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Well, actually, I didn't, but that's the kind of far-out claims that some people make.

One man tried to convince eBay users that the face of Jesus appeared in a pancake. It was subsequently withdrawn after they discovered a firm who sold frying pans with a face embossed on the bottom.

Another saw the face of Jesus scratched on his pan, and mentions that a grilled cheese sandwich with the image of the Virgin Mary recently sold on eBay for $28,000.

Further, in examples not owned, but coming out of nature, they seem to raise up faith in people, to reinforce their beliefs and ultimately, help them be a 'better Christian'.

The phenomena is not limited to one religion and only Jesus, but can be experienced by many across diverse religions and walks of life.

The question is, are all of these just money spinning ideas, or could some be genuine?

If real or not, does it really matter to those who believe, with all their heart, since they act upon that belief anyway?

I would say the answer is both. We have people that will prey on our beliefs to make money. As long as people are willing to pay for what they believe is being sold to them then people will try to make as much money as they can.

I also think some people wanting hope in thier lifes really belief they see these things. If it gives them hope then it is not really a bad thing

Okay you asked us the question Stabb666 what do you think it is????

And me I believe it just a scandal so others can make money on ones faith........I mean not unless one of the mircales happened and jesus or god did it himself.

Now I have a question why do people always use jesus and not god on such matters???

I think those that are real would be so precious to the finder that they woul dnot part with them, those who sell them openely are out ofr money, sadly for them.

people believe so they see what they want

Sex sells! But, so does Jesus! lol (No offense to anyone who may be religous.)

I think those who use religous claims in order to profit by it, show how genuine their faith really is, or is not!
Some of the images and or claims are barely recognizable as religous figures, other than to the person making the claims.
How miraculous is it to imagine any figure in nature or anywhere else? Others may see or imagine a completely different figure or image, or nothing at all.
To some, I think it just shows where their mind is at or what they're thinking about, much like an artist imagines a painting before it's created.

I love the titles you give your posts.

If the people who find these items are true believers, why are they selling these things? Why wouldn't they keep them as precious treasures?

Are they legitimate findings? Sure, if you tilt your head this way and squint your eyes like that, you might be able to see the Virgin Mary. Or it could just be Mother Theresa. Or it could be my next door neighbor. Not a single one of us can claim that we know what the Virgin Mary or Jesus looked like.

So it's all in the eye of the beholder, and then in the fist of the money-holder.

Do you remember the Virgin Mary found on the burn marks of the grilled cheese? It sold on ebay for $28,000.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6511148

I personally believe that these are just money making ideas, and it was obviously very successful for that grilled cheese eBay-er.

Makes me want to go to a Waffle House and have some lunch.

Not really.

Whatever gives others hope and faith...whether it's a televangelist or seeing the Virgin Mary's likeness in a grilled cheese sandwich...if it makes that person happy and boosts their faith, it can't be wrong.

What can I say Wolfsbohne? I'm imaginative. lol


While it can easily be seen as a way to make a fast buck, what about those which aren't for sale, such as the tree?

Might that have been miraculous, or could it just be the work of a fanatical Christian wanting to stir up some publicity?

Are there any examples of religious imagery which anyone here finds to be 'real' to themselves?


I feel that in some cases, coincidence occurs naturally, but being that I view the entire universe as a God-form, there is a reason for me to question if some may be manifestations, but at the same time, why do they appear just as they are currently represented in popular religious iconography?

The question is, are all of these just money spinning ideas, or could some be genuine?

It could be both, often for money. I also heard of seeing statutes of the Virgin Mary crying, which often tend to be not a miracle at all, photos of clouds with an eye symbol and say it is the eye of god etc...

Also people who claim they have seen the Virgin Mary and talked to her and am not referring to the Fatima and Lourdes sightings only, but sightings in modern times have been reported too but never approved by the Pope to be real.

If real or not, does it really matter to those who believe, with all their heart, since they act upon that belief anyway?

For many yes considering that everytime something like this comes up believers pray where the 'miracle' has happened, like with the Virgin Mary's sightings, Virgin Mary's statues crying blood, etc...

In Malta there is a tree branch with the form of a cross and because of this people have decided to put candles around it.

Honestly if I was a believer I'd still pray in my own house. I was taught that god is everywhere therefore no need to go to a particular place to pray and still I'd be doubtful how much sightings would be real considering many just want profit from it as often it is proven so.

I also think that any religous figure would be able to see into (depending on what your religous beliefs are) the heart and soul of a person and determine if their heart was pure. I doubt they would appear to someone who's only motives were to profit from the occurance.

i find this question hard to answer due to my own beliefs. So I don’t get my post pulled again or banned for three days as usual. If I was to see a pentagram in an apple it is normal if you cut it sideways so no, if I seen a pancake with Alister Crowley on it … no I wouldn’t pay more than the pancake was worth. I don’t believe any religions gods or underlings would show major figures in food. Ownership of relics is one thing but food??? Ridiculous … Ps I have a sandwich for sale it looks like Elvis lol

People just want it too bad. Although many say faith is enough- they can't help for pine for the tangible. They want something they can see... even when they say it isn't necessary. *some people anyway :)

"Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe." -Saint Augustine

Might that have been miraculous, or could it just be the work of a fanatical Christian wanting to stir up some publicity?

Could be both, but then it seems that people who really believe tend to see/expirience these things...maybe too obsessed that they imagine they are seeing something that it is not there? (in case they can't have proves)

Then I'd ask: What if it happens to a non believer? Would that mean money profit or a sign? Would s/he change her mind?

Are there any examples of religious imagery which anyone here finds to be 'real' to themselves?

Not exactly but I went to Lourdes in France, where the Lourdes sightings have occured. It is said that when you go into the water from where the Virgin Mary appeared you get up dry. I didn't exactly get up dry but I dried easily. Still I don't see it as a miracle what if some mineral got taken away to make it so?


I feel that in some cases, coincidence occurs naturally, but being that I view the entire universe as a God-form, there is a reason for me to question if some may be manifestations, but at the same time, why do they appear just as they are currently represented in popular religious iconography?

I saw a face on that tree, but who is to say it is of Jesus? Simply because it has a beard? Could it be of a ghost or another entity instead?

It seems to me people are quick to judge that the image in particular belongs to a religious identity and proclaime it is a miracle, but by saying this I don't ignore the possibility of it being real either. Who am I to say that it is not?

One guy just had a bike accident, supposedly his gravel rash depicted the virgin mary

Heard of a man saying that he saw jesus mother in a piece of toast

The grilled cheese was also featured on an episode of Penn and Tellers show Bullshit if memory serves right.

"I need something to show me a sign. So, to prove themselves to me and others they have sent me a very profitable item that will draw media from around the world. Hallelujah!!!"

Its a cross between desperation for money, attention, and confirmation of faith in my opinion.

The "term" for this is 'pareidolia'. Pareidolia is a type of apophenia, most specifically the minds ability to connect random or meaningless data into patterns.

People are more familiar with this than they might, at first, think. The Rorschach inkblot test is a form of directed pareidolia and works on the same principles as religious pareidolia.

C.S. Lewis, (yes he wrote the Chronicles of Narnia for his grandchildren) a prominent Christian theologian, wrote quite extensively about pareidolia and basically summed it up with the idea that because his mind was already "wired" to see religious figures and because he wanted to see them, he saw them frequently in many different places.

In most Apophenia, and especially with pareidolia people most often see faces. As an interesting aside, one of Daire's most recent journal entries visually demonstrates this exact tendency.

It's quite common, and therefore I would not advise making plans for the rapture or purchasing 30 thousand dollar sandwiches anytime soon.

Speaking about faces I've got a picture in my portfolio which to me has faces all over it yet not everyone sees them, I even sent it to a paranormal site and they said they didn't see anything.

Would faith have anything to do with this?

ok, so all i need is a jesus stencil and some toast and i could sell them like hotcakes. or toast actually, lol.

This type of phenomenon is also similar to placebo effect. Where the body can create miraculous responses simply by the person being told they are receiving a drug that can cure them. Does it happen to everyone, no. Still in clinical trials the placebo effect can be effective between 30-60% of the time which is more effective than some drugs.

Do I think that the item holding the image of the religious figure causes the occurrence of miracles? No, I view it as the belief of that religion creating a placebo effect in the believer. It is a similar principal to those that rub rocks or dolls to relieve stress. Even if the item was genuine and created by a higher power, it could be argued that all of nature and what we create has that same principal. The primary difference is that the energy focused or used by the item creates a psychological effect that leads to physical changes. Much to the glee of those that sell these items.

The ones that give free admission to see the wonder.. they are not interested in money.. their is another motive.. Promotion, their is also pious fraud, Our Lady of Watsonville, Ca (near-by me). The Virgin Marys'
Image appeared in tree sap.. People flocked to see it. After the lady that claims she found it got annoyed by the larger then expected attention, announced that is was faked.. People still show up looking for it..
The Golgen Nugget Casinio buys oddities, sort of like Ripley did. did you know there are werehouses filled with statues that cry.. perfume, oil, "blood". Some with clock works. When people that base their faith on physical things struggle they need to have something "tangible". The church has really stepped up, by denouncing pious fraud, yet the sensationalist will always see dollar signs in congragations.

Oh and if any body is interested I have gems mined from Atlantis.. they are free.. But require a charging period.. that will cost you 25 dollars or 15 pound UK.

organized religions are (occasionally, and only occasionally) a money train, and faith sells, as we all look for something to believe in, to reinforce our beliefs and qualm our fears. who am i to doubt the cottage cheese sightings, but shame on anyone trying to profit from religion...

Slivers of the Cross .. Or back to the medicine show.. Healing belts.. ( stuffed with pepper powder.. to create a warming sensation,) or what about if you buy my book how to make a million dollars..? when people fail to look into motive they are prone to exploitation, I know that churches have fund raisers, they also collect tithes. It is likely a third party outside the esstablished religious instituit or home study groups.. that are likely to exploite members found and recruited from a church..

So say for example.. I am a disgruntled church member.. who needs money.. I know all the motions.. I go to a few prayer groups and announce that I have a fund raiser I am doing.. I use a pretense for the fund raiser (deleted for purpose) and they want to see me reach a "rightous' goal I give them candy bars (bought whole sale or collected from discarded stock) wrapped in fund raiser wrappers, now even promising them a quarter for each bar sold. I am no longer needed to convince others, I just show up to collect the money..

So... If I take Sevenn's idea and sahahria's idea and make a sugar pill with an ink blot type image on it... will I make millions?

SEVENN EDIT: ixnay on the blotter-ay...most people call that LSD ;) Seriously though, if it looks like Jesus or the Virgin Mary you might be able to sell it. Some people collect it.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I actually agree with you both. I just had to make that joke. You both raise valid points.

I really believe that this type of thing is actually a lot more harmful than believing in "fairy tales"

From my experience, people who believe in fairy tales generally have something in the back of their head that tells them that it just isn't real, no matter how much they want to believe.

However, something like this, the toast I mean, can be more dangerous to some people. It gives them something they can hold and feel and smell etc. Its a physical object. So it adds credence to their belief. It's "real" even if the concept behind it might be embellished.

Thats just my take on it. Feel free to call me out.

Wonder Cures.. Money Luck Charms ... Money Spray.. Fairy Tears.. one second .. *digs deeper into ba.. something .. "for your friends lack of firmness... for the Gents.. *nudge nudge..

It's actually gotten so bad that now they have cookware with images raised in the bottom of the pot or pan so that you can now may your own pancakes with the face of jesus or biscuits with the virgin mary or whatever you please. So we have turned a fanatic craze into actual profit!

I remember as a kid seeing a tv show with a potato chip that was very similar to the most common pictures of Jesus at that time (think King James Bible pics) It wasn't for sale but was being shown as a sign that Jesus was still showing his presence in our world in a physical way.

Sure there are people that are into it for money or trickery it's just human nature for that to be so. But some folks truly believe in what they are seeing. It strengthens their faith and reinforces their mental images, I believe.

Myself I believe it's just coincidence when it occurs in nature without man having manipulated it in one manner or another.

I do find it funny that it's mostly a person of that faith that actually sees the image, others have to be persuaded to see it.

Business is business… now where was that pancake mix again… lol
Im not surprised people are buying food for so much, I do ask what next a shroud?

Novelty is a booming biz.. look back to Bill Board Magazine.. trinkets bought for pennies sold as items of faith or stones with bought for pennies dipped in camphor and sold for 1 dollar.. now here is the real crack.. the images of saints.. (or even Elvis) catch on and a company says hay lets make this for all people , not just religious people are going o buy a jesus image pan, the same company will release an elvis image as well.

And btw for two years straight during the ten year anniversity of elvis' death there where more claims of elvis sitings then mary..

Ya know ,I think some folks are out for the money.But then again I think some really believe and if that makes them happy and secure. More power to them.
I think most folks nowadays with all the stressors of daily life, world crisis, etc. They are looking for some sign of comfort or sanity.Perhaps this is a comfort thing for them.

I think that some people want so hard to believe what they see, in order to feel good about themselves, or to feel a special bond with a higher power...
I read somewhere (a joke) that an atheist saw the Big Bang in a pizza ( or something like that)...

i think that alot are just way to get people that just so want to beleive in something to spend money on bogus bs but do think that people will believe in almost anything if they have no beleif in themselves.

This has something to do with the Dark Network??? lol

Seeing Jesus or anyone in something is actually rather common.

The day my friends grandmother died she and I went to a restaurant. When she got her drink she yelled "I see granny in my ice!"

People are trained to look for faces from the moment we are born. If our minds are on a person or Jesus etc then we are pretty likely to see them in an object.
We can take these "sightings" as many things, confirmation, to take action, omens and so on.

There may be times when an entity shows itself in an object, to what end who knows, but over all it's just a matter of facial recognition. Kinda like seeing a face on the moon or Mars ;) It's just wishful thinking..or pixelation hehe.

im gona go with scandal, people always look for ways to prey on those that are gullable like the elderly and deeply religous. Just my 2 cents

People wHo sHare tHeir faitH want tHat Item as a fixed prop. OtHers want tHe item to be at tHeir conveinance. wHy study your faitH wHen you can just get it served to you in a trinket.. it goes back to Lavs THread
"fools" aving a solviener.. placing to muc on an item.. te person will likely lose more ten just tHe item, wHen THey do lose it.

I suppose the same could be said for the Shroud of Turin as sceptics believe that its just another religious relic that was invented to drum up the pilgrimage business and impress infidels. One theory is that "a male model was daubed with paint and wrapped in the sheet to create the impression of the figure of Christ.

“Other evidence of medieval fakery includes the shroud’s lack of historical record prior to the mid-fourteenth century—when a bishop reported the artist’s confession—as well as serious anatomical problems, the lack of wraparound distortions, the resemblance of the figure to medieval depictions of Jesus, and suspiciously bright red and picture like “blood” stains which failed a battery of sophisticated tests by forensic serologists, among many other indicators.” (Nickell 2005)

In terms of faith, those who believe often have an inherent need to believe in something and find solace within that, regardless of evidence or scientific proof that suggests otherwise.

They're always after me lucky charms!

There was a question posed about what about non believers. I think that is a good question. Maybe for non believers this is a sign to say there is a higher being to give us our eternal life in some way shape or form

or an attempt by believers to produce "evidence" of their faith. sort of, "well here is your physical proof, I believe it is what it is claimed to be(like a sliver of the cross) so you should as well."

Non believers have their "lucky rabbits feet". we also are likely to buy the Cure-Alls, Meditation lights, and Money charms.

I believe that some can be genuine. I think it can be disappointing to believers who put their trust into a false healer or fake religious phenomenon. Perhaps the disappointment comes from placing faith on something outside of oneself that ultimately turns out not to be a genuine manifestation of Spirit.

I believe they're money making ideas though up so people can make a quick buck.
If these occurrences happened once every 100 years then maybe I'd believe that something miraculous has happened, but when people start claiming to see Jesus in a piece of toast or the Virgin Mary in chocolate drippings every month or so around the world, then it becomes an eye rolling moment.
But in any case, it's what you believe in and if that floats your boat, then so be it.

Even if some of these instances are genuine there has been so much BS that its hard to believe anything you hear anymore. Some people are just plain greedy and will do anything to make a buck or two.

Some people really need something to believe in, even if it is a virgin mary in toast or a birthmark shaped like jesus.. Plus ebay is widely used for those selling anything and everything. Bunk or Real i guess it is all about if the buyer of the item believes its real.

Some people just want others to think them special, "Oh how great Martha has ghost plasm in a bottle." "So Martha, can we test it?"

"No." Says Martha, "It will evaporate if you break the seal."

"Roy has a pill that will grow his hair back.." "Really Roy, how long have you been taking the pill?" "Well I am in the second phase, the third one is when I get hair.."

Medicine performers would have a person come through a town ahead of a performance, and give free samples of a product ( a watered down tincture) They will also likely pose as a medical consoltant of sorts, all this info is then taken back to the medicine show leader, and it sets the script for the act, Fakirs go along way back, some even using addictive substance to bolster product sales.

The one of Jesus' face on a tree in New York cracked me up. It didn't look like JUST Jesus...it looked like and guy with a beard...OMG IT WAS TED NUGENT!!!!!

I think if people need to believe in that sort of thing then so be it, far be it from me to smash anyone's beliefs...but use some common sense people...lol, it's just a friggin pancake :P

In my point of view, faith could be considered a "curse" when it comes the decision making process. As most times when a "miracle" occures, this faith clouds the individuals judgement. In many cases, the naive result would be having the belief in such "faith", to make the wrong decision, thus causing the individual to believe the wrong decision was accurately presumed as the right decision in their minds.

I think the term I am looking for here is "blind faith." Whether or not the manipulated images were real or not, it is this "blind faith" that makes it real. Though in my point of view, it is a money making process, since...As ~Wolfsbohne~ so adequettely put it, if said individual knew it were real, then they would have kept it as memorabilia.

In many cases with the Virgin Mary Catholics will believe anything, and use anything to scare, or manipulate their Parish into being straight hardcore believing Catholics. I know this cos my Godmother Clara is one of those people. A lot of my family thinks that it's just a hoax. I believe anything could happen, but until it is proved otherwise most are just hoax's.

Honestly, I think the majority of it is people trying to make money. But who knows....maybe a percentage of these instances are genuine.

It's kinda' sad really...I'd actually like to have some of the so-called hoaxes turn out to be real...then see how everyone - including myself - would react.

I think if I look hard enough I can see 'signs' pretty well everywhere.

I don't think I would tell anyone except perhaps a friend or two if I 'saw' anything really far out.

Greed and curiosity motivate some people, there is also some amusement perhaps in owning such things.

Personally I have better things to spend my money on.

great topic.... i do not believe that these happenings are true... i think they are made up

there was a pack of Raman on there once that someone drew an upside down 5 point star and wrote Devil above the word Raman

it almost looked like it was printed that way until you view the larger image...... stupid people


but hey, suckers are born everyday, take advantage of that buy selling them junk on ebay

The cases of various Jesus appearing faces are certainly a money making idea for those wich believe that they can make money with that certain fantastic phenomena, than again we cant say that the phenomena it self is a big business, or that it is making alots of money. It would bring some media attention on those wich are in the center of that happening, and for those wich are more lucky, even some money. But all this is very rare successful of course.

If real or not, it wouldnt matter for those wich are interested in making this profitable, but for those wich sincerely cultivate religious and spiritual beliefs these phenomenas would influence their mind to a deeper depth, it would stimulate them to something wich can be called a spiritual awakening, or further stimulate them to cultivate their beliefs in God, spirituality, and His ways, wich are, be, do, good, do not harm, so I believe that these occurrences might serve as good influences to many people wichs mind is a mind of a believer in to the invisible force wich is in and out, and operating trough everybody, and everything, all around.

God has His own way of working trough the people, sending messages, signalising to the mind of a individual so he can understand these messages as reminders of God, that He is there, and for those wich are thinking, believing this way, these appearing faces of Jesus, this phenomena, is a real reminder on them selves, that God is there, that He exist, that He cares for everybody, and a further motivator for people to continue their proper conduct in the spirit of God. The message of God is supposed to lead toward self-improvement, and elevation, thanks to the proper conduct, proper thought, proper interaction with our own environment.

Whether the faces are not real, or some of them only, it doesnt really play any role, since there is a very well established thought, a very well established philosophy of living and interacting with the world, trough a philosophy of a God, in peoples mind, and these faces certainly serve those wich are very well familliar in to the thought it self.

Whether God exists or not, or who believes or not, at this point of out minds that plays no role beacuse the philosophy wich is associated with the philosophy of God, and his faces, is certanly a functional one, and a good one, so all and that is associated with the God, or many of his faces, is only of our good use, and to our lives, our beings, so again I say besides the money making idea that serves to those wich believe that way, the spiritual idea associated with those images/occurences/faces will certainly serve for those that think and believe that way, their inner reflection of them selves and the world, by reflecting on these images in that philosophy/light wich God meant them to reflect, wich should again lead to the improvement of peoples perceptions, conduct, learning process, and ultimatly the elevation of the society as a interacting whole in this Universe.

To me it is just another scheme for unscrupulous people to line their pockets.

What if it happens to a non believer?

The theories, which are proven to work, and used frequently by different therapists, both Sevenn and Saharia offered contains solid facts, and valid points.

The mind sometimes see bits and bites but in order to make sense, it chooses the most "logical" completion.

You can actually try the ink blot test at home. Have a friend making some on white paper, and see what you come up with. I would be surprised if not at least one will be connected to religion, but again it probably depends on how religious you are.

Lagniappe; That was a great way of posting the meaning of religion. I have never seen it like that myself, but it has given me something to think about.

Sorry Stabb, I responded a little too quickly.

I hadn't looked at the image on the tree or in the bath tub.

When I was an early teen, I was very close to my grandfather. He often gave sagely advice, layed a kind hand on my shoulder when support was needed, gave me a place to stay when there wasn't one... that sort of thing. He gave me my first beer! Hooray beer!

One night he was struck by a car and died. My family came from all over the US in a matter of hours. One uncle saw a shooting star and claimed that it looked like a tear drop splashing on a shoulder. The next night, I swore I saw my grandfather sitting in his chair at the dining table like he had never left. When I blinked he was gone.

We may see things in objects, or things that aren't even there because we want to see them. For religious purposes, the average Christian wants to see the return of their King (though they may not admit it fully to themselves).

I have heard things like this before, all i have to say is that people believe what they see, dont know if they is truth to the things they claim to see

I'm sure many of these "hoaxs" are man made to make money. But there are a few that happen by accident and although the source is confirmed to not be divine, those who truly believe in the hearts do not care.
Take for example one instance that happened in my home town. A tree was found to be "crying" and people came from everywhere saying that the water was holy, like a fountain of youth, said to heal, etc.
Well, turns out a water main under the tree had busted and part of the inside of the tree was rotted or dead so that's how the water was coming out. Even after they announced this, people still came to collect some of the water from the tree. Just goes to show you that true believers cannot be swayed by certain facts.

My personal favorite is the Jesus cheeto.

I don't think every religious pancake, omelet, and grilled cheese is necessarily a money making scheme, but I'm sure they don't mind profiting off of their ebay sell to the faithful.

i think that these are a combination of both actually...those who try and sell what they find are just out to scam people...if someone found Jesus' face in something and were devout in their beliefs they wouldnt sell it...they may want to share it with the world but they would never give it up in my opinion

plus what appears to be jesus to one person may just look like a random guy to another or maybe not even a person at all...its all dependant on the person viewing the object and their beliefs

Some can be genuine. For vexample, a friend of mine back in 2001 had a piece of paper with some smeared ink on it. He told me to stare at it for a certain amount of time. Then he told me to close my eyes and tell him what I saw. While my eyes where closed I saw the image of Jesus Christ. I told him what I saw and was
shocked about the whole thing for days.

People's beliefs are sacred to them...ridiculous or not, it's what makes them happy and gives them faith.

Whether you find faith in a pancake, grilled cheese sandwich or in a dogs butt.

I just think its pure coinsedence, if it does resemble the face of jesus or any other symbolic religous symbol in anyway, and yes i believe its a money making scheme.

I will revert to my faithful stand by.. Craft.. that is right, if you want something sentimental make it. Craft it with your cogragation. Even sell them at fundraisers, it is what churches do.. doing things together.

when crosses tarnish
believers will seek relics
when no relics are found
they will settle for trinkets


In jail people make weaved crosses, I made "wooden" crosses.
I know a pasture who taught his congragation(A Rehab Church)
To replace the drug ritual with hobby, Needle point, Weaver craft, and that is something they can show for their faith. Relics are good for churches.. people need their alters to have certain things, those that seek to be noted for there "posh devotion' will be had. Those that are with a church to develop an assurance will place such things in perspective.

Meeper -

They had a Jesus cheeto? o.O

You can always make the stuff yourself with a laser as well. Here is a link.

Genie stones where popular when I was a kid you took the stones and held them and asked a question.. then when you held the stone in your hand an image yes no maybe.. would appear.. all done with chemistry.

Myself personally, I think it is just a way for those people to draw attention to themselves. They are hoping that all those "rag mags" will buy into what they are claiming & they can rake in some money. But, I also believe that there are some people who's faith is so powerful that they think they see Jesus in everything they look at.

The tendency for people to "out testify" each other is a factor that divides churches into splinter groups, Baptist don't accept sensationalism, (example speaking in tongues..) some Spiritualist don't give credence to sects that still hold seance'. The core accepted belief is lost in such could be things and events. it is not limited to religion, Financial scams use ploy Device as well. A new router was made to look like an answer to spam, every one either invested or stocked up on "product' the guy just created a clandestine operation window to "prove his claim" then attributed it to the device. A pesky thing spam.. "lapse of faith" with a promise of a one time fix, for a limited time. Buy Now.. Now available in stores..

the mind sees what it wants to. like how faces are prominantly what most people see when looking at/for things in images. inkblots and clouds, shadows, and many other innanimate objects.

to call it a miracle is such a cop-out.

its a funny coincedence at best. so you say you saw jesus in your food. i have a question for you, whens the last time you saw jesus in person? do you really think he would preform a miracle in such a degrading way and to a random person who lives in a time that is millenia from his own time? no i seriously doubt these "MIRACLES" and more importantly i doubt the credibility of the source who claims it is as such!

and some people profit from suckers, apperently theres a market for "MIRACLE" food. someones gotta supply.

if people believe in God with all their heart, then why would it matter if his face was seen on a grilled cheese or not??
i believe that some of the claims are for money and some are genunie...
but people that believe in God should not need some stupid claim to believe in God even more... if they believe then that should be all...

its just a coenceadence that an image of some kind just happenes to pop up in weired places. and people see what they want in an image . so in turn they use it as a get rich quick skeam. and some people flock to see the images and pay what ever they are asked just to get a glimps of it...

Slippingamongtheshadows -

Possibly to furth increase their faith.

Slippingamongtheshadows -

to elaborate on dylans point, people can be very religous and believe that god exsists with every fibre of there being, however, something that resembles the face of god (or jesus) in something like a pancake, or a cheeto, would only make the belief stronger.

I think its both Stabb..some are in it to make the buxxx and others see Jesus in everything they do. Everywhere they look,there are omens etc..
I saw a potato chip go for an unbelieveable amount once, because it looked like him.
Humans are predators..need I say more?

But are these things which aren't deliberate man-made images, just a coincidence of nature, or a manifestation of a supernatural force?

a few may be genuine but most are money making things. theyre just tryng to make money on those of us christians that takee extremes.

Hmm,I would prolly say random..there are only so many shapes that occur in nature,repeating themselves,whether in chips,sandwhiches or goop.
Take the Belted Galloway cow for instance..now if one's God might be an oreo,think how that would make them feel when they saw a herd of these things..Kindof a half baked point,but hopefully you'll know what I mean.
We can see almost anything in anything..its just how our mind processes it.
I personally dont feel its anything paranormal.I mean ,if you had control of all the powers that be,would you show up in a damn tub a cheese?

But then again,if you want to go this route,I am a firm believer that a thought can make things manifest..maybe not close to home,but it does.Collective thought ,in that case would be much stronger,and therefore ,I guess stuff could should up anywhere..Maybe alot of peeps think of Jesus while theyre eating...
Or hungry.

Oceanne,

I see your point, as with the Giants Causeway in Ireland, and some curious geometric patterns in the permafrost of Alaska, but with appearing in the cheese, I think it may depend on who is eating that tub of cheese.

If it is someone who is highly religious and has a well-defined concept of what Jesus would look like, then perhaps their mind would play a trick on them, but what if it were not a firm believer?

What if the face of Jesus appeared to someone in need of that kind of faith, but had never looked to religion before?

That event may change their life, perhaps even for the better, so is it not a valid experience for them, or should the 'voice of reason' atheist come to that person and deconstruct their belief system, because it was 'just cheese'?

I agree with you across the board here Stabb,all good points.

As with the cheese,now ,Im going out on a limb when I say this,but will ,just for thought/argument sake...
Maybe since food is processed and soft,it easy to shape a thought in it...and it just ends up there. whether it was caused tby the one eating the cheese ,or another.Either way,somehow their mind was linked on that given thought at the same time,and it manifested.

As for peeps with no religious background..we have all seen depictions of what Jesus is supposed to look like..many,at a very early age.Well,that memory ingrains itself,whether we realize it or not,so anytime we think of him,he will come across as we saw him.
And perhaps,because of what it represents,if a person is alone,depressed or distraught for some reason,and looking for a change,they might very well be prone to see such things.
Oh,and on a last thought,when you say one with lack of faith..I think it might be the opposite..they have it,but have no place to put it.

No,I say it is a valid thing for them.Everyone has their own way of understanding the world around them..if one can read a message in cheese that gives them God? Fair enough..but Im sure not gonna spend my money..ebay or anyplace else..

It really depends on who the person is, if there religous, and how much faith they have in there religon (if there religous).

Differnt people are going to interpretate it differntly, which leads me to the question,

would it make a signifficant difference, or a difference at all in the place they seen the face,

for example, would it matter if they saw it in on a crisp packet or in a church window?

So the consensus seems to be that we don't believe in miracles, nor would we pay good money for one that probably isn't, but by the same token, ghosts, UFO's, demons and a host of other supernatural phenomena are often easily accepted as 'real'.

Does religious epiphany compare with experiences of the occult?

Deadlyviper -


I don't think it would matter much [if at all] to a believer, as long as it appeared somewhere.

Hmm good point.It has me wondering too,so if I shift gears here somewhat during this convo,dont be suprised.
Im not so sure if it is a matter of being "real" perhaps more of just a different .But see,I dont look at any of it as paranormal.But weve been tho that convo before,so I wont repeat myself.
And honestly? I dont think one can believe in demons and ghosties without having some kind of belief in Gods..or God,even if the believer doesnt choose to worship or declare them as a patrone.Doesnt mean it isnt there.This only real difference I see in Gods is that the one true,declares he is the baddest in the field..pecking orders are a way of life,why cant it be the same for those kinds of beings?

I do believe in both miracles and the paranormal but having less experience with miracles I tend to be more questioning of them when claimed. I do not find them in the random appearance of "pictures" in natural items. A miracle is more an effect to me than an appearance.

However if a person of faith finds a picture of their god in a tree or whatever and it does something for them that they hadn't been able to before, is that a miracle or is it just their faith?

There has been a healthy trade in holy "relics" since the middle ages at least - pieces of the True Cross, the titulus, St Andrew's left toenail.

I've always thought there was an undercurrent of idolatry in the Catholic faith which was expunged from the version of Christianity under which I was raised, so again I don't find that be a recent phenomenon. I think that probably dates back to the adoption of Christianity by the Romans and their interpretation of it.

The issue I have with a lot of Jesus-shaped-cornflakes is they tend to show the Western-accepted face of Jesus as a long-haired fresh-faced hippy rather than the swarthy thick-set countenance of a man used to physical labour in a hot climate.

Here in Florida, a man saw Jesus in the woodgrain of his door, he took it off the hinges, a radio station put it in a winebago and they travelled around the state with the "Jesus door" to show it to people.

If Jesus wasn't annoyed with us before...he is now...

No, I don't believe any of them. It's all clutching at straws to keep people interested in religion, here in England, religion is pretty much none existant now...

Rk-

Not to get off topic, but where i am in England, religon is very much still exsistent, there are a lot more religons here now from say 50 years ago.

religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religous man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."

Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle."

With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter."



There are signs everywhere... the old lady asking for a quarter reminds us that we could be destitute tomorrow, the sickly remind us that we also could be sickly, the elderly remind us that all will someday meet our mortality, the uncouth remind us of our own indescretions.

How is one to say that this is a blatant sign... when there are so many other blatant signs which we blatantly ignore.

these are just money scam, Imean I respect other religions, and I am sure that Jesus would not go and place his face in a pan or in cheeze...and that Mary has better things to do then smash her face in the grill cheese...this is somehow I think wrong of people to claim such a thing and hightly disrespecting the religion and its beleivers.

I think that if and this is a bit if there was such a thing...selling them would be sacriledge and blasphemy.

I do not approve of such sales...it is wrong.

I think that if these things are real or not people will just believe what they need to believe. It's a simple as that.

I think a lot of them are money making scemes. The sad thing is that when the real thing does appear no one believes in it. It isnt just the Jesus thing it is in all things, ghost, aliens and Big Foot the list goes on and on.

People want to believe but it is hard when others pull hoaxs just to get money.

Yeah I think it is ppl play on others beliefs and wishes. There is always someone out there willing to pay a hugh price for any evidence leading to the truth that something is real.

It is the people that try and fake things to prove something that makes it hard for everyone to believe things are real. There are more fake evidence out there then real evidence and because the fake makes the news more then not the truth never comes out.

Last summer, a couple towns away from mine, a person claimed that the face of the virgin mary was on this garage door. Now this being very random was thought to be sort of crazy. Even the local newspaper got involved and published pictures that ended up on the front page. More and more people came to see and eventually it'd become a shrine. Each and every day from sun up to sun down there the image was. It lasted about three weeks and just as it came it disappeared.
The beauty of all this was not the image but what happened along the way. This town was very divided becuase of such things as race, age and beliefs. But once this all occured everyone seemed to have forgotten about their differences and came together and that to me is Beautiful.

TaurusChick -


Who's to say they're all fake?

I would have to agree that most are just money-making because no one sees it until they are told that it's there...then all of a sudden...oh look...it a head of whatever!!!...though I also feel they there may be genuine ones in there with like every 100th or 1000th of a fake.

I would have to say it's alot of spin to see who'll be the sucker to bid 28,000 on a grilled cheese sandwich and in essence, it'd be worth concocting. Not that I agree with spreading bull around to lure the money of believers cause I don't, simply playing devils advocate. Truth be told, if one opens their eyes and mind wide enough, one can see anything they truly want to see, and perhaps things they'd much rather not. Just as we see things in our dreams noone else can see, those visions, rather they be of the Lord himself, are what our mind allows us to see. I believe in essence, these visions are believable on an individual basis, because when one believes he may see more infact then he has any right to see. I could see a blue sky filled with puffy white clouds and someone else could see a blue sea swarming with angels.
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To find everything profound - that is an inconvenient trait. It makes one strain one's eyes all the time, and in the end one finds more than one might have wished. ----Friedrich Nietzsche

Or miss the lack of sense made ... ;]

every one wants such astonishing signs.. affirimations as big as day.. they want to open a road side attraction and put their deity on display. yet when something so subtle happens they are likely to miss it .. in the glare of their artificial "illuminations"

Hey, what happened to my anything's possible comment? Man, I went deep for that one.

Okay, maybe you'll like this better: "(god's) temple can be established anywhere. Because, finally, the All is everywhere, and anywhere may become the seat of power. Any blade of grass may assume, in myth, the figure of the savior and conduct the questing wanderer into the sanctum sanctorum of his own heart."

Joseph Campbell, The Hero With a Thousand FAces, 1949.

Stabb,

"So the consensus seems to be that we don't believe in miracles, nor would we pay good money for one that probably isn't, but by the same token, ghosts, UFO's, demons and a host of other supernatural phenomena are often easily accepted as 'real'."

Good point, and I agree that it's almost shameful that we would want to abandon hope. However, I would leave out UFO's (and maybe even ghosts) because there can be, and has been, concrete imperical evidence to suggest their exisitence. Notice I said suggest.

Wolfsbohne,

I see you point, but at the same time, those ideas (ghosts and UFO), have as many detractors as do miracles.

Central to any of these phenomena, is the willingness of those who want to believe, to actually do so with honesty in themselves.

A result of this, is the implication of that reality, where enough do begin to accept it is a truth, thus shaping how society views itself.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.