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Does discussion require belief?

I'm sure there are many of us who have a fascination with the supernatural world or mythological beasts who may not necessarily feel we have the personal proof to support a faith in their assured existence. That's a bit long winded I guess but my point is simply that I don't feel that in order to be fascinated and enamored with mythology, we also have to believe that it actually happened.

There are many important archetypes that we can learn from in their portrayal in myth and legend and the imagination is a power that often dwarfs reality. I find that being transported to another time and place through myth is a great escape and a wonderful tool for teaching.

There are those who would likely insist that trying to discover the truth behind the past or the supernatural is to be a wet blanket on those who enjoy a belief in the real world existence of something. I do believe that there is something to be gained from both perspectives but also feel that debate and questioning things is what helps us to grow and mature as both individuals and as a society.

So my question is this:

Do you think that it's necessary to believe in a mythological or supernatural being in order to appreciate it and discuss it?

No I don't think you have to believe in it to discuss it I believe you have to be well informed. I believe in it I don't need proof to believe I have faith.

Great question.

I personaly would say not entirly. I think that a person with no belief could be very helpful in dicussing the merits of an idea based upon their perception. I do think that it would be hard for them to have a deeped understanding of what you might belive.

I agree that a lack of faith can make understanding a belief confusing or at least difficult to feel the depth of emotional connection that one may have to their belief. It's a reason that I'd like to think debate is best approached with as much respect and deference that should be accorded to a faith or belief. It doesn't mean turning a blind eye to lively discussion, but a general respect for feelings and polite discourse.

I think you'd have to believe yes....I dont think personally I'd look into something so much I didnt believe even existed

Of course you do not have to believe. A curious intellect can discuss a subject without belief. However, on the otherhand, some of the topics on these threads bogle the mind at times

Felix,

Not at all, but I would have to see that if someone speaks from the first person perspective, from experience, then they ought to really believe their own words, otherwise, it's the worst kind of lie.

I don't belive in a lot of things, but I like to discuss them, even if its from the point of view of a disbeliever. lol

Of course not, just because people do not beleive it doesint make it any less interesting,
discussion requires if anything interest and knowledge on the subject.

laathswei,

So, if someone has no knowledge, nor interest, then they should keep quiet, in your opinion?

To me it really depends on the topic...Say if it's religion, which I'm an Atheist, I still really enjoy discussing it

Absolutely not. For example I dont believe in the greek gods but I really enjoy learning and discussing the myths about them. I could give you many similar examples but I think you get the point.

I don't think that belief is necessarily a prerequisite, but an open mind definitely is. If you come to a topic with a closed mind, you won't be inspired by any argument and as a result there's not much of a discussion.

I don’t believe you have to have a firm belief in something to discuss it intelligently.
Respect and open-mindedness are much more important in that type discussion than belief. Sometimes I think trying to explain why I believe a certain way becomes clearer to me when I do try to explain it to a non-believer. I think it's a good way to stimulate the desire to learn new things, so different from a dry book or classroom.

I don't believe in God but that doesn't stop me from discussing Christianity and other religions. Indeed it's an important contributor to any argument - the one who stands outside

Nightgame: I couldnt agree more. Open mindedness is the key to greater knowledge and removing presuppositions about either a person or their ideas will aid in rational debate.

Belief is irrelevant for a discussion. In fact it might even prove a hindrance.
Ever tried discussing something with a zealot? Sorry, rather dumb question here :-)

The thing most missing is semantics. Clear definitions of the meaning and limit of meaning connected to a term used in the discussion. Especially the use of termini while at the same time shifting their semantic content to validate one's one argument, is what can make any discussion obsolete.

But belief. No. Only gets in the way...

If I only discussed that which I believe in, I would have very few discussions!

I am a skeptic by nature yet I try to maintain an open mind. I feel that non-believers with some knowledge of a subject can add a healthy dose of reality and grounding to a discussion.

This is true even in the instances where I am the "believer" and another is the skeptic. Another point of view from someone who's opinion is not constrained by a certain belief system can help to broaded a discussion.

Not at all. Say your friend believes in God and you don't. You can still appreciate and respect their opinion without believing it yourself. It's the same way here.

No. Learning something on a new subject is an honorable pursuit. Voicing opinions is an opening to discussion

I think that if no one in the discussion believes in what they are talking about then the discussion is a lot less rich and deep. I believe that an open mind is essential but it isn't necessary to believe it to be real. I just think that having a mixture of believers and non-believers makes the conversation just that much more interesting.

I agree with Trivia. But only to the point that if you are going to openly converstate, maybe you should have some background knowledge to do so with. I find myself arguing subjects that are not understood by the person opposing them. So.. I guess it would depend on the topic...

Mythology of all sorts hold significance to many people. I love all types. I don't necessarily believe that they exist, but I enjoy believing in my own mind that they do! Belief doesn't necessary have to mean real. You can believe in make believe just for fun! There is nothing wrong in wrapping your self in a good mythology book, and believing you are there, and the whole thing is real! All believe requires is an open mind, and a young inner heart!

I don't think discussion requires belief. It is through discussing something that we learn more about it. Like others have already said an non-believer brings a different point of view to the discussions and might help the believers see what they believe in another way. If your are discussing something that you believe in the non-believer will challenge your beliefs. if you don't know answer to respond to their challenge it will cause you to research the issue to find the answer and there by strengthening your belief once you do find the answer or proving your belief to be wrong. If everyone in a discussion was a believer what you learn may not go as deep as if someone challenges those beliefs. One good example of this that I can think of is when people thought the world was flat well if no one had challenged those ideas we may still think the world is flat.

I hear a lot of people saying things and certain beings did not happen and that they are only myths with no supporting evidence. What is surprising, though, is the simple fact that all cultures from around the world and from the beginning of time since those cultures started recording things in writing is the fact that they all have the same mythological beasts, beings, and things that have happened. What does that say to you? Carpe Noctem

It only requires knowledge and interest on the subject.

I definitely don't belive that's true. As long as you know a lot about the subject and are interested in it, you are "qualified" to appreciate and discuss it. For me, I start to form an opinion on almost everything once I study it in depth, so they go hand in hand for me.
But, for example, Nietzsche, hardly ever, if at all, addressed his own beliefs. He challenged most of the social and cultural values of his society without ever pinning down his own personal beliefs.

I think it is better to believe in what you are discussing because that make for a better conversation when ppl believe in the samethings they can sit down and have different pros and con with things of this nature as with the nonbeliever they dont understand your point an d are not able to give the feed back you want

You don't have to believe in the topic of discussion, but you have to have an open mind!

I dont think that you have to believe in what everyone is talkin about. You just have to be open minded and sometimes have information.

I don't think you have to believe in something to discuss it. Discussion is one form of learning more about a subject of interest...that's not saying you believe in the subject that is being discussed.

One of humanities greatest assets is his curiosity. It is also the biggest causing factors in their death.....my favorite saying Curiosity killed the human not the cat!

a discussion is not only or purely base ona beleif it can also be base on a statement or a logical point to a situation or an event, therefore even if one does not beleive in supernatural well the person can still discuss about it, and sometimes those person are usualy the ones who can hightlight some info that the ones who beleive did not notice.

I don't think you need to have a belief in order to discuss a subject...more of a stand really...the belief part is a plus...

I don't believe so. I think a person must have a desire, at least, to know more about something.

no it doesn't how can you believe in anything if first you don't discuss it?

no i dont think so, all u need is an open mind and take things on their merit

Oooh, Good one Felix!

Proof Denies Faith.

If you have evidence of the existance of God, Faith is no longer required.

But to believe, and have faith, without proof, that is the definition of true faith.

I have an analytical mind, but I have little or no proof form my beliefs, but that is what makes arguing those beliefs such fun!

As for the need to believe to discuss, if you needed to believe, you would not be able to counter argue! I have infact found it a possitive excercise to argue from the side to do not actually agree with (oftern just to be contrary!) but I have found this gave me insight I would not have had.

On a side note myths have always been used to teach, myths and legends as engaging tales are an easy way to hold a mirror up to life, and to get a message across in a way which is easily remembered.

i dont thik it's belief thats needed i think the only things needed are interest and information and to be willing to listen to and consider the view of others.

I think this is a fantastic question felix felix.

I feel you don't have to believe in something for it to be real or not worth discussion. For in knowledge you discover and learn new things. And also I think belief is a good 98% trust in something you can't necessarily can touch or see with your own eyes. Keeping an open mind is important in life, because if you go around with a closed mind you miss something along the way!

Having an open mind is key, but you must havesome sort of knowledge when it comes to discusions

I believe that if you can believe in a mythical creature...or spirits or vampires that you have an open mind and you are open to listen to other people's views with objectivity. Those that say that there is absolutely no aliens, or spirits are too close minded to be bothered with I think.

Well in some way you have to believe in the thing you are discussing and have an opinion of your own.

not nessacerily...if you believe in your opinion then good but dont say something if you dont believe it...!

Well i dont think that belief is nesscessary in order to discuss something. I know a few ppl that have an amazing knowledge of supernatural things based on studies that they did however thought it all well their term.. hogwash. But i did look into the things that they had said and found the same info. So although belief may make you discussing a topic reveal more passionate answers where as a non beliver may have knowledgful answers however not really vioce them in an excitable manner

nah man, i'm a non-believer of the whole christianity or anything with god, but i still refer to him when i'm trying to make a point to believers

i think an open mind is definetly required. curiousity helps.

My responce to this is, absolutly not !

Sometimes we are here to learn as well. And in the end , I end up learning more about "People", and how active their imaginations can actually be! :)

definately not, there are certain things i don't believe in but i can have a very intellectual conversation about the topics, or i can learn things from other people, or i can have the chance to share what it is that i do actually believe in and why i don't believe in other things

Excellent post Felix! I agree that you don't have to believe in something in order to be interested, or to discuss it. Thats part of what makes the world go "round!

Is belief required? No, not really. An interest is necessary, otherwise there are simple "nah, that can't be" responces that aren't very interesting to read.

Is foreknowledge required? Not necessarily. As long as one can acknoledge the fact that they don't really know much on a subject and comment on the disscussion before them, they can still add to the discussion as a whole.

For instance.. I do not think Batman exists. Batman is a fictional character in which a rich man tries to fight the injustices around him; however, I DO believe that people enjoy the Batman ideal and will try to live up to similar standards.

Now I know this started with mythical creatures... but the 60 year old comic book character is similar to myth these days.

A character cannot survive that long if there isn't something the public embraces from it.

Discussion w/o the presence of beliefs is all the better because it leads to an open ended conversation free of bias comments

Skylla......most awesome post!!!!!

I dont think you have to believe in it as long as you know what you are talking about and can back up what you say.

I think everyone should be allowed to give their opinions on a topic of conversation, whether that opinion be based in belief or skepticism.

Opinions are neither right nor wrong, and anyone with an opinion should be able to partake of a discussion.

In my opinion belief doesn't change anything about discussing.. No matter what the subject; unless of course those who don't believe are simply not comfortable with discussing said subject. But that itself is and should always be up to the individual.

I dont think it really depends if you beileve or not to have discussion

At the same time, there are those who will tell you that you are wrong and don't know what you are talking about simply because your beliefs differ from theirs.

Ain't diversity grand?

To appreciate it, yes. To discuss it, no. But you DO have to have some knowledge on what you are talking about to be able to discuss. Or debate it. Maybe I'm confusing discussion with debating. What do you mean by discuss? Just talking about how cool they are/would be/ or were? Or about maybe there being some factual basis to their existence?

Agreed. If the subject includes the possibiliy of whatever the subject is; being fact. You do have to believe to some extent for your conversation/debate to make any sense or go anywhere other than in circles.

There is a flaw in your thinking.
That is: that belief is not belief at all without action; it is only thought.

If we are our bodies AND what we think; then does thinking about the occult make us such? I prefer to believe that you are not unless you have taken action: just as you are not a pro football player unless you are regularily payed for playing; nor do you believe in god unless you regularily attempt to follow gods laws e&.
This does not, obviously, settle the issue of quality; you may not be a good ball player, christian, goth, wiccan, et al; so long as you continue to progress you may say that you believe.

I think its wise to be knowlegable about your subject, but you don't necessarily have to believe in something to discuss it. Both view points stimulate and add sparkle to debate :)

Although well said, what were you talking about? the question is does discussion require belief. So i can discuss vampires, although i do not believe they have existed because I've done research. If i have NEVER researched vampires, I have no reason discussing or debating the idea of vampire. what are YOU talking about?

Now I'm confused.. What are you talking about, person? He stated it perfectly. I think this topic should be closed and considered well answered.

To research something thoroughly, I think yes, you'd have to think that you atleast think it could possible.

discussion requires an intelligent knowledge of the facts as they are presented...it does not by necessity require a belife in those facts-or an adherence to those facts .

I believe a disbelief in something might actually add to the discussion.. this would lower any susceptibly to any crack theories.

Nay, there are many things i find interesting and study, but I do not practice .To cease to learn or be interested in life..is to die.

Deffinately not. I can appreciate an ddiscuss many fascinating mythological and ficticious beings as they may have been or may have appeared. Maybe as a child I should have gotten into Dungeon and Dragons, LOL. But anything and everything can be interesting to a point.

I think one should believe in what one is talking about be passionate about a subject you don't have to believe in something to be passionate about it.

I don't believe it is necessary to believe simply because if someone DOESN'T believe any supernatural or mythological beings ever existed, they could still discuss their reasons as to why they believe they never existed.

I do not believe that it requires belief to comment on sucha matter....I would suggest that you have a certain measure of knowledge about the topic though, before engaging in discussion, so you can bring more into clarity, your thoughts and opinions of the matter.

I dont think you neccessarily need to believe in something as your own personal dogma, but you do have to believe that the others point of view, beliefs, or mythology are valid and legitimate

"Do you think that it's necessary to believe in a mythological or supernatural being in order to appreciate it and discuss it?"

I do not think that rational discussion of any topic, even myth or super/preternatural in nature, requires explicit belief in same.

I hold the opinion that it only requires a "suspension of disbelief," in addition to a willingness to hear disparate viewpoints.

The answer would be no...

You dont have to believe in something to have knowledge about it or even have an opinion about it for that matter..

I dont think you have to believe in order to discuss, you will have to know alittle about what you are discussing but you dont have to believe in it, i think it might help to discuss with someone who dont believe then you might get to see things from another point of view after.

i dont think u have to believe in anything in order to appreciate it. there are many writers out there who cant really get their points across, but that doesnt mean they dont use good metaphors or have a great style.

anything and everything can be discussed with or without belief in it. its about learning and opening ur mind. but when u do have beliefs in what ur discussing, it can become very heated lol.

I have to agree with many posts here. No you do not.

However I disagree that debate is bad. Debate in its truest form is counter pointing, which can be done in a discussion and often is.

Arguing, well that implies emotions and leave the realm of conversations.

Back to discussions. Some have mentioned the myths and other tools such as metaphors as a means of learning. While others have been close to using the "L" word: Learning, about discussion.

Suspend your disbelief for a moment, play devils advocate, you might learn something. Only when we attempt to "own" another’s belief do we have any idea as to what that person feels, sees. It is very similar to teachers having students teach each other. By stepping out of the role of student, they approach the subject matter differently and then walk away with more.

Knowledge is not comprehension.

Knowledge is understanding.

Once a person knows the difference between those two words then they will understand fully that discussion never requires belief.

very well put liebe

Its a great thread, I wish I had found it before.

Like most on here, the short answer is that you not need belief in order to discuss anything.

I belong to a formal debating club. In that we are given subjects to argue for and against, we don't chose them, we can actually end up debating to prove a standpoint that is opposite to our own beliefs.

Belief does help though.

To me someone can have interest in a subject, with interest comes research and learning - sorting out the truth from the untruth and placing it, in your own mind, in a way that you can understand and communicate.

With interest and understanding can also come belief (or you may, by that time, know you don't believe or, at least, know why you shouldn't believe)

With interest and understanding / belief then must come the ability to discuss and put over your point in a very clear and easy-to-understand way.

However, blind belief, where someone believes but without the interest or understanding, is an absolute pain. These people may have trouble forming their ideas into a way that others might understand. Because they have never bothered to sort out their own train of thought on the subject, they can be swayed by anything that simply looks right but might have no basis in fact.

It also helps if you consider what you mean by belief. I am interested in vampire mythology. Do I believe that the actual critters existed ? - no. Do I believe that the myths themselves existed, were real stories and other people believed in them? - yes.

My point is, if it was me, to whom you were refering: is that most people that say they believe in something; do not in fact believe at all, they only have explored the intellectual option and expressed it as a valid theory.

Belief is a verb... visualizing that you are running is not the same as running. Ther e must be action appended to thought in order for it to be belief.

Therefore, it is obvious, that one not believe in something in order to debate an issue; because there are many people with conviction and passion about a subject and yet do not believe... we tend to call them hypocrites or poseurs.

No I don't think it is necessary to have a belief in something to discuss it and probably viably but...on the other hand you must also leave it out of the realm of myth too because then you have put a belief into the mix. To make it a neutral balance for discussion it should just be discussed without entering belief into it on any level, pro or con. I would say that should be prefaced in the discussion ahead of time that belief either way is not relevant in the discussion. You would need to state this because invariably and I have seen it here, people will start with either I believe or I don't believe. That's my opinion.

Great question, as always.

No I don't think that belief is needed to appreciate many things including the supernatural or mythical. I know I'm only speaking for myself. I do know some who have to have everything "nailed down" in order have an appreciation for most anything, but I accept those whose views are closed minded in my opinion.

I don't think it does require belief at all and find that more skeptics are the ones discussing these things I think more out of a curiosity as to whether these things are real or not and finding out why other do believe.

I do not think you would have to believe in such a thing to hold a good discussion about it. It usually makes for a better discussion if everyone involved does not see things the same. Whether you believe or not, you can bring up points and objections to things that will make the discussion grow and will also draw more people in to add their opinion.

An intelligent conversation should never REQUIRE belief. There's a good handful of people on Vampire Rave that can speak extensively about topics they do not necessarily buy into. They educate themselves so they can have that 'intelligent' exchange. A good conversation is had when you are speaking with someone who is informed.

i dont think u have to believe in the topic of disscusion u just need to be open minded

I say no that discussion does not require belief and I would further say that if you have a discussion with someone of an apposing or different belief than you’ll have greater potential of having a much more valuable discussion.

Also I feel that it’s more important to have understanding or the potential for understanding in order to have a discussion.

I dont think it is necessary that you believe 100% in something to want to talk about it or just wish it was true. Alot of greek mythology is very fascinating and I love to learn and talk about it. That doesn't mean I actually believe most of its true

you do not necessarily have to believe in something to discuss it but having an open mind about the subject and willingness to listen and learn would be helpful i would think

"discussion requires an intelligent knowledge of the facts as they are presented...it does not by necessity require a belife in those facts-or an adherence to those facts ." redqueen

I think she said it quite well. But I also believe that you have to have a belief in the stance you have of those facts you are either defending or opposing.

I don't think you have to. I hear a lot about christians and know a lot about them. I argue with some of my friends about Jesus and everything in the bible because I have actually read it...And I think it's honestly a bunch of bull shit but....People can have their own opinions.

LithiumInVein you would be wise to read the FAQ's of the forum. Please do not put down any belief system as that is a big no-no in the forums, and could ruin this discussion for others.

Perhaps state you belief in future, "I have friends that I think are full of it, but they believe." That way no one group of believers is insulted. Remember there are many different religions here and all need to be respected.

Sorry I kinda get carried away when I rant..I'll try to keep that down

Just to add that a great belief can actually stop discussion, I see this quite often in these forums.

To belief with a passion often stops people listening to views that may go against their long standing a deep seated beliefs.

As soon as anyone stops listening, the discussion becomes pointless.

I have had many discussions on here where I have started with one point of view, but 'listening' to what others have to say, with no real belief to get in the way, I have actually been able to to change my mind.

Most recently, discussing Dracula, I was quoting my usual the translation for the romanian 'dracula' means devil - not dragon. My argument was sound in fact. I then listened to what two members had to say, that made me look at a different angle altogether, ask a question and research some more - While my original statement was correct, my thinking was wrong (its latin not romanian). Had I had a deep seated belief in the subject, I would not have been open to the alternative ideas ... and my belief would have stopped me learning.

Artemka you point is so true. If our minds have closed to there being another possibilty then there is no room for discussion.

It is only in that area where we can suspend even our belief that we are open to hear exactly what someone else is saying. It makes me think that it's more the idea of empathy. The more with empathize with a point, even if we disagree, the more we can learn from it.

Nah, I think that anyone can discuss anything, but they should keep an open mind to things they don't believe in. Them more than those who do believe. I know of a lot of people who simply dismiss some really cool things because they don't think it's possible. People never thought that we would stand on the moon, or fly. It's always the things we don't believe in that seem to come back to us.

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