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In it's intentions I think the Three-Fold Law is clever and grounded in good intention. I think the "law" serves to keep people mindful of consequences, and one hopes makes the magic or Wiccan practitioner mindful of their responsibilities to their fellows.

It cannot be argued that the Three Fold Law has become a fixture in modern Wiccan practices, but the question is, "Is the Three Fold Law a static cosmic "law" of cause and effect?"

History would suggest no. The first appearance of the idea was in a 1949 novel called, "High Magic's Aid" written by none other than Gardner himself; penned under his craft name.

"Mark well, when thou receivest good, so equally art bound to return good threefold..."

A novel, people. In fact a novel meant to test the waters about how a mainstream "religion" grounded in witchcraft would be accepted by the public.

Then in 1975 there appears to be a specific reference in a poem written by Gwen Thompson of Connecticutt, and published in Green Egg Magazine, Ostara 1975 (Vol. III. No. 69)

Line 23- "Mind the Threefold Law ye should - Three times bad an' three times good."

There is no evidence whatsoever that this "law" is a cosmic force affecting the conduct and control of magics or witchcraft. In fact, even some of Gardner's own inner circle, when asked, think he "just made it up, and people took it way too seriously." (Doreen Valiente: FireHeart Magazine; 1991.

Between reading all of the insightful and enlightened posts on VR concerning The Three Fold Law, and doing only cursory research into the topic, I believe the Three-Fold Law to be helpful as a guiding principle, but not accurately thought of as an immutable cosmic force.

What say you? If you disagree with me, fine; but if you attempt to refute me, please provide a factual basis for your claims.

_____________SOURCES________________________
http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede3.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Three_%28Wicc an%29
http://www.earthspirit.com/fireheart/fhdv1.html
http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/3fl-3.shtml
'The Gardnerian Book of Shadows' Gardner, Gerald. Ed. Aiden Kelly. (1949).

Sevenn, could you please explain what the three fold law is?

Sure Pandora, it is the basic idea that the action, energy or intention of a particular spell or working of magic will be returned to the sender of said spell 3 times over. It is often used as an admonition that dovetails nicely with the last sentence of the Wiccan rede in that persons should "do no harm". It's similar to the idea of karmic return.

_As a wiccan, I have to say that this is seen everywhere, however, as a person, I will say that that saying, "Mind the threefold laws..." is basically like saying, "Karma is a boomerang!" What goes around comes around. I'm not very big into the magick of wicca as much as I am the ideals it has. Some people do believe that you should do no harm to others or it will come back to you three times worse than what you did, however, I've never found this to be true. All I've seen so far is that, like all things, if you do wrong to someone, karma takes over._

The 'The Gardnerian Book of Shadows' Gardner, is one books i have read conserning this. And his book on 'The complete Book of Witchcraft' has it in it as well, i believe.

Personally, i do go by this as well. But i do so to keep me mindfull, That what i send out will come back to me in some way, may be not in 3 fold.....lol

The history of the three folds law that you present Sevenn is quite interesting. I was unaware until recently that it was a conception of the 50s/60s. In the same breathe many faiths hold the idea of karma, retribution, and reward as a way to streamline people into doing good.

I would have to agree with what every one has already said , and all coming down to karma, what comes around goes around as so comes into the play the law of of attraction.... if you draw upon negitivity that is what it will bring... so hence the idea would be to dwell upon the positive to bring upon the positive. As yes I am familiar with the 3 fold law I am not wiccan, but any book you pick up it shall be in there . it just comes down to what you believe in.

Whether or not it is in modern books of Wiccan practice is not the question. I have conceded that it has indeed become embedded into modern Wiccan practices. The question here is "is the Three-Fold Law" of returns an immutable cosmic force? It is a very specific question. The question turns on the word "LAW". If your answer is yes, please explain with references.

So many people just throw the phrase around as if they A) know what they are talking about and B) Believe it to be, in fact, a LAW. A little clarification of belief isn't too much to ask for.

I have noted that the three Wiccans who have responded, were articulate and quick to point out that it is used by them as a "guide" and not a belief in Law.

For those of you that constantly drop reference to it when you are giving out your sagely magical advice, explain. (For example, reference the "Revenge Rituals" thread in this section) Not so difficult for a firmly held belief I would think.

This brings to mind the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

the intentions are sound and its not harming people, but the same cannot be said for many made-up belief systems.

Three fold is wrong and the student didn’t listen too well to Gardner. Star hawk took the system and Americanized it so it was then sold back to the mass … I got my info from trump of the moon a great book on witchcraft for all those book witches

SEVENN EDIT: Lavisbre, would you be willing to elaborate on this a bit more: what you know of the history concerning your source, specifically "what" is wrong about it...that sort of thing... I'm quite interested to hear extended and knowledgeable views on this.

ok...lol

"is the Three-Fold Law" of returns an immutable cosmic force?"

No. Not in my belief. Nothing happened that would bring me good luck back three fold that i have sent out in one fold.

There is no scientific evidence that the Three-Fold Law is anything more than an idea. When speaking of the universe the only thing you can expect is a continuation or rebuttal of your actions. Of course if you want to bring in quantum theory I suppose there may be times when such a return happens.

I agree with you completely on this. It only serves as a moral and ethical guide to, hopefully, deter people from misusing any knowledge or "power." I suppose if you are a believer in karma, or something similar, then it may turn into a personal fact. After all what we truly believe can effect our experiences..."consciousness determining reality."

I would like to mention that the "Three-fold Law" is not a Wicca only thing. The philosophy of compounded reciprocity can be found in Christianity, Buddhism and Native American (Indian) beliefs. Remember that Wicca is an extremely new system of belief and borrows many of it's tenets from the afore mentioned religions.

Sevenn, this is one of the best topics I have seen in a very long time.

Sorry The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft by Ronald Hutton. Great book I recommend all want to be wiccans smell the roses and find the true path and not the pulp fiction on the shelf.
For all the real witches we know this is gardeners joke taken literally.
It is not referring to literal Karma ot it would be called Karma three fold lol
You will not find it in gardeners teachings, it sort of turned up in green egg mag in1975 in a poem. I believe sue was the student she read from im not sure right now as im in the middle of performing a ritual and stuff is going on lol
Still before all hell opens up …. Doreen Valiente bless her cotton socks is as stunned as I am to the bastardization of our belief by the American press and star hawk.

Good wording, LadyDarkRayne. =3

With a lot of other things I believe it has a lot to do with the person at hand too. Like someone who doesn't believe in superstision, it doesn't touch them. I would like to think the same thing for this.

You will find as xzaver points out three fold is used by those who wish to control you by fear… by the police of the mind … reality is we are power and stop giving it to the control freaks… don’t believe the hype. Three fold is invented to control a new religion….

Wow Lav we agree on something!!! lol

The roots of it go back thousands of years but in it's current state it is a means of control.

It’s only the gods n faith we don’t lol

Now im going to place a fly in the ointment … wicca has been wrote by Christians… go figure lol

I think its just something from keeping people to use magic for good, not bad.

Good for flower… magic is not good nor bad but neutral.
Those who wish to control take that right from you and leave you with empty promise and futile hope

In some ways I believe that several religions were brought about to keep people in line, getting along and doing what majority believed was right. I also feel the same way about the Three Fold Law. I don't hold much faith in it being correct and that I can recall I have never experienced it. I believe that it was simply created to keep people from running around constantly harming each other. In my opinion it is pretty much the same as "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you".

That is the test between good and evil, isn't it? Do we break the law with no consequence given the chance? or do we simply do what is right regardless? I think it all has to do with the matters of the heart. I also believe that it doesn't really matter if the rule is there. If you were going to break it, you'd break it regardless. And if you weren't going to break it, you'd have nothing to worry about.

First off very good topic, I found it interesting and thought provoking. I live in a house of 4 children none of them have any specific spiritual path, i like to believe that as long as they are informed on many paths that as they get older they will choose a path that is right for them.
One day the subject of the law of three came up and i tried to explain to them that it fell along the basis of every action has a reaction. One of them even asked me why 3 and i told them they had to think of it as throwing a something into water it may sink or float or cause a ripple effectweather it comes in the form of 3 or not I don't know, but it may be followed with more than then one reaction. Good or bad you will get a reaction to your actions.
I found it to be a good law just for that teaching purpose.

I dont believe it at all. Just another "law" to make WICCA" more appealing to the masses

Whether or not someone chooses to believe in the three-fold law or even in Karma are two different ideals. It is similar to comparing apples to oranges and then saying that because they are both fruit and you don’t like apples, you also don’t like oranges.

I have to agree with the idea of the three-fold law being used as a means to tap into peoples sense of fear, to promote something good – not harming others. Even so this does not mean that the ends justify the means. Part of the reason I think three fold anything has such an ability to be popular is our societies constant use of the number three. You can take it to a geometry level of pyramids and their power, or you can simply notice a trend in many religions, math and science of the use of threes.

Personally I do believe in Karma, but not that bad things happen just because you do something bad, it is far more complex. Also I agree with the ideas behind the secret, like attracts like. Does this mean that I blame people for bad things because someone has a negative thought? No. It is more a way for me to control my thoughts and to create my own space where I choose to find joy. Others may choose whatever means they wish to create theirs it is their life. I also think that the energy put into a task is repaid through accomplishments either with that task or with another. So in that manner you get what you put into something is a statement I believe in more than a three fold law.

For example:

You go to school, and study English and grammar. You pass your classes, and later use that ability learned in school to get a job. OR

You train in a sport with the hopes of becoming a professional sports star. You don’t succeed in your original goal, but instead open a gym and coach people in that sport.

There are so many ways that our energy is returned to us. In the same way as the above is positive examples, a person can create their own negative examples.

Susie wants to date Joe, but is not confident in herself. When she starts to date him her constant asking him of what he’s doing and if she’s ok drives him nuts. He breaks up with her.

Our attitude and ability to look objectively has a great bearing on our current state. Yes bad things will happen, people we know will die, but it is what we do with life’s lessons that shape our over all demeanor. It is our choice, not a cosmic law.

It's not the concept of Karma that's at fault but the interpreters.
To me Karma is about not screwing people over, even alleged high IQ people can be a bit full of it too.

well whether or not that it may or may not return to you 3 folds .. it is just evident that things in life have a way of returning and biting you in the ass so, whether or not a scare tactic we all know that things do return to help, or harm us at some point in our life. just the way it is.

As to believing the 3 fold law ... well I think if I sent good out to some one then it may return at a later date by someone else or something else... so to me the *law* is just so people stop and take heed as to what they are doing in the first place.. just an opinion...

SEVENN EDIT: I appreciate you addressing the question directly.

The question asked was about the "Three-fold Law" not Karma. Like it was stated before, those are two different things.

As for the Three-fold Law, I feel that it is nothing more than a way to control a person by fear. Fear holds a power over a person better then any "magic" could do. It all comes down to the mentality of the person.

The only way this fear can't be applied to a person is when they are a sociopath.

Thank you Seven and as to the statement that Fear does not apply to a sociopath, LMAO!! I am not sure where you got that ideal.

A sociopath indeed feeds off fear and instills fear in people yet..... They are a sociopath because of a fear that caused them to become sociopaths I know cause I deal in this feild. Everyone and everything has *some degree* of fear in their mind. it cannot not be helped. except innocent child who has yet to even learn what fear is.

Where a sociopath has learned and uses it as one of their techniques to prey on their victims... very complex thing *FEAR*

I think the three-fold law is something that everyone should go by no matter what religion they are. If you do something wrong you are going to pay the consequences.

An eye for an eye etc is another way of putting it.

If you take something from someone in any way for example a life, you should pay for that.

Karma seems to be the closest thing to the law and that's a Buddhist principle.

Maybe it's not a cosmic thing, I think it's probably a kind of curse you put on yourself if you do something bad. You are always expecting something bad to happen back because you have caused harm.

In relation to doing good, you probably would disregard anything bad that happens to you consequently as just "normal".

"The nature of this three-fold return can perhaps be better understood when considering the cause and effect principle of a spell. Let’s take an example – someone comes to you in distress with a problem, you help by sending out positive energy and the problem is successfully resolved. This automatically makes you feel good about yourself and influences your thoughts; thus your state of consciousness is altered. In turn your thoughts stir the emotions, which has a physical effect in the body by causing glandular secretions to enter into the blood stream. The resulting state of mind and body lifts your spirit, which is what makes you feel good. Thus with the act of a single good deed, you have been effected three times, in mind, body, and spirit. This then is your three-fold response to the return of positive energy. Now consider your response had you sent out negative energy or something went drastically wrong?"

Taken from this website with a quick Google.

I'm finding a problem with the above statement though. The immediate return is not in fact three times greater than the energy expelled - which is what I think Seven was trying to get at. The return causes a domino effect, effecting three aspects of your being. This is considering you have a decent conscience.

Lav - if Wicca was written by Christians, wouldn't it have just been easier to say "Do unto others...."?

That would of given the game away to easy wolfsbohne lol
Fortunately quite a few of the top people in the wiccas development were christen and looking to clean it up or reinvent the twisted path western side took. Gardners wicca 50 years ago (which is wicass birth date), some people did a little backward engineering religion wise…… knowing western religion adopted pagan ways n converted them slightly sometimes, they re built a past sort of. im not saying it’s bad or good thing … in fact it’s all you got that survived the dark ages … except coded books and verbal stories.
Iv lent my book out the Triumph of the Moon so I cant quote names right now lol
For those who have or are a freemason will realize the initiation is the same as wiccan covens.lol the golden dawn working with angel magic and even dear Alister Crowley was working angel magic n Solomon’s key all Christian or Jewish magic…… till Alister out grew the golden gang and developed chaos magic…. I do believe Alister is being kept a secret but it should come out soon as being the guide to the development of wicca in letters to gardener including the famous words do what you will but harm none.

"Is the Three Fold Law a static cosmic "law" of cause and effect?"

Until there is a way to accurately measure a cosmic law, in a way pleasing to practioners of the arts and scientists alike ( sometime never ) there is no way of knowing.

It's good to have a reminder that this is a fairly new addition.

The pathway of any individual can be enhanced or impeded by 'new'.

Not sure where your coming from lordvlkodlak?
Christianity was taken in bites from pagans I agree and assimilated and evidence destroyed. My point on three fold was Christian reformist involved in wicca development slipped that in as you point it is sort of in the bible … my point
My point is not who stole from who I find that a loaded word and not in VR fine line on religion intolerance.
Personally wicca would not exist if it wasn’t for Christianity lol

and Karma is not three fold law?

pluss Karma can be paid back in any life time so bank it and live hard i say lol

LordVlkodlak and lavisbre,

Your responses are diverging off-topic. The question isn't about the origin of Wicca, or who stole what bit of religion from who, but of a modernist idea and whether this is an immutable 'law', or nothing more than a moralistic ideal. One which was seemingly designed to provide cover against a practice largely viewed as negative, by a Christian oriented Western society.


I do think that this concept and karma have similarities, in that actions have consequences and just maybe, the balance will come back around to kick you in the ass, but at the same time, why would it be 'three fold'?

One possible logical assumption might be as a stone is dropped in a still pool of water, the ripples reflect back and forth against one another, potentially returning to the point of origin with a stronger force.

"One possible logical assumption might be as a stone is dropped in a still pool of water, the ripples reflect back and forth against one another, potentially returning to the point of origin with a stronger force."

This is a good theory, but practical application suggests that the response force is approximately equal to the initiatory force. Newton's third law of motion.

well put Stabb, I agree it all comes back yet who is to say by 3 folds. ... what goes aound comes around in all shapes and forms whether it be 3 fold or 1 or even more just how it happens is all.

as an old saying goes
* with every action comes a reaction*

I find it funny how the threefold law has been taken to greater levels. Not so long ago on quite a few threads iv noticed three become 100 or thousand. Lol

If we bring into the debate apples and oranges by comparing something like water in a pool and a stone to magic we move a goal post to get our view across only.
Take the same pool and make it frozen water … no ripple or so no three fold.

Wolfsbohne,

To further my analogy, the evidence is mounting to support the theory of super waves on the seas.

While dropping a stone in a pool is the simplistic version of this, the actual consideration of how an action resonates its effects out into the universe can hardly be defined in standard arithmetic, which the three fold law proposes, so my analogy is relevant to the topic as it stands.

It would be a far more in-depth discussion about karmic resonance, since it is taken as an immutable force by many millions of people, and has a historical, philosophical and cultural perspective which provides ample material for lengthy debate.

But this thread is about the one idea above, which is as an apple and easily digestible, whereas 'Karma' is an entire orange tree.

I tend to agree with you as it is put into place to make people think afore they do something really nasty to someone. I don't know if it will be three-fold good or bad that comes back.
I do however feel that one does get what they give in life.

It is like the good luck bad luck thing. You do something nice it will come back to you as good luck but ten fold. if you do something bad it will come back on you as bad luck but ten fold. Am I close?

No it’s not lol and see what I mean by the 10 fold or hindered or thousand lol

I think that if you do evil deeds to others it is bound to return in one manner or another and that if you do good for others it also will return. It may not be three fold, but I think it does happen on various levels.

Doesnt this happen in life outside of magic though.
I mean if you get someone mad by doing evil things its going to come back to you sooner or later. isnt it?

or you do something evil it will come back to you with bad luck or missfortune.

As a Wiccan...the do no harm to none. That is the part that applies to me.

Think before you do. I am not only talking about magic. I am also talking about my everyday actions towards others.

All religions in one form of structured words has the meaning harm none. It is to make us think if we are harming ourselves or others by our actions.

Our actions can either bring us rewards, karmic reactions and consequences.

If I hit a car and just take off...I have given myself more consquences, then if I just stayed and bit the bullet.

Magic has karmic reactions...for what we put in the Universe may return. That can even be thought. Prayer.

Saving a abused animal...my reward is I saved a abused animal, and I feel good about myself, and about the animial. My reward.

This is just how I feel...the three sentences above are just examples.

Harm none are the most important words of the rede to me.

Not to be a pain in the butt, Stabb, I still have to disagree with your analogy.

From your link:

" In analyzing the radar images, Lehner says, the scientists have been able to determine that rogue waves tend to occur in places where waves of differing strengths come together from different directions."

This means that the rogue waves are coming from more than one source. It's like Euclidean geometry where the whole equals the sum of its parts. If you wanted to compare the effects of magic to one of these rogue waves then you could say that a group of practitioners casting a single spell simultaneously may cause an impact larger than the individuals themselves, but this still demonstrates Newton's third law.

If we're talking about the "three-fold" law being an immutable cosmic force - I would have to say no. It exists as a moral guide without any true consequence in mundane reality.

To some extend I belive in cause and effect. Everything we do, good or bad has consequenses.

As I wiccan I follow the harm noone policy, but I do not hold much faith in the Three Fold Law itself, nor do I belive it to be a static cosmic law. Three is a number that is said to be very powerful, so I guess that is why some are convinced that it will come back to you three times the strength of the thing you send out.

One action can have more than one consequenses, and sometimes it can involve more than one person.

I hold as much respect to people who abide the three fold law as I hold to others, and there is nothing wrong with holding faith in it and making it a part of your religion, but I think it is more of a fear factor to make you rethink your actions.

Ok forgive me also to be a pain in the butt, yet when Stabb had spoke of a stone in the water and the ripple it causes, is exact in my opinion the action caused a ripple Re-action to the task. There fore it is exactly as the whole 3 fold etc law, meaning every action has a Re-action ... same as doing thing evil good right wrong whatever it may be.

Everything comes back at / to us in some way or another just how it is... amybe laws of nature who knows. I just tend to agree, that it comes back at you no matter ... you just may not even be aware or know it

Wolfsbohne,

Would you consider that any action that a person takes, does not only travel in one 'direction'? The effects are diverse. As an example, a person acts which produces perhaps three significant reactions.

Reaction one has resultant impacts, as with reactions two and three- They all develop resultant effects upon the universe exponentially.

Let's say that reaction one moves in direction A. Reaction two in direction B, and reaction three in direction C.

Eventually, through cause and effect, it could be possible, and in my opinion, likely, that the results of reaction 3 will come around to interacting with the results of either 1 or 2.

So even though we are only one source of action ourselves, what we do causes many other reactions, which will eventually come back to us, perhaps stronger because others have added their own impetus to them.

So even though the waves in the analogy are coming from a different direction, they may still potentially be attributed to the same source.

I find the ripple theory is wrong analogy to use. Magic no’s no boundaries and works in ways were unclear about … so no walls no rebounds.
Add into the mix the originator of the religion (gardener) never said three fold … lol

The three-fold "law" is not immutable. It can work, or not. There are uncontrollable variables at work in interpersonal relationships, and in life. I've observed people who do good, and receive shit in their lives. I've also seen people cleverly disguise their evil actions in a mask of "do-gooder" and reap huge rewards, and die in their sleep.

I find most evil people live in big houses and sleep very well … for a long time lol

Statistics show things with a thousand to one chance of happening happen 9 times out of ten lol

Sorry bloodmother I know what your saying and witches like myself guard against this by making a witch bottle … it not to stop the spell how can it if you know magic well?
The bottle is made to make the caster of the magic against you fail and why we never use our real name … that’s why im called Lavisbre ;-)

three fold is bunk for the mass of books

i believe that the three fold law may seem bogus, but if you actually pat attention to things around you it is noticed.

Stabb,

From your link;

"Prime examples include when waves travel against a current and are focused in one area, such as around the southern tip of Africa or in the open ocean where a fast-moving storm travels over already-existing waves."

Each example exhibits two forces acting against each other.

When you further explained your thought, you demonstrated the Butterfly Effect - or light cones if you want to think of it that way. In this way, it's no longer "three". It becomes so diffuse that its more like hundreds, or even a thousand. The problem with that though, is that these reactions which may or may not come back to you are no longer influenced by your initiatory action alone. They become affected by other influences.

Wolfsbohne,

True enough, but as I said, other human interactions will add extra input to the function, which considering that our actions affect those closest around us, it would seem likely that the effect is going to be returned to us.

If I treat you badly, then you have a bad day, you treat someone else I know badly, they come round to see me and in turn, treat me badly.

In the process, the other two people might have gotten more riled with one another and by the time the third person gets to me, they are really pissed off.

How about this as seen in sales … you treat your co workers badly, they get pissed off at you and focus on you . you sell lots and go home with more money in your pockets, go out more make geed friends and that is life ... no three fold

Fair enough.

There's also the possibility of pissing someone off who is mentally unstable and who in turn simply pulls out a gun and shoots you.

Not exactly proportionate to your crime, but ....enh.

Wolfsbohne,

Perhaps not fair, but I think a good example of how being negative can come around and hit you harder than you initially hit out. lol

Indeed lol
Depends on who the mental one is lol

My point is we can lead a load of negative loaded to your view analogies and examples where the only possible out come is your point or view.
They go both ways .
So how do we answer this?
Simple … gardener never said three fold in his teachings.
I do believe the student was called sue … not sure now, she wrote it down and it was fed back to the mass in the endless rip off wicca books on the shelves … not to take away from the good ones like Cunningham’s and so forth

i believe in it..
I think it talks about it in the bible too..
It's like ying and yang
a balance
maybe not three fold maybe one for one
like an eye for an eye u know

there may not be a law for this... but to me it is a sense of blance.... true for some things not for others... i my self try to follow this as to not bring bad things in to my life... i guess you could take it as you want and have faith that if you do something to bad that it is not.... i hope only the best for you and hope that you do not displease the spirits for your sake

there will always be a reaction to every action whether it be helpful or harmful. physics has made that into a law. most eastern philosophies also account for karma, and of course you have the golden rule from christianity as well as the trinity. i think gardner might have stolen this concept from multiple sources and added his own spin on it. Just my spectulation.

As to believing the 3 fold law ... well I think if I sent good out to some one then it may return at a later date by someone else or something else... so to me the *law* is just so people stop and take heed as to what they are doing in the first place.. and whether or not that it may or may not return to you 3 folds .. it is just evident that things in life have a way of returning and biting you in the ass. I mean as was said about the stone being dropped in water how it gives a ripple effect.
we all know that things do return to help, or harm us at some point in our life. just the way it is.
This is why we live life forward yet understand it backwards... think about that..

The Three-fold law was created for control. Bad things do indeed happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Therefore, the law is without merit. William Shakespeare said it so eliquently when he stated, "Glory is like a circle in the water, Which never ceaseth to enlarge itself, Till by broad spreading it disperses to naught." The circle in the water is not increased three fold, it disperses to nothing...

A law indicates something that is irrefutable, something that the "threefold law" does not stand up to. Yes you could get back threefold from your actions, but you could also see no personal ramifications for your actions. Furthermore, there is no way to specifically measure and balance the results of two unconnected negative or positive incidents with prior actions to even conclude if karma truly will bite you in the ass or leave you with a nice Mercedes. There is no scientific or organized method of observing, so it cannot be a universal law.

Yes Doru, it does disperse yet on its path to do so it affects anything and all things in that path or ripples, therefore ripple effect is a true thing, it wipesout, touches or just change all in the path of each ripple that passes till it disperses into nothing....

just like a nuclear bomb the ripples from the blast can cause a lot of damage or change in some way or another, capise'? just a factual theory is all.

just how I was raised and taught is all, no disrepect in any way toward anyone or anything.

yes it may be just an idea but what a noble idea it is. i say it isnt poppycock if it doesnt hurt people.

can you imagine practices on the idea that no matter what you put out there theres no way it can come back to you? the scott-free law? not cool.

hottubmolly,

Are you saying that the idea was invented as a moral rule, to prevent people from using any 'power' gained from Wicca negatively?

i am saying that if that were the case then it was a wise move

i have no negative responses to me when i do a destruction ritual

why?

i want the act to happen, i do not doubt it and when i do one the prick deserves it


three fold law, my @$$

Going to play devils advocate again lol.
Using three fold as a moral rule is like making all knives blunt incase someone cut themselves ….
Magic is not good or evil just as a knife is not good or evil, who uses it and for what maybe lol
Still back to the point the person who with Alister invented this faith never ever taught three fold ……

I agree that magic is neither good nor evil, but it seams like you are saying that that proves there is no higher law of returns on investment; I don't believe that to be true... anyone in business knows that it takes money to make money... what you do with it is up to you. The more ripples you cause (as in an enclosed pool) the more the ripples bounce back at you. Not all ripples you feel are of your own creation, and not all ripples you send out are redirected back at you... some people can take the energy affect and not pass it on...

Just like someone gloating over sales success could actually inspire some people and demoralize others.

Generally, however, people pass on the ripple effect, multiplying it for a while after the initial event that affected them has passed; thus adding more ripples to the "pool" making it more likely that (presuming you are in said pool) you are affected by the law of returns. Not just yours, but those of the company you keep.

Almost every beginners level book these days on Wicca does throw the 3 fold law out as an absolute but I don't feel it to be any more than a warning about Karmic retribution, which I do believe in though rarely see.

In truth I see it as little different than the 10 commandments hanging on the wall, good warnings of what is mostly proper behavior but not something you'll immediately be struck dead for breaking.

As in most things a person of good conscience will listen and interpert the warnings as they see fit.

well alot has been said here ... I feel that anything we do always has a reaction / reprecution to the actions we do. whether it be considered magick or not. I believe in the full circle theory, that everything comes full circle eventually.

I do not care if you believe in a 3 fold law or not , I just feel we live life forward and it is 99% of the time understood backwards.

I mean I have done stuff and then years later something will happen and then I am like, yep back at me from all thoughs years ago for my actions. It could be good it could be bad.

And as the Ripple evffect I also believe it to be a good statement because the ripples touch everythings in its path until it actually disperses. So things are affected.
just my opinion.

i believe that it is all in the way you look at what is happening around you. say you do something bad your conceince is always there so when something bad happens to you. you believe that it is something you did to deserve it. becouse of my experiances i believe the the "Three Fold Law" is true and well grounded.

I don't know. because I have read a lot on witchcraft and magic. Some books say that everything you send out, comes back times three. But then others say this is false. *is confused* lol

Well darkxwhisper yes it can be confusing but if you just follow as you believe, it makes it less confusing.

Me I plainly se as what you send out whether it be negitive or positive it is retuned. As in the law of attraction, pay it forward is such a good example of it.
but there are people that just like to be negitive and there for , their lives are how they percieve it to be.
As for some that live a positive jouful life giving with out the expectation of recieving, volunteering and just living a positive life there for they are happy and good things come to them.

Me personally i went thru a few years of having a a lot of negitivity, and there for things were terrible, but when i changed my way of thinking and living it did a 360 and all started going well and the rewards of living such a life has blessed me .

i also agree with what everyone has said...
it is like karma..
it comes back to you..
only in a different form that was delt out...

There's no solid evidence for such proof- I believe in reaping what you sow, karma, basically. What goes around comes around- in some way, shape, or form- I definitely believe that...
It's the threefold part that gets me, I don't think it's necessarily THREEfold. I think it was meant to be taken seriously, just in very loose terms.

Karma shmarma...I've seen too many people who did good and were generally good people get screwed over while the "screwers" get away with it.

I just don't buy the three fold law or karma. It sounds like a wonderful idea that I just have rarely ever seen enforced.

Okay... here is what I believe...

I think that the three fold law is crap, and has no cosmic affect.... most people have placed this three fold law in their heads so deeply that when they do something wrong and know it... they almost make something come back and happen to them in return... OR when something does happen they blame the three fold law... its merely a state of saying.... a guilty conscience will tell on its self. I dont think that karma and the three fold law are one in the same though... perhaps I just have a different way of looking at things.

Although I do tend to be mindful of it, I do not think of the three-fold-law as a "law" I do agree in that it is something intended for the masses of Wiccan followers to abide by as in just a good and moral thing to do, lest ye face what you send out comming back at you. I also believe that it is also very similar to the creeds or rules of other religions. One very common example would be the Holy Bible. If one read it cover to cover it is contradictory in and of itself in many places. BUT it is often called "the good book" as in to give a general basis of good and moral rules to its believers/followers. But to say that any of them are a cosmic forces or laws...No, I do not believe this could be proven. They were written by men for other men to follow and be mindful of.

I think it [the Three-Fold Law] is pretty much crock.

Honestly, I'm sure if there were retribution for a magic cast it would be worse than three fold.

There is no threefold law, simply words written by those who would make the world think it was safe from witches. GBG had his objective, to provide as much publicity for himself and witchcraft as possible, and caste it in a positive light. lavislores early post about GBG as he is portrayed in "Triumph of the Moon" by Ronald Hutton documents this viewpoint. Also "Crafting the Art of Magic" by Aidan Kelley also reveals much about GBGs agenda. Unfortunatly those who follow the Craft 50 years later, many with no knowledge of the practice except from reading books, have no way of seperating the BS from the actual truth. "And harm ye none, do as you will" is not a law, but a suggestion.

Although I have never witnessed the threefold law in action I do try to abide by it... I do believe in Karma so feel the threefold law is just an extension of that.

from what i have read i believe that the Three-Fold Law is a way to keep those with power from abusing. as many have said, it is just another way of saying "What goes around comes around"

or "don't do anything bad or the boogeyman will get you."

Scare tactics to not do anything bad...that's all it is in my opinion.

LOL well that would work if your afraid of the boogey man LOL

I feel as some said here that what goes around comes around. Actions cause reactions whether good or bad.

and I also have seen alot of good people do good and get screwed .. YET ... later in the long run good things came to them, I mean you have to recognise things also around you . I have done many spells and magical things yet I have not ever had anything "bad" come back on me. I feel it is alot with what your doing, how your doing it etc. The 3 fold law is just a warning I feel so people take heed as to what they are doing and to whom and why?

I mean my thing is this, 1) reason for spell, 2) outcome I want from it, 3) but mostly ... is it really worth the time and effort and is the reason justified whether it is good or bad that your doing .
just me.

it's about installing fear in people. You tell them somethng bad is going to happen if there not good maybe they will be good... I have however seen karma come back to bite people in the butt. Although it's usually for everyone else.

What you put out you wil get back. Just like if your rude all day all you will get is rude back.

that is not always true. i have, on numerous occasions, been a complete prick for weeks at a time and nothing bad happened to me.

It is like the old saying. Treat others as you wish to be treated. Whatever you send out always comes back to you. The three fold law means that any spell you cast will come back times three. It is the law of the universe. I believe it is tied in with karma. And believe me, karma is indeed a major bitch!

Well i say if you start something you cant handle why start. it

oook...

Cause and effect is no secret. That is logical. If you do something, something else will happen because of it. I think the three-fold law was just a concept for people to keep in mind, just as you said.

It never made sense to me that something would come back three-fold. It never has. Three-fold is just excessive.

Whatever you will do unto others will come back to you some way...

Be nasty to your waiter, maybe someone spits in your food :P

weather or not the 3 fold law is real, it is a good insetive for people to send out happiness and joy to others. i rather live by the 3 fold law than to let everything bad go knowing nothing i can do will change it

But you can change it. The three fold law won't bring about the consequences for someone's actions, but we as people can.

Whatever name you give it, such a 'law' still seems to exist. It's the old story, whether to do with witchcraft or not, but "what goes around come around".

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