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huntinginmoonlight
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17:07:37 Feb 05 2007
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have you noticed that today there are a lot of wanna be's in many religons.
i have met a lot of peple who claim to be wiccian but when they describe to me there befies that they have mentioned at least 3 other religons and are mixed up, and when they are told the true deffention of there religion they become angry and denfisve.

i undersatnd that feeling but i live in a area where there some posers to me that say they are into pagansim and for them that means to them they have to hate god, they have to follow a bunch of bazzr rules and its like ok.

but has anybody run into the same things i ahve seen with other people who jump religions and get them mixed and by doing that give others a bad name because they go to the extrem?




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DragonsEyes
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17:46:08 Feb 05 2007
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Yes...good statement/question. Although I am not from upstate New York, where I know quite a few individuals that do claim to be Wiccan, I can state that from what I have seen their way of life and living is quite in tune and in harmony with Nature and they work well with those individuals who are of religiuos faith other than theirs ie: Catholic, Protestant etc.
From what I see, their faith is derived from not just the energy of the earth and a belief that is transfixed on a "feminine" aspect of the earth, but that they as well believe in "God".
I think...and this might sound funny to some but watching them and speaking with some of the elder ones it started to rattle something in the back of my mind. In the 90's there was a made for TV movie titled "The Mists of Avalon" if anyone has seen it then maybe you can understand what I'm saying. From what I've seen of those who call themselvs Wiccan in Upstate NY they seem to very much fit into this type of way.
Very in tune with Nature, very strong in the belief that all things are one and one affects the other.



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hurtsoulless
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17:55:30 Feb 05 2007
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I think that some of the confusion isn't so much from the person you encounter as it is the person that teaches them. A lot, I mean too many, people get an idea for religion from someone that 'studied' it for a while. Then in turn begins to mentor someone into the religion without enough understanding of it. We need to be compassionate when dealing with these people, maybe even point them to a source you can site that they may be prepaired to deal with less understanding individuals.



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huntinginmoonlight
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18:03:41 Feb 05 2007
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i denfently like what you had to say , i try to do that as well but i admit i dont know everything and shot i as well have made miskates and thanks to others have helped me make corrections



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BillytheJust
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18:10:27 Feb 05 2007
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It's called "personalizing." And there is nothing wrong with that as long as the person realizes that their religion is not "The" religion.

These new-age and witches, healers, vamps and other funky (for lack of a better term) people wish to have a personal belief system that they are comfortable with. New ways or old ways now in the open, call for a new religion to them. Having "a way of life' is uncomfortable because they still associate with religion. So they make one. Then the mistake is to own it or associate themselves with it. You dis their religion, you dis them.



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placidchaos
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18:32:17 Feb 05 2007
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That could be Billy, but there are people who claim to be wiccan or pagan who have no idea what they are talking about, i.e. my father claims to be wiccan, but he follows none of the wiccan ways. He has talked about the wiccan path with me and it is clear to me that he knows almost nothing about it. I know a few others who are the same way. I also know some people like you described, they've taken parts from various religions but call themselves wiccan/pagan (I know one who says they're a druid). I have done the same thing with my beliefs but with one exception, I do not claim to be any particular religion, I tell people "I believe what I believe." I think that these people need educated a little more. I do tend to get a little annoyed with them because I have always believed that someone who will adhere to a belief without researching and understanding it (at least a little, I know that we can never fully understand everything) is a fool.



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karnstein
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18:38:41 Feb 05 2007
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well said. it's bad enough that Pagans are persecuted by fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims, without being further persecuted by fundamentalist Pagans. at least the former has a logic to it - fundamentalist Paganism is a contradiction of terms.

believe this - if you believe that there is but one path to enlightenment, and all other paths are wrong - you are definitely not on it.



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Behomoth
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18:40:38 Feb 05 2007
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Wicca is a new religion and saying New Age is just an umbrella term for MANY things in a revolution of enlightenment. Many things that a lot of people talk about in these forums come under that term...It was coined by the press. There is nothing bad about being called a New Ager cause Wicca does fall under that.

Here are some things about Gerald Gardner that started the Wiccan movement:

Through Gardner's involvement in a local Masonic group, the Fellowship of Crotona, he was introduced to a coven of hereditary witches who claimed to be practicing rites handed down from the Middle Ages. Gerald Gardner was initiated into the New Forest coven by Old Dorothy Clutterbuck, in 1939.

Witchcraft was still illegal in England, so Gardner was unable to write publicly about what he was learning. In 1949, he published another fictional novel called "High Magic's Aid", under the name Scire. Much of the material in the story was based on the rituals of his coven.

When England repealed its witchcraft laws in 1951, Gardner began his own coven. A few years later, Gardner initiated another well-known figure into that coven: Doreen Valiente. Gerald and Doreen worked together to refine Gardner's writings, and much of their work has been passed down to covens today that work in the Gardnerian tradition.

Their work began its way towards a more mainstream audience when Gardner wrote his first non-fiction book on witchcraft, "Witchcraft Today". He gained notoriety as Britain's "Chief Witch". Though he did not enjoy the spotlight, he published a second book on the subject, "The Meaning of Witchcraft".

I have a hardcover edition of this book. This is not exactly the same as original Witchcraft. Those do not follow the Rede and Three fold...this is something that was put in when these traditions started.
A lady wrote the Rede. Not all follow this and those following the old ways do not usually like to be identified with Wicca. There are so many types of this now. There isn't just one and some have things drawn in from other religious beliefs...just how it is.

The biggest Wiccan church in the World is the Correllian Nativist Tradition. It isn't exactly like Garnerian beliefs.

The Correllian Nativist Tradition is based upon the teachings of members of the High-Correll family. The High-Correll family were descended from a line of Cherokee Didanvwisgi who intermarried with a line of Scottish Traditional Witches, whose descendants were further influenced by Aradian Witchcraft and by the Spiritualist Church.

There are many traditions...don't think there is just one and they do have things that get mixed in if you want to think of it that way but what most think of as Wicca is Gardnerian and its his own sect with his own ideas based on one line of witches form England. There were various other types of practices in other countries with different names to them.



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Behomoth
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18:46:07 Feb 05 2007
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Now Druid...this is another thing. There are various types of modern Druidism. My organization sponsors a Druidic group but most modern day groups incorporate practices from Wicca. The only one I am sure that doesn't is the grove that is Irish Bhairdic. They do not and I know a lady who is ordained in that form. She has her own website and college. I am not going to promote for her. She was also involved in Irish Faery Wicca...a high priestess. I have met her so its not something I just know from online. Her name is Kisma Stepanich...you can look her up online.



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BillytheJust
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18:52:20 Feb 05 2007
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I remember when "the diary of a witch" came out, I have the book. Been watching these new ways before they hit the main stream. Many meanings to Wicca. Some say it is the same as being wiccan, some don't - go figure. Then there is this "neo-pagan" thing. It's the same as electricity, people don't know exactly what it is but they use it for their own purposes. Chances are we will see more of these mix-ups and more new ones pop-up. Sign of the times. Hell, we even have Buddhists that set themselves on fire now. I remember when buddhism was a way of life and not a religion. Everyone goes through cycles.



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hot4blood
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19:28:08 Feb 05 2007
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Unfortunately religion happens to always be a sensitive subject. I agree with some on this thread that there is a lot of people that are finding different ways of belief, spirituality, and faith. Personalizing it so to speak to what works for them. People need to remember what works for one, may mot work for others.



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meeper
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19:47:49 Feb 05 2007
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We all pick and chose to a degree what we believe in and I am sure some of us disagree with some of the teachings. As several on here have said, it is personalizing. We give ourselves the title of a specific religion or faith because it is the one that bests describes our belief system even if we are not the best at translating beliefs into action.



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karnstein
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19:47:59 Feb 05 2007
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all religions contain some elements from other religions. most religions evolve and change, taking on different aspects and borrowing from other faiths, or just inventing new ideas of their own. thats why all the main religions have so many different offshoots. some of the ideas are ancient, some are relatively new - but at one time, all the ideas were new. i foresee that it will not be long before we see religions forming around electronics and technology. - the Deus Ex Machina maybe?

Computer loves you
Computer is your friend
Trust computer.



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KCRC
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20:06:16 Feb 05 2007
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I think you see this phenomena in all religions. People pick and choose the tenants and belifs they are in touch with and basically ignore the rest, yet still maintain that they are "Insert Faith here".

I am an Elder in a main stream protastant denomination. I have had conversations with long time members of my congregation who reveal that they have no idea what the basic tenants are that seperate our denomination from others. I want to say to the "Why are you here?" you should be a "Insert other demonination", but that would just piss them off as they just don't get it.

Unless the folks in question are doing harm to the "true faith" I can't see getting that upset with it. Yet when some loser kills 20 people and then claims "I did it because I'm Wiccan and that's what we do." the some response is required from the Wiccan communtity saying "He wasn't one of us and here's why".



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FelixFelix
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20:32:34 Feb 05 2007
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Unless of course he was one of you but a homicidal maniac as well. Let's not forget that it's difficult if not impossible for any religion to weed out all the wackos. The best thing you can say is that "this person didn't understand or follow the tenets of the religion even though they may have been a member."

In some cases though, I place a certain share of blame directly at religious leaders who have found that they too have done some picking and choosing when it comes to which rules they want to follow. At best, organized religions will always have an amount of hypocrisy due to the fallible nature of power and leadership...and at best, 'disorganized' religions will have an amount of confusion about what defines their religion since there isn't one person in charge to speak to that question.

Best to simply believe what you believe and try not force it down someone else's throat.



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CuRsEdToDaRkNeSs
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20:35:19 Feb 05 2007
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It doesnt matter what faith you are, you will always find the ones that dont understand what is really happening. It is common that most believe that to be pagan you have to hate god. Although far from the truth, it is the norm to be believed.

I have known a few catholics that didnt know things about their own faith as well. It is just people and their way of thinking. I am an ecclectic pagan which means I follow no true path, but I am borderline agnostic. lol. I myself am still growing and learning and deciding what is right for me. :)

The best way to deal with those that dont understand their own faith is to let them not understand it. If they want to learn they will on thier own. :)



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meeper
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20:40:49 Feb 05 2007
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Lets not forget that many inherient there religion from their parents and sometime the transition into truly questioning and seeking out information that allows one to choose their religion for themselves does not occur.



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KCRC
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20:51:42 Feb 05 2007
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I agree with you 100% Meeper.

I was raised in the Denomination I now belong to. But is was not a continual process. I was not confirmend when I was a youth as my parents had some issues with the church we belonged to. (It's really a sad story. My older sisters were in the youth group and my parents had a hissy fit when they were going to do an outreach mission project in the "Black" section of town. Us kids could not believe that our parents had taught us "all races are equals" yet when it came down to it they really were raceists.) Anyway. I did not attend church for about 15 years. It wasn't until I got married and we went "church shopping" that I sought to understand my beliefs and where I fit.

Many folks just do what there parents did rather than cause a stir. Our 21 year old daughter currently believes as we do, but we encourage her to think for herself. Our 20 year old daughter doesn't know what she believes and is just sort of drifting. My wife is currently exploring Wicca.

I think we would all be much better off if we spent some time thinking about what we believe and why. I can't comprehend why someone would profess to the world believfe in a given faith, and have no clue what it means to belong to that group.



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XnewdeathsensationX
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20:58:48 Feb 05 2007
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I have seen this more than once I just let them belive what they want after all is that not the way we learn what works and what don't?



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SacredKnowledge
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21:31:43 Feb 05 2007
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I feel that many religions tend to influence each other if not get totally mixed up. For example, the Roman pantheon has found its way into the Roman Catholic church (I have photographic proof) under different names. Many have a hard time discerning the foreign junk from the true faith and has affected them negatively.



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secretnightsilence
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21:43:00 Feb 05 2007
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I met a girl once, who insisted that pagans worshiped the devil and ate babies and all the other odd things that it entails.

Disgusting. It hurts when people parade as something, and end up sending messages to people that those religieons are horrible.

This is quite possibly the worst thing a person could do. In my personal opinion.

So; Everybody out there who is thinking of maybe switching religions around, PLEASE look into it before assuming you know it.



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Silentfury
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21:53:50 Feb 05 2007
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I for one have never understood the labels that people put on religion. I have formend my current beliefs through my own personal studies instead of what others wanted me to believe. And I have found that I believe things from all sorts of different religions. This could be due to the fact that my paternal family is Catholic, my maternal family is penticostal, my father was a minister in my mothers faith, I was sent to a Baptist school, dated a level 3 Satanist for awhile, an currently attend a protistant ladies meeting. I have many Jewish friends and love the study of the Torah.

So I do not feel the need to call myself a certain religion and tend not to judge people if they do.



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Xauthic
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22:00:02 Feb 05 2007
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The biggest reason I am so against christians is because I was forced to read the bible at a young age, but still became an odinist by around 9 from the eddas and sagas, and I just laugh at all the christians that don't truly understiand thier own religion they just clam to be because they know the part of ask forgiveness and get to heaven so it gives em an excuse to be assholes the rest of the time



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FelixFelix
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22:24:47 Feb 05 2007
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SacredKnowledge - in many instances, survival dictated the inclusion of pagan or polytheistic gods and deities into christian religion as saints or devils. In England for example, there was a clear intent by Christianity to wipe druids off the map. Psuedo-converted druids created monasteries directly at the places of druid centers of learning (like Oxford). A great many of the druidic deities were renamed and given 'sainthood' so that traditional worship could be continued under the cover of a Christian guise.



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illuminata
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00:13:43 Feb 06 2007
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WELL, IF YOU WOULD TAKE SOME TIME READING HISTORY BOOKS ON RELIGION, YOU WOULD NOTICE THAT CENTURIES BEFORE, ALL RELIGION' CAME FROM ONLY A 'SINGLE RELIGION'. I FORGOT THE NAME BUT THEIR WORSHIP NATURE...

AS TIME PASSED, THE BELIEF OF PEOPLE CHANGED AND SO THE RELIGION BRANCHED OUT.

CHRISTIANITY WAS DERIVED FROM PAGANISM DURING CONSTANTINES TIME. HE WANTED TO UNITE HIS PEOPLE WHO WERE DIVIDED BY RELIGION WHICH WAS PAGANISM AND THE NEW RELIGION OF CHRIST - CHRISTIANITY...

THAT'S WHY OUR SAINTS HAVE HALOS, AND HALOS ARE SHAPED LIKE DISCS AND ARE SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT THE LIGHT. ORIGINALLY, HALOS REPRESENTS THE SUN GOD APOLLO... AND WHY DO STATUES OF CHRIST, MARY AND GOD LOOK WESTERNERS DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE FROM THE EAST? ITS BECAUSE THE RELIGION HAS BEEN COMBINED WITH PAGANISM..

ACTUALLY ALL RELIGIONS HAVE DIFFERENT NAMES FOR THEIR GODS, DIFFERENT BELIEFS AND DIFFERENT RULES. BUT IN THE END, IT ALL COMES DOWN TO A SINGLE GOD-- A SUPREME ENTITY WHO RESIDES IN PARADISE (IF PARADISE FOR THEM IS HEAVEN OR HELL)



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AshiburzSangueDeVie
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01:41:00 Feb 06 2007
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I've seen alot of this, and in past years, have been part of the problem, myself, admittedly. But now I don't practice religion at all, it's what I ended up finding out works best for me. I do, however also know some people who are actually knowlegeable in their religion and are not poseuers. For example, both the drummer and vocalsit in my band, Death Toll are pagan. I myslef am anihilist, and I'm not sure of the beleifs of the other guitarist. We used to have a Leveyan Satanist, but he quit for personal reasons before I joined.



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placidchaos
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01:44:16 Feb 06 2007
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There's something that I have to point out on this thread, for all the people talking about the origins of paganism. Pagan was originally a general term applied to any religion that existed during the early days of christianity that didn't believe in the christan/jewish god. I agree with illuminata that constantine combined the pagan beliefs of his people with christian beliefs in hopes of ending a very long and often times deadly conflict between his subjects, one example is the cross. In the times of Jesus they did not hang people on a cross, they used a tall wooden stake with a plaque at the very top stating their name and crime.

Most modern religions are bits and pieces of other religions put together because it was easier for someone to accept. I still think that EVERYONE should research a religion before they claim to be it. Otherwise they are a fraud!



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NCBandit
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02:56:32 Feb 06 2007
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I believe everyone has encountered this phenomenon at some point. I love to get into religious debates with individuals because I can always discover how little these individuals actually know about the religion they claim to follow. Many individuals pick and choose the portions of the religions they have studied and create/develop their own beliefs from there.



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Kglitterous
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04:52:03 Feb 06 2007
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I encountered a curious event in India with my religeon... often in the villages, when we went to teach how to read and write Hindi (I learned how to read and write it but my vocabulary and grammar stinks...LOL) we often encountered people who would add the founder of my religeon to their list of Gods...

Quite comical actually since my religeon is monodeistic.



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Vashti
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04:53:18 Feb 06 2007
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I have had a lot of problems with people being religious 'posers', calling themselves something but having no idea what's really involved. The worse thing is when it is perpetuated by people pretending to be knowledgeable, but spewing ignorant garbage and uninformed opinion as though it were fact. People think that they are getting real help from an elder in the faith, and are led astray.

I see this especially in the Christian faith, because recently everyone seems to believe that everything they've ever seen in a movie, on some TV special, or out of a book by some two-bit hack must be the absolute truth. Even a few of the posts on this thread aren't exactly the most well researched. Just be glad pagans don't have televangelists. If anything can give a religion a bad name . . .



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BusterBlade
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14:41:08 Feb 06 2007
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i can admit that i'd probably fall into the category of "poser" if it weren't for the fact that i always explained that i disagreed on enough lvls that the religion is merely a sub-base for what i believe and that i've merely built on the foundation what i believe.
i call myself christian in some ways, but believe in reincarnation, and also walk a different pathway. i'm more of a John Constantine than a Pope. i study other religions to understand them and sometimes find something i feel to be truth, verify that it'd work within my beliefs still... then either accept it or disregard it.
if people ask my religion i'll say christian... but really it's not what i am, it's just a name that i can associate closest with my beliefs.



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LazurusAQ
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14:51:12 Feb 06 2007
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No, I've not witnessed this.

There are no "posers" in religion. People often usurp certain practices and doctrines from other religions and add them to their own.

Religion is a system of beliefs. Beliefs are never set in stone, and are ever present to be modified and twisted.


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BusterBlade
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15:09:23 Feb 06 2007
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i want to actually disagree with that statement.
religions are set in stone to a degree... it's like a book that has just enough room at the bottom of the pages to write your own little notes. but there are some religions that when you add another belief to it it becomes another religion... for example, a pagan viewpoint mixed with christianity becomes christeo-paganism, something many don't view as very logical. Buddhist practice is actual fairly set in stone as well.
religion is a system of belief... but it's a unified belief held together by multiple people with at least some form of rules that are unwavering for anyone in that religion... or unfortunately something that is taken to everyone that they see on the streets. if someone wants to mix and match religions and construct their own beliefs you can't really call it a religion unless they start having a following.
i follow some christian guidelines, but not practices. but without the christian religion my views would fall to pieces. that's the only reason i can say i'm christian really, unless i wanted to say i was agnostic but believed certain pieces of many religions. i'm not a real "christian", but i say i am... so technically i AM a poser, because in church i just go through the motions.

some people also just say they are doing something just so they have attention. i've exiled myself from a "wiccan" because i've got a fuller understanding study of wicca and she's "studied" 8 times longer than i have... and i've been studying it a year. so in that regard... i'd say that there are many "posers" out there. when anything becomes something, posers will always be there. that's my belief.



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amalthearose
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16:25:12 Feb 06 2007
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ok great topic this is. ok with me i don't really follow any religion, yes i practice witchcraft solitary and on my own, i try to be in tune with Nature, very strong in the belief that all things are one and one affects the other etc, i don't label myself as a witch, i also find it hard to explain things, no matter how well i know it,



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xxFallenLupaxx
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17:50:09 Feb 06 2007
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I hear this everytime I walk into school. People assume those who dress in all black are automatically Witches. Those sterotypes don't help- you mix it with- well- posergoths who don't know the meaning of Wicca and there you go- you've got a religion mix up.
Although I'm a firm believer of seperation of Church and State- we should have a course offered to draw the lines of all the religions, tell what they're really about and how they originated



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karnstein
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20:20:36 Feb 06 2007
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true Christianity and Paganism are not incompatible - Christianity was Pagan before the Romans hijacked it for their own political ends. When i was young, we had a vicar who put great emphasis on nature and fertility - he was practically Pagan in his beliefs and way of life. i still respect him.



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Kglitterous
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01:42:19 Feb 07 2007
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Pagan, by definition is almost always polytheistic... and by definition puts another God before the Judeo-Christian God; and thusly is incompatable with the 10 commandments, which are pretty much adhered to by Christians, Jews, Moslems, and their offshoots.



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SinginGhost88
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06:13:37 Feb 07 2007
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religions ot me seem all the same. Just small, minor differences. I wouldnt necassarily call ppl wanna bes in their religion, maybe they're just trying to find what they beleive and who they are.
As they grow spiritually and mentally, they'll either grow out of that beleif sytem, or if they truly beleive it, they will stick with it.



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Vampirologist
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10:43:04 Feb 07 2007
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"true Christianity and Paganism are not incompatible - Christianity was Pagan before the Romans hijacked it for their own political ends." (karnstein)

I think you will find it was Rome who "paganised" Christianity from the fourth century onward instead of pagan Rome becoming "Christianised" under Constantine.

The Roman Catholic Church derived its secular power from Contantine who was hailed as the first Christian Emperor. His adoption of Christianity did not prevent his own deification after death, nor the murder of his son and second wife. There were many others who Constantine murdered, or executed, including his rival, Licinius.

None of these deaths, at any time in any society, can be excused. He clearly had no comprehension of the teachings of Jesus Christ and even the Roman Church became uncomfortable about Constantine's death-bed baptism at the hands of the Arian heretic Eusebius of Nicomedia, and invented a story that he was baptised by Silvester I of Rome. However, Nicomedia was not in Silvester's diocese and at the time of the emperor's baptism Silvester had been dead for two years.

The Romans making Christianity a state religion witnessed ambitious churchmen clambering upon each other in an endeavour to gain power. They became paganised in the wake of Constantine and persecuted gentler Christians discovered when Rome turned its gaze toward British shores in 597.

The "rotteness" of the Roman Catholic Church was at the heart of Martin Luther's attack on it in 1517 when he wrote the "95 Theses" thus sparking off the German Reformation. At the start of the sixteenth century, the Roman Catholic Church was all powerful in western Europe. There was no legal alternative. The Church of Rome jealously guarded its position and anybody who was deemed to have gone against it was dealt with harshly, frequently resulting in their death. The Roman Church did not tolerate any deviance from its dogma and teachings. But were these teachings Christian?

A Christian cannot be certified as such unless what they believe derives from Christ. For example, Our Lord did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and in Luke 22: 24-26 expressly prohibits ideas of this kind. The Roman Church of recent centuries nevertheless made Peter "prince" of the apostles due to her alteration to the original meaning of the words: "Though art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church."

None of the Church Fathers made the connection between Peter and the Bishop of Rome, as does the Roman Catholic Church, and for them it was Peter's Faith - or Christ in whom Peter has Faith - which is called the rock, not Peter.

All the Church Councils in the first fifteen centuries agree that Jesus Christ is the only foundation or rock on which the Church rests.

What we witness in modern churchianity with its subscription to the pagan concept of a "just war" is about as far removed from the teachings of Christ as you can get, which might explain why many of these churches have introduced "multi-faithism" and include Freemasons among their clergy. To rediscover pure Christianity you would need to go back to the apostolic church prior to Rome's hijacking of the faith when the Emperor Constantine adopted "Christianity" which resulted in his title "Pontifex Maximus" being assumed by every pope. Previously Christians would neither be allowed, nor want to be, in the army. In 416, however, by an edict of Theodosius, only "Christians" were allowed to enlist.

The early Church in the Apostolic Age had a profound sense of the sanctity of human life. Shedding blood was a grievous sin. After Constantine defeated Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge in 312, so-called "Christians" ceased to be pacifists and beat their ploughshares into swords.



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DeathDruid
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13:04:58 Feb 07 2007
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On the subject of "posers" of Wiccan -or- any left hand path so to say; Instead of positioning yourself in an adversarial mannor in which they must defend themselves of their beliefs ect. such as saying: What you "FAIL" to realize... it is far better to take the stance of "what I would like for you to realize is...." When those of us who know what the correct answers are; it is our duties to the continuation and spread of our beliefs to take the stance as teacher instead of treating them as outsiders. Educate, Educate, Educate. At one time we were persecuted for our beliefs. Being the majority of society will secure that the Inquisition will never happen again.



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karnstein
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20:12:13 Feb 07 2007
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though many Pagans are polytheistic, this is not what the word means. most horses have four legs, but that does not mean that the word horse means any four legged animal. Pagan originally meant rural religion - which referred to any religion that was not secular or ruled over by the state.



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Chippy
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07:05:28 Feb 08 2007
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The main reason people get their religions mixed up is because they don't understand or really even care what they say they are. They say that they are some type of a religion because of a friend telling them that they are now part of it or they go through some type of initiation that has nothing to do with the religion itself. People are just wanting to be a part of a grou whether it means believeing in something falsely or pretending that you know what's going on.



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sabre
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09:47:43 Feb 08 2007
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'Mixed-up baby' now wants to change religion
Tuesday, February 6, 2007 ( METRO , LONDON )

A Chinese man faces prison for renouncing Islam after finding out he was brought up by the wrong family.

Chinese Malaysian Zulhaidi Omar was given to a Malay Muslim family at birth in a hospital mix-up.

Twenty-one-years after the mix up his biological parents found him working in a supermarket a couple of miles from their home.

Now he wants to convert to Buddhism, the religion of his biological parents, but he faces prison as it is illegal in Malaysia to renounce Islam.

His parents say they never believed the child they were given from the hospital was theirs.

Father Teo Ma Long said: 'We sensed that something was amiss because the baby was darker and did not look like any of us.

'We went back to the hospital to check if there had been a mistake. But they insisted that he was our child.

'So we brought him up as one of our own, although we knew our actual son was out there somewhere.'

The Malay child was named Tian Fe and grew up to marry a Chinese woman and inherit the family business.

For Omar, however, life was not so good. Throughout his childhood he was teased for his pale skin and Chinese eyes.

His father left his mother when he was three and he never got on with his step father.

He left home young and worked in odd jobs to support himself through secondary school.

It was in one of these jobs that his biological sister found him.

He said: 'She suspected that I was her brother because of my striking resemblance to our father.'

His sister brought her parents to look at him and they convinced him to take a DNA test.

'The results confirmed they were indeed my biological parents,' he said.

Omar hopes authorities, who have not allowed a single Muslim to renounce their religion in recent years, will make an allowance in his case.

Mr Teo and his wife Lim Sik Hai are considering whether to sue the Batu Pahat hospital which caused the mix-up.



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karnstein
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19:21:10 Feb 08 2007
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even if one is on the path for the wrong reason, or does not know what path they are on, there is still the possibility of enlightenment - be it a goal, or an occupational hazard.



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BathoryBabe
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21:05:29 Feb 08 2007
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what some people believe in or not is there own opinon and thinking some people, tend to make mistakes my god i have and i am not a perfect satanists but i am still learning there is more options then people just trying to, be wana' bes maybe they dont know how to put it in words..
Some people have that disorder, and for people to talk about there spells, none should be out spoken to what u have done or three times fold comes back at you, karma isnt something to play with..
Maybe try recognizing the religion and putting them together, maybe you will come up with a better response.



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Cinnamon
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23:43:23 Feb 08 2007
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Religion is a personal thing. There's nothing wrong with taking a basic religion and making it something you're comfortable with--as long as you don't insist that IT is the religion and anyone that disagrees is wrong. I think that religious spats are such silly things. No one is right and no one is wrong. Believe what you want to believe--even if it's nothing. I generally say that I'm Pagan with Wiccan tendencies. lol I don't fit perfectly into any category and I'm fine with that. I'm me. That's all I can be.


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Tzaddi
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23:56:36 Feb 08 2007
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Religion is a variety of beliefs. I think it is possible to have "mix ups" and still have a feasible belief system. I believe religion is a choice, and can be fit to ones own interests.



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Kglitterous
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00:00:29 Feb 09 2007
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I see the point you are making Karstein, the word pagan is truely too ambiguous to be used without common context. Paganus, meaning villager (the root of Pagan apparently) was where the last hold outs of polytheism remained in Rome... hense the tendancy to conject that pagans are all polytheists. It can also be said that rurals are more peaceloving and atuned to their surroundings than urbans and thus that being pagan is more like the early Christians. If we use the word pagan, we can all be right at the same time... LOL.



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Ginevvra
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00:49:14 Feb 09 2007
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I agree with Tzaddi (sorry if i misspelled). I believe religion is a very personal choice. Everyone has the right to believe in what they please. So what if they say they are jewish but still believe in jesus? It is not our job to dictate weather the beliefs of someone are right or wrong. If they say they are wiccan, and dont know anything about it it is not in our place to judge. If they are "posers" they are betraying themselves and their God, which is their and only their business.
Anyway my point is that religion is a personal choice which should not be dictated by anyone, not by the church, not by anyone.



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atyourwindow
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06:11:07 Feb 09 2007
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i think religion is a personal choice....and i am not sure if you can call some one a poser if they believe in a few diff religions....

some have been brought a certain way and believe in some of those values but have learned a diff religion on the way and combine the 2...

just b/c you do not know all things about your religion means you are a poser...i think there is always something new to learn in any relgion....



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Vampirologist
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09:40:58 Feb 09 2007
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The word "religion" simply means a particular system of faith and worship.

The word "pagan" today means heathen, unenlightened or irreligious.

The above definitions are the given meanings of these words according to The Concise Oxford Dictionary.



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Emaeralds
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22:18:42 Mar 11 2007
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i see so many posers/people that just have no clue what they believe in or whatever you would like to call them that like to shove their beliefs down peoples throats and when it comes down to it they have no idea what they even think much less what they want us to think and it irritates me to no end seriously



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BathoryBabe
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00:53:29 Mar 12 2007
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Personally I think everyone should be allowed their own belief system. I try do to what I know is right for the most part because I don't believe that there is one true religion but that at some point in time they were all split and that every religions has some basis in truth so rather then follow any one of them I study as many of them as I can and have found more similarities between them then most people would like to admit. Even in the clay pottery of the native people there has been found what are called flood bowls that depict a boat full of all different animals of the earth. So who is to say what is right or wrong. Only the individual can decide what is right for themselves.



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xRoguex
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01:57:15 Mar 12 2007
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Good subject....

I am one of these mixed up people lol... however I don't claim to follow any one religion. I prefer if I have to label myself as a solitary or just pagan. My beliefs are mixed with Egyptian, wiccan, buddism, and a few others. It is more that I find these religions to be interesting and follow with how 'I' see things and life... however I can't follow a strict format or feel closed in by rules and how things are suppose to be done... So I prefer freedom. Maybe thats why there are many religions blending and mixing.



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Schadenfreude
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02:42:37 Mar 12 2007
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Although I currently don't place myself under any religious system, nor atheism, I was raised Roman Catholic and have always pondered why some people seem to believe that Catholicism and Christianity are seperate; am I wrong in this, or is Catholicism merely a branch of Christianity as I have always believed?

In an attempt to answer my own question, I'm just going to assume that it's due to ignorance, wether intentional or not. I don't remember much of the religion I grew up in nor do I care to know (a little research on my part probably would answer a lot of questions!). Although I can accept any and all differences between Paganism, Wiccan, Witch-craft, and the like, I really know little or nothing about them and if were to be asked about them would probably give you a blank face.

I find myself loath to accept those who confused the previously mentioned religions with Satanism, but even then uninteniontal ignorance must play a part in that (as well as fear of Satan and anything that appears remotely simliar to it). I'd like to get angry, but is it really their fault to make such honest mistakes?



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02:49:34 Mar 12 2007
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I have to agree somewhat with Sacred...religions over time have come together and drifted apart and shared pieces of themselves with other religions....some branches have allen away, while others have blended...such is the way of life...



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rayvenzLust
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05:18:52 Mar 12 2007
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I understand this, in my town your either LDS or not. mostly LDS and I know alot of the kids here hate it you go to school graduate and get married thats it. my friend is Satanic so they were like cool lets be friends with him, he moved here. and they didnt understand it. I'm nothing I support my heritage which is Jewish and catholic but I find holes in thier believes and I like the wiccan religion from what I understand of it. but people want to reble either aginst their parents or the town so they get mixed up in things they dont understand.



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jimtheaxe
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10:24:13 Mar 12 2007
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I agree with one of th above statements in that a faith or religion can be personalized. I think it can reflect ones own point of views asw long as you make it known that it is only their belief and not of the group. That is why there are so many relgions. Even each denomination has different branchs. Like Babtist. They have several different types of Babptist churches ( Missionary, Freewill, Fundimental....). Maybe the person you spoke to was a Freewill Wiccan.



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Silverbow
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12:53:17 Mar 12 2007
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I have to agree fully with hurtsoulless.. Often times I find that the confusion is due to a lack of understanding and good source information..

I had a woman approach my daughter, son and I in a park where I worked. I was giving the children a lesson in meditation and nature.. The woman started to swear and rant and rave about the devil and all kinds of things and we listened.. Then another woman tried to "come to our defence" and calm the first woman down.. It was not pretty because it became very clear that both woman didnt know anything about what they where talking about.


I have had a co worker, who at the time I didnt know practiced anything, ask me some questions. She belonged to an online group that met offline every month for classes. They offered several classes at different times a month and part of the requirement for the group was that you had to take at least one class a month.... AND pay for it.
I told her I would check it out.. I never made it past the online section of the group.. I let the Moderator know that I was leaving the group and my reasons why. My friend, the co worker, asked me why I left and I told her as well. I gave her some good source information, what I would consider good anyway, and encouraged her to do research on her own and not belive just anything the group was handing out.

She has since left the group and is studying on her own. She asks me for help from time to time and we do things together with our two families. But the information she had been getting would make you stop and think.. are these people seriously sane?

She is on a great path now and searching for a teacher and I support her in that.. I support everyone in their search..

Most times things have to be taken with a grain of salt... and dont get me started on religions and holidays.. I would be here all day... The cross overs are enough to give you a headache..

Most intelligent people would do the research or find other sources for information.. not simply follow what one person says.. then again.. meh.. who knows.

For as along as there is organized religion there has been confusion.. People will have their opinions and right or wrong, they are welcome to them.

Oh.. failed to mention.. the second woman in the first part of my little note here.. is part of the local "circle"... sometimes you just have to laugh and say thanks and move on without another word..



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lusciousbbygrl34
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15:13:23 Mar 12 2007
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completely understand your meaning. were i live ppl like to be what they call well rounded and then cant keep them straight. i say pic a religion and stick with that one and do all the research and live by it.



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Spettro
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15:20:53 Mar 12 2007
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There are so many different religions out there and I have so many different things that I hold true. It is difficult to define myself as one specific religion. I use the word tendencies alot. Right now my faith has gone through an upheaval and I'm looking for a religion that is a better fit. Some people may not be posers but seekers trying to find a religion that they can embrace as well as be embraced by.



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LunaDeath
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15:33:44 Mar 12 2007
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yeah, this kind of stuff happens often, sadly. Good forum Discussion. I have myself been 'victim' to this kind of confusion but never have I closed my mind to correction if I am wrong. That's a big problem with most people is that they close themselves off to correction or help and in this they are defensive and soemtimes rude. Why wouldn't they want to improve? Don't we all want to improve ourselves in some way?



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Cerberos69
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15:53:35 Mar 12 2007
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i believe and this is just my opinion that it starts to get mixed up when one starts to change religion to fit you instead of changing yourself to fit the religion. that is why there is so many churches that share some what the same name yet thier doctorine varies slightly. through out the years if some one disagreed they just ran off and made thier own branch that reflects thier views, gathering like minded poeple with them. i myself was a victem of that at one time. even the sane religion will very from place to place, in earlier post it was mentioned up state NY yet in the south it is different atleast with the younger generation that i see. they use wiccan as a reason to loose themselfs in the darker aspects of life. thinking it ok if they claim it is thier religion. i'm probaly not making much sence here. but there will always be a blending as long as people disagree.



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TuAmor
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05:28:25 Mar 13 2007
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ok well I'm not sure this may fall more into the line of hypocrasy but my family says they are 'christian' yet alot of what they do is no where near Christianity. My family judges me for living out of wedlock with my fiance but my dad and mother are divorced he cheated on my mom and was not married to my step-mother until there last child was born. but yes alot of people want to say that they are a certain religion maybe to fit in? Or be apart of an organization? I say to each there own but do your research. Don't be a fake and if you do get put in your place don't get mad it's your fault.



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skully418
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16:03:51 Mar 13 2007
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I've seen it a billion times too. "I'm a wiccan christian!" uhh.....

I agree that its not a big deal to have various beliefs, but to try to 'multiclass' (yay for gaming terms) your religions is pretty ridiculous.

I think the point of following one path is to narrow the focus a bit. None of us can do it all!



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DarkAngelDevina
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16:31:28 Mar 13 2007
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I feel that all religions and journeys of discovery are related in some form or another..We can't truly say who's right and wrong for their beliefs at all...zThere are so many that one might pull from each a lil something to help them grow into their own faith and way of life....



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Temptress666x
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23:00:40 Mar 13 2007
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I have never personally known any other types of religon, other then, your typical Luthern or Catholic. I am not baptized, so I am not a religon, myself. Where I come from and live, there are never any different types of religons around. Everyone is all the same between the two common religons that I listed above. I have never studied the dark arts or witchcraft. But, I am going to start, someday. I am really interested in the ways that this magic can work. I have never seen or known anyone with religon mixups.:/ It has always been the same for me, ever since I was born. *shrugs shoulders*



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meeper
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23:55:14 Mar 13 2007
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A misunderstanding of religion does not necessarily equate to a flawed morality structure. Religion is often used a crutch for outlying basic codes of acceptable behavior. Just because someone does not grasp all of the dogma and laws behind a complex religion does not always equate to having a moral and ethical code befitting their faith.



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Juni
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02:03:37 Mar 14 2007
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There do seem to be a lot of people who tend to mix up religions. I think this is because of a want to belive in something, and perhaps a general preference to different religions. This could probably be easily solved if people would stop trying to classify themselves and each other, and let there be more personal faiths and spiritual preferences. What works for me doesn't always work for everyone else.
*Good point Meeper, I like your style mate*



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redzombie000
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04:00:50 Mar 14 2007
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you should change the religion to suit you not you to suit the religion that is what i preach myself



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FangMeBaby
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07:24:32 Mar 14 2007
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I called myself pagan but I know that i'm not completely true to it yet, I'm still learning and I'm doing it on my own.

The problem with religion (not faith) but religion is that its all strands from the same source. My mum calls herself Muslim but does none of things she should do.



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LordVerbal
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15:27:59 Mar 19 2007
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There everywhere, people don't know what they want, they jump into things without doing there research first, everybody is looking for something that they'll never find and it kills them so they look for it everywhere they possibly can, usually they fall into what I like to call "the cool trap" The only reason they do half the crap they do is to try and be cool for there friends and more than likely when you run into someone like you've explained this is the reason they're the way they are.



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LordFangor
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18:37:27 Mar 19 2007
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Perhaps people would be far better off choosing the best aspects of several religions rather than embracing wholeheartedly any one religion



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meeper
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18:53:28 Mar 19 2007
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Humans seem to have a need of acceptance and a need for social involvement. No wonder we have people who join religions who do not necessarily believe in all its tenants. I highly doubt that everyone in any organization adheres to every aspect. Plenty of people who belong to the NRA don't believe that everyone is entitled to carry AK47... I people who consider themselves to be animal rights activist and yet they eat meat which most animal rights groups are against.

It goes back to what I was saying earlier, people need interaction with others and a sense of belonging- both of which are provided in a variety of organizations including religious communities.



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thesnarkhunter
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20:32:09 Mar 20 2007
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That is due to a general lack of knowledge and intelligent thought. I don't claim any religion as my own because I don't know enough about any one religion to say that I completely agree with it.



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scorpnoire
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23:14:04 Mar 20 2007
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You know, reading all this brings up a book we read at school back in those days, wich really impressed me and changed my view on religions.
It is from the famous Gotthold Ephraim Lessing (18th century German author) and originally called 'Nathan der Weise' (don't ask me what the english translation may be).

A very important part of the book it the so called "Ringparabel", I'll try to repeat in shot words.

An old man has a very precious ring wich also signs the heir of the house. He but has three sons and loves them all three equally.
He just don't want to upset just one of them by choosing one son above the others on his Sterbebett.
So decides to copy the ring so perfectly, no one ever will be able to tell the copies from the original.
As his time comes he calls in each son alone and gifts one of the rings to each of them, then dies peacefully with the believe, they will equally share his gift.

They but don't, get in an argument and later fight about wich ring is the true one and wich ring is just a fake.
Lessing, knowing of the religions of Judaism, Christianism and Islam used this story as a parable to express his view on the Crusades and Holy wars, similar to the ones we face today, more than 200 years ago!

I strongly belive, as long as you have faith and feel comfortably with it, there is no wrong nor right. But as soon as you instrumentalize a believe or religion as it already had been done in the antics and Middle Ages, you just forget about the most important fact with should be the heart of each religion and/or Believe:
Tolerance.

Reflect what you read and hear and then decide, wether you let it impress you or not. Keep an eye on the overall picture and by all means necessary:
feel free not to agree with me.
This is just my point of view.

Gruß



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lavisbre
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23:45:11 Mar 20 2007
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Wise words from all
I think what one can make out of this is there is a huge desire a human disposition to want a spiritual path.
With the market flooded there are many religions beliefs and fractions in each out there and no one knows the truth…….. that is why it’s still diluting and mutating searching outward for an answer.
I believe the answer is inward, we are the spiritual being we seek we just don’t know ourselves when we experience this fragile consciousness called human being.



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vampironegro
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01:22:21 Mar 21 2007
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religon is something to help u find a path and some just arent to sure what they want so they mix everything up



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Cartomancer
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01:45:07 Mar 21 2007
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I understand personalizing- but I have to say... there are a LOT of people on this site alone who say they are a 'religion' that they don't even know 2% about. People use a label to sound 'cool'. It's true, it's sad, and it makes me cringe.

I have actually been many different religions. Each time I dove into the books and could speak at length about it's history and what I believed. I am not perfect or a better person... but I don't understand people who will publically claim something they can be punked on.



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huntinginmoonlight
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01:46:47 Mar 21 2007
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i would like to clear something up i hope i did not offened when i said poser what i meant by poser is that

some one who claims somthing for the shock value to get a reaction by bsaying diffent things to confsue and start problems

sorr if i offended



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oxidisingangel
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03:57:40 Mar 21 2007
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Religion is ones personal beliefs. Everyone has got their own, It's not up to me to agree or disagree with anyones beleifs.



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BeautifullyDisturbed
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04:28:17 Mar 21 2007
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true and I understand what you are saying but there are some people who join a religion to be cool and fit in... there are so many in my town.... "yes I am a wiccan" and when you ask them what a wiccan actually is.... confusion is brought apon them ha ha.... it annoys me... but then again we even have christian posers who go to church to pick up the virgins... lol ahhhh these Aussie boys



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idbeholda
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04:41:47 Mar 21 2007
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I think a quote from the movie "Dogma" is in order.

Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.

Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?

Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.



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Kimberley
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07:37:59 Mar 21 2007
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first i dont care what anybody says many religions are alike. maul this over in your mind how the hell do 100 plus religons sprout form one book. i believe taht books like the bible are meant for you to get out of them what you need. i really could have wriitne that last sentence in an easier fassion hehe. many religions even though they have several differences are called christians. but not just that religion, many witches believe in the five powers, also catholics have 3 versions which branch off into many things such as luthernism and so on. in this sence you cant say that anyones religion crosses or is in fact wrong.in short every person has his/her own religion, even people in the same church dont believe in the same things.



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HauntingThoughts
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08:11:19 Apr 03 2007
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I think that there is always that kind of thing that happens .For instant a new girl came to my highschool when I was still in school a couple beople found out she practiced some sort of magic and all of a sudden half of the school were witches and they all had the same thing it is like they were looking some info up for a school paper and got all the info confused with everything else



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lolitamarie
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01:08:46 Apr 06 2007
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I find religion to be a very personal thing and think that each person sees things in the own way. I have no problem with someone personalizing a religion as long as they realize that what they believe may not be what the majority of the adherents to a particular faith believe.

In every religion, there are different branches. There is not one Baptist church. You have Southern Baptists, Missionary Baptist and one small branch called Primitive Baptists. The Jewish faith is diviided into many different sects. I am sure the same thing is happening with Wiccan.



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neonate
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01:39:06 Apr 06 2007
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I think the social aspect has a lot to do with it. There is a desire to get out of the house and see other people. Having a religion is a cost-effective way to do this that you can take the whole family with you.

Not everyone can afford to have a "night on the town" every week.

I call myself "agnostic" when anyone asks, or I'll say "yes, I know Jesus loves me", and try to end conversations like that then and there.



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meeper
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01:41:23 Apr 06 2007
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This might stray a little from deep discussion... but as far as mixups, how about everyone who celebrates Easter/Christmas and are not Christians?



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neonate
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01:44:58 Apr 06 2007
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I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the American commerilization of those holidays.

I am not Christian.. that doesn't mean I don't like getting presents for all my friends and giving it to them.

Part of this may also have to do with dealing with families. These holidays are also a good reason for people to take a few days off and get together back with their families and have a good couple of days together. Their love for their deity isn't so much the reasoning behind doing this, merely their love for their family.



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vampironegro
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01:45:27 Apr 06 2007
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the whole mix up is because people want something to believe in



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Kornwolf
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02:08:22 Apr 06 2007
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I haven't looked into paganism that much at all and there are like no pagans in my vicinity, so I don't know how they believe their religion works...I have, however, noticed it in the Christian religion...Most Christians I've met drink, smoke, cuss, and a whole bunch of other stuff that (I don't think..) they shouldn't be doing...I don't know, seeing as how I never really understood any religion....



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RavenEyes
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02:38:50 Apr 06 2007
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Yes, I've seen that quite often actually. I think it happens because so many religions are really just the same thing, only tweaked a little.



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hot4blood
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09:06:10 Apr 06 2007
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Religion has always been such a touchy topic. I believe it's where people gather together to share the same idea's and beliefs. Faith plays into it as far as faith in what you believe in. Without it it's hard to practice whatever path u take.



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xxEmaeraldxx
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10:29:51 Apr 06 2007
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Religion appears to be an inhertiance from our parents, and in turn what they believed we believe in also. I am like Heidi in the respect that before I speak out about other religions, and make decisonjs on them I make sure I am knowledgeable on the content. It is my opinion that most religions compliment each other as they all have the one shared belief, and that is God.



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satanicvampyre
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21:36:09 Apr 06 2007
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yes,w/ satanism.



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laathswei
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21:37:57 Apr 06 2007
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Yes, most people dont know what the truth is behind the religion and dont know the beleifs,
most the people I know have done little or no research into their religion and thus just take the title.



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TheBLeedingDoll
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00:12:07 Apr 07 2007
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i still have no idea why people get it in there heads that everything others say is true thats why half of the kids today say they dont believe in god or they do what they're parents say or they follow some dumb confused kid that studies a bit of witch craft in the back yard come on and then if they go half and half and get ideas from everywhere and anything and anyone they have such mixed up opions of themselves if you chose a religion it should feel natural and be one or none at all i know a girl who was so mixed up she thought she wanted to study wicca and im pagan already 5 yrs before her 8 years now and she thinks shed have a higher knowledge because she read a fiction book she wanted to try out lol funny thing is about 3 weeks after i toke her to one of my coven rituals she said it was to hard and gave up ha what a fake



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TheDemon
TheDemon

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00:36:13 Apr 07 2007
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*twitches uncontrollably*

Now the trauma has passed....

Religion is a super poltically over-investigated and -discussed topic. Very few people can agree outside their own faiths, and even within it there are rarely 100% agreements on path/doctrine, etc

Religion is an organized group of beliefs. Beliefs, faith, and power of will, are all relative... and directly related to one's perspectives. That being said... why so many close minded people exist is beyond me, but religion is far too strong a debate to really get into, or id be here for 12 pages lol



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VR System
VR System

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00:36:13 Apr 07 2007
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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