stoped the war and banished Lucifer and his minions from Heaven..Forever out of the light of God..Despite his desire and black conceit, Lucifer had not the power to contest against God. And was cast out of Gods light and into eternal darkness...
Though he failed in heaven , Lucifer came to Earth with his seed’s of envy..
These seeds bore fruit among the soul-less ones, thus the first of the devourers of flesh and blood were born into the world God created.


Please add a source link when using material directly from another website. ~CTD

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/520263/1/Bloody_Life_Dusk_til_Dawn



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Kyriele
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19:04:03 Oct 26 2008
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Hmmm....since these are thoughts and not truths.....

How about an infection that caused extreme anemia and the body went in search of the perfect form of air-bearing, iron-rich substance....blood.

There is a story of a young girl in the subways of New York city decades ago, who bit people. Hailed as a found vampire, medical examination turned up nothing more than pernicious anemia. Without guidance, animals and unknowing children, hear their body's cry for certain substances: and find it almost effortlessly. It accounts for children with pica who will eat dirt or other "non-edibles".

If an infection occurred early on in the development of mankind causing light sensitivity, pallor, anemia...before the advent of medicines..could this not have caused vampirism? Those with the disease could pass it on through saliva and blood. Children born to these parents contracting the virus in utero. Knowing how "humans" would feel about their peculiarities (likening it to demon possession, murders, etc), they formed their own covens and hid from mortal eyes. They would have allowed mythos to be built up around super human powers and abilities to cause fear in the hearts of those who would destroy them. And later use the scientific cloak of skepticism to keep from being detected.

Umm..just a thought?


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artemka
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21:42:14 Oct 26 2008
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At a risk of not being modest, a lot of the vampire types copied and pasted into this thread are summarised in these two articles

GLOBAL VAMPIRES OF LEGEND & MYTH and, GLOBAL VAMPIRES OF LEGEND & MYTH II

as ever UpirLikhyj's profile is a fine source for those who want to know a bunch about the origin of the word vampire

As others have said, Romania is a very modern country and simply can't be the source of any vampire legends.

It really all depends on what the individual persons considers to a vampire;

blood drinking supernatural creatures can be seen in cave paintings dating all the way back to 3000 BC [Brahmaparusha]

cemetary dwelling shape shifters are mentioned in indian religious writings all the way back to 1500BC [Rakshasas]

I have also found an unsupported reference on a google answers page here:

"The first reference to vampirism can be found in the work of Lucius Apuleius, a roman writer and philosopher, who lived from 125-180. His novel "De asino aureo" tells the story of the two wicked sisters Meroe
and Panthia who drink the blood of Socrates (not the philosopher). They close his wounds with a sponge so that he does not notice his loss, but when the next day he bends over to drink from a river, the sponge drops into the water, the last drop of life flows into the water and Socrates dies."


but, of course, this last quote is unsupported so far ...


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alixaryon
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22:36:49 Oct 26 2008
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What Is The Source Of All Vampires, eh?

Gotta be this giant demonic pool of blood somewhere deep under Earths surface forgotten from which all the vampires sprang like sparks out from the fire.

It is all ancient history now and no one remembers.



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Bloodmother
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Hmm . . . posting that sex with your grandmother would surely lead to vampirism revived this thread. And the unfair thing about this scenario is that the grandmother escapes scot free! She has sex -presumably with a grandson, but maybe not - and it's the grandchild who bears the curse! Life is not fair.

here are a few more savory claims: child born with teeth. Okay, that's definitely suspicious.

An extra nipple was a sign of scary stuff to come. How many on vr have an extra nipple?

An animal flying or leaping over a corpse can ruin an otherwise good wake.

Having your shadow stolen. Worse than identity theft.

Being weaned but suckling a second time was perverse and doomed one to suckle evermore. But once the milk dried up, you know what came next.



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jdviper
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05:42:50 Oct 27 2008
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A 1047 AD reference to one "Upir Lichy" refers to the first vampire. However....
The oldest known document with a reference to a 'vampire-like" being is a 2400 BC tablet known as "The Sumerian King List", a list of all the kings of Sumer, their paternal lineage, and the years of their rule. One entry is for the famous King Gilgamesh. It says that Gilgamesh's father was a Lillu. In Sumerian myth, there were a number of beings who, like the incubi and succubi [q.v. 2.04], come to sleeping
individuals to mate with them. Lillu is an incubus (male). One of the succubi was Lilake/Lilitu whom some claim to be a forerunner of Lilith. But not even Sumer can be definitively credited as coming up with the first vampire. Why? Because Sumer is also the first civilization to develop cuneiform, a form of writing which uses word sounds rather than pictures. Consequently, there is no written histories prior to Sumer.



Please add a source link when using material directly from another website. ~CTD

How did Dracula become the first Vampire?



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artemka
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22:32:07 Oct 27 2008
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jdviper

No, the 1047 reference to what some believe is 'Upir' does not relate to vampires in its current meaning. The actual document that the reference relates to is lost :(

No-one has ever thought that the priest 'Upir' was ever a vampire in the common use of the word

The eastern European word vampire is thought by some to be derived from the упырь (Upir) from around 1300

The 1047 reference is simply the first record of the use of those letters in that order before it was used to describe the undead risen from grave being

Please cite your sources if you're going to copy someone else's work into the forum.

That source was defeated a little while back with earlier cave paintings showing blood drinking folk carbon dated back to 3000 BC






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Doru
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Vampire Rave - The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory - http://www/VampireRave.com

The Belziet Tablet was created by a unique mystery cult operating in the shadow of the ancient Greek city-states with a clear connection to Egypt and the Hebrew tribes on the other side of the Mediterranean Sea. This cult practiced a worshp of being best described as vampires.


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illuminata
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this topic has been discussed before and one answer clearly remained in my mind.. i found one answer here that is somehow near to the account of what was discussed before..

it was during the time of adam and eve, contrary to the beliefs of many they are not the only two beings made in the eden. there was another woman named lilith. Lilith was banished to be adam's wife to be replaced by eve. this angered lilith, and in her jealous rage she took the form of a serpent. she then tricked eve to cross the boundary separating eden from the place where the tree of knowledge stands.

on the other hand, during a short-lived connobium between lilith and adam (adam was attracted to lilith against his will) and they bore offssprings of demons and bad spirits.. lilith left adam for she was not a suitable partner for him. when she returned, she attached herself to adam's son, Cain, and bore more demons and bad spirits from him.

this bad spirits took their solid form from humans and taking in their blood, thus making them stronger. hence, the vampires were made.

that's how the tale goes, it's earlier than stories of count vlad dracul and other known vampires.

but anyway, these thread is really interesting and sparked an old feeling of like being "home" again... it reminds me of the older days. =)

and i've seen here a post by crystaljolyyn and upirlykij (i hope i got the spelling right)... detailed accounts about lilith, adam and cain... old faces providing detailed accounts... geez i miss this...


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Jynx
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16:16:16 Oct 29 2008
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In Indian Religion

The Supreme Goddess Mother Shakti is worshipped as Goddess Kali too and its from unknown past milleniums and Goddess Kali is total feature of total Sanguine Vampire with supreme psychic and para-psychic nature.


when Mother Shakti (Goddess Of Power/ Goddess Power) When to eliminate the evil monstars which are undestroyable by any divine mean, she turn to dark most from the divine most and become Goddess Kali and then eliminate the evil forces.



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Confusion
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xvitaeXofXlifex -


Wrong. Vlad Tepes [Dracul, The Impaler, Son of the Dragon], was the person in history Bram Stroker based his novel [Dracula] off of. Vlad himself never did anything vampire like.



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Doru
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Some of the earliest evidence of Ritual Vampirism comes from Tartaria in Transylvania and stems to the fifth millennium BC. Remains of a human body were found buried in a fire pit along with clay tablets upon which were inscribed the names of the ’Sumerian’ god Enki and the ranking number of Father Anu. The language was subsequently termed ’proto-Sumerian’ and represented some of the earliest written artifacts yet to be found.

From the following link:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/dragons/esp_sociopol_dragoncourt02.htm#part%201



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nobodysfallenangel
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I don't know any links to back this up because this was the words of my Great Aunt Eva Andrade. She had told me that it was a Fallen Angel one who was given the gift of eternity with blood.

I honestly think that it was one of the men who followed Jesus Christ...


I really have heard all different myths, but really I think it has been taken way too overboard.

Kind of like the Bible for instance. I have no offense to those who are Christian, but I do believe that the Bible has been changed by man.

It's all like the telephone game here, but one day to have proof to back everything up about Vampires the better. I do believe we are out there.



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CherryAdvocaat
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Why do so many of you relate this to the bible? In the whole spectrum of things, the bible is not really that old. 2000 years is not a long time in the history of the world, there were people around thousands of years before that.
I still don't think that vampires exist, and thus doubt that there is a source, but it is fun speculating.



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Oceanne
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Predating back to nearly 4000 B.C.E., the Ekimmu is one of the first and oldest myths known to man. This entity was given life by the beliefs of the Ancient Assyrians and shared by the Babylonians as well, and later with the Inuit and Eskimo tribes. The Assyrians, are believed by some to have given birth to the vampire belief, others believe, that it was Egypt. The Ekimmu was fearfully dreaded by the Mesopotamian empire and was described as a very angry and bitter spirit of a once living human being, who was unable to find peace. The Ekimmu’s appearance was described by the Inuit and Eskimo tribes as “severely rotting corpses”and considered unusual in the fact that they maintained, the mind and personality they had in their mortal life. However, the Ancient Sumerians description of the Ekimmu is somewhat different than that of the Inuit and Eskimo tribes.

The Sumerians described the Ekimmu as demonic, phantom-like entities that roamed the earth, unable to obtain solace, searching for victims. They were also referenced as “evil wind gusts” and according to Sumerian mythology, wind is often shown as a expression of psychic or apparitional power. (As in the example of the Babylonian God, Marduk.) The Ekimmu has also been referenced on rare occasions with the British Banshee who would be heard wailing and crying outside of a household, warning that there would be a forthcoming death to someone within that home. The Ekimmu has never actually been labeled “vampire” because of their lack of blood consumption, but, because the Ekimmu’s characteristics are very similar to the “utukku”( a.k.a. Uruku) meaning “vampyre which attacks man” derived from a cuniform inscription, and much more is known of the Ekimmu, it has respectfully earned it’s place amongst the vampire myths.
http://www.darknessembraced.com/vampire/content/view/33/88/



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Oceanne
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And what about the seven demons? Another race of vampires that is also mentioned as a vampiric entity which was very much feared.These beings have been mentioned in many Mesopotamian religious texts and incantations, and are mentioned in Sumerian banishments.



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Euresken
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05:37:58 Nov 18 2008
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I don't belive they exsist. Its not cultures beliving in vampires, all cultures have MYTHS about vampires, no where does it say that a culture in whole belives in vampires. so to answer the original question I don't think they originated at all. Of course I could be wrong, and I'd like to think that I could be.



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UpirLikhyj
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Given the popular assumption that vampires must be blood-drinkers, that this characteristic most identifies the "creature" as vampiric, we naturally seek the "Source of all Vampires" as the original bloodsucker. Hence, the references here to the Sumerian Ekimmu, Lilith, and the many ancient myths found worldwide of blood-sucking ghosts, goblins, and other buggaboos that purportedly went bump in the night for our ancient ancestors.

And yet, is this assumption of the original "vampires" as bloodsuckers justifiable? As I have pointed out many times in these forum topics, the original accounts from Eastern Europe where the term "vampire" actually originated do not mention blood-drinking at all. No... not once. Even the eponymously entitled www.sanguinarius.org likewise states that even when the "... the 'vampire' was right there and active, there are almost no stories of blood-drinking." (While they admit "...almost no stories...", the fact is that there are none.)

So... if this is true, why then do we seek the Vampre Source in ancient blood-drinkers? Does it not make far better sense to attempt such a search by researching not a fictitious trait that has no true historical basis but rather to instead research the etymology and original definition of the word "vampire," itself? Only thusly can we hope to arrive at a true understanding of who and what the "vampire" truly was and from whence came its true Source.


- Upir'






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syra
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I don't think anyone knows for sure where vampires came from, each culture seems to have their own take on it. And since the belief in some kind of vampire is so wide spread I don't see how anyone could deny the exsistance of the previously mentioned.



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Whisperwind
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Well I believe there's two types of vampires in this world:

Cursed & Through genetics

The cursed vampires most probably originated from Judas Iscariot or Kain.

Genetic vampires ... Well through mutations ...



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Artume
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First of ~WhisperWind~, the Judas/Kain mythos is a movie generated aspect. In the movies, Judas was turned vampire and destined to roam the land for all of eternity...Kain was virtually the same ideal.

I think someone just put both scenerios together and confused one for the other. Judas was never vampire...Though this cannot be proven. Nor really can the Kain mythos for that matter.

As far as genetics, this would be considered heredity. But transmutation could be a very big part of science fact if one would think of experimental implications.

Nonetheless, regardless of the genes of heredity, it really depends on which kind of vampire we are discussing. The blood feasting from the movies, the slavic vampire, or the spiritual psychic vampire?



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Wolvie
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if you eliminate religious context then you eliminate the majority of vampires or vampire like creatures before the 1400s since most came from someones religion before that time people seem to forget that greek mythology as we call it today was a religion the same is true for all other "mythologies" without a religious context I would say there is no 1 source since there is a lot of variations in "vampire" stories. you also have to use a loose definition of the word vampire to any studies before the 1300s because the word did not exist before then at best the origin of the word has been traced in theory to a word that came into use at about the year 1000 but that is only a theory and that word comes from a religious context



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UpirLikhyj
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Wolvie,

The religious context of which you speak is one of the key evidences that explains why, prior to the advent of Christianity in Slavic lands, the "vampire" was not considered evil... much less an "undead" "fanged" bloodsucker. All of these vilifications occurred only after the success of Christianity as the dominant religion therein.

In fact, as obliquely referenced in your post, the first-ever written reference to the very term from whence the word "vampire" is directly derived, namely that of "Upir'," occurred in 1047 CE and referred to, ironically, an actual Eastern Orthodox Christian priest.

This would appear to strongly evidence two key facts:

1. As of 1047 CE, the term "vampire" ("Upir'") had not yet been vilified as something inherently evil, much less as having reference to someone either "undead" or a bloodsucker, both of which would have condemned this 1047 CE priest to excommunication at the least, if not actual execution for heresy and/or congress with the "Devil."

2. As would seem to be likewise indicated, thus in part validating the biblical "Book of Jude," these actual "vampires" of history had begun to inflitrate and number themselves among Christian communities in Asia Minor within 100 years of the death of the historical "Jesus" such that, by a 1,000 years later, they were well established therein. Of course these same evidences would more strongly indicate that they were Christians of a far more Gnostic variety and as hostlie to Roman Catholicism as that blatantly anti-sex and misogynist sect was to them. Thus it comes as no surprise that this priest, Upir' Likhyj, would have been of the Slavic / Eastern-Orthodox variety.

The question left completely unanswered by these historical facts is why those later vilified by Roman Catholicism as "vampires" would have so early desired to unite themselves with ... Christians?


- Upir'



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Wolvie
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I was referring more to the fact that most of the ancient references come from ancient religions that are now considered myths. That doesn't change the fact that they were once religions. A good portion of those did not discus whether the creatures were good or evil. In some cases they were gods and in some they were punishers of those that did wrong which did not necessarily make them evil. You are correct that most of the hideous evil connotations came about during the 1300s-1800s from "christian" involvement. Like many other things that have been done in the name of religion do not truly represent the religion no matter which religion it is. Just because someone calls them self a "insert your favorite religion here" doesn't make them one.



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UpirLikhyj
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Wolvie -

I, and vampire history, disagree.

While popular-culture reference tomes on "vampires" would have us believe otherwise, yet the fact remains that the only true vampire archetype is that coming from the Slavic countries. Thus, the only religion vilifying vampire mythology is... Christianity.

And before you begin citing those popular-culture references attempting to link any and every possible beliefs as somehow vampire related, let me quote yet again) from www.sanguinarius.org:

"Was it a supernatural being that drank blood? Then it's a 'type of vampire'! Was it something that came back from the grave? Then it's a 'type of vampire'! Was it an entity or revenant that was 'hungry' or that pestered the living for sex? Then it's a 'type of vampire'! Never mind that the individual cultures concerned had complex histories and belief systems to which these 'types of vampire' really belonged. They all got lumped together, and suddenly the word 'vampire' included at least half of the myths, legends, and folklore ever known on the planet."

As this well-reasoned argument continues, the result of such illogic is that basically anything from anywhere world-wide was ridiculously all lumped together as a type of "vampire":

"Child-killing demons, blood-drinking gods, hungry ancestor spirits, cannibalistic demons, fierce animal ghosts, night-hag entities, incubi/succubi, the restless dead, plague demons...these and many other very culture-specific beliefs, all with their own context and history, suddenly became part of the definition of 'vampire'." - ibid.

For this reason, this prolific vampire website concludes as also I have likewise argued so often here:

"These writers, and others, established the notion that 'every culture has a form of vampire belief', that 'vampires' were a universal, even archetypal human superstition, and that they were found world- and history-wide, buried in every body of myth, hidden in every holy book, lurking behind every fairy-tale.

"And of course, they were quite wrong!!!


- ibid. (no emphasis added)


Thus, again, the only religion in which the actual historical vampire (i.e. Slavic Vampire) was vilified was... Christianity.


- Upir'



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Artume
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05:46:00 Dec 09 2008
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Not to argue your point ~Upir~ but to verify it, what example facts do we have thus far that entertains the fact that "christianity" vilified the "only true" vampire (Slavic)?

I am sure we can all insert dates and regions in which these facts have basis, but in all actuality, is there significant proof to back these claims?

I do agree that an age old fact becomes legend which in turn over time becomes myth, but we are still I think, arguing the regions this source came from, without proper validation.

Where is it written anywhere within "christian" history that the vampire was vilified from them? Aside from the Kain presumptions? How does the Slavic vampire fit into christian association?



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Wolvie
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You say that the only true vampire is that from the slavic myths/folklore and that sanguinarius.org proves that but you are incorrect. here is the definition of a vampire they use and it does not include the slavic vampire:

"Vampire:
A much-disputed term with many meanings, depending upon whom you're talking to. See also the definitions of "sanguinarian", "blood-drinker", "blood fetishist", "psychic vampire", "Vampyre Lifestyler", and "Vampiric Community". Here, it is used to encompass all of the above-listed groups into a general category. Also, here, it is not used to define any of those as some sort of supernatural or superhuman beings or someone who has returned from the dead (excluding being revived by medical procedures), and so forth. Anyone who makes those sorts of claims is lying." - from sanguinarius terminology

The slavic vampire is folklore and sanguinarius.org does not deal in folklore as they clearly state:

"Sanguinarius does not deal with fiction, folklore, or role-playing games." - from sanguinarius introduction

now unless I misunderstood the title and original post of this thread it asks about ALL vampires which would include those of folklore, fiction & rpgs. I have not seen anything anywhere that says that sanguinarius.org is the accepted authority on what the definition of a vampire is. They choose to focus on what I shall call practicing vampires meaning someone that actively practices one or more of the terms mentioned in their definition of vampire. The Christian religion itself did not vilify anything about vampires there is no mention of vampires in the Christian bible. While some Christian followers may have that is not the same as the religion doing it. If you ask the average Christian today they will tell you that vampires are myth and or fiction. Since the word vampire did not exist before the 1300s it is difficult to say whether or not creatures from before that time would have been called that or not had the word existed then.

Now here is the definition of vampire used by VR that it got from a dictionary(a more accepted source than the sanguinarius.org site):

Definition of the Vampire
(Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1913 Edition)


Vampire (Page: 1593)

Vam"pire (?), n. [F. vampire (cf. It. vampiro, G. & D. vampir), fr. Servian vampir.] [Written also vampyre.]

The Vampire 1. A blood-sucking ghost; a soul of a dead person superstitiously believed to come from the grave and wander about by night sucking the blood of persons asleep, thus causing their death. This superstition is now prevalent in parts of Eastern Europe, and was especially current in Hungary about the year 1730.


2. Fig.: One who lives by preying on others; an extortioner; a bloodsucker.

3. (Zoöl.) Either one of two or more species of South American blood-sucking bats belonging to the genera Desmodus and Diphylla. These bats are destitute of molar teeth, but have strong, sharp cutting incisors with which they make punctured wounds from which they suck the blood of horses, cattle, and other animals, as well as man, chiefly during sleep. They have a caecal appendage to the stomach, in which the blood with which they gorge themselves is stored.

4. (Zoöl.) Any one of several species of harmless tropical American bats of the genus Vampyrus, especially V. spectrum. These bats feed upon insects and fruit, but were formerly erroneously supposed to suck the blood of man and animals. Called also false vampire. Vampire bat (Zoöl.), a vampire, Vampyrus spectrum

Very different from the sanguinarius.org definition. So it's all in how you want to define it. I could probably go to 100 more sites and find 100 more definitions. A lot of it depends on what the site wants to focus on.

The biggest constant in the definition of vampire is the drinking of blood. That is why today the term is used to cover a great many variety of things today. It is impossible to say which of the many definitions of the word vampire is correct. Depending on context they may all be correct



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Artume
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08:28:40 Dec 09 2008
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I would hardly depend on a website that depends on synonyms for lifestyle and or roleplay for valid information pertaining to any true or slavic vampire. Since the site "sanquinarious.org" is a well known "human living vampire" counterpart.

Now, if I understand this correctly about the site, does that not interpret into being a site dedicated to those of whom "adopt" the way of the vampire?

By quoting from a well known source that "adopts" the vampire, is it in a good way or a bad way that this site has been used? As well, what does the site have to do with the "origins" of the vampire? Aside from pointing out the obvious...



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UpirLikhyj
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Do racists or bigots of any sort admit to vilifiying the objects of their hatred? Come on... let's get real. If the only proof you will consider as valid is a written admission from Christian or Catholic authorities, then nothing I can provide you from history is going to convince you.

However for those with a brain (and I hope you are numbered with them), the historical facts of the vilification process led by, promoted by, and benefited by the Christian Church is glaringly obvious.

Think about it:

In 1047 CE, the first-recorded Vampire WAS a Christian Priest. Notice any changes since then? Hmmm?

Today and in direct violation of the facts of history, the Vampire has for several centuries been defined as the antithesis, the exact opposite, of the Christian Priest and everything he stands for. The Vampire today is... in fact... actually repelled by and killed via Christian symbols and/or Christian rites (not the symbols or rites of any other religion) and as administered by either Christian priests or men of strong Christian faith.

Damn straight it was Christianity that vilified the Vampire and has benefitted from such vilification ever since.


- Upir'




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UpirLikhyj
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08:47:28 Dec 09 2008
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Wolvie -

It's not sanguinarius.org that proves anything... nor did I say that it did. What I did say was that its argument against believing vampires to be found in almost every legend, holy book, and/or mythology worldwide is factual. And if you wish to argue against same, I welcome any such.

As for the definitions you list, they are definitions of the "vampire" as defined and characterized by fiction and popular culture... not as evident in the actual historical accounts.


- Upir'




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Wolvie
Wolvie
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10:08:10 Dec 09 2008
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"Today and in direct violation of the facts of history, the Vampire has for several centuries been defined as the antithesis, the exact opposite, of the Christian Priest and everything he stands for. The Vampire today is... in fact... actually repelled by and killed via Christian symbols and/or Christian rites (not the symbols or rites of any other religion) and as administered by either Christian priests or men of strong Christian faith."

A lot of that came about from works of fiction like the most popular one of all time "Dracula" - Brahm Stoker and i'm not saying that Christians did not play a role even those in authority, just that you can not blame the religion as a whole for what some of its members do. you also have to remember that during that time superstition and fear of the unknown were running extremely rampant.

As for the definitions I used the first was from the source you keep quoting so if you are saying that it is invalid then your claim about the first vampire would also have to be invalid. The second is a definition from a respected dictionary and that particular edition predates the majority of the current pop culture on vampires. Another thing a large percentage of vampires in modern pop culture are not repelled by religious symbols of any type.

OK back to the sanguinarius definition it includes "blood drinker" and here is what they say about that :

"Blood-Drinker:
Anyone who drinks blood, regardless of motivation."

That would include entire societies in some cases and all throughout history back thousands of years and would predate the vampire upir



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Artume
Artume
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10:32:18 Dec 09 2008
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Again, I ask from my previous post...Why are we so dependant on a site dedicated to the "human living vampire" for definitions pertaining to something that is factual history and not what society thinks a vampire is?

The "sanguanarious" is not the be all end all of any vampiric definition. Other sources please, I beg you.



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cadrewolf
cadrewolf
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21:10:36 Dec 09 2008
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I think the origin of vampire would not be ever found, many texts were never written down or if they were have vanished from the ages.

Many cultures hold the myths of vampires and even the early recorded cases i would say would have to be diputed. for they were written words of hear say and passed down from generation to generation fables.

so what is the source, lilith caine, (book of Nod) no
vlad much later, who is to know.



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VR System
VR System

No Longer Registered
21:10:36 Dec 09 2008
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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•  Closed by VR System on Dec 09 2008  •

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