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Can it matter for the soul what happens with your body when you die?
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Pantervamp
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01:01:05 Sep 27 2008
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I have started to wonder if the way you choose to do after you die will affect the afterlife? Some be burried as they are , some be burned to ash and burried and some get the ash spreaded with the wind. Do you think it will matter for your soul what be done with the died host?




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SireZombie
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02:19:55 Sep 27 2008
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Well when you die your soul no longer needs the shell of the body that has passed on. So I feel that it does not matter what you do with the body when you die, whether it be cremated (burned) or if your buried. it is just an empty shell the way I was taught and I believe.



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Trivia
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02:41:39 Sep 27 2008
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I think that the body is just the shell for the soul. The soul travels on without it. I am curious to know what happens then.



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TepesEnigma
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05:13:31 Sep 27 2008
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The body is but a husk. A physical, fininte thing. The soul is spirital and infinite. What happens to the body, has no bearing on the soul. If you belive in that sort of thing, that is.



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DemianA
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05:38:37 Sep 27 2008
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If the soul is not connected to the body after death then why do so many souls hang out in cemetaries? When a house is haunted why do they discover a body buried in the basement? And why do ghosts often resemble the body which they left behind? This seems to indicate there is still a connection in some cases between the quick and the dead. Would you be concerned if you were murdured and dumped into a hole in the basement floor? Would you attempt to notify someone living from the spirit world about your body in the basement if you were able? Why?



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LilyOfTheLabyrinth
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05:50:48 Sep 27 2008
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Well it is true that the body is just a shell to help the soul survive on earth. And after you die the soul does not need it. But depending on the soul and how attached they were to the shell depends sometimes. But the soul does changes after passing when emotions are not available to the soul. So I suppose.....It is best to be burned to ash and returned to the earth, but that is just my personal opinion.



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RootedinEvil
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06:00:22 Sep 27 2008
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As everyone else is saying here... you are burying or cremating a BODY, not a spirit, not a soul. I mean, if we were that connected to our bodies... there would have never been an afterlife in belief-systems across the world... how could there be as bodies are obviously still and unmoving as being dead involves. Your body can't 'walk' into this afterlife, and if you can understand that, you must know it is not the body that matters at all.

Your body dies, get rid of the body! 'You', are free.



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DemianA
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08:00:18 Sep 27 2008
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Well I want to make damn sure that my body is cremated. There is nothing left but ashes. A body can slowly disintegrate in the grave, especially with a sealed metal coffin inside of a concrete vault. I would prefer not to have my mortal remains buried, I believe it prevents the soul from escaping. Even with cessation of vital signs and a flat eeg, we do not know when the soul is liberated.



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SatanKimi17
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08:03:53 Sep 27 2008
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i think it doesn't matter what happens to the body after you die becasue your soul flys free.



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xTigressx
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09:32:51 Sep 27 2008
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I dont think it matters because the soul leaves as soon as you pass away.



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Beastt17
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23:43:52 Sep 27 2008
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I'm sure I don't understand how that's supposed to work. How do you have a physical appearance if you're no longer physical?

The way you look is based upon your physical self. Physical photons bouncing from your physical body and into the physical eyes of another physical person where the photons strike physical rods and cones which generate a physical signal transported along the physical optic nerve to the physical brain which interprets the signals as a physical image.

When you remove the physical, the whole process goes down the tubes. So how is one able to have any "look" after they're dead, aside from the appearance of their dead physical body?



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mysticwinds
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23:47:19 Sep 27 2008
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I believe as many do here. Our body is just a shell to communicate with each other. After death it leaves the body....maybe to the light.



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SexBloodPain
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23:51:10 Sep 27 2008
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There are many things that can happen to your soul after your body dies. Mostely depending on your beliefes.



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Ravena
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00:09:19 Sep 28 2008
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I don't think it matters what happens to your body
it just depends on what you beleive



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xxBillyxx
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00:38:46 Sep 28 2008
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i dont think it matters, as your soul separates from your body when you die...the body is merely a shell



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Beastt17
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02:43:02 Sep 28 2008
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Okay. I'm curious, what part of our known reality relies at all on our beliefs? Reality is what it is, regardless of what we believe. We might believe our home is impervious to fire. But when a fire happens, it doesn't care what we believed. It never has...

...ever!

So from where does the idea come that reality will morph itself in accordance with our beliefs?



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lordxofxwar
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04:36:40 Sep 28 2008
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I would like my body to be buried, with all my organs and all, but I don't think it effects me in the after life what so ever.



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temporary2
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04:39:02 Sep 28 2008
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After death the body matters not that is why I am being cremated after death as there is no need for a grave.



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xXRoseBudXx
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06:04:08 Sep 28 2008
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in some countrys, it is believed that prepareing the body is part of the after life. and by prepareing the body helps the spirit on its journal.

i my self want to be cremated and sent in the ocean. to help this world in the circle of life that i left behind.



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AlexandriasAwakening
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09:13:35 Sep 28 2008
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I don't think it matters much what happens to your body when you die...your soul has left its shell and should be moving on to the next place it is destined to go...



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Languor
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10:08:38 Sep 28 2008
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By the time your body has passed on your soul has already gone.



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xTigressx
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10:10:05 Sep 28 2008
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It doesnt really matter how fast or quick someone died the soul would of left well beforehand and more then like stated it's new life.



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CrazyOne
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10:45:40 Sep 28 2008
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mmmm i dont think it does once your dead your soul
leaves your body.so it really does not matter



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EllaVert
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Ok, so our our bodies are just vessels for our souls. When we die, our souls leave our bodies. But, when someone speaks of seeing a ghost or spirit, they usually have some human like resemblance. Maybe this is because it's how our souls(with the help of our human bodies) saw that soul. Maybe we remember and recognize a soul we knew. Maybe our souls have a sense of recognition that has nothing to do with the physical body, but the only way the physical body can interpret this recognition is through a sense our body is familial with, like sight. Maybe...



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Majique
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13:58:51 Sep 28 2008
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I don't believe what happens to our bodies after our death affects our souls. Even if say you wished to be cremated by family members bury you instead, can affect your soul. The body is just a vehicle to house the soul during its time here on this plane. Once it releases it from the body it matters not what happens to it for the soul is free to do what it is meant to do.



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Jynx
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15:49:06 Sep 28 2008
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Well in my opinion whatever happen to the body, the soul is not concerned with and only conscous see the body dying and conscious see this helplessly and after the death, conscious take resolve the unresulted act with it to next incarnation with the soul till it resulted.

Coz Conscious is always judge and it is much higher than the mind, nerves, senses and body. only conscious is able to take us to our supreme self.



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Beastt17
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16:41:49 Sep 28 2008
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It doesn't matter for the same reason that it doesn't matter if one takes their eyes off of a Leprechaun. Neither exist.

The soul is simply a primitive human construct stemming from man's inability to recognize himself as an animal. It remains difficult for many to realize that the sum total of their consciousness resides in their physical human body which will operate for only a finite period. Once it ceases to operate, the person ceases to exist.

If you look to man's history, you'll find that the idea of a spirit or soul was first constructed when humans still worshiped volcanoes, thought disease was caused by evil spirits and built various idles to endow with the abilities of nature which they didn't understand.

Dead is dead. Once you're dead the body doesn't matter because the soul is a persistent superstition. But in all the tens of thousands of years this superstition has persisted, there has never been an ounce of credible evidence presented to support the idea.



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Sinora
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19:19:50 Sep 28 2008
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Personally I would say no.

As to those who wonder why a likeness to the physical body is retained after it's death, I would say it's a case of recognition.



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Epik
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21:21:17 Sep 28 2008
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I've always wondered about that.
I don't THINK it matters. However, that won't stop me from being cremated and having my ashes scattered. I don't want any chance of waking up in the grave, unable to get out of my coffin.



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hottubmolly
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07:59:53 Sep 30 2008
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it would be great if you were right. the mechanics seems sound enough. many people would be happy at first especially if they had imaginations. but if they think infinity of this or that is their fate then its gonna get old after a while.

in order to maintain joy or fear for extended periods of time. we will pretend i didn't say time to describe infinity. anyway maintaining those emotions would be difficult, as a tolerance would build over"time". then imagine if you could go back to earth like existence after being increasingly joyful, sorry for offending anyone by voicing this opinion.



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Confusion
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22:48:11 Sep 30 2008
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The only thing that will effect your soul in the afterlife is what you do during life.


If you sin a lot, you'll go to hell.

If you don't, you'll go to heaven.

Or purgatory.



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onenadonlyraven
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23:13:20 Sep 30 2008
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as far as i know no your soul either dies with it or looks for a new body to be born into so that you are re born



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AdurnaLoivissA
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23:32:43 Sep 30 2008
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good one Panter!! I dont think that the body has anything to do with the spirit after death , i think it is really upto the person as to buried or burned , personally i am going to be burned as i am afraid of closed in spaces ...



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healer
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23:43:01 Sep 30 2008
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no, not at all.. once ur soul has left the body, the body means nothing



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VenusFire
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02:04:56 Oct 01 2008
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No, it really does not matter what happens to your body when you die. Your soul uses it for that life only. What does matter to the soul, is the way in which you die in the first place.

For instance, if you commit suicide, and die from it, the soul is instantly reincarnated, and will eventually be faced with the same demise....until it gets it right. Meaning, you have to eventually face the problem(s) that leads you commit suicide and make a decision.

Otherwise, the soul chooses it's next life...what sex they will be, kids or not, marry or not, what obstacles it will face, etc. This explains past lives, deja vue, gifts that we seem to be "born" with, and the term "old soul."

Let's make use of this life and have fun!!!

BB All, ~*V



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wensala
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03:19:40 Oct 01 2008
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If I were Egyptian I might need the body to be preserved for my Ka to rest in the after life.. But I'm not Egyptian so I agree the body is just an empty shell.. No onger important after death..



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Beastt17
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Such matter-of-fact assertions. It causes me to wonder if the followers of the Heaven's Gate beliefs would have spoken any less matter-of-factly despite their pure lack of demonstrable truth. I suppose they would have since they clearly believed without doubt. And yet, I find it more than just a little difficult to believe that following their suicides, they were transported to a space ship hiding behind the Hale-Bopp Comet and then to a paradisical planet across the universe.

Likewise, I imagine many used to speak quite matter-of-factly about Thor and Zeus, especially during seasons of monsoon rains and the heavy electrical activity present during that season.

Perhaps we should not forget that people have long spoken of mere assertions as though they were something other than assumptions and assertions, and yet there remains to be seen an iota of evidence to suggest that they were other than wrong.

Can anyone here show me a soul, visible or otherwise?



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Erinyes
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11:16:19 Oct 01 2008
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i do not think it matters.....unless a certian type of barrial is against ones personal religious beliefs



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RaineVampire
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03:11:49 Oct 02 2008
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the soul... the spirit....
that´s what we really are... and we travel from life to life, using different bodies...
when the body gets old and useless, we need to travel to a new one...
so id say that the spirit doesnt change when the body dies... on the contrary... then, it´s ready to go and look for a new body...



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Jesuis
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17:08:04 Oct 02 2008
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Beastt -

I have to agree with you. There isn't one shred of evidence to suggest that a soul exists. Evolutionary evidence suggests that humanoid burials began towards the end of the Neandertals existence. What this shows is not evidence of a soul, but rather the development of imagination. In other words, the neandertals "knew" that if this world existed, then they also "knew" that another one also had to exist.

It also suggests that neandertals developed the concept that there was some form of spark within animals (including themselves) which compelled them to procreate, eat, waste, desire, fear, etc. It was the question - what makes us alive?

The contributors of this thread take it for granted that humans have a soul, and I will not begrudge them that. It is for the same reasoning and evidence that the neandertals had.

Obviously, this is not the scientific evidence you are looking for regarding the presence of a soul, but I will ask you this: If I could provide you with "scientific" evidence of a soul - would you believe it to be a soul, or would you label it something other than?

Where do I stand on where the sould goes? I'm with Beastt, though I differ fundamentally. I don't believe in individual conciousness. We are all cut from the same cloth. The body is only a temporal container for our spirit, not our soul - which can never be contained. The body is simply a chemical soup.



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Cheetahcry
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17:59:17 Oct 02 2008
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Personally I belive that what happens to the body after we die doesn't matter as the body is just a container. The spirit or soul will wonder free until it finds a new host. That is just how it is to me and my beliefs.



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18:24:05 Oct 02 2008
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I believe that your soul is free but your soul is still a part of you when you pass on



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SireZombie
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19:03:51 Oct 02 2008
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As I said earilier in this thread I feel the body is just the shell, now as to why some haunts houses and then a body is forund I feel it is just that they want their remains to be taken care of properly, like if they were killed or something, yet I do not think it cause any soul not to move on.



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Cheetahcry
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20:41:50 Oct 02 2008
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I feel that the soul has no need for the body once the earthly body has died the reason for this is because the body is the container for the soul or the is like a host to the soul. Looking at it in another way is that you are the carrier of an organism, and you die. The organism will leave the dead host and go to another host or place.



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DarkTone
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20:56:56 Oct 02 2008
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I don't see why it would bother the soul if something happened to the body when the body is dead and the soul doesn't inhabit the body anymore.... What happens to your body is your personal preference.



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dabbler
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21:21:29 Oct 02 2008
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I believe the Metaphor one accepts personally helps in the process of dying, I believe that when we share our accepted metaphor with others we hold dear, that it can help them settle our lose. People saying such things as "They are onto their .. Happy Hunting ground, their Heaven, .. Even the Hell they created. All an applicable use of Metaphor, to cope with the departure from physical to metaphysical.

Not communicating ones accepted after life can really leave a close friend at lose ends sadly. It is the Christian that cannot accept the belief of their dear friend.. agonizing over their Demise in Hell..



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Nicnic
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12:48:39 Oct 04 2008
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I've always been told that at the very instance that death occurs the soul leaves the body. If that's the case then you could cremate or bury or stuff or pickle the body and it would have no effect whatsoever on the soul.



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Anise
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12:50:58 Oct 04 2008
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The soul is the essence of life, when it leaves the body becomes void. It returns to the Earth to support new life. Whatever we do will not change that.



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Beastt17
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07:56:05 Oct 05 2008
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How can the soul leave the body at the instant of death? Death doesn't occur in an instant. It's a progressive process. Depending on the mechanism, the first stage may be shock. That's when the body begins to shut down all unnecessary processes. Eventually the heart stops beating. Shortly thereafter, brainwave activity ceases. Up to that point, death is reversible. It's only when too many neurons become damaged or parts of the body which carry out vital processes are too damaged to function that death become irreversible.

So how would the soul (which still offers zero credible evidence that it exists), know exactly when to leave the body?



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Juggalita
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08:05:32 Oct 05 2008
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I don't think that it has anything to do with what happens to ur soul.

The body is just a host...doesn't really determine anything.

-Juggalette givin MMFWCL



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ReaperHunt
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08:16:00 Oct 05 2008
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Possibly. It will probably rely heavily on your religious beliefs and you thoughts on the afterlife.

Me personally I can't see my metaphysical self caring about what happens to my body when i have the entire universe to explore



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Beastt17
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08:22:23 Oct 05 2008
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I'm not sure I understand the assertion. Is it that our mere belief -- what we do or don't hold to be true, actually forms the truth for us when we die?

Has there ever been any evidence that reality, at any level, conforms to human thought? There exists tons of evidence that reality doesn't care what we think, it just goes on being reality. How could that change just because the body ceases to function?



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Pantervamp
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16:41:21 Oct 05 2008
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Good replyes everyone.

Beastt17 wrote
So how would the soul (which still offers zero credible evidence that it exists), know exactly when to leave the body?

i wonder the same.



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Sinora
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17:15:14 Oct 05 2008
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I would say the soul knows when to leave the body, when staying no longer serves a useful purpose.



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fuckxthisxshit
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17:16:46 Oct 05 2008
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I think what happens to you when you die doesnt matter...its all about what you believed while alive that counts



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Beastt17
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17:26:54 Oct 05 2008
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Sinora,

Re: "I would say the soul knows when to leave the body, when staying no longer serves a useful purpose."

But how does the soul know that staying no longer serves a useful purpose? I'm sure you've heard of people who are "killed instantly" and I'm fairly certain you've heard of people (especially in cases of cold-water drowning), who have been revived more than an hour after death. Yet if help doesn't reach them, they're not going to be revived.

So if there is any truth at all to the whole soul concept (despite the complete lack of supporting evidence), how does the soul know whether help will arrive after clinical death occurs and before biological death occurs?

Not just "Does it know", but; "How does it know?"



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Sinora
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19:31:32 Oct 05 2008
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Well Beastt17 I guess it's just a whole lot smarter than we are *smiles*.

It's not something I have any concious knowledge of.



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Beastt17
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20:00:42 Oct 05 2008
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Noting that intelligence is not equal to, nor does it lend to powers of prediction, it would seem that the only answer which doesn't exclude the existence of the soul is that it somehow has the ability to predict the future. This is something which we (physical people), seem to lack, regardless of intellect.

And yet it is asserted that the soul is our true self. It is said that the soul is who we are without the body. So how does the soul have predictive powers we lack?

It seems that when people talk about what the soul is, it's their inner-most self, their person, who they really are. But when speaking of the abilities of the soul, it suddenly becomes something quite different and far more capable than the person it's supposed to be.

Such a cascading failure of logical premises is the earmark of an illogical assertion. At each level, when one tries to trace the illogical back to the logical, sizable gaps begin to appear. These gaps are how we can tell the difference between truth and false-hoods.



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Sinora
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20:10:13 Oct 05 2008
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How about thinking of humans here and now being a small part of the soul ?

As if the soul itself is a many faceted diamond.



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normski
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23:46:55 Oct 05 2008
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onceya soul leaves ya body its just an empty husk so no i dont think it matters what happens to it



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Daileus
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01:08:50 Oct 06 2008
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No it doesn't matter how you die or hoe your body is cared for afterwords. Reason being the moment you exhale your last breath of air, you spirit/soul is free. I think it pretty mch just flies away.



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Beastt17
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07:28:41 Oct 06 2008
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Under the assumption that the soul is many-faceted and we, as biological beings are uni-faceted, then what we are now would be but a tiny part of our soul. Following such conjecture to the obvious, it seems reasonable to suggest that we would hardly recognize ourselves and friends who like our singular biological facet, might be appalled by seeing the whole package.

As an analogy, one might look to the perspective of Eva Braun when considering Adolf Hitler. She likely found him to be loving, caring and generous from her more singular point of view. When perceived from a more multi-faceted view, he's thought of as being more of a monster. Of course it might also be said that the reverse is true -- that Eva would have observed facets of Hitler unknown to most of the world, and therefore, have a more well-rounded perspective. Either way, the man would hardly be recognizable to those of either viewpoint, if observed from the opposite view-point.

Hence, if the conjecture proves true, we have little idea who we really are in the form of a soul.

Or... souls simply don't exist.



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Daileus
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08:03:24 Oct 06 2008
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that is theory there is no real proof to the contrary. Only oppinions. I don't understand your reasoning. How does how Eva Braun's perception of Adolf Hitler stand to show that souls do not exist? Please elaborate



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Beastt17
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08:47:51 Oct 06 2008
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It's all right above your post in the thread. But to try to briefly recap, it's obvious that the assertions made for the soul endow it with abilities and capabilities not possessed by humans. Therefore, it was suggested that perhaps the soul had many facets while the biological human has only one.

The Eva/Adolf example was simply an analogy to show that Eva's perceptions of Adolf were highly different than those of most of the world today. She knew facets of him we likely do not.

So the point was that if the soul is multi-faceted while the biological individual is uni-faceted, it's obvious that we would likely not recognize ourselves as a soul, just as we would not recognize Hitler from Eva's view and she would likely not recognize him from ours.

As for evidence, many people seem to want to turn the principle of evidence 180° from logical when they wish to assert the existence of that for which there is no evidence. The vast majority of us would likely agree that we don't believe in Leprechauns, fairies, 6-foot pink grasshoppers, 50-pound sentient purple pickles, microscopic furry elephants or anti-light bulbs which suck up all of the light from a room when activated.

We disbelieve in those things because there is no credible evidence that they exist, just as there is no credible evidence that souls exist. That which doesn't exist leaves neither evidence of its existence (because it doesn't exist), or evidence of it's lack of existence (again, because it doesn't exist). Only that which exists provides evidence. When there is no evidence, the rational and logical conclusion is that the proposed entity doesn't exist. Never has anything ever been confirmed to exist for which there was no evidence -- never.

And the claim that we simply haven't found the evidence "yet" becomes rather dry when you consider the tens of thousands of years of unevidenced assertion, accompanied by vast searches for evidence, all of which have failed. It's also appropriate to consider the source of the original claims of the existence of an individual's consciousness beyond the death of their body. It's an ancient idea, assembled by primitive people in an attempt to support the belief that their consciousness is somehow more significant than the whole of the universe itself and therefore, not tied to their physical body. Yet no credible evidence exists to support this ancient, primitive assertion.

Taking all of this into account, it would stand to reason that what happens to the body after death has no effect on the soul because reason strongly suggests that the soul itself doesn't exist. The most likely appeal for so many to believe it does is simply that it's a popular belief (thereby granting peer-agreement), and because believers assume they have more to gain from believing it exists (such as eternal life), than by adhering to the same standards they apply to nearly everything else in their lives, and recognizing that the total lack of credible evidence for the existence of an entity, is very strong evidence that the entity most likely doesn't exist.



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Daileus
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I think you don't clearly understand the definition of a soul. I understand your point and yes it is a very good point. A persons soul is the energy that is inside of us. Remember you said it yourself many times. When we pass that energy goes somewhere. Sure it doesn't stay the same, it completely changes form. Thus a soul. When someone is brain damaged, it is the brain damaged (the body damaged) not the soul. Souls have nothing to do with religion. At least not to me. All living things carry energy. And energy never dies, just changes form that is scientific fact. Now as for saying that a soul is some form of ghost inside of everyone that is released when we die......I don't think so. But as for a soul. I have one. I think some of sense them, and some of us don't. Call me crazy, tell me I'm wrong i don't care. I like science yes, but science isn't everything. And faith in science alone is rather close minded.

here is the best example I can come up with at 5:30 AM. lol. A person that is completely blind can sense when someone is in the room with them. the person crept in and made absolutely no noise what so ever. But the blind person still cried our "who's there?" How can they know this? It is instinct. The blind person can sense the persons presence. i believe that for some people it is the same with their soul. =)



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Daileus
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10:35:13 Oct 06 2008
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I meant; but the blind person still cries out "who's there?" my keyboard is really messed up I'm sorry.



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Sinora
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13:20:37 Oct 06 2008
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Yes Beastt17, sometimes is seems to me that we have little idea of who/what we really are.

Certainly some may find that to be a frightening thing, I don't.



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FALSExCURE
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16:30:11 Oct 06 2008
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Our soul just resides in our body while on earth



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Beastt17
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16:52:50 Oct 06 2008
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Re: "A persons soul is the energy that is inside of us."

One of the things I've commented on many times is that people first claim the spirit is non-physical, then turn around and claim that it's energy. Both cannot be true.

Energy is physical. It's a definite part of the physical world and a second state of matter. If you take the speed of light, (roughly 299,792,458 meters per second), and square that, you get 89,875,517,873,681,764. That number is known as C^2 (C-squared). If you multiply any quantity of mass by C^2, you get the amount of energy which is equivalent to the mass. In other words...

E = MC^2

What that equation tells us is that mass and energy are the same thing. C^2 is simply the conversion factor. One can think of mass as miles and energy as feet. They're both distance. The conversion rate is 5,280, (Feet = Miles * 5280). Energy and mass work the same way except the conversion factor is 89,875,517,873,681,764.

So mass and energy are two sides of the same coin -- two states of the same thing. And both are strictly physical. So if one claims that the soul is non-physical, then claims that it is energy, they're contradicting themselves.

To simplify this, just remember that nothing other than the physical has ever been confirmed to exist -- ever. So if anyone wants to define the soul as a non-physical entity which is energy, they are the ones that don't understand because energy is physical.
---

Re: "A person that is completely blind can sense when someone is in the room with them. "

Often a person with sight can do the same thing. There's nothing mysterious about this. It can be as simple as a barely detectable noise (it's not possible to walk into a room without making some level of noise), a vague shadow on the wall, or perhaps even an odor. Even the breathing of another person may register in the subconscious while we're not certain we hear anything in the conscious mind. We don't always consciously recognize these subtle signals for what they are, but our brain does process these things and matches the patterns against past experiences. Suddenly, we get the "feeling" that we're not alone because our brain is processing signals through our senses that we're not fully aware are there.

But the power of suggestion is just as effective. Try this. Sit to one side of a room or even the corner and face the nearest wall. Whatever you do, don't turn around. Think about the fact that I'm there, watching you -- standing several feet behind you. Now close your eyes but don't stop thinking about me being there, my intent unrevealed.

How long does it take before you start to feel like there is someone watching you? The power of suggestion, especially when it feels potentially threatening, is very persuasive. And many times when we feel this and begin to focus on it we become so convinced that we turn and see no one. The rational conclusion is that you scared yourself into believing you were being watched. A less rational conclusion is that someone or something was actually there. This is often what happens when people claim to have "sensed a presence". Rather than recognizing that they were simply wrong, they insist that they couldn't have been wrong and that something really was there.

Belief in that which is refuted by reality is being close-minded. Belief in everything you're told, even when it doesn't make sense is being open-minded. I try to shoot for being rationally minded.


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Jesuis
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17:18:13 Oct 06 2008
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Beastt-

We have two types of energy - kinetic and potential.

Potential energy is the amount of energy a mass is eligible to produce if acted upon by another force.

Kinetic energy is ultimately the release of that potential energy, or a realization of it (in keeping with your comments regarding reality).

The human body, without life, is simply an object. It has potential to move if acted upon by another force. In our case, multiple "forces" act upon our bodies which provide us with life. The near infinite number of combinations of these forces, together with additional forces, provides each animal with it's own concept of reality. This is the animal's consciousness and reasoning.

In the case of TBI (which I'm sure you will use as a rebuttal) we can see that part of the body is damaged and/or missing. We could conclude that the body of the individual is less impacted by soul. The question you've been asking, however, is not how much is in the person but whether it is in the person. So, yes, a TBI patient still has soul. How much is irrelevant.

In anticipation of another arguement, I will concede that the consciousness of a person resides in the brain - a physical manifestation. However, the neuro system is the first part of fetal development, which means that we may conclude the following - If the soul were to reside anywhere in the body, it would doubtless be in the brain.



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GothicPrincess07
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17:39:14 Oct 06 2008
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I Agree With WarriorinHell

Well when you die your soul no longer needs the shell of the body that has passed on. So I feel that it does not matter what you do with the body when you die, whether it be cremated (burned) or if your buried. it is just an empty shell the way I was taught and I believe.



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Beastt17
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20:10:50 Oct 06 2008
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Re: "We have two types of energy - kinetic and potential."

I agree that we have both kinetic and potential energy. There is potential energy in the food we eat. When our cells break the carbon-carbon bonds in the nutrients and replace them with carbon-oxygen bonds, the result is a surplus of energy because it requires less energy to maintain a carbon-oxygen bond than it does to maintain a carbon-carbon bond. A by-product is carbon-dioxide. Our bodies then store this energy (converting it back to kinetic energy), by utilizing it to join an additional phosphate atom to a molecule of ADP (adenosine diphosphate). When the body needs to utilize this energy to cause a muscle cell to contract, a molecule of ATP (adenosine triphosphate), is converted back to ADP by breaking one of the phosphate bonds, thereby releasing the energy. The entire process is purely understood and purely physical.

Energy is physical. So if the soul is energy, it's physical. And if it's physical, then it's detectable and measurable. Yet, in a time when we can count neutrinos, accelerate sub-atomic particles to near the speed of light and smash them together and then analyze the debris, people are still insistent that this supposed energy (the soul), does exist, and simply has not been objectively detected yet. Given the relative simplicity of detecting energy, the assertion borders on the absurd. And at the same time we see people proclaiming that the soul is not physical, it is also being equated to energy, which is purely physical whether one is speaking of kinetic energy or potential energy. It's all physical.

When speaking of TBI, you jump from the confirmed to mere conjecture as though the two somehow fit together. The traumatic injury to the brain fully explains the changes seen in the patient. There is no missing factor, no distortion of energy or any other variation. The frontal lobe of the brain is known to regulate a person's conscious thought, memory, intelligence, concentration, behavior, and personality.
http://www.bryantpaincenter.com/injury35.html

There is no implication or evidence of anything known as "soul" and nothing left unexplained.

As with your jump from the objectively confirmed to pure conjecture concerning TBI, the same thing is demonstrated when you speak of embryonic development. You conclude that if the neural system is the first to develop, this must be the center for the soul. One could make up any word... "okloub" for instance, and provide it with whatever qualities one might desire, and assert that it must reside within the neural system. That doesn't make it true. In fact, in light of the complete absence of supporting evidence, you have nothing but blind assertion. Blind assertion unaccompanied by objective evidence is simply story-telling.

And if you wish to assert that the soul were to reside in the brain, (or anywhere else in the body), you're confining a supposed non-physical concept to a physical location. If the non-physical did exist, why would it be at all affected by something as purely physical as space-time?

Again; nothing other than the physical has ever been confirmed to exist. The rest is simply conjecture, blind-assertion and myth.

Consider this for a moment; what if the guy with the evidence on his side is actually correct? ;)


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seawitch
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20:22:44 Oct 06 2008
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your bodys just a shell so i really dont think it matters what happens to your body



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Daileus
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We have considered your oppinion Beast. It isn't that you are wrong, I most certainly am not aying that. I just believe that it is important to have faith in more than just science alone. Not that I don't think you are right, quite possibly you are. But there may be no proof to back up the existence of a soul, there is no real proof that scratches out the concept either. Science doens't explain everything. We are on this earth for a reason...we came from somewhere. And I believe that after death we go somewhere else. Just my opinion doll. =)



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dabbler
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21:22:46 Oct 06 2008
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Source: Bill Bryson

View Full Version : Rebirth and reincarnation as part of the scientific worldview.
Watson
1st March 2008, 02:01
You may think it odd but you are 3.8 billion years old thanks to natures capacity for rebirth and reincarnation.....

To be here now, alive in the 21st century and smart enough to know it, you also had to be the beneficiary of an extraordinary string of biological good fortune. Survival on Earth is a surprisingly tricky business. Of the billions and billions of species of living things that have existed since the dawn of time, most - 99.99 per cent, it has been suggested - are no longer around. Life on Earth, you see, is not only brief but dismayingly tenuous. It is a curious feature of our existence that we come from a planet that is very good at promoting life but even better at extinguishing it.

The average species on Earth lasts for only about four million years, so if you wish to be around for billions of years, you must be as fickle as the atoms that made you. You must be prepared to change everything about yourself - shape, colour, species affiliation, everything - and to do so repeatedly. That’s much easier said than done, because the process of change is random. To get from ’protoplasmal primordial atomic globule’ (as Gilbert and Sullivan put it) to sentient upright modern human has required you to mutate new traits over and over in a precisely timely manner for an exceedingly long while. So at various periods over the last 3.8 billion years you have abhorred oxygen and then doted on it, grown fins and limbs and jaunty sails, laid eggs, flicked the air with a forked tongue, been sleek, been furry, lived underground, lived in trees, been as big as a deer and as small as a mouse, and a million things more. The tiniest deviation from any of these evolutionary imperatives and you might be licking algae from cave walls, be lolling walrus-like on some stony shore, or disgorging air through a blowhole in the top of your head before diving sixty feet for a mouthful of delicious sandworms.

Not only have you been lucky enough to be attached since time immemorial to a favoured evolutionary line, but you have also been extremely - make that miraculously - fortunate in your personal ancestry. Consider the fact that for 3.8 billion years, a period of time older than the earth’s mountains and rivers and oceans, every one of your forbears on both sides has been attractive enough to find a mate, healthy enough to reproduce, and sufficiently blessed by fate and circumstances to live long enough to do so. Not one of your pertinent ancestors was squashed, devoured, drowned, starved, stuck fast, untimely wounded, or otherwise deflected from its life’s quest of delivering a tiny charge of genetic material to the right partner at the right moment to perpetuate the only possible sequence of hereditary combinations that could result - eventually, astoundingly, and all too briefly - in you.

Bill Bryson - A Short History of Nearly Everything

....or to be more precise, your genetic code is 3.8 billion years old.



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Beastt17
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21:33:39 Oct 06 2008
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Again, "proof" is not only a bad word, it's completely inaccurate. What you lack is evidence -- even the slightest objective evidence. The entire assertion rests upon the claims of people -- people who believed that spirits caused disease, that the Earth was the point of ultimate importance in the universe and therefore, at its center and that natural catastrophes all had supernatural causes.

They have been found to be incorrect on every count. But one's personal consciousness is not at risk when they subscribe to vulcanology rather than volcano gods. They risk nothing personal to accept that lightning is the result of a charge differential between cloud and ground (or cloud to cloud) or that disease is best countered with medial procedures rather than rituals. And it seems to be that desire to have some conscious part that survives death which drives people to accept the primitive conclusions drawn by people who had nothing but subjectivity upon which to seek answers.

Trying to assert that the lack of evidence against takes the place of evidence for avoids pure logic. If something doesn't exist, it can leave no evidence of its non-existence. If it were a valid premise to assert that because there is no evidence contrary to a given concept, then any concept you might wish to develop from the basins of your imagination are instantly valid, simply because there exists no evidence that your imagined concepts doesn't exist. What evidence do you have that Luke Skywalker doesn't exist? What evidence do you have that Darth Vader isn't a real person or humanoid being in some distant part of the universe? Does your lack of evidence against his existence serve as evidence that he might exist?

As for faith; no one should have faith in science or anything else. If you believe, it should be based on evidence -- objective evidence. It's the only thing that has ever lead man to a demonstrably correct conclusion about anything.

Faith is simply believing what you want, just because you want to; evidence be damned.

I don't have faith in science. I have evidence that it is the method by which we can find truths.



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Jesuis
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22:00:02 Oct 06 2008
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Beastt -

You caught me on the logic. My bad. My response will be brief because I'm running out of time.

The brain is a hot bed of electrical energy. It controls our automatic nervous system as well as our voluntary reactions. I say the seat, but the brain is truly a conductor of the "soul", i.e. energy. It being the first part of the human development (or any animal for that matter) requires an energy flow to it.

If you are looking for an appendange, a silver bullet, something that can be ripped apart from the body, held out in the open and accused of being the soul, you're not going to find it. The soul is a constant flow. It is not one specific thing. It would be like taking a single organ and calling it the entire body.

Yes, the organ is a physical thing which has a single place within the body. You can't view the soul that way. The soul resides in and about us. It connects us as humans, it connects us as Earthlings, it connects us to the universe, it flows through us, it is us. To ask for one singular thing and attach a name to it regarding it as a soul is, as I have said, a fool's errand.



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Daeva
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Does it really matter? Some believe there is a soul and others do not. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence in NDEs that can't be overlooked and then there is the fact we are made of energy. There is no reason to believe that when the part we think of as physical (which it really isnt but at a lower vibration) stops running so to speak that it allows the release of the essence since there is nothing left to hold it in place. Some call that a cord that breaks attached to the body. Some say they have seen it on OBEs but still it is conjecture. There is enough for me to believe that there is some part of me that goes on to explore other lives or places in the universe or for that matter multiverse.

So do the cheapest most cost effective thing with my body but what is done should be decided by the living because it is only those who will wish to cherish the remains.



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starry
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01:50:14 Oct 07 2008
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I think it depends on your religion or what you believe happens to your soul.



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Daileus
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02:33:16 Oct 07 2008
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beast don't get me wrong. I'm not a fool and I am highly educated. but my definition of a soul apparently differs from yours very much so. And besides, if science prooved that the sky wasn't blue would you believe it? Science is not everything. I don't need proof or a claim to back me up. I am secure with my beliefs. =)



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BadAlice
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03:15:17 Oct 07 2008
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I can't help but see it as a matter of the lack of electric impulses throughout a body leads to death. The package doesn't matter anywhere near as much as the contents. While some religions believe a person needs to be whole in order to have a full afterlife -- but who's to say? The living knows what is needed in the afterlife? Personally, I would rather donate and help someone else than harbor all my innards just in case I need to break wind in the afterlife.


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Kimberley
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06:19:51 Oct 07 2008
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i think for some it matters
you get attached to your physical form
maybe where it goes your soul goes



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Beastt17
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08:21:42 Oct 07 2008
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Jesuis,

First let me say that I'm very appreciative that we can discuss this matter without the venom sometimes displayed when people disagree. Discussion, observation and objectivity are the only means by which truth can be reached. And if truth is not the goal, then I would have to ask what is.

Re: "The brain is a hot bed of electrical energy."

Agreed. As well as chemically generated energy. The brain utilizes much of energy used for the body.
---

Re: "It controls our automatic nervous system as well as our voluntary reactions."

Again I agree. This, as well as the prior statement, are well-evidenced and demonstrated.
---

Re: "I say the seat, but the brain is truly a conductor of the "soul", i.e. energy."

Here is where you fall from the wagon. You have no evidence, no demonstration, not even a logical premise. It's simply assertion at this point. You could have replaced the assertion with "The brain is truly a conductor of South American bird calls"
and be no less supported in your statement.

And you're still referring to the soul as energy so I must assume you believe the soul to be purely physical while most here claim it is non-physical. If it's physical, why is it not noticed at the time of death?

What I ask is that you note that whenever you speak of the nature or properties of the soul, you do so from a position of blind, unsupportable assertion. And your assertions often conflict with the blind assertions of others who believe in the existence of the soul.

When people resort to blind assertion -- "believe it because I believe it" -- they should recognize that never has any such system ever lead man to truth. Men were told to believe that spirits caused disease and many did believe it. Men were told that volcanoes were sentient and angry and many believed it. They were told that non-physical entities existed who demanded burnt flesh and many believed it. Men were told that if a patient died following a blood transfusion, it meant that the donor was evil. Many believed it.

The common thread, of which you should take note, is that all of these claims were based on blind assertion and all of them were incorrect. That which is based on nothing but blind assertion lacks merit as any kind of compelling statement. And it shouldn't have any compelling value because anyone can make up anything about any supposed entity, being, quality, or need.

In your day to day life, you require evidence. If an airline wants to sell you a more expensive ticket, you want to know what you'll get for your money. You'll likely want to see something in writing or get the name of the person selling you the ticket. You'll at least take heart in the knowledge that if the ticket is not as advertised, you'll have legal recourse. If I were to tell you that gravity is going to fail on Wednesday the 22nd of this month, you'd be wise to ask for an explanation. If I told you that the constant expansion of the universe has reached a critical point and the warping of space time is going to become insignificant in the attraction between objects, you'd be wise to wonder why you've not seen any mention of this on the news or the web. If I tell you that I "just know it", how compelling would you find that?

Now imagine yourself as a small child. Your parents, whom I assume you trust, tell you that at some time in the future, gravity will cease to attract bodies of mass. How much skepticism are you going to hold? Perhaps your parents know other people who believe the same thing, despite having zero evidence to support the claim. You might well reach adulthood still believing that gravity is going to fail in your lifetime. You might well be driven to attempt to persuade others that it's true. But it's not true, no matter how much you, your parents or your parent's friends believe it. That which survives as a belief, only through subjective assertion is never true.

Think about how we find truths. Do we simply make up the idea that there is a tremendous amount of unobserved matter in the universe? Or do we notice that the rotation of spiral galaxies demonstrates a greater gravitational attraction than can be accounted for via the known matter and only then begin our search for the hidden matter? Do we simply assert that "once upon a time", the universe was clustered into a tiny speck of matter, or do we follow the evidence to that conclusion? Did we just make up a particle and decide to call it a "neutrino" or did we note that the decay of a neutron into a proton appeared to violate a well-substantiated and fully evidenced law of physics (law of conservation) unless some, as yet unconfirmed, particle existed? Did we make up dinosaurs and then go in search of their fossilized remains? Or did we find the remains and piece them together, leading us to conclude that dinosaurs used to live on Earth?

In every discovery of truth, we start with the evidence, and allow it to lead us to the conclusions. Spurious conclusions of subjective fancy simply are not truth. They never lead us to truth.

There is a known and demonstrable constant in the finding of truth. It always runs evidence to conclusion, never conclusion to evidence. And in this case, all you have is a conclusion. After tens of thousands of years, there remains no objective (credible), evidence.

Truth is never reached by following blind assertions, attempting to tag selected scraps of non-linked subjective evidence and then insisting that it's true. Truth is reached by following evidence. And when it comes to souls and many other common beliefs, there simply isn't any evidence to support the idea. There is no more cause to believe in souls than there is to believe that earthquakes are caused by giant heat-loving moles near the Earth's core, shaking off a chill.

The only difference is that belief in souls is popular, and offers people a means by which to believe they can escape death. Giant moles at the core of the Earth offers neither peer-support (which would lead to ridicule for anyone believing in them), nor a claimed profit for the believer. Aside from that, one is no more absurd or unevidenced than the other.

The most alarming part is that I'm the odd man out, simply for believing in compliance with the evidence, rather than subscribing to an ancient superstition developed by relatively primitive and ignorant (note: proper use of "ignorant"), men.



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Beastt17
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09:05:08 Oct 07 2008
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Re: "if science prooved that the sky wasn't blue would you believe it?"
Well, in a manner of speaking, the sky isn't blue. There is nothing inherently blue about the light that enters our atmosphere. But the impurities in the atmosphere react more often with the smaller wavelengths of visible light (the blues), resulting in greater refraction of those wavelengths. So we perceive the sky to be blue, even though the light entering the atmosphere isn't blue.

Think of it much like if you were to hold a piece of blue glass in front of your eye and then look at your friend's face. Is your friend blue, or does the refractive quality of the glass only make him appear blue? Park a white car next to a blue wall on a sunny day. The side of the car near the wall will receive the light reflecting off the wall and it will appear blue. Now move the vehicle away from the wall. Is it blue?

We know why the sky appears to be blue due to adherence to the objective principles of the scientific method. And although I would again suggest caution in using the word "prove" concerning anything outside of math, science has aptly demonstrated both why the sky appears to be blue, and that it isn't really blue. So I believe you have your answer.
---

Re: "Science is not everything."

It occurs to me that I see this claim repeatedly. But I've also asked repeatedly that anyone provide even a single example of when a subjective claim has conflicted with objective observation, and the subjective claim turned out to be right while the objective observation was wrong. So far, I've not seen even one attempt at a response. When it comes to discoveries of truth concerning reality, the method employed by science really is in a class by itself. Nearly everything man has learned about reality in the time since the scientific method was developed and refined, has been due to adherence to the scientific method.
---

Re: "I don't need proof or a claim to back me up. I am secure with my beliefs. =)

Obviously, the members of the Heaven's Gate cult were quite secure with their beliefs as well. In case you don't remember them, they were the people who believed that the Hale-Bopp Comet was hiding a space craft which was going to transport them to Nirvana upon taking their own lives. They demonstrated their level of security when all 38 of them committed suicide.

The members of the People's Temple were secure enough in their beliefs to leave their home country and flee to Guyana where they met their deaths -- over 900 of them; due to suicide and murder.

The Branch Davidians... the list is very long and very sad.

Being confident in one's beliefs is in no way any kind of evidence that those beliefs hold any validity. Only objective evidence provides validity to any assertion. Think about all the people who have lived on Earth since the beginning of human history and all of the gods and beliefs they've held as truth. Think about the fact that many of these beliefs contradict many of the other beliefs. Therefore, it's simply not possible for them to have all been correct. Look back only a few thousand years: if those people were correct, then the vast majority of people in the past few thousand years have been incorrect. Remember that the vast majority of these people were so secure in their beliefs that they sacrificed their own children for those beliefs, donated what little wealth they may have had for those beliefs and took the lives of non-believers out of the security they held for their beliefs. And the vast majority of them, believed that humans have a soul.

Never allow your level of security to be a suggestion of the validity to your beliefs. Popular opinion and doubtless belief both have long and notable histories of being quite incorrect.


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Jesuis
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15:31:27 Oct 07 2008
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Re: "I say the seat, but the brain is truly a conductor of the "soul", i.e. energy."

Here is where you fall from the wagon. You have no evidence, no demonstration, not even a logical premise. It's simply assertion at this point. You could have replaced the assertion with "The brain is truly a conductor of South American bird calls"
and be no less supported in your statement.

Actually, Beastt, yes my statement can be supported. It is indeed a conductor of electrical activity. It is the very basis of life. If your brain stops working, so does your heart. Even TBI patients still survive because of electrical impulses in the brain. The example of the fetus that I spoke of earlier requires electrical impulses from the mother to the neuro system in order to continue to grow in the womb. Therefore the neuro system, primarily the brain, does indeed conduct electrical impulses. It does not conduct South American bird calls unless that’s what you’re now calling electrical signals. Further, once the child is outside of the mother, all of the evidence you provided regarding energy production in the body is applicable to the functioning of the human brain and conduction of energy from one hemisphere to the other as well as throughout the rest of the body. It is not a blind assertion, it is consistently proven through science (even moreso now with the continued research on cloning)

Beastt
And you're still referring to the soul as energy so I must assume you believe the soul to be purely physical while most here claim it is non-physical. If it's physical, why is it not noticed at the time of death?

Yes, I do believe the soul to be physical. I believe it to be the total accumulation of energy that flows through the universe. The research to detect the loss of the soul at the time of death is inconclusive – primarily because of the fact that no one wants to broach that experiment again. I believe that if they were to do so, and conduct the experiments properly, it would show that there was NO inexplicable loss of weight, or "proof of a soul", at the time of death as was the original hypothesis. Read the Snopes article. THAT statement is a blind assertion, but one I’m sure you would agree with for more logical reasons.

Beastt
What I ask is that you note that whenever you speak of the nature or properties of the soul, you do so from a position of blind, unsupportable assertion. And your assertions often conflict with the blind assertions of others who believe in the existence of the soul.

Firstly, my conclusions are drawn from nearly two decades of reading, studying, and contemplation, which is probably why my assertions conflict with many common conceptions of the soul. And while I might be able to dredge up scientific evidence of my assertions, it would fail to impress you because you are so set on “not believing it”. That's fine. You don't need to believe what I'm spewing. However, what I ask YOU to note is that if you ask for proof, you are doing one of two things - looking for a viable answer because you really don't know, or you are trying to incite anger.


Beastt
The most alarming part is that I'm the odd man out, simply for believing in compliance with the evidence, rather than subscribing to an ancient superstition developed by relatively primitive and ignorant (note: proper use of "ignorant"), men.

We are so quick to dismiss the beliefs and studies of men from yesterday and label their discoveries as ignorant for the simple fact that we are here and they are not. Were I to tell you that Sir Isaac Newton, father of modern physics, created his Laws as a result of studying both Alchemy and Astrology – in which he never stopped believing, or perhaps that Albert Einstein’s fascination with the speed of light was spurred by his need to find God - of which he was convinced, you would certainly find the chink within my armor. Paracelsus, highly respected in the medical world for his medicinal expertise, is also the most referenced Alchemist of the 16th century. Wolfgang Pauli, who was a Physicist highly influential in the development of spin theory, was a devoted follower of Carl Jung, a Psychologist most famous for Alchemistic symbolism. Respected men, even still today, whose theories and assertions continue to hold strong for science but whose underpinnings were philosophic and religious in nature. And there are plenty more.


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Behomoth
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17:02:18 Oct 07 2008
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This has become a very heated debate. I wonder why. No one knows the answer about a soul. It is a name we use to describe something we believe may be the very core of our being that is incapsulated by the body. I find it futile to try to debate something when science at this stage doesn't even understand particles fully. They move around and are in just the right place when they are needed, voila. We aren't solid, we just think we are.

Aside from religious views I personally believe something lives on after the body perishes. At the time of death it is released. One can bicker over reincarnation but it is just a name used by a few cultures to describe something. How about reinstatement of essense, lol. No one knows these answeres even if they site science or any other guys or woman's point of view. That is all it is or there would be no debates on the topic. As far as the planet not existing over time who is to say we always come back here anyway. I think it is the ego that is speaking to think "Earth" is the center of all that exists. My opinion of course :)



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Beastt17
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19:12:52 Oct 07 2008
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Jesuis,

Re: "Actually, Beastt, yes my statement can be supported."

I note that you quote, "I say the seat, but the brain is truly a conductor of the "soul", i.e. energy." and then claim it can all be supported. Then the only part for which you provide support is, "The brain is a hot bed of electrical energy" and "It controls our automatic nervous system as well as our voluntary reactions", both of which received my full agreement. My disagreement is with the blind assertion, "the brain is truly a conductor of the 'soul'".

And that is what you can't support. I made that fairly clear.
---

Re: "Yes, I do believe the soul to be physical. I believe it to be the total accumulation of energy that flows through the universe."

So what can you offer other than the blind assertion that the soul is the accumulation of energy that flows through the universe?

Anyone can assert anything. What can you demonstrate?

Obviously, the experiment mentioned in the Snopes article was found to be fundamentally flawed. On that we seem to agree. Snopes, however, was very conservative in it's presentation of the failings of the methodology. Here are a couple who were less reserved in their assessment.

http://www.livescience.com/mysteries/061211_soul_weigh.html
http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2007/03/does-soul-weigh-21-grams.html
---

Re: "And while I might be able to dredge up scientific evidence of my assertions, it would fail to impress you because you are so set on 'not believing it'."

That's untrue. As I've asked all along, what evidence can you offer? I'm all about adhering to the evidence. So far, no one has offered anything of any credibility (objectivity). If you can dredge up objective evidence, then please do so.
---

Re: "I ask YOU to note is that if you ask for proof, you are doing one of two things -"

I never ask for "proof". "Proof" aside from alcohol and mathematics is an impossible standard. I've asked only for objective evidence. None has been offered.
---

Re: "We are so quick to dismiss the beliefs and studies of men from yesterday and label their discoveries as ignorant for the simple fact that we are here and they are not."

That has nothing to do with my reasons. Firstly, one must recognize that the first mumblings and beliefs regarding a soul or man's ability to somehow live on in consciousness, beyond his death, came from people with no concept of objectivity, no perception of demonstrable logic and who were demonstrably and incredibly superstitious. He with the best (most desirable), story, became accepted.

Unfortunately, due to the fact that so many still retain some of these superstitions and protect them to degrees of illogical bias, I'm prevented from producing specific examples of many cases. So I'll stick to the volcano gods, rain gods, drought gods, concepts of evil spirits in disease, etc. These people were devoid of reasonable assessment and they are the ones who first suggested an entity through which man was able to continue beyond death.

As for Einstein, it is true that he held a measure of theological belief, though certainly not what most theists hold today, during his time or during times prior to Einstein. But I ask you to note that for a man of such notoriety and absolute genius, he also had his share of failures. And when we look to those failures, we find a common thread. All of his failures were tied to his subjective beliefs. As long as he remained objective (which ruled out forms of theism), he did marvelous work. But when he began to appeal to his subjective ideas, the result was failure. This is evidenced in his "Cosmological Constant", which he developed to make his calculations fit the widely-held assumption that the universe was static. This was a subjective assumption but he didn't call it into question. Instead he adjusted his calculations to fit. He later called his his "greatest blunder".

For a man of such unmatched brilliance, it's sad that he died being considered out-dated and foolish after publishing his "Theory of Everything" which was a dismal failure. And the reason for that failure was his insistence that quantum mechanics was too convoluted to have been the way "God" would have designed the universe. He discounted Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle not because it failed objectively, but because he insisted that God would have kept the workings of the universe more tangible. He abandoned objectivity in favor of his subjective view of God, and the result was a paper which ignored quantum mechanics, violated his own Theory of General Relativity and bought him ridicule from the leading physicists of the day.

And while Einstein's calculations demonstrated the likelihood of black holes, Einstein's personal subjective opinion was that such constructs didn't actually exist. He was wrong. Whenever he abandoned the scientific necessity of objectivity, it resulted in failure.

As for Isaac Newton, the man was what many today would call a "religious zealot". Many today and in his time would also call him a "heretic". And he was well aware of this. He held many concepts to be true which your beliefs would hold to be false and he kept many of his beliefs under lock and key, entrusted only to his personal journals and his most trusted assistant. But Sir Isaac Newton is most remembered for his work in physics and when it came to physics, he relied upon the objective evidence and mathematics. And this is where his work shines.

Do you have objective evidence of souls?



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Languor
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23:55:46 Oct 07 2008
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the body is just a vessel and the soul is who we are. so when the body dieds the soul leaves the vessel. some move on to the next life but some stay behind for another chance of life.



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meanmelissa
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05:19:09 Oct 08 2008
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I feel it doesnt matter, whats ever is going to happen is going to happen either way.



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MizzRae
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05:37:06 Oct 08 2008
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When your body dies, your soul goes on. Thats the way i see it anyway. So, as to your question, no, what happens to you in LIFE affects the soul, but not what happens to the body.



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Sinora
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11:41:34 Oct 08 2008
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Personally I don't think that some of the comparisons used to demonstrate a point on this thread were necessary, at best they move things off topic and at worst imply insult.

However having read everything that has been written and even with my very little understanding of science I would have to agree with those who say there is no scientific evidence regarding souls.

That said, what if there was ? How would that affect what we know as free will ?

Is there a case even for saying that no scientific evidence will ever be found, for if it was what many regard as being crucial to their relationship with their God/Gods would be compromised ?



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Nightgame
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02:10:49 Oct 09 2008
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I have removed several posts where members chose to step away from polite debate and disagreement and instead insult each other. Do not do so again.





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Erinyes
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07:15:57 Oct 09 2008
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i do not think it would have any effect except for if it was against ones own personal religious beliefs but personally i think it does not effect the soul in any ways since it departs from the body before being burried or cremation,or so i believe.



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Beastt17
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08:33:33 Oct 09 2008
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Anansi,

Re: "String theory has not yet been conformed to exist either, but many scientists "believe" it does.

String Theory most certainly does exist. In fact, one of the most substantial problems with string theory is that there are actually five different versions that all exist. What doesn't exist is confirmation that any of the various versions of the theory are correct. They have, however, been tied together to form a singular theory called "M-Theory".

The problem is that you're working with two quite different concepts and trying to blur them into the same thing.

In the case of attempting to blend General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, the problem is that we're searching for an explanation that fits the evidence for Quantum Mechanics and also fits the evidence for General Relativity. The evidence most certainly does exist -- mountains of it.

In regard to the soul, the explanation is being offered for evidence which doesn't exist. In valid concepts, the evidence comes first, and then an explanation is sought to explain the evidence. You're trying to explain evidence which doesn't exist, without admitting the obvious given that the evidence is missing.

In the case of M-theory; The evidence exists. We're searching for an explanation which fits the evidence. This is the mark of science.

In the case of souls; The explanation exists. The search for evidence to fit the explanation has continued to yield negative results. This is the mark of superstition.

See the difference?
---

Re: "Length of the search is not relevant, evidence may be found in the near future, we simply do not know.

Time most certainly is a factor which should be considered. When one considers the relatively simplistic assertions made for the concept of the soul, evidence should be relative child's-play to find. When you have something which is first supposed to be localized to a physical biological entity, is claimed to leave that biological entity at the time of death, is proclaimed to be energy and to be able to interact with physical mass; finding evidence to confirm the assertion should require little more than about $100 worth of equipment and the knowledge held by the average high school physics student. Were such an entity to exist, finding evidence to support the assertion would be a yawn. You know where it is claimed to be, when it's said to depart from the location asserted, what it is and that it can interact with the physical.

If one were to suggest "Svenska rays" existed and were located at specific given points, departed those points at a predictable moment, were a form of energy and could interact with the physical, it would take but a few minutes to test the idea and proclaim that there was no support for the claim that Svenka rays exist. And until evidence can be found for a form of energy which is comparably well defined and detectable, there is no reason to label the assertion anything but "false".

And yet, that's exactly what is being suggested for the "soul". The only difference is that many people have already accepted the idea of a soul and believe they will evade death through their belief. So rather than applying the logical premise of evidence to reason, and noting the complete lack of supporting evidence, they jettison their usual methods of determining whether or not a concept holds merit, simply because they don't like the answer they receive.

When the only answer you will accept is that which you've already determined to be true, despite the lack of evidence, you have isolated yourself from the truth.

If I accepted belief in 50-foot long, feathered, flying worms and believed they existed only to transport me to Nirvana upon my death, and refused to accept the complete lack of evidence for such creatures, I'd be doing nothing different than what those who insist upon belief in the soul are doing.

No matter what form of testing is performed to detect these worms, the results continually come up negative. But rather than recognize that the negative results are providing the answer, I insist that I already know the answer and until the tests provide results which agree with my foregone conclusion, I just continue to assert that the tests are flawed or incapable of providing what I insist has to be truel simply because I will not allow myself to accept it as other than true. Such a practice is devoid of intellectual honesty.

So do you believe that 50-foot long, feathered, flying worms exist? If not, why not?
---

When you open the garage door and your car isn't inside where you left it, it's best to realize that your car has been taken, even if you dearly love your car. You can continue to search for evidence that the car is still there, but when all of your tests fail to provide evidence that the car is there, intellectual honesty demands that you accept the conclusion.

If you simply adore and cherish an amazing female acquaintance and hope passionately that she holds intense feelings of affection for you, it's best to recognize the evidence when she spits at you and tells you she finds you disgusting. Continuing to insist that she really does harbor feelings of intense fondness for you, despite the lack of evidence for such feelings is simply a form of denial. It demonstrates an inability to cope with realities you dislike.

The evidence isn't wrong. And given the relative simplicity of the assertion, were it to be accurate, the evidence would be overwhelming and painfully simple to confirm.

We live in an age when even particles so small that thousands of them can slip through an atom in a second and never collide with any of the atom's mass, can not only be detected, but accurately counted. We can do this because evidence suggests they should exist and that evidence was followed to the confirmation of their existence. It took only 26-years to confirm what the evidence suggested.

We can actually listen to the remnant background radiation of the universe from an event which occurred at least 13.7 billion years ago. We can map that radiation and demonstrate that it fits the conclusions of the theory drafted before the ability to map it was developed.

We can smash a stream of sub-atomic particles into another stream of sub-atomic particles and comprehensively analyze the debris which results.

Yet you want to assert that in tens of thousands of years, we're still unable to detect the blindingly simplistic evidence which would exist if souls were real.

There is simply no merit to be found in any such assertion.
---

Re: "You have no argument regarding the abstract, simply because there has not been evidence to it's existence yet does not mean it does not exist."

Do you apply the same assertion to Leprechauns, pink, feathered mushrooms, mermaids, unicorns, spherical cubes, core-boring giant gophers, zombies, metal-eating pencil erasers, invisible buildings and gremlins?

Do you assert that those things also exist but we simply haven't found the evidence for them yet?

I think when one chooses to apply intellectual honesty before emotionalism, the answer is clear. There is no evidence for any of these things and that is exactly what we expect to find when a proclaimed entity doesn't exist. Yet you divorce yourself from exactly the same logic when it comes to souls, simply because it serves your emotional desires to do so. The concept of souls cannot be shown to be in any way, excluded from this same logical premise, yet you discard the premise regarding souls, simply because you want to believe they exist.



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Oceanne
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09:54:10 Oct 09 2008
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AWESOME! Heated ? A little, but what else can one expect .However,I must say "Brava" to everyone.There have been some outstanding points made and now everyone can look at the different aspects and decide for themselves.Good going guys and thank you.
I guess as far as the question.Frankly,I dont know,so I wont pretend to.So either way? I dont feel it matters at all what happens to the body.
I wouldnt mind putting mine to good use though as a last act..creamated and tossed out into a garden somewhere.



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FoxxyCherryBlood
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11:06:55 Oct 09 2008
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I don't know personally. But I think that that since the soul doesn't need the body any more that it leaves once you die. The body is just a home for the soul until the body can't handle living any longer.



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La6Muerte66
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14:07:15 Oct 09 2008
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"In the case of M-theory; The evidence exists. We're searching for an explanation which fits the evidence. This is the mark of science.

In the case of souls; The explanation exists. The search for evidence to fit the explanation has continued to yield negative results. This is the mark of superstition."

The only evidence for M-theory, and String Theory for that matter, is mathematical plausibility, as I said in the other thread. There is absolutely no experimental evidence for the existence of superstrings, 1- or 2- dimensional. We as of yet cannot test anything smaller than the Planck length, and every theory involved with it is little more than convenient speculation. Similarly, the extra 7 dimensions are said to be curled up within the Planck length. It's an integral part of the theory.

Now, According to the theory itself, when something becomes smaller than the Planck length, mathematics based on its radius yield the same results as mathematics based on the inverse of its radius. If I understand it correctly, we are just as justified in saying that our dimension is tiny and curled up and any or all of those dimensions are huge. That being the case, what do you imagine inhabits those dimensions?

What I'm saying is there is still a LOT we have yet to discover. You can't so positively claim that souls do not exist simply because their existence cannot be proven. We lack the technology to measure things that are super-small, and similarly lack the technology to measure something that lies on another plane of existence.



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Anansi
Anansi
Great Sire (118)
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17:34:07 Oct 09 2008
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String theory at this point is simply that: a theory. For a basic overview, one can visit here

I'll simplify it to the core of the topic at hand:


There is no evidence that a soul exists.

There is no evidence that a soul does not exist.

I use the KISS rule (Keep It Simple, Supid :)



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xONYXCRUISERx
xONYXCRUISERx

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18:01:24 Oct 09 2008
Read 862 times

I should think the original question, the answer to which must surely be that it would have no bearing, in that each culture favors particular modes of burial, of course personal preference comes into play, and it is supposed that the human Soul actually fully departs the physical body on the 3rd day after death, but as to being 'punished' in some way for method of burial, if that is what was meant, I for One would think not, as it is all according to the Life one has lived, as to where a Soul may end up, on the 'other side'...;)

Ade


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Luvadeea
Luvadeea
Changeling (71)
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Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
22:05:18 Oct 09 2008
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I think it is personal belief.. As for me when I die, I will be burned and my ashes cast to a strong east wind. As for soul it will have already left my body. Our bodies are just a holding cell for our soul until we are reborn again, or death sets us free.



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lordxofxwar
lordxofxwar
Premiere Sire (123)
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23:00:14 Oct 09 2008
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I believe once the soul is done with the body it doesn't care what happens to the body.



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VR System
VR System

No Longer Registered
23:00:14 Oct 09 2008
Read 848 times

This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Oct 09 2008  •

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