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As we travel a path of magic we find dogmas and controlling freaks.
Chaos magic has broken the rules and mixed magic paths together….
My point is the golden dawns top guy Israel Regardie had a lisp.
So for him to pronounce prissily the words is impossible… so my question is why did it work for him?

What is speech, it is a series of vibrations in the air. These vibrations could be created anywhere in nature by accident. The speech is more to focus your thoughts on your goal. By verbalising your intentions there isn't as much room for misinterpretation or distraction. You don't want to be casting a curse, suddenly think of your brother, and accidently curse him. This is the reason for specific objects in spells as well, eg. an item of the person.

Interesting… so you think as long as the focus and intent is there speech impediments dyslexia and badly drawn lines are secondary ?

I have dyslxia and no matter of difficulty has stopped me. It is not a simple word or phrase for language changes, it is the intent and the amount of focus/belief/faith that causes something to work.

In hoodoo if a person doesn't believe in it then it doesn't work.
In Christianity even Christ says that it is a persons faith, not Christ alone, that heals etc.
The same can be said for any type of craft or belief/faith based system.

Magic is/has been performed by many people speaking many different dialects. Over time languages are lost and created and expanded. Language is ecer changing. However the intent to curse in the modern day is the same as the intent to curse a millenia ago.

What do you mean vampireemo?

I believe it's the strength of your focus and intention as well as your belief that your magick will be successful that causes it to work. Some are worried about following someone else's spells to the letter for fear that otherwise they won't work. I choose to write my own spells for the most part because I feel that my own personal intention written into a working is far more powerful than borrowing someone else's.

Maybe the poeple where just desperate to find some thing believe in and then he came along....it was to easy for them to so ....maybe....

To me the words are secondary. They are there to keep focus and inforce the intent. As long as you feel the words, you dont need to hear them.

Well I would have to say that even with a lisp, it comes from with in, hell i don't even prounounce everything correct it in the believing of what you are doing, is where the real power comes.

If it worked for him it worked because he believed in it and had very strong faith that it would work. Magik is all about how much the practitioner believes.

This is kool subject,and there is much knowledge in the answers posted so far,and I respect you all.However,I think I might have to dissagree a bit in that words spoken,or sound is only important as focus.I happen to believe that sound is at the crux of any majick,and while it might not be the words or pronunciation that matters,I feel it is in the frequency that one obtains by using the words or song or whatever ,that counts.
Make sense?

obviously, it does'nt matter, or he wouldn't have achieved what he had in life.
Heres a question, some but not all Deaf people can speak, so what then. Does that me that their magjik is less effective nor nothing? ......Not at all! They can be effective and successful in magjik

I would say that belief plays a role in magic. That if you believe that your magic will not work if you make a mistake then it will not.

I believe it's the intent that matters as long and no one gets harmed in the process.

And remember too that not all sound/vibration is detectable by humans

Guess it all comes down to what works best for one.So lets say one guy cant talk and one cant hear..sound/ vibrations you can feel.You think it might be a factor?

even working with the energy if the thought produced the current then the current will have a frequency to achieve that specific goal.

It becomes an unsensable current except for those who can precise that intent, like a radio picking up certain channels at once. Sure it can do them all, but you can tune it to specific currents. So if all things spoken or unspoken align to resonate on that level then the work will achieve success.

thats a bad thing to say grendel, you should be more cautious with your words.

As many have stated, it is the intent and focus of the energy.

If you think about it, how else would someone who is mute still use magic otherwise?

There are many situations in which a silent heartfelt spell is used and gives results depending only on the strength of desire the person has. Granted, spoken words can enhance a spell by adding additional focus. I am not convinced that there are true power words or sounds that only through their use a spell can be conducted.

As an extent of this subject:

http://vampirerave.com/message.php?message=464767

Yes as much as I agree it is your focus/ intent/ willpower, I do feel some work and formulas need to be followed to a degree.
Chaos we break them open into segments and try to mold n re make, the out come can be suppressing and sometime hilarious you thought that might just work.
I guess it’s what ever gets you to that point of release of energy/ focus/ will / intent. so with this understanding …… why don’t magic users or accidental witches cast spells in there sleep?
My only answer is the body in REM sleep is dislocated from operating the body and this link must be complete for the willpower or intent to work?

Any suggestions?

I have found with a lot of older practitioners in various disciplines involving chants/mantras/rituals, that they eventually settle down to silent meditations and get as much done without saying or doing anything as someone who goes the whole hog with the words and actions.

lavisbre - since you mentioned Chaos Magic, it's all about intent and focus. Actual words, symbols, rituals, and somatic components are all secondary and really those are there just to establish focus. So a lisp would only have a negative effect if the speech impediment were a source of negative selfconsiousness or distracting to the user themself.

always follow the the guide lines of magic.cause if u dont bad jujue will happen.

Im not sure about that bad jujue happening.
Reconstruction of magic or systems is what we are all using.
Based on the interpretations and social upbringing and surroundings lines of magic have been reconstructed, since then the world has moved on in all areas.
I find Alister Crowley’s work progressive and in the right direction in the sense of experimenting.
You may notice it fashionable not to give you the whole spell, as elitist ideals or control are part of the nature of the people who reconstructed them.
What do you think

in magic i have found that the only true means of casting the spell is the with in the hearts of the person casting the spell or the rite. every one can speak using there hearts the only thing u must do is believe what u are putting forth in to the world around you. words to me mean nothing. for they are only there to put more focus on the subject of your spell. the soul is a mighty thing. fear it not and use it to speak to the world around us.

bide the wiccan law ye must
in perfect love , in perfect trust
eight words the wiccan rede fulfill
an harm ye none do as will
and ever mind the rule of three

what ye send out some back to thee
follow this with mind and heart
and merry ye meet and merry ye part


and if you do magick just remember it will come back at you times (x 3) if you do the wrong kind of magick


SO DO ME A FAVOR DONT SCAEW UP
and if you dont mess up then you wont get hurt

dogmatic onsided viewpoint there chief....

As your post states they are just guide lines . Not concrete rules that have to be followed . It is the energy you put behind the magic you are trying to create that does the trick .

All rules are made to be broken, it is the way of mankind. Set out rules and every man, woman and child will go to great lenghts to break these.

A quote from Pirates of the Carrabean..."rules...there more like guidelines". We all tend to make rules then when we break them we say there guidelines...such is mankind

Pretty much . I can't belive you quoted the movie . It is a great one . Some of the best spells i have done have been done with no words at all . Sometimes the brain can't spell out what the heart desires

now i know words have power but i think if you keep telling people something they will belive in it or think about it

If magic wa as easy as reading out loud than every one would be casting spells! It has to come from within, your inner power and energy , focus to channel that with your particular beliefs to enable your magic

I would say it depends really.. different people have different means of focusing. If you use sound then yeah it matters. But if say your focus is a flame in the candle.. why would the words matter.

When I make a new spell to be used.. I do write out the words.. say them a few times.. yet i notice when it comes time to actually cast it.. I find I rarely actually speak out loud and yet if anything I find my spells working better for me now. For me my focus is controling the thought pattern and sending it out. i have to be able to "see" the desire.. intent.. will.. what have you leave my body for the spell to work. So for me sound is very low n the list of important things.

I do know despite what i was saying earlier . Runic song magic does require very good intonation

The intent was there and that is all that was needed.

i dont no if this link im shareing will help but here it is..

Magic Guidelines

I think that as long as the belief in the results would be enough. It all comes from within, speech is nothing but all that is within coming out.

The intent and belief are more important than the words themselves.

theshining1-

Thanks 4 the link, that was actually helpful to one like me to get some general information

my girlfriend says on this topic says if you put emotion into the intention it may happen

I do not know much about this except..that everything as a vibrational frequencey every thought every intention.. the stroger the thought words intention ,.imagination.. the stronger the magic..right??

I see magick as an energy that binds and holds the universe together. That it is by Strength of Will and Focus of Mind that allows each person to reshape and alter this Energy inorder to alter the universe. Words, chants, spells, invocations, glyphs. These are the things that we use to Focus our Will and our Mind untill we can do it without them.

lol. I cannot but think of that commercial on TV that has a cable car stopping in mid air. All of the people freak out and one says something like "I took a class on this, we need to have positive thinking" all but one guy start doing this "positive thinking" and one guy hits the reset button.

I am a firm believer in practical application of resources to make positive change. Faith is nice and belief is nice but it won't change the world, it will only change you. Then you must act to change the world on your own, regardless of your belief in magic or the divine.

It's what's in your heart, not your words, that make Magick happen.

Interesting responses ….. yes magic is intent and will I also think there are some scientific laws added to this formula….. if there wasn’t then every dream we have about something would go off and that doesn’t happen. When we dream we are in REM state .. we disconnect from our bodies so as not to start walking or running in our sleep. The dream of walking and the ground being soft like marshmallow so you have trouble moving is a classic vivid dream state where the body is trying to move and the signals say were not moving so the brain pouts it together and it’s like walking through marshmallows.
This I feel stops us from casting magic but cant put my finger on why, if it’s only intent? If we do need are movements and speech … then how does some one impaired do it ?

Israel only invoked deities who also had a lisp.
One does not need to overcome any speech defect to properly form words to be heard by the powers with no ears. It is in the vibration according to OGD anyway.

I also think that the lisp would not affect the result as it is the intent and belief that are what matters.

there is also the part that most magical tenets have a God/Goddess in them.. ( or creative force... what ever would be the power high than the caster) and to assume they would not be able to understand the lisp.. when they gave it to the person seems a bit odd to me.

it's all in your mind

Hi knightdutchess … all in your mind… very profound, do you wish to elaborate on that comment?
One sentence post look like drive by posting… do you have more to add to such a deep expression?

I'd have to think there are other ways of magick casting other than speaking it outloud. Say, through your mind maybe.

yes there are my friend there are yet some will say you must do it to the letter cross the is n dot the T's

I agree that most magick uses different instruments, words etc.. to simply focus the mind and one's intent.

As for the question of why we can't accidently cast spells in our sleep - I believe that would have to do with your 3 realms of awareness or self. Since all three cannot be aligned while in the state of sleep one cannot cast spells while sleeping. Call it a failsafe, if you will.

its not the words that have power or give power , its you.. All the words them selves are is a way to focus energy, thought and power more of a meditation if you will.

The words them selves mean nothing its the thought, intent and what you wish to happen to happen..

Some students of the ways of chaos magick, will actually attest that magick has nothing to do with how you say whatever words that are supposedly associated with a spell, or what materialistic posessions that are used in conjunction with any given spell, it is force of will and belief in yourself that make the spell work.

If someone does not believe in themselves enough or does not believe that willpower is the true key to manifesting changes around them, then indeed the spells will not work as well as they should, if not fail completely.

mener

i do not think speech has much to do with it. Their are people who practice with out words or speaking. It may have more to do with will, and faith and intent. I'm not certain for sure.

not trying to get of topic here but who rerally knows the guide lines of majick.. is all this in a book or what..

Yes. But only partially...for most (who practice) it comes to them as an innate ability.

i as well believe that as long the intent and faith are true enough the method of it all doesnt really matter. It is what we mean deep down that matters and is what is heard.

the guide lines are set up so that if you chose to do something bad that it will come back to you x3 as for having a speech impediment not all spell worker have to say the words out loud you can just say them in your mind and it's just as good.that way no one knows what you said or did.

It worked for him because it comes from the inside -- In side his head the words were right ..

Magick is in the mind and body and heart and blood......saying the incantations only helps to focus the mind.To make sure your intent is clear its always good to say them outloud.

some people chant, some people use differant languages, what does it matter how its spoken? what matters is the belief and the center focus

Would certain entities to be called need their names voiced out loud?

I concur with the previous posts regarding using one's inner strength, drive, focus, and using one's power from within on making magic. Perhaps I'm thinking of more of the dark/gray side with invoking something and needing to actually call it forth.

He was soo devoted to his work that it would happen for him, reguardless of his speech.

No I think were on the same path, to call forward entities of different political views shall we say..lol
It is recommended you say their name correctly… I don’t think so and the reasons have been given…

to do magick its simply

1. you must see it done in your mind.

2. you must feel it in your heart.

That is why it works for some and not others

I think any hesitation to a spell is a sign that the caster may want to avoid the spell if they feel that they are not focused enough or will jummble the ritual then stop they should right there.

Focus and intent are a guage to effectivness if you doubt and nickpick the ritual you will doubt the outcome and void the spell.

Dabbler, is the ritual or the intent more important.

Well the intent, but if the ritual is doubted then the intent is questionable,if the caster obsesses over one or two parts of the ritual then after they do it they still expect results then they are going to be let down.

Humans tend to second guess themselves to preserve against harmful actions,so to avoid getting into something over your head one part of a spell may stumble or "hang up" the caster.

If a master chef goes to cook something he knows that a substatute ingriedent is okay to use but a novice is unsure and would obsess over whether it would effect the taste if some other factor makes the meal lousy the amature would likely think it had to do strictly with the substituted ingredent.

If I interupt myself in the middle of a ritual i rethink the application of the ritual.

If my intent is solid, but I screw up the ritual,can I still acheive the result.

Or,if I follow ritual to the letter, no matter what I think, do I acheive success.

10241024

They are very good questions. The answer to both of them is that you need to believe in yourself more than the ritual;, words, methodology etc etc.

Magick in itself has no method and so should never really have any method applied to it.

The art of using magick's raw energies is very subtle yet extremely difficult for many to master, let alone understand.

Belief is the real key here. With Chaos Magick, there are many elements that must be considered before attemptin any spell, but basically you can will something to happen if you believe it strongly enough.

In many ways it is much like mind over matter, but in essence it is completely different.

Mener

If my intent is solid, but I screw up the ritual,can I still acheive the result.

If the caster obesses over the details that may or may not have been done correctly then by the very counter effct the spell is reduced another percent not so radical as fail.Some elements of a spell are prepetory in practice if a prep chef mixes a batch of a pre ingredent the meal will suffer unless slight measures are made to add or reduce the effects of the ingredents in question.But a chef that goes through the prep ingrediants and studies up the final prep then the meal will be served just not to 4 star form.A confident caster as long as they embrace the element that they stutter or stumble on would less likely scratch a ritual because of that one slight where as a novice would be more likely to pause and recast.I would support that action. Obsessing over something excluded later can create a weekness in the casters confidence as opposed to building it with study before advancing with the spell.

The reason it worked for him and can ultimately work for anyone, no matter their disability or speech impetament, is simply because he had faith in what he was saying.

For any work of magic to occur, one needs only to have faith and then wait with expectation that the event will occur. So he just had enough faith to accomplish his works, technically so could you... no sweat.

I don’t think one even needs faith.
A sacrifice doesn’t necessarily need faith just to be marked with symbols to the ritual.
One could even go as far to say Hitler’s men were all marked for sacrifice.
Hell all solders in past n present have occult emblems on them…….

in chaos magic to each his own. it has its own order and has an infinite amount of paths to take.

Well it worked for him because he really believed in what he was doing by putting his whole heart into it, it doesn't matter if he had a lisp or not.

true it worked for him and many others... high magic is deep and lots of sigals n such... yet it works even if slightly wrong

who is to say that sometimes mages and witches dont accidentally cast spells in their sleep? how often have you had a dream come true? maybe you made it come true.

i know that if u dont follow the guidelines things will come back and bite u in the back

i dont agree in the come back n bite you ... that is just an atempt to control that which you have no power over... three fold as well

I think speaking is just voicing your thoughts and even if you misprounce something it doesn't matter. Because the will and intent are what creates the magick...

You always have to still yourself and focus in your mind what it is you want before you begin any spell or ritual. So I think that tells us immediately that the words are just part of the ritual, same with the incense and tools used. It boils down to focusing your will and releasing with what your intentions are.

i think the guide lines of magic is 2 have complete foces, strength, the viberations,and what your body and mind can handel.

it worked because he said the words in his mind and heart as well as uttered them into the air.

Books are all written by man kind there fro limited in their spectrum of reality.

I agree with MistressBloodDiamonds

we define our rality so it make sense to us, however who says its all corect 1+1=2 so what? thats not the law of the universe. its just what we have divised to make sense of it.

one must be careful with there powers for everyones sake follow the guidelines

why? why follow the guide lines if they dont matter... it's just a way to get you focused....

i think thats what we have understood so far

Matthew 6:7 "Do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

As this scripture so eliquently divulges, not all information is given to the unworthy because they do not understand it's purpose or nature and will try to condem you for using what you have shared with them.

Indeed I agree with what everyone has said...

It isn't the way the voice sounds... For magic is more powerful than just words.

It's a feeling... An emotion... it's hidden deep within the user.

Some people don't even need to speak in order for their magic to work...

I normally don't speak aloud, unless I have that feeling in my gut that I should. ~_^

It probably worked because the words formed in his mind.

i agree with MiakodaWolf

carsho thanks for the link i will check it out

its why they are dark ARTS
Art falls out of the realm science. Remember the term "not an exact science"?

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