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I am sure this may have been discussed here before at length, but I have not seen it if it was. So here goes...

What do people think of the practice of Siring or Mentoring? Has it just gone out of style? Are there just no worthy teachers out there? Do you think you need a formal Embrace or Initiation to be recognized in vampyre society? Is having someone to mentor you one on one beneficial? Any other thoughts on the subject?

No, I an NOT looking for a Sire or Underlings. This is not for recruiting! And this is with the assumtion that we are talking about the modern living vampyre here, and not the undead. Obviously.

i believe self discovery is the best thing for individuals to do in most cases but there comes a time when such an individual wishes to be sired/mentored by one with more experience and wisdom and although there are alot who can teach i feel that it is important to find some who can walk the talk and just not preach what they believe to be right.

I think it is a case of personal choice.

I find that listening and reading are enough of a wake up call for me, others may differ.

i personally feel it is a concious effort when one chooses to search and find a mentor/teacher that they want to advance in their studies of gaining more knowledge than they are able to find by their own selves and thats why we have covens/houses in such societies so individuals with a stronger taste of learning can seek from fellow peers instead of just being on their own left in the dark.

it is most often a good thing to have a guide when learning something new, helps to make the mistakes fewer and and juorney more favorable.

I think for most the use of a mentor would be a great help but there are some who simply learn better at their own pace and in their own style. A mentor, for those would be like having a guard.

I learn better on my own, and i think that is the best way to learn something, because their is to much false information going around and a person does not really know who they can believe...

Greetings...

It is all a matter of choice,
again, it varies from vampyre to vampyre,
and sometimes having a mentor may be very useful...
not to prevent us from making mistakes, for we all have to err and learn from those errors,
but to walk by our side along the way and let us go when they feel we are ready....

I am better at learning on my own...always have, though I had a mentor, and it was an interesting experience...

Lord Markus

Sires, to me seem more like a role play term. Mentors and teachers are something more I think is in the real vampire realm.I personally am mentoring 3 who are in the process of awakening.
2 of the individuals I have been helping for 2 yrs. now and the 3rd person is fairly new in his awakening.
I think it depends on where one goes and hangs out in the forums.As to if mentoring is a thing of the past or not. Many, many of the older forums have members who have been mentoring for over 10 yrss and longer. and it is still very much done and encouraged.It all depends on what kind of forum one goes to ie: chat rooms to just flirt and hangout or members who wish to contribute to the vampire community by providing information and counceling to new members.

I would agree that having a Mentor would be most benificial to some, however at the same time there is only so far that one can go on anothers path. It also seems to need a pointing out, that what we have here is also someone who can show by example but also giving the student/seeker the means to discover for themselves. It then also comes to point that those who had the fortune of being formally trained, look down on those who are not. And for those that are not formally trained, are left with out the resource of having equal conversations of both the mentor caste and seeker, comparing note. Simply because the individual does both, and it seems that it is a forgotten point when discussions about should there be more teachers and students.

All life is but a place to study, there is always something to research, and there are always new voids to cross in seeking power, or your hearts desire. No one has all the answers, all they have is what worked for them. Which seems to be forgotten, when you get down to the real world perceptions of how mentors and their students treat others of paths they walked in the shadows alone.

Let people learn from themselves, come together and study for a time, and if the studies are over, and they need to go on their separate ways, then may they walk the paths that bring them closer to their true way.

Simple thoughts from your resident infernalist.

Perhaps something that puts people off seeking a mentor is the fact that we all learn at different rates.

I myself am slow to learn or understand new ideas sometimes.....I get there in the end just takes a bit more time lol

it´s true that personal search is valuable, but when you enter in something that needs more knowledge, it´s good to have someone giving you guidance... not giving you a path, but at least preparing you for the things you need to know...

well....i think that you have to figure out what your new purpose in life is and the sire or mentor is there to help you learn what you need to do to accomplish such a task

teachers are good and so are sires they can be your friend or enemy it is up to you

I am a teacher. That is what I do. I have always felt that to be fully aware of anything you must have all the facts. If this means that you need a teacher or guide, fine. If not, that is good as well. There is no one way to learn this type of subject any more than there is about any other.

I was always more or less on my own when it came to the vampyre culture. All I had to go on was the literature of people like Michelle Belanger (wrote The Psychic Vampire Codex) and what I could find out there on the Web.

I was only recently that I found someone willing to help me better understand myself and the world in which I subject myself to. And I have found that having that Mentor there, answering the many questions I do have, is far more beneficial than when I was discovering things on my own.

I do not think that there are a lack of good people who are willing to help, and to teach. Nor do I feel like Mentoring has gone out of style. It's more or a personal choice, as stated before. Some will thrive when left to their own devices, while others need a little push into the right direction.

I too was alone and on my own for awhile, still am in a way but learns alot from others point of views, listening, watching and such..i have found Ones who help me out alot and i have a Mentor as well..I am still a loner in some ways, hard to trust but met some cool ppl here at VR and made a few lasting friendships

It's not so much that the concept of sires has "gone out of fashion" so much as these concepts are related almsot exclusively to RPG and people who are looking to gain notoriety or profit in the vampire community.

no, none of these things are needed. if you are a vampire, you are a vampire. no formal embrace is needed, required, or should even be sought after; especially from a stranger! this is one of the topics where rpg tends to blend in too much with reality.

like i said before it is a personal decision i find myself that everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon at times wanting to be a mentor even when they yet to learn the basics i would choose wisely who one picks for such a task.

ChartreuseDreams, I understand what you are saying.And true some do it as a form of popularity contest or to get sort of gain from it.
But the people who have come to me over the years, really did and still do need some sort of help or just support.
I know it depends on the person of course ,but I was glad I met my awakener when I did.And I still ask him questions.It's nice to have some sort of security blanket.

I would say that the idea of sireing or a mentor is out dated though that is not to say I am not in support of it I believe it comes down to personal choice, I personally would choose to have a mentor others may not.

For those who are looking for a mentor or sire, the actual process will be completely up to the individual. Many learn very well as there are also many who learn on an individual path. There is no correct method, but both are effective.

I think most people have just opted to announce what they believe to be self evident. They feel that they have discovered their nature and don't need or can't find someone to formalize their new 'incarnation'.

Perhaps that's why so many are now coming forward with wilder and stranger tales of being part angel, part dragon, part vampire, part wolf and part demon all rolled into one 16 year old angst ridden 'darke chylde'. No one is there to tell them to take it easy and it would seem that if left to their own devices, the line between self discovery and self deception is very fine indeed. Fantasy makes a move against reality and self delusion works it's weary web.

So this follows into the next line of thought which is, RPGs aside, what are people's thoughts on having a mentor or perhaps "sponsor" is a better word, someone who introduces the newly Awakened around to vampyre society? How are those who come into the scene or show up at Court without a Sire or sponsor viewed in comparison with those who follow the more traditional introduction that one gets with a mentor?

And another question...What qualifies a person to be a Sire, mentor, or teacher? Is it just their being recognized as such by a Prince (for those who still go along with the traditionalist side of things)? Or is there some sort of ethical code or set of knowledge/skills that makes one a worthy teacher?

wow...this may be a whole other thread....

There's always avenues for learning and some people teach better than others and yes I do believe that there are some good teachers as well as students that are willing to learn "good students". It's your own personal choice. No I don't think that this can ever go out of style.

some will search others wont, it all depends on what they really search guidance? wisdom? teaching? support? This all makes the difference as to if they search or not, for a mentor, or a Sire, its more a personal choice then a "thing to do", it all depends on the individual

i think if one does go the route of having a mentor/teacher that they should first realy look into their teachings and see how reliable they are and are they willing to help you on your path and if so how long will they mentor you for.

I am hearing a lot of people saying that you need another person to guide you on your way, i dont think that is true their are lots of people who never got help from anyone who created or learned great things by doing it on their own, or learning on their own. Yes it may be easy to get someone to teach you certain things but it would be better to learn them on your own if you can...

I think that it is always good to have someone to help guide you or to turn to if you need help or advice, yet trial and error is always a good life lesson also.

Depends on the individual really.

Having mentors, teachers and guides for life and belief is important but of course we should all have the sense of self and the sense of reality to know whether you're being led or misled. Learn as much as you can and even from conflicting views on what you think might be, so that you can make an 'informed choice' about anything important to you. This is how you keep from being someone else's tool or from simply deceiving yourself with someone willing to help you do it.

I don’t normally teach, however I have just started again. It is more fun to travel the path for yourself, so I guide and monitor your path you chose. I do see the instant gratification magic very popular … I teach the golden dawn ritual, chaos and astral.
I have to say im into much deeper stuff myself and doing heavy time consuming work.
Instant gratification doesn’t cut it any more for me.

I feel that if you have someone you look up to and they know more than you about vampyrism then ask questions.... in a way they will be a mentor and in another they are just a friend.... I have never had a mentor but I did have a friend who opened my eyes to the modern vampyre community.... it helped me to decide if I was a vamp or wiccan.... odd I know but I discovered what I was looking for.... In a previous post (one of the first accually) the statement of Self discovery was mentioned.... There doesn't have to be one or more people as a mentor, sire, etc. for the traditions to be passed on......

I think that having someone to guide you is always a great thing and they are there when you might hit those bumps in the road and stumble, they can help you figure out what the best path for you will be.

It would be wonderful to have a guide. But one who tells you what he sees when he looks into your palm, or reads your cards, or tells you that he knows whats coming on your path....these things would be nice to know. If I cant see them, and someone else does, WTF will no one tell me?

the idea of having a mentor is good but i feel in general has some drawbacks that the student will depend to much on them and not seek out the truths on their own.

Mentoring is very important. You start out with no knowlege when born. You learn lessons in life as you grow. Without someone to teach and guide you, you may not learn from them. It's this way if you're born at the age of 30 into a new belief, practice, etc.

Having someone to help you is always nice but no I don't think you really need one since now we have the internet and sites like things that can help you figure things out on your own. There is still that warm feeling about someone "Sireing or Embracing" a person that I'm sure can make people feel comfortable.
I'm sure many people still do it for that romantic or friendship feeling that some one just gave you this gift. Like others said it is an individual thing on what you want.

Who needs a Sire when you've got vampire rave! lol.... my "sire" is the one who pointed me in this direction, and i've learned more here, than I have from him :)

To further this discussion...

For all those who say that a Sire/Mentor/Teacher is not necessary for learning (okay, agreed), how many of you take part actively in actual face to face vampire society (not just online) such as Courts, covens, houses, quarums, or even just at clubs? And for anyone, how do you think that your having or lacking a Sire (etc) may have effected your introduction to or place in vampire society? If at all?

i feel that if one does choose to sire or mentor one with less knowledge that their should be some kind of guidelines and some order of how they teach their student rather than just laying all the information out there at once in a whole.

So what happens if a mentor takes on a student and then they end up not teaching them what they should? There is an old tradition that says that once you have been chosen by a Sire, no other Sire may teach you, not even years later. Basically you get one shot to make it or you are out forever. Any thoughts on this concept?

I think that it depends. I was "awoken" so to speak, by a friend of mine who was also a vampire. He taught me how to feed without draining someone too much (he was mostly a psychic vamp), he also helped me to understand what a living vamp was and what we are not. So it helped for me to have someone who was already knowledgable to guide me. For others though, it may be different, some people prefer to learn on thier own. To each his own I guess.

I think the idea of staying screwed because you have a sucky Sire and aren't allowed to learn from anyone else is birdbrained. I think there should come a time when people act like adults and step out of the role of follower. That is what so many people in this 'community' claim to believe... yet there's nothing different here than anywhere else.

You might think you are out of the mainstream- maybe right... just a different 'stream' though.... stream nonetheless.

I like to teach myself but mentors and sires can be a good thing

I would say that having a Mentor would be most benificial to some.

I agree with the first thing that BloodxCreep said. As with most forum posts, I try not to read others' responses when I first give my opinion so that my own would not get jaded. However I do agree that one's self-discovery is an important first step in the mentoring process.

With the vampyre society the best way to learn is through your own research, whether the information comes from books or websites like VR. Once you have an idea of the basics of what you want to learn, that would be the time to seek out a Mentor who would be willing to help you expand your knowledge and also be patient with you while you're getting used to the new lifestyle.

um I have been sired and I am a sire to a few even thought I dont keep in touch with them anymore due tothe fact they live like far away know. But i belive it's a wonderful thing to take some one under your wing and teach them what you know

i think teachers never go out of style in fact i not only teach but am apt to learn from all of my kind thoes who say they know all are lyers and should be disregarded as far as the term sire goes it is a fancey tearm that alot of rprs use ergo it is slightly outdated in moderen terms

it would be nice, self discovery happens after or while one is taught, it's difference of opinion upon one subject as is anything.

It all depends on the person to be honest. I think those that wish it and want it should be able to get it readily. And those that want to experience and figure out on their own should. I think its around, just hardly practiced anymore because everyone wants to find out on their own because more and more people are just doing the same as the people they've seen do it. If that even makes sense. I know what I'm trying to say but I don't think the wording is coming out correctly.

Its mostly learning from those that you believe are the most likely to be a real vamp and not just another one of the millions of wannabe vampires. http://oldworldvampires.50webs.com is a good website.

the more help the more you learn ot depends on the mentor

I think it depends on the person some people or vampires like to have that teacher and mentiors to teach them the ropes on how to get everything done that needs to done on hand. Others like myself prefer to learn on my own and learn from my own mistakes as well as the mistakes of others.

depends on how you look at it. i think that finding a sire or mentor that will suit you is probably the hardest. you must first discover yourself and know what it is you are looking for in order to find that person to help guide you. Once you find the Person/sire/mentor i would think it takes a long while of getting to know each other before you can be guided. thats my opinion though. i think that it probably has changed over the centuries and it would take serious thought and searching.

Siring is an interesting concept to me.

The idea that a new vampire is bound to the one that created them seems to be a mechanism of survival.

A creature as long lived as a vampire seeks power... and what self-respecting vampire would risk siring one that could become more powerful... without Insurance?

There is one concept of vampirism i hate extremely. Its the idea that you sire someone and effectly become there "master" Its such a ridiculios thing. not to mention selfish. The taking of someones life just to serve you? That would appeal to peope who have problems attaining power i'm sure. But hell, no thank you.

I'm more for the idea of "Testing" someone before you sire them. I mean you wouldent want someone who wont play to the rules right?

Initiation Into groups would be the best way to go about things. Then you can catch the accidents and get rid of them or something.

I smile upon teachers. I don't think they'll ever "go out of style", or if they go "out of style" then they'll still be useful. It's much harder to learn by yourself. I much prefer learning through a worthy source of information...I have a teacher who tells me anything I need to know and I trust the information...
I also teach what I can, what I know, to people who ask me.

But to a breed that have always been hunted, or would be if known to exist.... power is everything and a vampire would not risk making another unless they could control that power

Personally, I think that it is a good thing to learn from the elders.... to learn the ways of whats come before us..... not just in this scenario, but in day to day life.... if we did not have mentors, then we would never know things of the past, etc.

I am a mentor to a handful, but I do not know about Siring.

I would think that a person would want to learn things on their own, to me it is more fulfilling to learn things on my own than it is to learn from another person, so i do not really think sires, mentors or teachers are necessary atleast when it come to learning...

I think having a mentor would be great, I have been here almost a year and still have trouble with html ( and don't get it) and could use the help.

"Sire" is an old Traditionlist term, meaning one's mentor or the one who brought about their Awakening or intruduced them into vampiric circles. Mentor or Teacher seem like more fiting words these days because of the "Mastery" the word Sire implies that the Elder would hold over the newcomer. In my case my "Sire" was a close friend, an equal in most things except that he had a clue that I did not. It was good to have a guide and companion on a dark road.

I see certain Orders that consider that if one is not ritually Sired (Initiated) into their group, that one's earlier Awakening does not "count." Personally I find this ludicrous, but I am more concerend in this entire thread with what the accepted norms are for the vampire population at large. Personal opinions are what make up those "tradtitions", in concensus over time.

I had a elder to help me but part of his trwining was for me to learn myself.Now the why some are acting i think i teacher would be nice to have.

finding/being a mentor is so critical in the vampiric society

It is a good thing to Learn on ones Own as through mistakes You can become even better then before and not do them again but a Good Guide can help You along Your journey assist You in the choices and point You down a safe path .. of course it is up to You to choose it But i do think a good guide is needed or should be used

I have to agree with Callia. It is good to learn on your own but it is also good to have a mentor.

I have been a mentor and a tutor for many college courses. I would think that counts. I think everyone needs a mentor at one time or another, and for whatever reason. We may not have one psychically, but we might copy a philosophy of someone we admire or really like. Looking up to someone is a good thing. As far as what people are into here; some may want a "teacher." I think that there are many good ones out there.

My beliefe is that going through something fully on your own leads to more satisfaction then if you were to be lead the whole way

its always to have some one to lean on when questions arive when not understood.. .. if there isnt some one for that particuler. then you go on your own and play the guessing game or do alot of reading on the subject..

I think having a mentor by your side is having guidance with you, but also reading and gaining knowledge by yourself will help you to be independent and reliable to your own self. You or I can’t really trust anything or anyone anymore for real and true information. But that is just how learned though.

I think it is a case of personal choice.

i think mentoring is for those that are not self-aware enough to figure it out for themselves, or have no previous awareness/attachment to the occutl, magick, or various subcultures.

i say it's personal choice.

Speaking for myself only.. I do best when trying to learn on my own.
I like knowing of places to go to ask for information.. and to whom to ask that information is a key skill that one gains as they travel the life journey.
I do not do well under strict guidance...
Nor do I often appreciate rules of others...
I do when in Rome you know.. but what rome doesn't know.. doesn't usually injury it.


smiles.

I think it is a case of personal choice.. which im glad to have..

Study and self-awareness is a good start, but there's a long tradition of mentoring that has worked for many.

Never hurts to bounce ideas off someone.

In tennis, you always try to play against a better player to sharpen your game.

I think that it is self choice
Though self awerness is better sometimes it is nice to have some for advice.
But learning an teaching ones self is important as well

the use of a sire,mentor or teacher would be a great thing so ya could learn the right way.and not do anything wrong.

one must find inner streanth. and they also may be helped along by a master vampire, or a sire, but, not found by them.

I believe that you have to be an individual, and take care of things yourself. You learn better by self teaching.

A mentor will only work if you are attracted to that mentor... You would need to trust that person and admire the way they handle situations... My mother once told me life is too short to make all your own mistakes so learn from others... I couldn't argue with that logic..

i believe it is a personal choice as well..whatever the person feels most comfortable with.If they feel they can learn and grow on their own..then so be it..but if they need some teaching and guidance then a Mentor is best.

Going on an individual path is more the thing now. As what others have learned can be changed and things are different from time to time.

Everything always changes. And I think the changes can be viewed as a problem...a sire or mentor because of this can be viewed as untrustworthy.

Personal choice only if you need the guidance, if someone is more than willing to help, they could very well turn into a companion. Best friends are always mentors, students are sometimes teachers as well as the other way around.

If one does need guidance, than I would encourage them to walk the path of the wise man, this wise man has many sires, mentors and teachers.

I would think it would be helpful to have someone to mentor you. Things are much easier and a much more easier fitting in , when you have someone to help you along the way.

Personally, I think that Mentoring is a good idea. It lays down the basic guidelines. It also teaches Honor, Respect, Discipline, Honesty and Loyalty.

I have always prefered the Old Ways to doday's modern society of instant this or that. THe Old Ways taught many things lacking in todays society, including acceptance. Just my two drops worth.

The young ones who are attracted by this vampirism should be vary carefully guided.
Sometimes this may become a dangerous path if you don`t have a friend to guide you.
The initiation should be a part of the process but not the beginning of it!

I still feel to be a Sire or mentor to someone is a great previlege to help them learn and teach them things that they would not normally know on their own.

I have not ever been a Sire to anyone I have been a mentor to many and the feeling was wonderful to know that I helped them overrcome many things just by being there for them.

No It hasnt gone out of Style. There are some good ones here. A Good Teacher or Mentor are not found at every corner or under every rock, you know?

I see it this way: for one to be an individual, they must walk their own path. For someone to be mentored, they are not learning things or seeing things from their own perspective, instead, they are learning the views of another.

it is always good to have someone to show you the way when you are learning about vampirism, but i feel that discovering things on your own is the best way to learn things, that way a person can learn at their own pace

Walk alone or in a pack. Advancement in knowledge is the goal. As to good 'teachers' or even 'mentors', there are few who can educate here, I personally do not see anything that leads me to believe otherwise. Many people here have some personal problems and wish to clump together for mutual support. Others are fakers/posers/attention seekers. Lastly there is a small group of people who genuinely care about helping others, but I would not label them "vampiric' in nature, just compassionate and insightful. See my journal shout out for more on this.

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