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medicine man vs. wicca
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bluelightning2
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19:10:21 Jan 25 2008
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im cherokee and i read several books on wicca and compared them to different tribel traditions. my queston is do modern wicca look at the native american history and adopt the traditions into there own practices?




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bluelightning2
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19:11:47 Jan 25 2008
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on my page i have several cherokee preyers that are semiler to wiccan spells. thats why i wonder what others think.



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captgraybeard
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19:32:22 Jan 25 2008
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i mean no disrespect but i thought they were the same



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Infernalmage
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19:35:29 Jan 25 2008
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sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Wiccans are like the butchers making a quilt out of the different systems and structures of others.

Not concerning themselves with the history behind the words, merely cutting and pasting them into a new schema with which they can paint with their very bland strokes at the art that others have spent their time and effort creating.



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insanedemon
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19:37:48 Jan 25 2008
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No offense, but in my opinion, no matter what religion or tradition it's borrowed from something else.



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Infernalmage
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19:43:43 Jan 25 2008
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yes, but do you make the need study to understand for yourself why they are the way they are?

Or do you just accept whats handed to you? or take shreds of things from other sources making your own quilt regardless of the understanding as to why the way the were in the first place.

Ex- the Medicine men, building their practices from nature, the nature spirits, and the spirits which they came into contact with along with the elemental forces.

Keeping to that, most wiccans have never enountered the spirit of the earth, with each of the elements, and corresponding element. And can understand that what they are doing is communing with the same forces that man as a whole has been working with since the dawn of history.

If the do know these energies, and call them by their different names. It is that they will argue about whose gone wrong and whose deluisional etc...waisting their own time bickering instead of understanding their own whys, hows, whats, and whens.



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Meska
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20:01:00 Jan 25 2008
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isnt all of todays medicine a connection from natural medicine



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Infernalmage
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20:18:25 Jan 25 2008
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not all.



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Infernalmage
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20:19:33 Jan 25 2008
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---needing edit...

In its root...yes. but the means differs



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KioshisKeeper
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20:22:21 Jan 25 2008
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I think most religions are borrowed or influenced in some way by other religions.



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Infernalmage
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20:35:35 Jan 25 2008
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That they are,

but when you get down to it, religon is the forum by which man interacts with the natural forces which shapes the world.

He bows and has reverence only so he can get enough of their favor to allow the capacity to get ahead. Those souls who are priests are ones who cannot get ahead through the manipulation of that current, but only in unison with it, to bring it out to the capacity which their own will allows. Enabling one the use of the art.

The philosophies relating to it, are most common in western society to be based on Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle. In the east its the Taoists, and Sidhartha, as well as the many who have reflected on their path. The native tribes when they conferenced spoke and worked and compaired their findings, then the aztec and mayans had their systems.

Its just how you look to the roots of things. What you allow to influence you. If you can understand why it relates one to the other, then you will know that its all man trying to interact with the unnamable forces they are attempting to give name for.



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DarkLadyDahlia
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20:47:31 Jan 25 2008
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as said before ~ No offense, but in my opinion, no matter what religion or tradition it's borrowed from something or someone elses ways

i am also American Indian and practice Wicca I was taught that they are basically the same as long as you abide by the Laws of Nature Otherwise your not following the true Religion. that was how I was raised and the Medicine man as it were or Shaman is very much Wiccan religion due to the fact they follow the laws of nature and do not detter from them.



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Drakontion
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21:15:23 Jan 25 2008
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In my experience practitioners of Wicca will borrow bits from any religion they can get their hands on. But they tend towards appropriating stuff from either readily known religions, or native religions to their area.

Native American practices may not be readily known everywhere, so not everyone will pick them up. Wicca being at it's heart an earth-based religion, this kind of thing is only natural. Over here, we don't pick up so much Native American background unless it's published, and then, how do you know if it's right or just pre-packaged pap?



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bluelightning2
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21:33:17 Jan 25 2008
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i didnt meen for this to get on the topic of religion. i was wondering on the views and how the 2 are alike and there differences.



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FelineDraco
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22:02:25 Jan 25 2008
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some do .. some do not... wicca is a very personalizable thing.. thankfully. Being Navajo and rasied to take my place as a medicne person for a time.. yes my wicca path does include a great deal of my older learnings. Some will have more or less just depending on what feels right tot he person involved.



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DarkLadyDahlia
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22:14:21 Jan 25 2008
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well I still am very strong on the Native Heritage and our religion and I know that ours is not a load of Pap as it was put yet I do agree that in all religions things are always altered by the individual as it were.



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DarkLadyDahlia
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22:14:21 Jan 25 2008
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well I still am very strong on the Native Heritage and our religion and I know that ours is not a load of Pap as it was put yet I do agree that in all religions things are always altered by the individual as it were.



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Serebro
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22:24:48 Jan 25 2008
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I consider them to be very similar. I used to practice Wicca, but as I have adopted some of the practices and worldview of my Ojibwa and Cree heritage, I now class myself as an eclectic pagan.

Both are earth-centered at their core; both worship based on the earth as mother; both are based on a reverence for nature; both include offerings to the gods as part of their worship; both can include ritual drumming, chants or songs, dance, meditation and lucid dreaming, though none of those are required. Both can include rituals for healing, protection, and simple worship, and often use herbal remedies.

As far as distinctions, the god in Wicca is the lord of the forests and of the hunt, and maybe the sky secondary, but in Native American shamanism, the sky-father is the lord of all things. Ritual styles are a little different, but both include creating an area between the worlds which is protected by the elements, the recognition of the presence of god and goddess, and the working itself. The eating of cakes and ale and the symbolic Great Rite seem to be only found in Wicca, not in shamanism.



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Wolfspirits
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23:03:08 Jan 25 2008
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NO! you are sadly mistaken.
Shamanism has nothing to do with Wicca
and Native American Traditions have nothing to do with Wicca. They are separate, yet you can be N.A. and practice Wicca .



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MisfitChild
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23:34:12 Jan 25 2008
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i think so



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BathoryBabe
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00:00:50 Jan 26 2008
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I like you am Native American, I'm Ojibwe and yes I have found that they are very similar with both of them being very much earth based natural magic.



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gregorio
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05:01:24 Jan 26 2008
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well as my mom said DLD we are american Indian and they are very simular and awe practice alot of the old way which are very much our Wiccan ways LOl so I feel they are very much alike :0



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pinkmassacre
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05:32:15 Jan 26 2008
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Simply yes modern wicca does adapt and use Native American ways any prayers. Your subject line is a bit misleading.



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Midnightsbitch
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06:08:22 Jan 26 2008
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i think they are the same



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lavisbre
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06:17:02 Jan 26 2008
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Yes they are the same, wicca is a reconstruction religion.



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SLEEPEREFFECT
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06:20:54 Jan 26 2008
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I think and mind you its just my own opion but the native american traditions are tribal shamanistic religions where as wicca is more of a nature worship minus all the spirits of animals or the notion of a single great spirit



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pinkmassacre
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06:26:26 Jan 26 2008
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Hmm that was a just this side of offensive. Eh, lets just leave that alone. I am Native American. We are connected to everything. More directly I'm Navajo so we have more than a great spirit. We thought it'd be easier to say great spirit. Basically a lot of belief systems have a god or goddess that is the leader.



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pinkmassacre
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06:28:01 Jan 26 2008
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Sorry, sorry. If my post offended you. I agree with what you said. But I stated my differences with your post.



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SLEEPEREFFECT
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06:50:42 Jan 26 2008
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Hey correct away, as I said, it was just my point of view, all the wiccan text i have read tend to be much more divergent from the various native american legends I have read. I havent come across a notion in wiccan idealology where the spirit of various anumals or forces in nature have had the singular personalities found in the various shamenistics aspects of native americans. If I am in total eorros and offended you I do aplogize for my oversite.



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DravenG
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07:47:46 Jan 26 2008
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But to just catorigize that The Wiccans took from the different tribes, is pretty much one sides. Every culturial religion has been added to or taken from some where along the lines. As fro those associated with witchcraft, have come down the lines from the druids. As fro animals and association. Many of the animal came from the celtic traditions, the raven the snake the bear... ect. Yes alot of things have been learned from the different Tribes.



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xRoguex
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10:47:21 Jan 26 2008
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I believe that wicca has borrowed hugely from many religions, but the ideals are what is important now who took what from who. Wicca is a modern religion that has brought witchcraft and earth worship together under a large umbrella.

As wiccan's are earth worshippers then yes I can see how the religious beliefs of the American Indians and wiccan's go hand in hand well almost. There are parallels I guess is what I am trying to say.

But the American Indian is a very ancient well established belief that many, many religions have borrowed from.



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scorpioblacktiger
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The earth worshiping qualities might make them simular...but I believe in their believes they are totally different. Wicca involves a sense of witchcraft that native americans would generally see as negitive energy in some ways.



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misbegottenlust
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11:50:18 Jan 26 2008
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To me the similarities are that they are both earth based beliefs. The native americans believe in the earth as the mother as do wiccans



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Gwendolyn
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11:52:19 Jan 26 2008
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I too am Native American and I see many similiarities between the two. Native American beliefs trend toward the earth as mother and natural energy as I see the wiccan belief also believes in.



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Lightningsking
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15:20:43 Jan 26 2008
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I also believe that the two have alot of simalarities in the beliefs about everything being based on the earth. I also belief alot of the beliefs of the native americans relate to magic



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mystikalmoon15
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04:30:36 Jan 27 2008
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Yes they do, in fact i am currently studying corriellian Wicca which has native American practices in it some what....



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WolfEye
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05:32:38 Jan 28 2008
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Yes they are very closely associated and they both are very old. No telling which came first most Wiccan's hid so they would not be killed.



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Whispersinthewind
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06:26:47 Jan 28 2008
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No matter what you discuss concerning the amiable qualities of the arts, magiks etc...It will ultimately lead to religion no matter what, as all magiks are of deity set anywho.

I do agree with the fact that certain aspects of "wicca" are based off the Native American stand point, but we must also consider that both are far differant than one another in other various aspects as well. As the Shaman pronounces to the Great Spirit, Wiccans call to their mother goddess. Which neither are the same. But both are entirely the same. Just needs a bit of open minded understanding...To absorb the philosophies of both.

I say, instead of discussing the negative aspects of any topic, why not shed a bit of light for positive reinforcement.



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SLEEPEREFFECT
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08:32:23 Jan 28 2008
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my only point was the two are not really similar, while ritualisticly there are some similarities, the mythology and the traditions behind each are very different. More contemporary forms of wicca may borrow from the indeginous culters of north america, but the native american traditions include stories and rites not neccessarily found in the the wiccan tradition. As to which is older? isnt that a little like what came first the chicken or the egg? when the reality is probably somewhere more like both may have arisen independantly of each other and yet because of the lifestyle of the particiapnts the methods of spiritualty may have been someone akin to one another?



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DemianA
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08:41:26 Jan 28 2008
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Nearly all the belief systems practiced by Wiccans are rooted in the UK where the first of the revivalists, Gerald Garner, organized his coven in the late 40s. There were no Native American practices or traditions included in the Gardernarian Book of Shadows. Since the mid 60s there have emerged, in the USA, Wicca covens that were influenced by Gardners rites and rituals. There have been Native American chants and ritual added to the liturgy of some Wicca traditions since the 70s, but all traditions have the same litergy.
Native American liturgy is a development of hundreds of years of oral tradition that was not influenced by foreign influence. There are beliefs that are shared by both groups, a reverence for nature and belief in spirits and elementals. However the concept of deity of Native Americans is not the same as Wiccan belief, although both are pagan.



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Whispersinthewind
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09:19:35 Jan 28 2008
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My point precisely. I think the only thing that keeps them side by side is the fact that the stereotype of "paganism" is involved. What I mean to say, is both are polytheistic. Not as normal religious pilosophies linger.

Though the Native American concept is the idea of mother earth, which is the balance of the circle of life concept...Reaching to the Great Spirit, the spirits of the earth, air, fire and water...Simply means they respect the land of their ancestors as any culture should.

Wiccans on the other hand, call on the god/goddess respectively and in turn draw on their power for the access of natures magiks to my understanding.

So in my opinion, yes...A bit polytheistic for both...Not nessessarily pagan, but polytheistic regardless the boundary.

Makes on think if the Native Americans actually worship said Great Spirit, or just respect the energies thereof accordingly.



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VW39
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I don't believe so. I think, as previously stated, they call on a deity.

Or just from ancient Wiccan's.



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platinumwitch
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I also am part native American, Cherokee and I am also a Pagan. I believe we have the same problem in this discussion as in one on the differences between witchcraft and Wicca. There is an entire rainbow of traditions of Wicca that in one extreme are very tied with the Native American Shamanistic beliefs and at the other extremes are devoid of any thing but being an Earth based religion that believes in a Deity.



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boneyardvixen
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I think wiccan focus more on everything having a spirit, rocks, trees, etc while native americans believe in everything has a spirit AND various gods and goddesses.



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wensala
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01:38:48 Jan 29 2008
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I've known many wiccans that have studied even embraced Native American 's use of herbs and spiritual practices.



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Daedal
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I believe that, although they have many similarities, they are two very different, distinct religions.



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Whispersinthewind
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06:08:04 Jan 29 2008
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All in all, I think the only thing that seperates the two, would be the fact that the Native American takes in everything, while the Wiccan takes in only what individual wishes. Kind of like a salad bar...Take what you want and leave the rest. I could be wrong.



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BloodDrenchedRose
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I don't think so but I suppose there are similarities in a few things



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coldkisses
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12:11:48 Feb 09 2008
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someone above mentioned about religions being "borrowed"
i find it interesting that the pagans came before the christians

anyway, i would agree with that statement



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VW39
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Why do you find that interesting, coldkisses?



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BloodMoonAngel
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I think it's possible



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xKioshix
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06:46:08 Feb 11 2008
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i think older native american traditions, are handed down and stay the same for the most part...

Wicca i think people take and chop and cut , and make it fit their needs.. more versatile.



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lavisbre
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sure wicca takes from all areas as it reconstructs it’s systems.
All religions borrow rewrite n fix or corrupt…..

Hope that’s answered the question


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SteelTalons
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16:15:09 Feb 11 2008
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"my queston is do modern wicca look at the native american history and adopt the traditions into there own practices?"

Modern Wiccans tend to look at any religion's history who's practices appeal to them, then adapt them to suit their own purpose.



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Oceanne
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16:17:41 Feb 11 2008
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From what I have seen,yes Wiccans do copy and paste.NO offense to anyone..jmho



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SireZombie
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16:27:49 Feb 11 2008
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I do agree with the fact that certain aspects of "wicca" are based off the Native American stand point, but we must also consider that both are far differant than one another in other various aspects as well. As the Shaman pronounces to the Great Spirit, Wiccans call to their mother goddess. Which are the same. We as american Indians respect the whole spirit world as well as the world of Nature and to me
But both are entirely the same. Just needs a bit of open minded understanding...To absorb the philosophies of both ways of worshiping or living and believing.

Wicca has been around for many centruries and the Indians have also got it recognised as a true religion in many states so to me they are the same, just as American indian we may do it differently then someone who practice just Wicca without an Indian Heretiage... just my opinion is all .



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WK
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16:37:33 Feb 11 2008
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most religions adopt from other bleafs even christans have adopted things from the wiccan bleafs it may have but wicca has like native amaricans also both there bleafs revolvs around nature and the energys of the universe



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Oceanne
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16:40:56 Feb 11 2008
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Hey,can you shed some light on what beliefs the christian has adopted from the Wiccan please?



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WK
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16:46:13 Feb 11 2008
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theres a few things that christans adopted from wicca one is a wiccan pentacle



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Oceanne
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16:48:55 Feb 11 2008
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What leads you to believe that the pentacle was exclusively Wiccan?



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WK
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16:51:03 Feb 11 2008
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becouse it was and in some covins still is



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Oceanne
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16:52:53 Feb 11 2008
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It was used in Sumeria too.Arouond 3000 BCE, as the sign UB.I dont believe there where wiccians then..correct me if Im worng tho.



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WK
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16:55:30 Feb 11 2008
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wtf are you talkin about?



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Oceanne
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I do believe I asked you about he pentacle..you say the christians got it from the Wiccans..I think I disagree at this point .it was not originally Wiccan...Mesepotamian actually.Thaz wtf Im talking about.



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TaintedLight
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Indian Medicine Man - The sculpture is created from the highest grade Honduras Plantation Mahogany. It has been dried to perfection in my humidity controlled storage for years to the desired moisture content. I am a perfectionist.

The fur, beaded, horn bands are ermine skins with old trade beads tightly loomed. The designs are authentic. Five eagle feathers were created from butternut. After I shaped the detail, I colored and added very tiny detail by using a heated needle. They are free hanging and detailed on both sides.

The hair bone pipe in the breast plate is made from real bone. The coloring of the bone was done as the Indians did it, with leaves made into a coloring tea. Many of the beads are pre-World War I. The breast shell is abalone and the tails are real ermine tails. The breast plate is lined with mink fur.

The Indian Peace Pipe is created from walnut and maple with fine detailed feathers carved from butternut with coloring and detail added by use of the heated needle. The skull is one piece created from maple. The deer hide medicine bag is authentic in detail, tanning coloring, beads and designs. With a finishing final touch to the sculpture add one masterfully shaped butternut Eagle feather serving as the signature plate.

The medicine man was of many powers partnered with the spirits and the medicines made in his pharmacy. In some tribes a catastrophic failure to perform miracles on demand would cost him his life, by agreement, taken in ceremony by the hands of the tribe.

Old medicine men were hard to find. They pledged a life time guarantee that was honored in life and death in reality.

Wicca is a Neopagan religion that can be found in many English-speaking countries. Originally founded by the British civil servant Gerald Gardner, probably in the 1940s, although it was first openly revealed in 1954. Since its founding, various related Wiccan traditions have evolved, the original being Gardnerian Wicca, which is the name of the tradition that follows the specific beliefs and practices established by Gerald Gardner.

repeatedly in his published work of 1954. The spelling "Wicca" is now used almost exclusively, (Seax-Wica being the only major use of the four-letter spelling).

In Old English, wicca meant necromancer or male witch. Some contend that the term wicca is related to Old English witan, meaning wise man or counselor, but this is widely rejected by language scholars as false etymology. Nonetheless, Wicca is often called the "Craft of the wise" as a result of this misconception.It appears that the word may be untraceable beyond the Old English period. Derivation from the Indo-European roots 'wic' or 'weik' is seemingly incorrect by phonological understanding.Though sometimes used interchangeably, "Wicca" and "Witchcraft" are not the same thing. The confusion comes, understandably, because both practitioners of Wicca and practitioners of witchcraft are often called witches. In addition, not all practitioners of Wicca are witches, and not all witches are practitioners of Wicca.

Wicca refers to the religion. This can be a reference to both the initiatory tradition, where initiates are assigned a degree and generally work in covens, and to Solitary Wicca, where practitioners self-dedicate themselves to the tradition and generally practice on their own. Both Initiates and Solitary Wiccans worship the Goddess, with most also choosing to worship the God, and both celebrate the Sabbats and Esbats.

Witchcraft, or as it is sometimes called "The Craft², on the other hand, requires no belief in specific gods or goddesses and is not a specific spiritual path. Thus, there are Witches who practise a variety of religions besides Pagan ones, such as Judaism and Christianity. It is considered to be a learned skill, referring to the casting of spells and the practice of magic or magick (the use of the "k" is to 'in order to distinguish the Science of the Magi from all its counterfeits' (or perhaps just to make it sound better), and was coined as a spelling by Aleister Crowley). To add to the confusion the term witchcraft in popular older usage, or in a modern historical or anthropological context, means the use of black or evil magic, not something Wicca encourages at all.

Origins

The history of Wicca is a much debated topic. Gardner claimed that the religion was a survival of matriarchal religions of pre-historic Europe (see Völva), taught to him by a woman named Dorothy Clutterbuck. Many believe he invented it himself, following the thesis of Dr. Margaret Murray and sources such as Aradia: Gospel of the Witches by Charles Godfrey Leland, and the practices of Freemasonry and ceremonial magic; and while Clutterbuck certainly existed, historian Ronald Hutton concluded that she is unlikely to have been involved in Gardner's Craft activities. While the ritual format of Wicca is undeniably styled after late Victorian era occultism, the spiritual content is inspired by older Pagan faiths, with Buddhist and Hindu influences. Whether any historical connection to Pagan religion exists, the aspiration to emulate Pagan religion (as it was understood at the time) certainly does.

Gardner probably had access to few, if any, traditional Pagan rites. The prevailing theory is that most of his rites were the result of his adapting the works of Aleister Crowley. There is very little in the Wiccan rites that cannot be shown to have come from earlier extant sources. The original material is not cohesive and mostly takes the form of substitutions or expansions within unoriginal material, such as embellishment of Crowley lines.

Philip Heselton, writing in Wiccan Roots and later in Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration, argues that Gardner was not the author of the Wiccan rituals but received them in good faith from an unknown source. He notes that all the Crowley material that is found in the Wiccan rituals can be found in a single book, The Equinox vol 3 no. 1 or Blue Equinox. Gardner is not known to have owned or had access to a copy of this book.The idea of primitive matriarchal religions, deriving ultimately from studies by Johann Jakob Bachofen, was popular in Gardner's day, both among academics (e.g., Erich Neumann, Margaret Murray) and amateurs such as Robert Graves.

Later academics (e.g. Carl Jung and Marija Gimbutas) continued research in this area, and later still Joseph Campbell, Ashley Montagu and others highly esteemed Gimbutas's work on the matrifocal cultures of Old Europe. Both matrifocal interpretation of the archaeological record, and the foundations of criticism of such work, continue to be matters of academic debate. Some academics carry on research in this area (consider the 2003 World Congress on Matriarchal Studies). Critics argue that matriarchal societies never actually existed, and are an invention of researchers such as Margaret Murray.

The idea of a supreme Mother Goddess was common in Victorian and Edwardian literature: the concept of a Horned God--especially related to the gods Pan or Faunus--was less common, but still significant. Both of these ideas were widely accepted in academic literature, and in the popular press. Gardner used these concepts as his central theological doctrine, and constructed Wicca around this core.

Later developments

Wicca has developed in several directions and institutional structures from the time it was brought to wider attention by Gerald Gardner. Gardnerian Wicca was an initiatory mystery religion, admission to which was at least in theory limited to those who were initiated into a pre-existing coven. The Book of Shadows, the grimoire that contained the Gardnerian rituals, was a secret that could only be obtained from a coven of proper lineage. Some Wiccans such as Raymond Buckland, then a Gardnerian, continued to maintain this stance well into the 1970s. Further degrees of initiation were required before members could found their own covens. Interest outstripped the ability of the mostly British-based covens to train and propagate members; the beliefs of the religion spread faster by the printed word or word of mouth than the initiatory system was prepared to handle.

Other traditions appeared. Some claimed roots as ancient as Gardner's version, and were organised along similar lines. Others were syncretistic, importing aspects of Kabbalah or ceremonial magic. In 1971 "Lady Sheba" published a version of the Gardnerian Book of Shadows, dispelling what little secrecy remained as to the contents of Gardner's rituals. Increasing awareness of Gardner's literary sources and the actual early history of the movement made creativity seem as valuable as Gardnerian tradition.

Another significant development was creation by feminists of Dianic Wicca or feminist Dianic Witchcraft, a specifically feminist faith that discarded Gardnerian-style hierarchy as irrelevant; many Dianic Wiccans taught that witchcraft was every woman's right and heritage to claim. This heritage might be characterized by the quote of Monique Wittig "But remember. Make an effort to remember. Or, failing that, invent." This tradition was particularly open to solitary witches, and created rituals for self-initiation to allow people to identify with and join the religion without first contacting an existing coven. This contrasts with the Gardnerian belief that only a witch of opposite gender could initiate another witch.

The publications of Raymond Buckland illustrate these changes. During the early 1970s, in books such as Witchcraft - Ancient and Modern and Witchcraft From the Inside, Buckland maintained the Gardnerian position that only initiates into a Gardnerian or other traditional coven were truly Wiccans.

However, in 1974, Buckland broke with the Gardnerians and founded Seax-Wica, revealing its teachings and rituals in the book The Tree: The Complete Book of Saxon Witchcraft. This "tradition" made no claims to direct descent from ancient Saxons; all its ritual was contained in the book, which allowed for self-initiation. In 1986 Buckland published Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft, a workbook that sought to train readers in magical and ritual techniques as well as instructing them in Wiccan teachings and rituals.

Beliefs and practice

sIt is commonly understood that Wiccans worship two deities, the Goddess and the God sometimes known as the Horned God. Some traditions such as the Dianic Wiccans mainly worship the Goddess; the God plays either no role, or a diminished role, in Dianism. Many Gardnerian Wiccans do not claim to be duotheistic, but rather, may practice some form of polytheism, often with particular reference to the Celtic pantheons; they may also be animists, pantheists, agnostics or indeed any of the other spectacular range of possibilities.

Wiccans celebrate eight main holidays (or Sabbats): four cross-quarter days called Samhain, Beltane (or Beltaine), Imbolc (also called Imbolg, Oimelc, or Candlemas) and Lammas (or Lughnasadh), as well as the solstices, Litha and Yule, and equinoxes, Ostara (or Eostar or Eostre) and Mabon (see Wheel of the Year). They also hold Esbats, which are rituals held at the full and new moon.

Generally, the names are of ancient Germanic or Celtic holidays held around the same time, although two do not have any historical precedent. Ritual observations may include mixtures of those holidays as well as others celebrated at the same time in other cultures; there are several ways to celebrate the holidays.

Some Wiccans join groups called covens, though others work alone and are called "solitaries". Some solitaries do, however, attend "gatherings" and other community events, but reserve their spiritual practices (Sabbats, Esbats, spell-casting, worship, magical work, etc.) for when they are alone. Some Wiccans work with a community without being part of a coven.Many beliefs hold that the ideal number of members for a coven is thirteen. When a coven grows beyond their ideal number of members, they often split into multiple covens, yet remain together as a group. A grouping of multiple covens is known as a grove.Wiccans weddings can be called "bondings", "joinings", or "eclipses" but are most commonly called "handfastings".

Some Wiccans observe an ancient Celtic practice of a trial marriage for a year and a day, which some Traditions hold should be contracted on Lammas (Lughnasadh), although this is far from universal. When someone is being initiated into a coven, it is also traditional to study with the coven for a year and a day before their actual initiation into to the religion, and some Solitary Wicca choose to study for a year and a day before dedicating themselves to the religion.

A much sensationalized aspect of Wicca, particularly in Gardnerian Wicca, is that some Wiccans practice skyclad (naked). Though many Wiccans do this, many others do not. Some Wiccans wear a pure cotton robe, to symbolise bodily purity, and a cord, to symbolise interdependence and which is often used during rituals.

Others wear normal clothes or whatever they think is appropriate. Robes and even Renaissance-Faire-type clothing are not uncommon.In usual rites the Wiccans assemble inside a magic circle, which is drawn out in a ritual manner followed by a cleansing and then blessing of the space. Prayers to the God and Goddess are said, and spells are sometimes worked. Traditionally, the circle is followed by a meal. Before entering the circle, some Traditions fast for the day, and have a thorough wash.

Many Wiccans use a special set of altar tools in their rituals; these can include a broom (besom), cauldron, Chalice (goblet), wand, Book of Shadows, altar cloth, athame (personal knife), altar knife, boline, candles, and/or incense. Representations of the God/Goddess are often also used, which may be direct, representative, or abstract. The tools themselves are just that--tools, and have no innate powers of their own, though they are usually dedicated or charged with a particular purpose, and used only in that context. It is considered rude to touch another's tools without permission.

There are different thoughts in Wicca regarding the Elements. Some hold to the earlier Greek conception of the classical elements (air, fire, water, earth), while others recognize five elements: earth, air, water, fire, and spirit (akasha). It has been claimed that the points of the frequently worn pentagram symbol, the five pointed star, symbolise five elements.

The pentacle (a pentagram (five-pointed star) inside of a circle) is most often shown with its point facing upward. Alexandrian Wicca believe that the upper point represents spirit, and the four remaining points symbolise earth, air, fire, and water. This symbolism has slowly worked itself into other traditions such as Solitary Wicca and Seax-Wica, but most Gardnarian Wicca will deny that the points of the pentagram or pentacle actually represent anything at all.

Some people believe that the top point of the pentacle was chosen to represent the spirit as it is often recognized as being more important than the four elements. When, in Satanism for example, the pentacle is usually inverted, the point representing spirit faces downward, and it is often taken that this symbolises that it is less important than physical things.

Another much less common view on the symbolism of the pentacle is that the upright pentacle is a protective charm which protects its wearer through passive energies, such as good will or pleasing emotions, and that the inverted pentacle protects its wearer using aggressive energies, such as curses or angry emotions.

In either case, these are the elements of nature that symbolize different places, emotions, objects, and natural energies and forces. For instance, crystals and stones are objects of the element earth, and seashells are objects of the water element. Each of the four cardinal elements, air, fire, water and earth, are commonly assigned a direction and a color. The following list is not true for all traditions, or branches of Wicca:




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Oceanne
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17:26:42 Feb 11 2008
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Nice post MW. Thanks.Here is a bit also..

The earliest known use of the pentagram dates back to around the Uruk period around 3500BC at Ur of the Chaldees in Ancient Mesopotamia where it was found on potsherds together with other signs of the period associated with the earliest known developments of written language. In later periods of Mesopotamian art, the pentagram was used in royal inscriptions and was symbolic of imperial power extending out to "the four corners of the world".



Amongst the Hebrews, the symbol was ascribed to Truth and to the five books of the Pentateuch. It is sometimes, incorrectly, called the Seal of Solomon (see Hexagram) though its usage was in parallel with the hexagram. In Ancient Greece, it was called the Pentalpha, being geometrically composed of five A's. Unlike earlier civilisations, the Greeks did not generally attribute other symbolic meanings to the letters of their alphabet, but certain symbols became connected with Greek letter shapes or positions (e.g. Gammadion, Alpha-Omega). The geometry of the pentagram and its metaphysical associations were explored by the Pythagoreans (after Pythagoras 586-506BC) who considered it an emblem of perfection. Together with other discovered knowledge of geometric figures and proportion, it passed down into post-Hellenic art where the golden proportion may be seen in the designs of some temples. Pythagoras was known to have travelled all over the ancient world from the mysteries into which he was initiated, and it seems likely that his travels took him to Egypt, to Chaldea and to lands around the Indus.



There may be a connection here with the presence of the pentagram in Tantrik art. To the Gnostics, the pentagram was the 'Blazing Star' and, like the crescent moon was a symbol relating to the magic and mystery of the nighttimes sky. For the Druids, it was a symbol of Godhead. In Egypt, it was a symbol of the 'underground womb' and bore a symbolic relationship to the concept of the pyramid form. The Pagan Celts ascribed the pentagram to the underground goddess Morrigan. Early Christians attributed the pentagram to the Five Wounds of Christ and from then until medieval times, it was a lesser-used Christian symbol. Prior to the time of the Inquisition, there were no 'evil' associations to the pentagram. Rather its form implied Truth, religious mysticism and the work of The Creator.



The Emperor Constantine I, who, after gaining the help of the Christian church in his military and religious takeover of the Roman Empire in 312 AD, used the pentagram, together with the chi-rho symbol (a symbolic form of cross) in his seal and amulet. However, it was the cross (a symbol of suffering) rather than the pentagram (a symbol of truth) that was used as a symbol by the Church which subsequently came to power and who's 'manifest destiny' was to usurp the supreme power of the Roman Empire, using as an instrument a forged document - 'The Donation of Constantine'. The annual church feast of Epiphany, celebrating the visit of the three Magi to the infant Jesus as well as the Church's mission to bring 'truth' to the Gentiles had as it's symbol the pentagram, (although in present times the symbol has been changed to a five-pointed star in reaction to the neo-pagan use of the pentagram). In the legend of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, the pentagram was Sir Gawain's glyph, inscribed in gold on his shield, symbolising the five knightly virtues - generosity, courtesy, chastity, chivalry and piety.

And more...






What is Wicca?


Wicca is a contemporary spiritual religion, based on and reviving the ancient pre-Christian pagan religions of Europe.



Copped from:http://www.controverscial.com/Pentagram%20-%20Pentacle.htm



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Oceanne
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17:30:24 Feb 11 2008
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MasterWolf,would you please post the link to the information you posted?Unless you wrote it..in that case I apologise.



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Infernalmage
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17:40:21 Feb 11 2008
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Masterfully put Oceanne



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Sulky0Uya
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21:06:57 Feb 11 2008
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i think it mean the same thing but i could be wrong.



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VW39
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03:35:18 Feb 12 2008
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Interesting posts, masterwolf and Oceanne.



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nighwish1977
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They are sort of similar depending on the wiccan in question. Wicca is an earth based religon and they respect the earth and nature and the ALL much the same as Native Americans. The spells you have seen may have been borrowed and adapted from your people, but that is the choice of the person who wrote them. If and when I write or use an spells I tend to go for spells with more of a Nordic background. That is because the deities I work are Thor and Freya from the Viking history. So you see the pesron who wrote them spells may have been using many Native American traditions to draw from.



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BathoryBabe
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20:21:43 Feb 20 2008
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I have found the same thing with wicca and my own native beliefs. They are very similar in their ways.



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Ahriman
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I've heard once that Wicca is considered to be derived from the old druids spells and religion and that it does not have roots in the old Native American tradition...
But looking at both religions and systems from a closer look, isn't it true that they are based on nature and on the same elements? I mean, it is only one planet and the plants and elements are the same...
So it is not surprising that the systems now might look alike, adding that the old norse men and druids did travel across the Atlantic... and maybe an experience exchange was performed.



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thedarkx
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I dont think they are the same, perhaps the may share some similarities, but native american magic varies from tribe to triabe nation to nation and also regions. Wicca I believe originated from ancient celtic druids.



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Ahriman
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Actually, from what I see, they are basically the same... no matter the spelling, a tea leaf will be a tea leaf in any dialect...
From what I read, druids had a higher understanding of what they were doing and approached the situations in a more scientific way...



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boneyardvixen
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If anyone knows the theory of Panagea (I think I spelled that correctly), it could explain why there are similarities in different cultures around the world.

In Panagea, it's believed that the tectonic plates move constantly, that they slide so to speak. The continents all form together at various points in the worlds history and instead of many continents, there was only one continent. Then the plates started shifting the opposite way so the continents broke apart. Theory is they will end up together again.

Scientists believe this is how many of the same creatures got from one place to another (before man started transporting things all over the globe, that is) and how humans were spread out. Evolution has changed how each peoples look now but at one time, we all were the same. Genetically, with the exception of a few gender and lineage based differences, one human is the same as another.

Magic and religion may have started out the same but it changed and evolved, just like the people.



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lavisbre
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I believe the original druids started it all, were fining buried graves of druids in places they never should have been according to history as were taught right now… it looks like they taught magic to the world.
I will have more on this latter


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Ahriman
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It is a known fact that druids travelled across the lands as a part of their learning experience and to find out new ways and new plants to practice their magic.



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Daeva
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Thank you for posting the article on Witchcraft because I have been trying to get across to people that Wicca is its own thing and different from traditional Witchcraft.

In the United States, American folkmagic is Hoodoo but in Africa it is something else. It is a combination of Native American rootwork and practices brought here by the slaves. It is very similar in certain things to Wicca. Some of the newer spells and not the ones so much that Hyatt collected.

The biggest organization within the Wiccan religion...as far as a church is :
(and no this isn't from Wikipedia, lol, I wrote this except for quotes)


The Correllian Nativist Tradition is a form of Wicca that goes back to the Correll family, who are referred to as the High-Correllian family. The family was descended from a tribe of the Cherokee Nation. This particular tribe was the Didanvwisgi. Later through intermarriage with Scottish settlers, Scottish witchcraft was introduced and intermingled with the Native American shamanistic practices that were already existent in this tradition. Practitioners were exposed to other traditions as time passed. Therefore Aradian Witchcraft and various views of the Spiritualist Church were also later incorporated into what is now termed Correllian Witan.


One thing to remember is that the Traditional form of Witchcraft distinguishes itself from Wicca. Practitioners of Witchcraft will state very clearly that they are NOT one in the same. Accordingly many claim that witchcraft is the name given to many Pagan religions that were followed by inhabitants of Europe as Christianity took its foothold. Prior to that they had no name. Some practices were handed down in family lines or practiced under the guise of Catholicism.

Traditional Witchcraft does not contain the Rede, Watchtowers or any rite of self-initiation. Whereas Witchcraft does follow rites of passage and honoring its roots and may differ slightly by culture but the basics are there that distinguish it from Wicca. These identifiable differences clearly differentiate Wicca rather than Witchcraft when practiced according to practitioners.

Quite often the word Warlock is mentioned in regard to both Wicca and Witchcraft but this was something used by the Church to disparage Witchcraft. “The word "warlock" translates as the Scottish Gaelic term for a liar, oath breaker, back-stabber, or someone generally not to be trusted.”2 Warlock did not refer to a male witch but designated those who betrayed the coven. A knife would be taken and the forehead of the betrayer was cut so all could recognize them for who they were, someone who could not be trusted.

The Aradian Tradition stems from Witchcraft in Italy, called Tanarra. It is a nature religion. “It acknowledges polarity of gender within the natural order personified as the God and Goddess. The year is divided up into the God months, October through February and the Goddess months, March through September. Balance is essential and therefore Goddess and God are viewed as equal but different manifestations of Divine Consciousness.”3

Lets recap what was stated earlier. Essentially the Correllian Nativist Tradition is a form of Paganism, which incorporates, Wicca, Witchcraft via Italy, Spiritualism and Native American Shamanism. This makes for one very unique combination.

Due to their universalistic views the main goal of the Correllian Tradition is to unite Pagans for the good of all concerned. “The Correllian Tradition emphasizes celebratory as well as initiatory Wicca, and is strongly committed to accessible public ritual.”6 The dedication and hard work of this Tradition has allowed it to become the largest and fastest growing Wiccan church in the World.

(This is only a portion of the article I just skipped to certain parts)

As for Druids which were mentioned they were considered somewhat of an enigma and no one knows what their real name is because they did not call themselves Druids. It is found in writings of foreign visitors to the area and the name has stuck. Most of what is practiced today is mixed with Wicca especially in the US the only one I know for sure that is not is the Irish Bhairdic

To answer the first question, I think either could be just as successful.



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Sulky0Uya
Sulky0Uya

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14:43:48 Feb 23 2008
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i dont see the diffence between the two of them.



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Oceanne
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16:30:22 Feb 23 2008
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Despite Gardner’s original claim that the Witchcraft he was initiated into was an unbroken line of ancient Paganism, the evidence would appear to suggest that he actually combined a number of various sources, some possibly ancient but the vast majority were new, to make a brand new religious movement – Wicca. Despite the belief in a Goddess being prominent in ancient times, it simply cannot be maintained that Wicca is an ancient pre-Christian religion as no evidence can be brought forward to demonstrate that such a belief system, with its intricate ceremonies and ritualism, ever existed until Gardner introduced it to the world in the 1950’s.

http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/wiccaorigins.htm



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Oceanne
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16:33:38 Feb 23 2008
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From what I have read so far it does appear that Wicca was derived from Shamanism,thus the similarities.



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H3LiX
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19:40:23 Feb 27 2008
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I myself am Cherokee and a practicing wiccan.
I personally have intertwined rituals of my heritage and of my practice together.



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Pai
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20:19:48 Feb 27 2008
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Perhaps the art of healing has nothing to do with tradition. Maybe if people were to dissolve the borders and boundaries between all the traditions, and in that way, no longer define a practice by the people who do it, we could discover a pure and whole art of healing.



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Rinju
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02:33:41 Feb 28 2008
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I Don't see to much of a diiference..



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raven001
raven001

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03:22:44 Feb 28 2008
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i think it depends on the one practicing, i mean who wouldn't look at something from many other aspects?



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TheAdversary
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03:26:27 Feb 28 2008
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i dont no much about this but my mom does .. i will ask her your questions and repost them when she gives me the answers



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raven001
raven001

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03:29:23 Feb 28 2008
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good idea, i'd go ask mine but she's asleep so i won't bother her.



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xRobin3x
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03:32:34 Feb 28 2008
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I am wiccan, and i do use alot of indian ways of the medican man. The druids, also bring to me some similer stuff.

But both the indian ways and wicca are so alike that to me is interchangeable.



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TheAdversary
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03:34:07 Feb 28 2008
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ok i got your question bluelightning2...

some wicca 's do and some dont, the corrillien wiccans have alot of native tradition. my mom is mystikalmoon15 and you can email her to ask more from her personally



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todster
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05:32:50 Feb 28 2008
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I agree with wolfspirits thry are different....



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DemonicVampireDragon
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08:57:36 Feb 28 2008
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i dont see no difference they both seem to be the same to me personally



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mystikalmoon15
mystikalmoon15

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00:16:17 Feb 29 2008
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There is a lot of simarlarity to some brances of wicca and Native American Rituals ect.



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Kontradiction
Kontradiction

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00:27:41 Feb 29 2008
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different planes, same destination. there is nothing new under the sun. what we see and use now has been borrowed and modified to each religion's "specs".




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10241024
10241024
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04:03:50 Feb 29 2008
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I think it is up to the individual. Most religions have borrowed from others. Most belief systems are that way also.



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BloodDrenchedRose
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23:46:25 Feb 29 2008
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If they do I'm sure they change it around to their own beliefs



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Oceanne
Oceanne
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01:11:09 Mar 01 2008
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Right,and thats how corruption begins...



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Oceanne
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01:18:42 Mar 01 2008
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Anyway,I had found an interview you might like to read about this...

http://www.witchology.com/contents/interviews/witchcraft_bizarre_magazine.php



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raven001
raven001

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02:27:17 Mar 01 2008
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hmm, interesting.



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YourEternalKiss
YourEternalKiss
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06:52:53 Mar 01 2008
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I am Navajo, but i also pratice Wicca. I have seen cerimonies of both and have seen some different things and some things that differ little.



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VR System
VR System

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06:52:53 Mar 01 2008
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Mar 01 2008  •

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