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As we are upon holiday seasons worldwide that are characterized by love, holiness, gratitude, and giving, I thought a conversation here on the Dark Network might be interesting.

So many profiles here echo the concepts of "darkness" and expand them into constructs synonymous with that which is bad or evil. I have personally seen a lot of goodness here. I have even been the beneficiary of a good deal of it. So, here's the discussion point:

How do you resolve "darkness" with goodness? What are the "good" places in your life and how do you invest in goodness close to home and perhaps to the greater world good? A further question is, how do you feel about the association of goth/vampire with typically "negative" imagery and ideas?

Personally I think the association of Goth/Vampire with darkness and negativity is a bit of a stereotype. Some of the happiest brightest people I know sport black and frequent the horror section.

I also think that good must be contrasted by bad and that pure goodness would be as intolerable as pure evil.

As for me I try to live my life in a way that I won't feel like I have anything to be ashamed of if I should be questioned about it later. I try to do for the world what I hope it would do for me, and I try to keep my negativity on a leash.

That's just me, though.

Joli,

How to resolve the darkness with the good...

How do we as a body of people reconcile war with 'goodness'?

Is it because we believe, that we are convinced about the righteousness of that war?

Humanity is often faced with the prospect of doing just a little evil on order to achieve the 'greater good'. But is it justified? Can it ever be weighed between the benefit such action have for others, against the damage it does to our own 'soul' (that which is the essence of who we are)?

If we take away just a little bit of our goodness this one time, to help some others, we can live with it. Then the next time, and the next, until what do we have left in ourselves?

Might there come a point where we do so many 'little evils', that we lose sight of why we are doing them to begin with?

The darkness isn't inherently evil, nor are those people who appreciate it's beauty, it's allure. It is mystery, which can be frightening for those who rely upon the surety of knowledge, to understand their place and the nature of the world around them, and so it is demonised.

Just as the 'light' is not 'good' by nature, because it is just a thing and humanity places a morphology upon it, in order to better understand it, and to use it for a purpose. If that purpose is to propogate war in the name of goodness, how can it logically hold on to that definition?

Throughout the history of civilisation, religious society has used light and dark to conceptualise good and evil, with which to better serve the purposes of moral dictates, control over the population and defining punishment.

But is it fair to continue to apply those standards to what are just consequences of nature?

We see that in the news, kids with guns dressed as archetypal 'Goths' go on a killing rampage, but by the same token, an innocent young girl is beaten to death for having much the same appearance and association.

The negative perception is propogated by those violent people, but also, they become a target of the violent who reject that lifestyle. And violence doesn't simply end at physical assault. Alienation and ridicule are as harmful to a person's mentality and in the case of columbine, drove them to react in the most hateful manner.

While unaccaptable in behaviour, it is a case of reaping what is sown. In this, other innocent people are victimised and hurt, and the circle hate and mistrust widens and is reinforced.

The only solution is through education, at the youngest age, to accept other people for all their differences, to appreciate them even, rather than refuse them because they look, act and speak differently.

And there we make the differences in our lives and others by leading by example, by showing that we can be generous to those who would not appreciate it, by giving of ourselves without expectation of reward, and by letting other people be who they want to be, within the bounds of our ethical standard.

Good points about darkness and light not possessing meaning other than that which we assign to them. But, like it or not, the meanings are probably as old as mankind itself. Some of the traditions probably originate with prehistoric man coming to terms with the fear of that which he could not see in the night, the very real dangers that existed and often hunted him.

Here are a few lines from wikipedia that suggest, like it or not, the connotations of darkness are with us:

Darkness is a symbol of evil or mystery. It is the absence of light. Scientifically it is only possible to have a reduced amount of light. The emotional response to an absence of light has inspired metaphor in literature, symbolism in art, and emphasis
As a poetic term, darkness can also mean the presence of shadows, evil, or depression.

In the Bible, darkness was the second to last plague (Exodus 10:21) and the location of “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8:12)

The Qur’an has been interpreted to say that those who transgress the bounds of what is right are doomed to “burning despair and ice-cold darkness.” (Nab 78.25)

In Greek Mythology, three layers of night surround Tartarus, a place for the worst sinners as far beneath Hades as heaven is high above earth.

The Hindu goddess Kalí (black, dark colored) is also closely associated with darkness and violence, though she is equally associated with motherhood and benevolence.

In Chinese philosophy Yin is the feminine part of the Taijitu and is represented by a dark lobe.

Shakespeare, working in the 16th and 17th centuries, made a character call Satan the “prince of darkness” (King Lear: III, iv) and gave darkness jaws with which to devour love.

Dante described hell as “solid darkness stain’d.”

But also, I'd really like to know the ways in which we embrace that which we find to be "good." What is good in your life? How do you nurture it? And where (if at all) does your reach extend beyond your own backyard to sow goodness elsewhere?

Some seek cover from artificial brightness in shadows, or shade. Being critical people are commonly referred to as being, unenlightened (lacking illumination).

perhaps those that are not so "dear struck" by the seasonal bliss have an advantage over those who are.

Joli,

Do you perhaps feel then that as we have progressed scientifically and culturally, that the darkness no longer holds the same dominion over us as it once could?

As a result, while those ancient fears still resound in our behaviours, we are now more capable of overcoming them and as displayed here and elsewhere, embrace the dark things and know a sense of wonder within those places.



What is good in my life personally, is the ability to look to the past and learn from it, to not allow it to dictate to me, but to educate and enable me to offer educated advice and unconditional support to others who may be suffering a similar situation as I have.

The good is also apparent in the people whom I surround myself with, in the love and support which they offer to me, again unconditionally.

How do you resolve "darkness" with goodness?

By rejecting most of what I was taught re. the above, I've learned not to automatically equate darkness with evil, or goodness with light. The dark goddesses symbolized death, only one point in a continuing spiral. Their fearful aspect evolved later. My point is that rejecting old ideas is one step, the next is to educate yourself. It's a process that never ends.

This doesn't mean that I don't believe there are evil people out there. Some of them wear a mantle of goodness, and others embrace the turgid depths of their humanity. I try to avoid both categories of humanity in order to build a good place.

This consists of surrounding myself with people who are positive, optimistic and who think I'm terrific. Ha! Wish it were that easy. Let's just say that's my goal.
I've had teenagers and in-laws here for Thanksgiving. Nothing more dark or soul-wrenching than family.

As far as the Goth/ vampire stuff, I think we spend far too much time here discussing this. It's all lifestyle and derivative in some form or another. I personally would never want to be pigeonholed. Take what works from every aesthetic, philosophy, fiction or fantasy, but don't embrace it as a religion. That's a sure way to put barbed-wire around your brain.

Established religion knew that something exists in human nature that makes us more concerned for others during the cold season.

Watching people gather for community preparation of winter had to nudge them to alter dates in their religion to advance their image.

Noir Societies, and even satirical people keep the seasons commercial element in the public eye.

Hells Angels have a toy run. How about.

Goths for Tots?

I think many conclusions are made based on the idea of light/darkness and good/evil as absolutes. And while there are objective absolutes attributable to states of greater and lesser illumination, the concepts of evil/darkness and good/light are purely human-centric and present only a perspective.

I tend to think that many wars and bloody disagreements throughout history are waged over believing that one's own perceptions are more than a perception and are then looked upon as an absolute. One culture may be horrified at the torment, ruthlessness and calloused treatment of a certain group of people within that culture, and yet treat animals with no greater dignity or care. They see the other culture as bad, wrong or evil and themselves as good, right or enlightened. In reality there is little difference, saving their differing perspectives.

When I see such perceptions of good and evil taken as absolutes, I tend to ask for an example in which any war was not characterized by both sides seeing themselves as good and the other, evil. And yet the two sides remain at odds and most who look upon the engagement will choose a side with great haste and little analysis.

I tend to believe these perspectives exist in nearly every war so I cannot see any war as good or just. And when one stirs politics into the mix, I can only see the situation becoming worse and less justified. I fall back on the adage; "War is not a tool of politics. Every war is the failure of politics".

Darkness is characterized as bad, evil or wrong among many human cultures because we are human. And as humans we rely upon our sense of sight more than do most species. Being primarily diurnal, our vision in low light is quite lacking. So we feel extremely vulnerable. That vulnerability leads to fear and fear usually has some focal point, real or imagined. So "creatures of the night", become fearful as they have great potential to take advantage of our low-light vulnerability. Bats, cats, many insects, skunks, raccoons and foxes likely see night as a time of ingestive opportunity. They feel less vulnerable at night. So again, it's all about perspective.

I tend to be more comfortable at night because I can move around and feel less observed. Most people are home, asleep and not out where I tend to feel judged by them. It affords me some degree of privacy I don't feel under the glaring light of day. It thrusts harm upon no one and I make no victim of anyone. But those with a different perspective who prefer the daytime would likely view this with a degree of distrust. The eyes of law-enforcement, day-dwellers and the easily frightened, such behaviors are instantly suspect.

As for how I resolve darkness with goodness, I recognize that being drawn to the concealment of night does little to limit my ability or desire to render aid to others. I've sometimes been described as a "sucker" (as recently as last night), when attempting to help others and I have to admit that the moniker sometimes fits. Twice in the past few years I've offered significant monetary aid to co-workers who seemed to be in a difficult financial position. Both times it felt very good to be able to just give to others who seemed to be in need of help. Both times it resulted in feeling that I had misjudged character and the only good I was able to retain was the feeling that what I'd paid was perhaps worth the knowledge I'd gained.

I suppose I should admit that the more often this happens, the less I hold any confidence in the general graciousness and goodness of my fellow man. Most seem to have a snatch the money and run mentality. It seems they look to anyone attempting to help them as a "sucker" as well as do those who would not offer their help, even when more fully equipped to do so.

So I turn again to animals. Animals may run once freed from a fence, a trap or the wheel of a car. They may not turn, lick your hand and then make good their get-away. But at least I can see them a little more from their perspective and not feel quite so much like I'm dealing with an animal of higher capacity and greater ability to offer appreciation, who still chooses to grab any opportunity and run.

To me, the darkness is just a magnification for what the individual has inside their minds. When this magnification presents itself, with a bit of clarity, it is shown to be an reseptical for the thoughts flowing inside the mind.

When not magnified, these thoughts lead to depression or anger, basically an unhappy resolve. The structured venting cycle is by far the only way.

This darkness even though much of how one expresses it is programmed by those symbols that are depicted as dark, evil or sinister. Which is why the individual expressed the magnified ideals based on those symbols.

Karmic resolution would be the other side, which is the good. I use the voilet flame aspect as my guiding good. Though much of it is purely psychological, some of it is quite real. The karmic influence deals much in the presence of both dark and good. It is basically manifested when the balance between both is disrupted.

After the disruption, the individual may then choose to vent it out by the symbolic representation. Whichever way they choose, at least they vent it without voilent means. Which in turn leads into the belief that the good still has prevailed over the dark.

Some seeds find the darkness an excellent medium for growing.

Personally I have used what I perceive as my own inner darkness to measure my own growth.

History demonstrates that war is often the lesser of two evils.

History tends to be written by the victors. How much different might history be if simply written accurately?

Then I'll settle for recent history Beastt17.

Personally I also know a lot of good people on here. People are stereotyped always - just because people think goths are bad or suicidal or evil doesn't make it true.

People also think witches are bad and evil - but I am most definately not! I am the person who will stick her neck out to help another person no matter what they need. I am a member of the Salvation Army, I was a mentor for Americorps and I live in the projects now. I help the kids around here by giving them a place to talk about the crap in their lives with no worry of being judged. I help them find ways to work out their problems and believe in themselves. I do food drives and clothing drives, Toys for tots etc... even though I myself am currently unemployed trying to raise 2 kids alone (one of which graduates High School next summer and will be heading to college).

There are many ways we can help our fellow man - and most of the people I know on here do!

Happy Holidays to all!

To me being comfortable around those that have stations in undesired
roles.. addicts, Pathological people, geeks, and relating to them is a goal. when people want to impress others with who they are, they usually want people to just listen, as mentioned above, advising them, I hesitate to do, because if what is advised fails.. then it is the person that advised them to fault.

My habit of bringing crayons, and magazines to cut up to my drug dealers house is one thing I did to bring people together in shady social interactions.

A good pot dealer has an entertainment variety.

So the degree of darkness tends to test a persons comfort zone. people projecting, their darkness as a challenge to people that want to get to know them, or to simply relate. "If you like me.. then you will come into my shadow area.." I find that bringing a little light is usually appreciated.

Not with all of the evidence on the table, Sinora. If you include all of the details rather than the cleansed, filtered and purposeful, approved for public consumption information, recent history is as all history; two sides, each convinced they are good and the other evil. And in the vast majority of cases, both are blind to the manipulation under which they formed their opinions.

Dark is not evil. Light is not good. Most do what they do with cause and that cause is based on information which is rarely complete and never without an applied bias. It's the refusal to accept all of the evidence with equal prejudice which turns either side evil, despite their self-proclaimed agenda of "good".

Just because something has a good effect, like say violent crime going down, but then it is apparent that criminials are disappearing as well.

Noir theater captured the desperate struggle between behind closed doors,
And public images.

Shocking Dark People network, it is clear that dark peope feel for each other.. People who dwell in the shadows are not without a sense of social
Preservation, societys have charities correct? I know one that does.

Then I'll settle for all the evidence that is on the table, that after all is what people generally go by.

I am talking generally Beastt17.

I believe that dark and light, good and bad (evil) is a personal perception. Unfortunately everything here is dualistic and without this dichotomy one cannot recognize or label things that society decides to allow.

Each society decides for themselves what they think of as dark or negative but it is not a given that dark is exclusively something bad. The universe is made up of 96 percent dark energy and matter so if one were to think that we would have to assume that the universe is bad because it is mostly dark. Light arose from darkness. We need the light to see but the dark is restful. They both have their purpose and those who embrace the darker side tend to be very creative people and deep thinkers. They want to know what cannot readily be seen in the shadows and many times are trailblazers in writing, art, music and the list goes on. Not to say those who don't find darker things interesting aren't creative but I have found this to be of a high percentage because many are very philosophical and try to expand their mind and even in some cases their sensations. This has nothing to do with good or bad because just as with any person, people who are dark also help other people with fund raisers and the like. What we see is society looking down their noses on people they don't understand. I don't consider the vampire aesthetic synonymous with the Goth and they are two separate things but they have managed to coalesce to some degree amongst those of the younger generations who bicker over who is the real Goth and the same follows with the other group. Now that is what I see as bad and my view is live and let live.

for me, the darkness is more about mystery than evil. its about what is hidden, that which exists, but we are too blind to see.
as for the good, i try to help those that need help, enjoy the laughter of children, laugh alot myself (and often at myself), and ive those that i interact with something to smile about.

From my perspective, light and darkness are codependent of each other in both the literal and symbolic sense.

Without evil, we would have no moral conception of good. And likewise without darkness we have no concept of light.

My personal involvement in the Goth subculture is to show reverence to the dark as it allows for the existence of light in humanity.

I'm not sure but I think somewhere in there I read something about how much we owe to mass murderers, savage killers and violent pedophiles because it is only through their actions that we can appreciate the extreme good in others. Hopefully, I just didn't grasp the concept presented.

Otherwise, I'm going to have to think about that a while. It doesn't sound like a view I'd be quick to adopt.

Well Darkst always consume something.. either total our attention or cost us much with happenings and shaken us. while divinity of lightside always beneficial...

This is my personal experience.

darkness even some time make us cry too. Not necessary it be evil. even goodside darkness do the same with us. so why it is suggested that in practicing darkness we must learn balancing it first with the light.

we must be frequent celestial first in our subconscious.

but always if possible, to adopt goodside divinity of lighterside such as meditation.

Well, a good thing is teaching. But the things that I teach are vampyric :-P Well, vampyrism isn't necissarily evil... and by vampyrism I mean non-hollywood. Vampyres have a very strong and upheld moral code. And feeding is only when offered. Even so, psychic feeding may actually be healthy in some cases. This is because when we feed, we cycle the energy through the body, renewing it. Many of us to feed off negative energy, because that's the most attractive....
Just food for thought that not everything that seems evil really is.

To equate all darkness with bad and all positive with good I think is premature. I think that energy is energy
and with societies need to label and categorize to better understand what they do not understand is what is at play here. Here in VR I have found that many are "good" and still "dark". I think that what we need to realize is that classification is limiting our ability to just expierence on some level

To me, Dark and Light are nothing more than conditions caused by the relation of the sun, to your own particular location on planet Earth, and nothing more. They are very necessary however, to life on planet earth, being that if we existed in only one state, of total darkness or total light, life would end.

As for Good and Evil, they are man-made concepts used to give order and defination to human reality. We couldnt exist or function without those defining boundaries, without going insane.

My preference for the Dark in both a realistic sense and as a metaphor, is that in the dark it's easier to see light. If Light is a metaphor for Love, the ultimate Good, then the Dark is everything else that causes Love to become valued as something more precious than gold. It's what gives Love meaning.

As for how I feel about the negative associations...to be blunt, I think most of it is bluff and bluster. A kind of psychological warfare is being waged, between these individuals and society at large.

Society does not approve of them, outright rejects them, even victimizes them, so they adopt the tokens and symbols society makes it clear it fears, in order to keep society at bay. Considering what Society embraces as acceptable....well thats usually what makes me reject Society.

~looks embarrassed.~ Okay busted for not having read the whole thread before making my first response.

You asked: "But also, I'd really like to know the ways in which we embrace that which we find to be "good." What is good in your life? How do you nurture it? And where (if at all) does your reach extend beyond your own backyard to sow goodness elsewhere?"

Hell I dont even know where to begin to answer that question...Ive alot of things good in my life, but do I really wish to detail them online? My reach extends fairly close and pretty far. Mostly I try to get people to think and believe in themselves. To not limit themselves to relying on other people for protection or a self image, but to basically stand up for themselves. Believe in themselves. Thats something that once gained, cant be taken away from them easily.

i give to as many charitys as i can because the ones i give to have touched me somehow someway i give and give till i hurt my self but iam fortunate enough to bounce back for iam very resiliant

My reply is this to simply put it darkness has nothing to do with good or evil.......... I know the stigma that all things dark must certainly be evil and this is simply not the case... I consider myself a very dark person but Im about as far from evil as you can probably get... Darkness is where I fit its just my point of view I see the side of life that most are scared to admit is there.... Just because I believe that death is beautiful or wear all black or have faith in so called dark powers is not enough to dub me an evil being...... I do much good in my community and do my best to help others.. It is our actions alone that define good and evil and not a question of where we choose to rest our beliefs....

The only reason why you're getting "good" from a "dark" site such as VampireRave is because, well, nobody here is really dark and evil. I dare say, nobody here is a real vampire, warlock, or satan. A certain place which really has those beings certainly wouldn't be good at all.

We're all people here. People are good. Good is in the eyes of the beholder, and we "behold" ourselves as good most of the time.

Goths/Vampires kill people and destroy things, therefore they are not good.

i am who i am. if people cannot accept me for that then they can kick rocks. i do not personally believe in the concepts of good or evil, only light and dark. and no being is the epidome of either of them. all have both and it comes out in different times and places. that is why you would see kind things on this site, because we understand eachother (to a degree) and thus equals less quarrel. i personally despise the month of december and cannot wait for it to be over but i have obligations to the blood reletives that i was given and i suffer through it for their sake. i hope all could learn to do the same, even though we like to belive that the world we live in is all about us...

Very interesting argument Malice.... I find it very entertaining that you would even think to use the phrase "People are good"... Im sorry but that makes me laugh. Rape, Murder,Brutality,and a generally destructive nature toward one another,,this is what humanity has to offer....... Goths and vampyres are not responsible Mr.Malice.... We are not the Evil ones as I pointed out before...........

It's all about the stereotypes, not all darkness is evil and not all light is good. It is like seeing good and evil from a subjective point of view.
As for your question, all I do is building my personal morality and follow my instinct. I refuse to believe what I was taught and live my life the way I want to. I don't think I harm anyone, if someone is in need I help, I try to satay away from trouble, drama, gossip and mind my own business except when it's someone asking for help.

The original post asks:
How do you resolve "darkness" with goodness? What are the "good" places in your life and how do you invest in goodness close to home and perhaps to the greater world good? A further question is, how do you feel about the association of goth/vampire with typically "negative" imagery and ideas?

I reply:
I don't actually attempt to resolve the darkness with the goodness within myself. I do good things, but I'm not a good person - my actions do not actually define me, even though many people might think otherwise. There are many "good" places in my life: my home, my family, my friends, my job, my education, my pets, my interests. I invest in "goodness" by donating my time and my money where I think it can best be used. How do I feel about the association of goth/vampire with typically "negative" imagery and ideas? Every society has a "fall guy" - currently, ours is the goth/vampire culture. Why? Because fiction long portrayed vampires as dark, evil creatures. And, because society loves to label things. Who better to label negatively than that which is not fully understood by those not participating?

Further...

MaliceRaver states:
"Goths/vampires kill people and destroy things, therefore they are not good."

I state:

While I do not consider myself gothic, many others do because of my interests. I am, however, vampiric, going by the definition of one who needs to gather energy from external sources as I do not generate enough for myself. The many goths and/or vampires that I know, both offline and on, do not kill people or destroy things. That has to be one of the most asinine things I have seen uttered online since the internet was created, beyond even the claims of being thousands of years old or descended from Cain and/or Lilith - or of being created by Lestat.

When you state that no one here is a "real vampire, warlock, or Satan"...that is going to depend upon your definition. No, no one here is a real fictional vampire, but that's because that is fiction and this is reality. As for warlocks? Well, a warlock is an oathbreaker - I imagine there are millions of "warlocks" worldwide, not just on this site. As for Satan - why would such a glorious deity bother himself with this site? He has much more important things to do, what with enlightening the population of earth and bringing knowledge to so many.

"The only reason why you're getting "good" from a "dark" site such as VampireRave is because, well, nobody here is really dark and evil. I dare say, nobody here is a real vampire, warlock, or satan. A certain place which really has those beings certainly wouldn't be good at all. "

Dark, sure, evil...I have my doubts as I havent seen a huge amount of maliciousness going on here either.

"We're all people here. People are good. Good is in the eyes of the beholder, and we "behold" ourselves as good most of the time."

Speak for yourself lol. I dont consider myself good or evil, but I sure do have streaks of both when I want to.

"Goths/Vampires kill people and destroy things, therefore they are not good."

That's an extremely unjust thing to say. Especially since the so called "good people" according to most of the rest of the world, have killed billions in the names of their gods over the last 2 thousand years. I think you would find it difficult to argue as many as 50 deaths attributed to "Goths/Vampires" without including Vlad the Impaler or the Germanic Tribe the goth culture stole it's name from.

I think you do misinterpret my meaning, Beastt. What I meant was simply that there is a balance that must be respected.

As several people have noted, the terms "good" and "evil" are moral concepts developed by mankind and are highly subjective. The one thing they have in common is an idea of right and wrong. Although what is considered right or wrong differs greatly across people and across cultures, they are still governed by the idea of good/evil. Without having both the yin and the yang, the light and the dark, the human mind would have no concept of morality.

I think that the concepts of good and dark are often in the interpretation. Many times an item (say an art piece) will have an overall feel of good, while lurking in the image itself is darkness abound. Many things are stand alone good or dark, but many things hold both. The Last Supper by Da Vinci is a good example of this. The picture ultimately is considered to be a reflection of good, while in the painting are elements of darkness and mystery.
I think that often dark and good are found by a person's own focus. A "gothic" or dark person can be one of the most good people a person might know. A romanticized view of darkness is just an interest, while the person, themself, might be as bright as a butterfly.
I, myself often come off as a gloomy storm cloud, but I probably am one of the nicest people you could ever meet.

As far as goodness goes, I try to live my life by the "Golden Rule" (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you). I feel people should be treated equally, fairly, and well. It makes you feel good, it makes them feel good, and you, in return, feel good by them feeling good. To make a positive influence in someone's day is an amazing thing. I try to positively influence people's days as often as I can.

Besides, harboring darkness inside yourself against others is a waste of your own personal energies, and is very draining. That type of existence can whither a person to their very core.

But unfairly, it seems as if the worse of a person you are the further ahead in this world you get, and the longer you live. Too many good people are made to suffer and leave this world too early.

I have lived my life in the best way I can: Loving unconditionally, forgiving, giving second chances, being good to people who don't deserve it, being compassionate, having sympathy for each individual's own personal plight. I have found it to be extremely difficult to maintain a life in this way. It always seems as if the negative things in life try to destroy people who are good inherently, try to breing them down into the darkness.

I don't feel that darkness is the same darkness that is mentioned as say "gothic" interests. The darkness mentioned in the previous paragraph is the darkness that works against goodness, and not pertaining to interests.

Granted, there are people who go out of their way to destroy other people's lives, and I believe that those people have given into that darkness that works against goodness.

The way to keep yourself from being taken with that darkness is to stay firm in your beliefs in goodness. To remain morally or idealistically sound in the face of such darkness.

My goodness within the darkness is to be able to close bad chapters in my life and open new ones. Learning about myself and how I fit in this world is both goodness and darkness, I must battle my own demons in order to shine my light the brightest from within myself.

I am not quite sure what darkness has to do with good activities. It isn't a given that people who consider themselves dark and that is usually by the tastes they have in reading and lifestyle, are evil or negative. Therefore acts of what some view as goodness would not be exclusive to only certain groups. I don't think there is an actual connection. I think because we cannot see in the dark that over time, what we fear might be hiding in the darkness, has given the idea of negativity to anything perceived as dark and it is unequivocable. Anyone can do negative acts. It isn't a given that this pertains to any aesthetic.

Some one said this and don't remember who it was now:

"The Universe is actually bathed in radiation left over by the Big Bang, and if our eyes can see in microwave, there would be no darkness anywhere. The fact is that our eyes are very limited in terms of the range of wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation that they can detect. So the point I am making is that the absense of light is NOT necessarily "dark". It's just that we can't see all the different kinds of light that's there."

I think this has a lot to do with lack of knowledge. Ideas and interests that someone has not been subjected to either by upbringing or generation. It leaves a very skewed idea about things and is limiting. I think this is the same in that when darkness is connected to a person one cannot perceive the many other sides and views of the individual. They are stereotyped as being a certain type of person. It's an idea that stems from lack of having been exposed to others who are different in looks, views, etc.

Many I know endeavor to protect animals, write about what they perceive and experience and try to be conscientious about the planet. I don't see that one has anything to do with the other. I think the only place the idea of something being dark or evil comes from is organized religious viewpoints. It's a value judgment that people make. I am personally someone who wants to learn new things within a given interest range. If I can help others, family or friends I will do so. It generally won't have anything to do with darker interests but just interacting with the world at large.

In darkness, we all have to take care each other. we still family. The bond created by liking the same atmosphere, make us a Clan.

I have a hard time equating evil with darkness.
I can see why prehistoric man would since it provided such advantages to those creatures wanting to eat him. To this very day children see scary in the darkness, how many are afraid of the bad thing in the closet or under the bed that's only there in the dark? That's a subconscious fear left in us from way back I think.

The people here are not all dark and evil though some like to wear lots of black and others want folks to think they're bad guys. As humans we need the contact with others of our kind be it friends or family by blood or feelings, and when you get involved with others you have to give of yourself to some degree. You give friendship and love and in return you get the emotional and human contact you need.

There are too many folks here that do good things for others every day to even think of them as evil. As far as myself, I support a couple of charities that personally have meant something to me, American Cancer society and St Jude's Hospital. There are too many for anyone to pick only one but these two are the ones I give to first. Am I dark? No but neither am I light but instead a creature of both in varying degrees.

With me i have seen a lot of darkness to really have any good in my life. I do have some good in my life but the dark part of my life shows a little bit more. I surround myself with people that I know will brighten my day when I can't brighten my own. The good places in my life are being around people i know and love and being with them as long as possible. Also being in school (i know that sounds weird but i've always liked school and learning new things. Life overall teaches you things as well) and hanging with friends. The goth/vampyre association with negative is very underrated and misunderstood. There are goth people that are very good people but because of the way goth people have been stereotyped non-goth people take goth people the wrong way and percieve them wrong. People think dark clothing, makeup things like that overall negativity when they think of goth when they subconcously sterotype them for what they may not be.

"The only reason why you're getting "good" from a "dark" site such as VampireRave is because, well, nobody here is really dark and evil. I dare say, nobody here is a real vampire, warlock, or satan. A certain place which really has those beings certainly wouldn't be good at all. "

"nobody here is really dark and evil"

ha! what am i? scots mist? lol
honesty really isn't the best policy since people either think you are joking or simply don't believe you.

anyway back to the matter at hand.

its true that Darkness and light isn't always evil and good but humanity fears what they don't understand and what they fear,they hate and what they hate,they seek to destroy.

I consider the linking of goth and vampire to something dark and negative to be almost ignorant. Of the people I know who would identify themselves as either one of these things, not a single one of them would say that it was really a darkness. They are all incredibly positive and loving people.

It confuses me sometimes when I am flipping through the profiles on here and I see so many hateful things being written. I have started to believe that the whole community is split up into seperate parts and that I am in the sunny goth portion of it:D

If this seems rambly, I apologise. My brain is not terribly active today, but I hope I got the point across.

Well I have experienced one dark good.

once i was finding stiffness and tried one relaxing exercise which lighte side call their exercise but it is dark nature. and in that relaxing exercise I used few steps of shavasana to relax my body and instead of gazing on center focal point in close eyelids, I visualised that I am floating on water, woo i saw i am flowing in gigantic flow of water mixed in aura...

i was flowing in that flow, my body was flowing in water and i was finding my stiffness went and drowsy stiffness of mind melted... yet i was flowing... it was so bliss... then after 15-20 minutes I saw one person came there it was foggy and in white... his cloak was white same colour of fog... he picked me took to his chest and my head was layed on his shoulder... it was even pleasurus coz it was messaging my body by accupressure ofhis gentle arms and chest... I was kid... he did place me to one gigantic pole... he stood and the fire was lit around us in that airy weather the fire was around us and the fire was very refreshing I loved that and after few miute of bathe in fire, I opened eyes, I was most fresh and full of fresh energy.

very interesting topic i have no words to describe my opinion at the moment on this topic need more thought

(Bows)
Honorable Nightgames,

there are truelydark exercises if used per what we crave for, lead us really to darkness and lock us in subconsciousness. once the person is locked in subconsciousness, then it dark life start with awaken subtle... and its all bad period for that person. coz subtle hapenings atthe time of gross conscious active mind with active body and nerve tree make us drown to very deepst to the darkness and we cut from other word and stay in loneliness and dark. thats why the balance of darkness with light is suggested.

the dark good is healing with reiki and hypnotizm and distant hypnotizm. these acts too are dark and divine...
this above is the clearcut dark good

and even few center focal point exercises too to avoid the darkness impact to fall in depression, it is suggested to have mentor better instead f doing those exercise on alone co literature can give only knowledge to do but the montor knows the turning phases and the acts that time and direction too. As far I knows the darkness as para-psychic happenings and high psychic darkness though may they are good side divine. play of energy and conscious is not at all the lighter side. lighter side is only the vision with inner lightness

I feel that associating goth/dark with evil or negativity is a stereotype and I am a person that welcomes another persons freedom of expression. I don't condemn others just because they look different.

I live my life two different ways....the person I am at work does their job to make a living and pay the bills at home to support her family. The person I am home is totally different because I am on "my time." I listen to heavy metal music, watch horror flicks, and watch sports. I am female, not male and most would try to put a label on me. I don't like labels....except those on my food products so I can get some sort of idea of what I am buying though I am still questioning what it is we are actually buying... :)

Be yourself!!!!

I have a very simple response...."Vampire Rave" vs say MySpace. You get a whole lot more positive, joyful welcome here...outside "mainstream"..In the dark LOL. I think that sums it up. "Dark" can be a stereotype or an automatic key to negative connotation....by those who are small minded, and dont take the time to get to know you. I'm sure you can relate to many of the negative first impressions I have persecuted by...because of stereotype. Once they got to know me, they've learned I have a lot of positive energy to share.

I am only here to fight also in the final battle. My dark side can help .. whatever people wish to do after the appearance of the anti christ is simply up to them .. in that way I guess there is good in the dark.

who is to say darkness isnt good?

if you find yourself readin in the occult culture you will not come across anythign that speaks of darkness as being bad or evil,in fact the only places that speak of it are the book religions but then they well most tend to be hypocrits anyways.

i full heartedly welcome darkness and have never thought of it being something other than good for me.

There can be no dark without light, or light without dark. One simply cannot exist without the other. Acceptance of both creates a complete being, bringing true balance. The very universe is based on duality. I think some people fear the darker side of their natures, so they can be excepted by mainstream society, they shy away from anything "unacceptable". I myself don't judge goth or any other practices as "dark". I don't allign good with light or dark with evil. There is some in both! When one accepts the duality, it opens every door!

Ok, while admittedly reading the longer threads, I think I get the general gist of this thread. But I now have a question.

In regards to "Dark" and "Good", everything as we know it has a balance, yes. But... no matter what, isn't it what's in our hearts, our minds and our intents that truly define the difference of what's "Dark" or what's "Good"?

I've known even the most kindest people to have a dark side, and visa-versa. So really isn't it up for interpretation of the individual both as a an individual and as one who stands "witness"????

This is a great thread Joli.Thanks for starting it.

Good and evil/light and dark.As far as I can tell,it can come down to culture and language somewhat as we are a culture of symetrycal opposites.Light/dark,good /evil,hot/cold,black/white etc..
But what we seem to overlook are the so called grey areas,everything in the middle.As stated above,most have good and evil in us.If you would really call it that because,while I've seen some pretty bad things,I really think true evil in a person isnt as prevelant as it might seem.It takes alot more than spooky pix or a sad poem to make evil.I could go on about that,but dont have much time.
Pretaining to the other part of your question,I know that my life is very good.So much so,in fact,I feel guilty about it sometimes when I hear how rough others have it on a day to day basis.Personally,I nurture what I feel is good by trying to share that in some way..do good things and treating others how I like to be treated.Even if it is only one thing day or something,a kind word,a smile...no matter how minute.
Sometimes one cant always be as nice as we would like to,but you can get lucky in that too when you can turn a bad situation into a good one.
Most of all,I think we need to be forgiving and set pride aside.That for me has done wonders.
I think the whole Goth culture gets a bad wrap because the dark clothing,what some might call strange or scary makeup,and the over all goth love of the night and other things related.
this question of yours certainly provokes thought,and hopefully I can get on again to post more.

the yin to Yang. balance Joli.
without one there cannot be the other.

as to the goth bit.. well, I like that it reflects the side of me that isn't light, as simple as that.

but then, as usual, I'm just speaking for me.

Also,I wanted to share this with you.It is an exerpt from the unspoken bible..

The battle between good and evil in the Bible comes from a superstitious fear of darkness.

Modern believers perceive God as an invisible being but don't know what to make of Satan because they refuse to believe he is a god. This view is problematic because biblical and pagan literature symbolized light with the good gods and darkness with the bad gods. The point is to show that God is not a supernatural deity and Satan a non-godly supernatural creature. God is merely an allegorical interpretation of the sun, and Satan is its antithesis.

For example, Jesus is sometimes called the Son of God because he is implicitly associated with the Sun of God. (See Gospel Zodiac) He was the equivalent of the Egyptian God Horus and a host of other pagan supreme gods. In early Christian art, for example, Jesus is sometimes depicted with a halo which symbolizes the sun's corona.

Darkness, and its association with evil, existed before creation. When god created light, he created the fire element and separated it from the non-elemental darkness. (See "In the Beginning".) He called the light "good", but he did not pronounce the darkness "good" because he didn't create it-so by default, it was evil. This accounts for the supposition that God is "good".

Not bad associations Oceanne, but if you look even further into the historical thesis that has accummulated over time, and purposely reference the Vangello Delle Streghe, it tells of PRIMEVAL DEITY. One, She, that existed before the first beginning, as CHAOS -God without form existing in a void, and having within Herself the seeds of all things, both spiritual and material, all mixed up together without order or definition. Primeval Deity is androgynous, having both feminine (spirit or yin) and masculine (matter or yang) elements, and is sometimes portrayed as such in myth and artwork.. Sometimes however Primeval Deity is portrayed as feminine, since we think of Primeval Deity in association with the Goddess, or Spirit -indeed as the Higher Self of Goddess. In this sense Primeval Deity is identified with the CRONE Goddess -the Goddess in Her aged state, having existed from before the dawn of time. This is the wisest and most knowing part of Goddess, most commonly called HEKATE. This is the Goddess portrayed with greater or lesser respect as the Hallowe’en witch, with Her pointed hat and broom.

For endless aeons Primeval Deity existed in this amorphous and undifferentiated state, in the darkness before the first creation.

But over the course of time, Primeval Deity began to stir; to become aware. First becoming aware of their (Her) own existence. In time She began to think, to dream, to question -to desire.

And so for aeons Primeval Deity thought, and considered, and wondered. And then it goes on to say that;

“Out of Herself, the first Darkness, She divided Herself. Into Darkness and Light She was divided. The God, Her brother and son, Herself and Her other Self, was the Light.”

Primeval Deity divided Herself -One became Two.

All of the physical, tangible, volatile parts of Primeval Deity went into the God, who was the Light. The God exploded into existence out of Primeval Deity in a shower of spark and flame which we remember as the Big Bang, the starting point of physical creation.

All of the spiritual, ethereal, eternal parts of Primeval Deity remained in the Goddess. In this sense Goddess is thought of as a continuation of Primeval Deity, since the consciousness of Primeval Deity is one of the Spiritual parts that remained with Her.

And the God spread out in all directions through the primordial void, a blaze of light and superheated matter. In time His fire would cool into stars, and from stars to Planets. As this happens the vibration of the matter slows, it becomes more dense, seemingly solid.

This slowing cooling, and solidifying, is described as “Falling into Matter.” Symbolically the God is described as having fallen into Seven Planes of existence. Some people say there are more, but then the divisions are not as exact as all that, so the number is not so important as the concept. Seven Planes is the ancient number, based on the idea of the seven Ptolemaic Planets (that is, the Sun, Moon, and those Planets visible with the naked eye). These Seven Planes are, from the lowest up; Physical, Emotional, Mental, Astral, Soular or Egoic, Monadic, and Divine. We will talk more about these later. The Seven Planes are also sometimes called the Seven Spheres, or the Seven Dimensions; all refer to the same basic concept.

You can research more about the Vangelo delle Streghe HERE

Yes,I am aware of that concept,thank you for posting it .Im not saying that I go for one or the other though,mainly because I am hesitant to make a final decision on it.Main thing for me is to follow a set of ruels which I feel benefit us as opposed to being detrimental.

Could the darkness within ones persona be there just for the sake of the "peer" mentality? To fit into ones surroundings, or if one does not fit in, they consider themselves of a "darker" nature mayhaps?

Something to ponder.

I think the release of darkness from one is there time to release stress and envy, as for the lightness of someone,most i see is just people puting on a front until the darkness comes around again.

Beast 117 ..how on Earth can you say that we need these individuals to know who we are.

I do not need a serial killer in this world, to know that killing another is wrong.

Just.. doesn't make sense.